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[ElFly]

But then, if they balanced the season 1 characters too early, it might have been too reactionary and the characters could be over-buffed/nerfed before their capabilities are really understood. Guile was dismissed as being crap early in season 1, and wasn't really seen as viable until later on. Conversely, Urien was seen as viable from the get-go, but was only around for 3 months before getting some crazy buffs in season 2.

There probably isn't a solution that doesn't come with some drawbacks.

I agree that there's no good solution, but at least in S1 it was quickly agreed (with "quickly" = inside a couple of months) that the newcomers weren't up to snuff mostly

buffing them _a_little_ earlier in 2016 wouldn't have been too bad cause they still would have had the S2 patch to adjust them back; instead they were all drastically buffed/nerfed now and I am not sure where that left them. it was way more drastic than it could have been

imho a few small patches would be better than waiting a year for another 92 pages of adjustments

 

[Bizazedo]

How's that Season 2 Bison?

Spoiler

LOL

I am betting mid tier at the moment. So, better?

It really doesn't pay to overly rush down with him, though. Have to pick your moments.

 

[Producer]

we got some armchair balancing up in here

 

[Secret Character]

Ryu jab DP all day. Forgot about those.

Still would rather have that than this.

How could you forget about the magical "YOMI" moment? lol

 

[Omnistalgic]

This I'm getting to the point where i don't feel like playing SFV a lot recently and Capcom is not helping with their updates but i can't complain since i probably have over 150 hours of gameplay but i guess I'm ready to move to the next Fighting game once Tekken 7 is here.

Yeah, I thought this balance was pretty much a refresh, guess I'll just have to wait a bit longer. I want multiple-V-triggers, 2 supers, turbo 1 & 2 options, etc...Too little time to game these days I guess.

 

[ElFly]

you obviously have no idea of what git gud implies if you've reached that conclusion. A deep DP on an airborne opponent is timing it correctly. What are you talking about?

it _was_ the correct timing because back then DPs had weird properties that allowed them to do waaay more than just AA peeps out of the sky

now they have been adjusted to what they should do (just AA, and a combo tool) instead of an instant meterless reversal, so you need to adjust your timing accordingly. they cannot be invincible at the start cause then they become too powerful in other, non AA situations

tl;dr deep DPs were a thing because DPs were wrongly designed before

 

[Bizazedo]

I also have a (pet) theory that a lot of people hate on SF V because they're losing more than they expected.

Lack of a lot of option selects, no more invincible DP's w/o meter, etc. Over the years I've come to believe a lot of the FGC loves their cheesy shit and SF V isn't really dissuading me.

The amount of people who defend infinites in Marvel has always disgusted me as a quick example.

 

[direct_quote]

I also have a (pet) theory that a lot of people hate on SF V because they're losing more than they expected.

Lack of a lot of option selects, no more invincible DP's w/o meter, etc. Over the years I've come to believe a lot of the FGC loves their cheesy shit and SF V isn't really dissuading me.

The amount of people who defend infinites in Marvel has always disgusted me as a quick example.

Just feels like there are less options in general (both defensive and combo wise), so each game feels like it plays the same way.

 

[Edzi]

Y'all talking about moving on to the next fighting game better actually do it. Not here, but other places were talking about supporting KOF hardcore and that shit is floundering compared to the mess people were spouting on my Twitter. "Oh dude I'm gonna get so good at the game oh dude."

Those people dropped that shit so hard. KOF deserves a lot more respect and play time. Hopefully 2017.

But honestly people should play more than one fighter as much as possible and venture out from the Capcom bubble. Even if its Marvel, I just want more people playing fighting games or continuing to do so, even if it's not my favorites like SFV or Gundam.

It'd help you in general from a perspective standpoint as well. Every fighter has its problems, and I feel like SFV got a lot of under-the-microscope picking because it was well over the most played fighter last year. I can tell you right now that Gundam has some real goofy shit that'd make SFV's goofy shit look tame. And that's just the way fighting games are, really.

The problem is that there's nothing else out there like SF. I always try to get into whatever new FG comes out, but I end up gravitating back to the way SF plays.

 

[Bizazedo]

Just feels like there are less options in general (both defensive and combo wise), so each game feels like it plays the same way.

Agreed somewhat. I think a lot of the fans want longer, harder combos to illustrate a disparity in skill between players....but the "playing out the same way" reasoning I find flawed since once you hit the skill ceiling of any fighting game, they play out the same way.

As for defensive options, technically less as less invincible DP's, etc., but what else besides that compared to say IV?

 

[Omnistalgic]

it _was_ the correct timing because back then DPs had weird properties that allowed them to do waaay more than just AA peeps out of the sky

now they have been adjusted to what they should do (just AA, and a combo tool) instead of an instant meterless reversal, so you need to adjust your timing accordingly. they cannot be invincible at the start cause then they become too powerful in other, non AA situations

tl;dr deep DPs were a thing because DPs were wrongly designed before

Ok...yeah, I saw your further posts, still disagree man. I've heard people complaining about Ken's derpy air tatsu, a lot of stuff from Chun, Mika's clap, etc...I don't think DP'ing being really good in all those areas is a design flaw at all. The trade off for guessing wrong is more than made up for with how much health you lose on the way down.

Regardless, it doesn't even happen that often, so it's not that big of a deal. They are still fairly reliable AA, that's really not my main gripe at all with the update for S2. Just don't like most of the changes so far and feel like every character doesn't feel as polished as Guile or Chun. And the game feels slower too.

 

[Whales]

I cant be the only one who hates using DPs to AA now

I get hit out of my DP almost every single time, and considering akumas shit health it's never a trade in my favor because they get hit by 1 hit of the dp, which deals like 20dmg, and I get hit by their j.hk...

 

[Bizazedo]

I cant be the only one who hates using DPs to AA now

I get hit out of my DP almost every single time, and considering akumas shit health it's never a trade in my favor because they get hit by 1 hit of the dp, which deals like 20dmg, and I get hit by their j.hk...

Akuma doesn't have an anti air normal AA?

[edit]

Yeah, Edzi's post below. He has better AA options .

 

[TheSpoiler]

I also have a (pet) theory that a lot of people hate on SF V because they're losing more than they expected.

Lack of a lot of option selects, no more invincible DP's w/o meter, etc. Over the years I've come to believe a lot of the FGC loves their cheesy shit and SF V isn't really dissuading me.

The amount of people who defend infinites in Marvel has always disgusted me as a quick example.

People want to feel safe in a fighting game. For years, fighters have trained people to rely on quick ways of getting out of things and it was more about fighting with the system than fighting the person. Like, it's added pressure to think, "what is he going to do". That's always been a thing, but in this generation of fighters, it feels like it is more so.

That goes for a lot of other fighting games in general. If you think this shit is just SFV, just wait. I'm not knowledgeable about KOF, but I know some of my friends were real upset at the fact that the new one has less bullshit and carries the "worry about your opponent more than the system" mentality that SFV carries, just on a somewhat different path. Tekken feels like that as well after the bound shit got nerfed.

Just feels like there are less options in general (both defensive and combo wise), so each game feels like it plays the same way.

Kind of. Combo wise, it's less than SF4, but that game played out the same way because there were more optimal ways to play a character rather than having your own "style". S2 is at least fixing a big problem with this by adding better usage of v-skills, juggle states, and being able to react to mediums better.

Like if I have to see the same fucking E. Ryu combos one more time...

The problem is that there's nothing else out there like SF. I always try to get into whatever new FG comes out, but I end up gravitating back to the way SF plays.

I can see that. Before, we had a bunch of a variants on SF, and some clones, and such so you could play things that weren't Tekken, SC, Gundam, etc. Now, everything is pretty segmented off and defined, which is good and bad.

 

[Edzi]

I cant be the only one who hates using DPs to AA now

I get hit out of my DP almost every single time, and considering akumas shit health it's never a trade in my favor because they get hit by 1 hit of the dp, which deals like 20dmg, and I get hit by their j.hk...

Akuma's b.HP into fireball does more damage anyway and has a great hitbox.

 

[KhalilSyncere]

Y'all talking about moving on to the next fighting game better actually do it. Not here, but other places were talking about supporting KOF hardcore and that shit is floundering compared to the mess people were spouting on my Twitter. "Oh dude I'm gonna get so good at the game oh dude."

Those people dropped that shit so hard. KOF deserves a lot more respect and play time. Hopefully 2017.

But honestly people should play more than one fighter as much as possible and venture out from the Capcom bubble. Even if its Marvel, I just want more people playing fighting games or continuing to do so, even if it's not my favorites like SFV or Gundam.

It'd help you in general from a perspective standpoint as well. Every fighter has its problems, and I feel like SFV got a lot of under-the-microscope picking because it was well over the most played fighter last year. I can tell you right now that Gundam has some real goofy shit that'd make SFV's goofy shit look tame. And that's just the way fighting games are, really.

Word. I play damn near every fighter B. Pick them up usually on day 1 and at least get somewhat adequate with 1 or 2 characters, at least, if not 4-5. I just love fighters and wish more folks played it than the niche level crowd that does. The main reasons why a lot of my fighters end up falling to the wayside is just due to lack of other willing, long-lasting opponents.

 

[SolarPowered]

Yeah, Guile feels pretty perfect now, and maybe the best representation of Combofiend's mission statement about maximizing what makes the characters unique. He lost some stuff, but it was mostly things that felt very un-Guile (like frame trap 50/50 Crush Counter setups) and the things that make him Guile were emphasized, like Upside Down Kick being awesome and his AA tools being improved, especially air throw.

There's no fluff in his moves etc. Everything has an identifiable purpose, and anot appropriate level of risk and reward for what the character is designed to do. I could see Boom damage being nerfed back to 50 and Knee Bazooka being nerfed to -4 or -5 on block, but hopefully he doesn't change much in future versions.

I think Capcom should look at the mentality behind how Guile was balanced, and how those changes were received, as a reference for what to do for all characters in future seasons.

Karin and Cammy have been doing that since vanilla SFV's release.

It's impossible to balance all characters....

....that being said, if some were even or top tier, the game would not be fun for a lot of people. It would not surprise me at all if they have in mind to never make Zangief or Fang top tier.

Mika was probably a mistake. We'll see how Laura goes .

Vsav and Skullgirls do a pretty good job and they're from entirely different eras to boot.

 

[Bizazedo]

People want to feel safe in a fighting game. For years, fighters have trained people to rely on quick ways of getting out of things and it was more about fighting with the system than fighting the person. Like, it's added pressure to think, "what is he going to do". That's always been a thing, but in this generation of fighters, it feels like it is more so.

That goes for a lot of other fighting games in general. If you think this shit is just SFV, just wait. I'm not knowledgeable about KOF, but I know some of my friends were real upset at the fact that the new one has less bullshit and carries the "worry about your opponent more than the system" mentality that SFV carries, just on a somewhat different path. Tekken feels like that as well after the bound shit got nerfed.

Basically, yes. A change I'm ALL FOR in SF V and, it sounds like your post, in other games is that you're fighting the player.

A lot of players try to make it the system as fast as possible. Whether it's ridiculously long Marvel like combos where once you land a hit it becomes a one player game or Get Out of Jail free cards like option selects or invincible reversals, way too many people rely on it and need it in their games.

It doesn't surprise me at all at some of the recoiling to the way the games are going. People are weak .

 

[HardRojo]

I can say with all confidence now that the nerf to Nash's cross-up MK is what bugs me the most, jabs hit him out of it cleanly, it has shitty range now and sometimes misses completely, unlike S1. Karin is probably one of Nash's hardest matchups, no way to open her up.

 

[CountBlack]

Ryu jab DP all day. Forgot about those.

Still would rather have that than this.

you'd rather invincible DP's be used as a poke in footsies and be safe in blockstrings than have them have no invincibility from frame 1-3?

 

[KingBroly]

problem is that the current model is too conservative tho; waiting until next year CPT ends for another round of changes is crazy times too

mid season patch would be best, tho I'd still think that a S2 "errata" patch should happen before that

I think a big problem is that DLC characters normally will have to wait a full year for balance, and that can render them completely useless for a year (see: S1 DLC chars, mostly outside of Guile) but also doesn't make sense to rebalance them mid year, just as they were launched

They want all balancing for the entire season. In sports, you don't change rules during the middle of the season. MAYBE you do for the Playoffs, but not before. That's probably what their thinking is, even though characters change the rules more than anything.

I wish they'd balance the game about...3 weeks before the first CPT event.

 

[JayEH]

The problem is that there's nothing else out there like SF. I always try to get into whatever new FG comes out, but I end up gravitating back to the way SF plays.

I am the same. I like the more "grounded" approach of SF. Hopefully we get a new Garou from SNK or something because everything out right now is like anime or 3D fighters... I'll definitely be picking up marvel though and will try to get good at it. Tekken is also a good button masher so I'm looking forward to that too.

 

[Onemic]

you'd rather invincible DP's be used as a poke in footsies and be safe in blockstrings than have them have no invincibility from frame 1-3?

And have a tight buffer and strict inputs over what we have now? Yes.

I never had a problem with DP's in ST tbh. Of course, with the way SFV works, it wouldnt be a clean transition, but as a general concept, I 100% like ST's way of handling DP's vs SF4 or SF5.

 

[jett]

I welcome more patches before CPT. Hell, I welcome them during CPT, I don't care.

Make Mika Great Again

 

[Omnistalgic]

Other fighting games are nothing like SF, I tried Tekken, Blaze Blue, KOF, nothing plays like SF except VF, and that's on a 10 year hiatus. Deep, simple, mechanics, but just look at the high level play of VF5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e38C0hBuYng&index=47&list=FLfV3AJXJRuiq0xSxtZosukA

Street Fighter & Virtua Fighter are the pinnacle of fighting games IMO with a strong nod to Smash Brothers.

SFV gameplay is sublime...I'm just a little burnt out and as was mentioned was hoping this was the big SuperSFV update instead of SFV2.0. New V-triggers, New Supers, a bit faster gameplay, and making everyone unique hopefully is on the agenda. Still will play it, just not as much.

 

[Bizazedo]

Vsav and Skullgirls do a pretty good job and they're from entirely different eras to boot.

Not familiar enough with those two to know, but do any of them have oppressive playstyles where if they were top tier, they'd be unfun?

Also, Skullgirls had a limited cast, it's almost not worth mentioning. That and the fan focus wasn't on it as much to really break it.

Street Fighter & Virtua Fighter are the pinnacle of fighting games IMO with a strong nod to Smash Brothers.

I love love love VF, but favored 2 the most. I just can't stand bound / bounce combos.

 

[CountBlack]

And have a tight buffer and strict inputs over what we have now? Yes.

I never had a problem with DP's in ST tbh.

you probably put the same amount of time into ST that you put into V tho. about a solid hour and 20 minutes give or take

 

[Edzi]

you probably put the same amount of time into ST that you put into V tho. about a solid hour and 20 minutes give or take

Ouch.

 

[JayEH]

Other fighting games are nothing like SF, I tried Tekken, Blaze Blue, KOF, nothing plays like SF except VF, and that's on a 10 year hiatus. Deep, simple, mechanics, but just look at the high level play of VF5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e38C0hBuYng&index=47&list=FLfV3AJXJRuiq0xSxtZosukA

Street Fighter & Virtua Fighter are the pinnacle of fighting games IMO with a strong nod to Smash Brothers.

I'd love to play VF but all the characters are visually unappealing IMO.

 

[ElFly]

They want all balancing for the entire season. In sports, you don't change rules during the middle of the season. MAYBE you do for the Playoffs, but not before. That's probably what their thinking is, even though characters change the rules more than anything.

I wish they'd balance the game about...3 weeks before the first CPT event.

in sports the rules do not include whether one specific team is able to score more points than the other team under certain circumstances

other e-sports do fine with more regular balance. I get that in a fighting game we sometimes need years to understand a character but we also have better tools to understand a game now

sides it is a $ thing, because the money spent on buying a S2 character pass and discover that Peter the police officer is not viable at all is not gonna leave a good taste in the consumers' mouths

I'd love to play VF but all the characters are visually unappealing IMO.

I think they have great designs, but the problem is the customization system makes those designs get lost

SFV gameplay is sublime...I'm just a little burnt out and as was mentioned was hoping this was the big SuperSFV update instead of SFV2.0. New V-triggers, New Supers, a bit faster gameplay, and making everyone unique hopefully is on the agenda. Still will play it, just not as much.

I'd love selectable V-Triggers/Skills

 

[lucebuce12]

SFV gameplay is sublime...I'm just a little burnt out and as was mentioned was hoping this was the big SuperSFV update instead of SFV2.0. New V-triggers, New Supers, a bit faster gameplay, and making everyone unique hopefully is on the agenda. Still will play it, just not as much.

It was kinda unrealistic to expect so much from the update except for the last part.

 

[Skilletor]

Akuma's b.HP into fireball does more damage anyway and has a great hitbox.

Even better is b+hp into qcf+hk, p.

Not sure of the damage, but you get oki when it hits, right where Akuma wants to be.

That's one thing I do like about S2 is the buffed AA normals.

 

[KhalilSyncere]

I'd love to play VF but all the characters are visually unappealing IMO.

Amen. VF has the most boring cast of fighting game characters ever created. They have very little personality and the ones that have any, range from corny to downright fucking shameful. And to boot, it doesn't even have any ounce of in-game story, like ever. Mostly drab backgrounds...it's just a travesty on all accounts when it comes to style. The gameplay is great, but still, you gotta have more than that.

 

[Onemic]

you probably put the same amount of time into ST that you put into V tho. about a solid hour and 20 minutes give or take

An hour and 30 minutes. Get it right bruh.

 

[Whales]

Akuma's b.HP into fireball does more damage anyway and has a great hitbox.

can you even cancel it if they hit the tip of akuma's hand?

I need to getused to using it... I use cr.hp a lot more than b.hp

 

[lucebuce12]

If SEGA does make a new Virtua Fighter, I can't help but hope that Kiryu Kazuma from the Yakuza series makes it into the story somehow.

 

[Ace Harding]

Just getting the hang of Guile and climbing my way to Ultra Bronze (at around 1200 BP right now), but I want to start messing with a second character in Casual matches. How is Chun Li? Decent for someone at my level to pick up?

 

[Bizazedo]

And just because I'm in between meetings...

In addition to my pet theory of people not liking SF V as much because it magnifies how bad they really are / not as good as they wish to be....

SF V has to be the least casual SF I've played. Lack of invincible reversals, frame traps all over the goddamn place.....you need to really know shit to be able to play above a newb level. The focus on player vs system, as Spoiler so eloquently pointed out, makes each match more stressful than any SF I can remember.

It really feels like it breaks the "easy to play, hard to master" and changes it to "hard to master".

 

[lucebuce12]

Just getting the hang of Guile and climbing my way to Ultra Bronze (at around 1200 BP right now), but I want to start messing with a second character in Casual matches. How is Chun Li? Decent for someone at my level to pick up?

There is no character in the game that's "too complex" regardless of level. Just try em all out and see if any of them click with you.

 

[Omnistalgic]

I'd love to play VF but all the characters are visually unappealing IMO.

Well akira basically looks like Ryu and Jacky is Ken lol...Once you take away the customizations they aren't so bad I don't think, either way pray for VF6, IMO it's even more rewarding at intermediate/high level play because there's more defensive options and its much easier to come back from the brink of death in 3D fighters.

I'd love selectable V-Triggers/Skills

Yup, it will go a long way to making all the characters feel unique and balanced, while adding variety with the current character lineup.

It was kinda unrealistic to expect so much from the update except for the last part.

Yup, just let the hype get to me a bit, also grown tired of playing ranked so analyzing the things I don't like a lot more now lol...Maybe it's time for a GAF room.

 

[lucebuce12]

Personally, I don't think we'll see selectable V-Triggers/Skills.

It seems like every single character was thought out and balanced in accordance with their V-Trigger/Skill

Spoiler

with the exception of FANG

so throwing that out the window and adding something completely new could easily throw off the balance.

Selectable CAs on the other hand is a legitimate possibility though.

 

[SolarPowered]

Not familiar enough with those two to know, but do any of them have oppressive playstyles where if they were top tier, they'd be unfun?

Both of them have been in the top 5 category of many tier lists on the internet, but they didn't (and still don't) have the stupid anti air jabs of the shotos, insane meterless damage output, braindead air approaches or general fuckery of other characters like Necalli or Nash (in the early days). Karin was doing the "strong, but beatable" schtick way before Guile who was already pretty strong in season 1 before he got tons of buffs for season 2. Right now I'd say that the character flying most under people's radars is Guile. Balrog, Urien and Laura are hogging all the attention, but a 2 v-trigger bar Guile with a fantastic boom game is probably going to make some people pine for the days of season 1.

Also, Skullgirls had a limited cast, it's almost not worth mentioning. That and the fan focus wasn't on it as much to really break it.

It has fourteen characters, custom team sizes and an exponential number of assist options compared to the latest entry in the series it was inspired by. The fact that almost all of the characters and tons of team combinations (and sometimes even solos) can win a grand final is absolutely a praiseworthy achievement for a game with as many characters and options. Somehow I don't believe that people would try to downplay it if it were produced by Capcom and featured all of the nostalgic hardcore favorites we've come to know and love.

Edit: Also, the game was put to the test as much as any other fighter and then some. It's been at hundreds of tournaments, several tournaments with hundreds of entrants and millions of online matches have been played. No fighter before had nearly as many transparent balance updates taking all of these variables into account. It is a very different thing than ASW's ambiguous loke testing (and subsequent sometimes nonsensical patch notes), NRS' frequent balance updates (sometimes before a major tournament lol) or Capcom's sometimes straight up trollish (Ono and Yun haha) balance updates.

 

[ElFly]

And just because I'm in between meetings...

In addition to my pet theory of people not liking SF V as much because it magnifies how bad they really are / not as good as they wish to be....

SF V has to be the least casual SF I've played. Lack of invincible reversals, frame traps all over the goddamn place.....you need to really know shit to be able to play above a newb level. The focus on player vs system, as Spoiler so eloquently pointed out, makes each match more stressful than any SF I can remember.

It really feels like it breaks the "easy to play, hard to master" and changes it to "hard to master".

I disagree; this is prolly the most casual friendly game since the alpha series

it dropped execution requirements to the minimum levels ever (um with the exception of the charge thing, and IMHO we could still do away with double movements for supers) and did away with beginner unfriendly things, like FADC, option selects, etc

the main problem is that the V-System is not fully realized. V-Skills and V-Triggers should completely change how the characters play. More people should go into a Necalli-like mode -maybe not permanent-, and V-Skills need to charge V-Trigger quickly. instead V-Trigger is another super for some people, a one pony trick for others and just a change in properties of one or two moves

but V-Skills cannot fill the bar too quickly cause everyone is guaranteed a full bar at least once if they are losing. since V-Trigger is a comeback mechanic, possiby getting two V-Triggers in a round is potentially broken (and the only one who could do it consistently, Nash, has a non-transformation V-Trigger)

IMHO the ideal system would be do away with the comeback mechanic, and have the V-Skill be high risk/high reward so it demanded commitment and changing how you play. so you could basically ignore V-Trigger and concentrate on regular play if you really want to. Instead now we have to use V-Trigger once per round if we want to be optimal. there's also the problem where Capcom may want to have a comeback mechanic anyway

Selectable CAs on the other hand is a legitimate possibility though.

someone made a good argument earlier that selectable CAs are unnecessary since all CAs do all things; they are comboable, do good damage and some even have additional properties

this is not SF3 where one CA was for combos, other was for catching people and other was to shut down certain options. they made sure the CA was good for everything and thus painted themselves into a corner

 

[Bizazedo]

Both of them have been in the top 5 category of many tier lists on the internet, but they didn't (and still don't) have the stupid anti air jabs of the shotos, insane meterless damage output, braindead air approaches or general fuckery of other characters like Necalli or Nash (in the early days). Karin was doing the "strong, but beatable" schtick way before Guile who was already pretty strong in season 1 before he got tons of buffs for season 2. Right now I'd say that the character flying most under people's radars is Guile. Balrog, Urien and Laura are hogging all the attention, but a 2 v-trigger bar Guile with a fantastic boom game is probably going to make some people pine for the days of season 1.

I'm talking / asking about Vsav / Skullgirls.

It has fourteen characters, custom team sizes and an exponential number of assist options compared to the latest entry in the series it was inspired by. The fact that almost all of the characters can win a grand final is absolutely a praiseworthy achievement for a game with as many characters and options. Somehow I don't believe that people would try to downplay it if it were produced by Capcom and featured all of the nostalgic hardcore favorites we've come to know and love.

14 now. How many at release?

How big was the playerbase once it went up? That's what I'm saying, it doesn't have the playerbase / laser focus that the other games had to break it. Marvel 3 had exponentially more people playing it than Skullgirls and it still took forever to find the infinites.

I disagree; this is prolly the most casual friendly game since the alpha series

it dropped execution requirements to the minimum levels ever (um with the exception of the charge thing, and IMHO we could still do away with double movements for supers) and did away with beginner unfriendly things, like FADC, option selects, etc

the main problem is that the V-System is not fully realized. V-Skills and V-Triggers should completely change how the characters play. More people should go into a Necalli-like mode -maybe not permanent-, and V-Skills need to charge V-Trigger quickly. instead V-Trigger is another super for some people, a one pony trick for others and just a change in properties of one or two moves

but V-Skills cannot fill the bar too quickly cause everyone is guaranteed a full bar at least once if they are losing. since V-Trigger is a comeback mechanic, possiby getting two V-Triggers is almost broken (and the only one who could do it consistently, Nash, has a non-transformation V-Trigger)

The reason I disagree with the newbie friendly thing is that to win, you need to know frame data more than ever because there are a lot less get out of free cards. You're not going to see nearly as many fluke wins in V as in IV because of that. Someone better is probably going to win a lot more. Add in crush counters and it is magnified because the newbie is going to lose so much faster.

All of that stuff being easier is great as it allows the focus to be more on the mind games of player versus player, but it's the other changes that make it harder on the newb. I am also glad you brought up comeback mechanic as I don't consider V-trigger anywhere close to Ultras as a comeback mechanic (making it even harder for newbs).

 

[Omnistalgic]

Both of them have been in the top 5 category of many tier lists on the internet, but they didn't (and still don't) have the stupid anti air jabs of the shotos, insane meterless damage output, braindead air approaches or general fuckery of other characters like Necalli or Nash (in the early days). Karin was doing the "strong, but beatable" schtick way before Guile who was already pretty strong in season 1 before he got tons of buffs for season 2. Right now I'd say that the character flying most under people's radars is Guile. Balrog, Urien and Laura are hogging all the attention, but a 2 v-trigger bar Guile with a fantastic boom game is probably going to make some people pine for the days of season 1.

lol...not to me...Guile was already hard for Ken from a play style perspective and now he's even better in all the fundamental ways!

I think Guile, Chun, Rog, might be the new top tier, with Karin, Necali, Urien right underneath. Too early to see how easy it is to adjust to Laura, Ibuki, Rashid stuff, but generally I'd say the game is still pretty balanced, likely more so...but Guile and Rog seem really strong first impression, and Chun doesn't seem to have gotten beat with the nerf bat too hard. Cammy is also kinda scary with her buttons in your face lol.

 

[mbpm1]

Gotta say, I don't really have the problems people seem to have with DPs anti-airing atm. Then again, I'm used to Juri's MK DP being weird timing so that's probably why Akuma's feels so reliable

 

[lucebuce12]

someone made a good argument earlier that selectable CAs are unnecessary since all CAs do all things; they are comboable, do good damage and some even have additional properties

this is not SF3 where one CA was for combos, other was for catching people and other was to shut down certain options. they made sure the CA was good for everything and thus painted themselves into a corner

This is true. Then I really don't know if they'll bother with adding different V-systems since that is literally reworking the character.

Hopefully they'll compensate by adding even more characters instead!!

Spoiler

They won't do that

 

[ElFly]

lol...not to me...Guile was already hard for Ken from a play style perspective and now he's even better in all the fundamental ways!

I think Guile, Chun, Rog, might be the new top tier, with Karin, Necali, Urien right underneath. Too early to see how easy it is to adjust to Laura, Ibuki, Rashid stuff, but generally I'd say the game is still pretty balanced, likely more so...but Guile and Rog seem really strong first impression, and Chun doesn't seem to have gotten beat with the nerf bat too hard. Cammy is also kinda scary with her buttons in your face lol.

I'd switch Rog with Cammy in the top tier box, and put Boxer in the underneath group. also the shotos there, tho dunno if Akuma

of course, one week and change after the patch is crazy early to say but lol

quote me in six months brah

 

[mbpm1]

Maybe people should quote nemo instead in 6 months

Nemo: "2017 will be the year of Zangief"

 

[TheSpoiler]

Word.

Really hope next year brings in more people. No fighter should die, and none of them need to "fight" each other besides trying to bring in casuals on a content level.

Basically, yes. A change I'm ALL FOR in SF V and, it sounds like your post, in other games is that you're fighting the player.

Exactly. Like I feel like those who keep saying "I'll wait for another fighting game that let's me get out of jail free" are gonna be real sad when all these other games don't have that either. Tekken, KOF, and I'd bet money that the new Gundam game will act in the same way on a few levels. It's not like the days of Art Of Fighting where you could wait until you were 1/4's health and then kill the other dude in 3 hits, or learn some cheesy ass combo in KOF and get away with it every match. Even Ultras in 4 were pushing it, despite how punishable they were.

the main problem is that the V-System is not fully realized. V-Skills and V-Triggers should completely change how the characters play. More people should go into a Necalli-like mode -maybe not permanent-, and V-Skills need to charge V-Trigger quickly. instead V-Trigger is another super for some people, a one pony trick for others and just a change in properties of one or two moves

Well, V-trigger/skills are like that now. You WANT to be in Necaili's V-trigger mode because you get a freaking chargeable overhead. You want to use Urien's V-Skill now because it builds more gauge, and his character is real dependent on that once you fight people who are wise to your memes. Ryu has an even bigger incentive to hit V-Trigger.

It's not really the best comeback material, either. You still have to put in work. It's not a super move. Just because Ryu popped his trigger doesn't mean he's gonna get a free stun combo. Dude still has to work, it's just easier.