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Street Fighter V |OTVI| The More I Know, The Worse I Play
- Thread starter Reizo Ryuu
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sixteen-bit
Member
Ace Harding
Member
SF is just kind of stuck in an older generation of games that did not explain every nuance to you. I don't think that's a terrible thing - some games nowadays do it on purpose as part of the experience. And SF2 didn't tell you shit and everyone figured it out even at young ages.
But I think the player base would be better served if they had a solid tutorial in there like GG Xrd does. What they put in SFV is garbage for a completely new player and not particularly helpful for anyone beyond a beginner.
They should have something like Gief's Gym "workout" progressions built into the game, and something that explains how to do the inputs (its not as self-explanatory as you think), what cancelling is, and input timing. I think those are the things that would frustrate someone the most who comes in, looks at the tutorials and then tries to learn some combos through the Trials.
For the Trials they should have some auditory/on-screen indicator of the proper time to enter each input. Knowing your timing is off but not in which direction or to what degree is needlessly frustrating for a new player.
But I think the player base would be better served if they had a solid tutorial in there like GG Xrd does. What they put in SFV is garbage for a completely new player and not particularly helpful for anyone beyond a beginner.
They should have something like Gief's Gym "workout" progressions built into the game, and something that explains how to do the inputs (its not as self-explanatory as you think), what cancelling is, and input timing. I think those are the things that would frustrate someone the most who comes in, looks at the tutorials and then tries to learn some combos through the Trials.
For the Trials they should have some auditory/on-screen indicator of the proper time to enter each input. Knowing your timing is off but not in which direction or to what degree is needlessly frustrating for a new player.
ColonialHawk
Member
But its one of the first thing the game teaches you is it not? When you first boot up SFV you play as Ryu go through a, albeit short and very light, tutorial which includes the varying difference in light/medium/heavy punch, how to do a hadoken, the buttons for vskill, the buttons for vtrigger, throws/throw tech, and how to block. You take this knowledge and apply it to everyone else and practice in training mode.
When you boot up Overwatch, you get to play as Soldier 76 in the tutorial and it shows how to look around, how to move, primary fire, secondary fire, first ability and then second ability. You take this knowledge and apply it to everyone else and practice in training mode. (I am unaware if training mode has been changed since I last played) The difference is you can check characters' moves mid-match to remind you of what they do and how to do them.
The only problem is not everyone has played a fighting game and therefore have to put in more time learning the basics. Everyone at some point has played a FPS since its one of the most popular game genres and already have the basics of the FPS genre under their belt.
His points on single player and DLC issues are not wrong tho.
Edit:
Outlined my mistake.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
I guess I may have focused on the lack of training complaint too much. He asks "how can new people practice" and the answer is "the same way we always have, by fighting a CPU or another person, or against a dummy in training mode." What kind of practice does he want? I think some of his complaints are baseless.
And as far as learning how to do the motions, that's easily solved with a single image or youtube video. It would be nice if that stuff was in-game but it's not a real problem. Learning what the motion is takes seconds and is thereafter a nonissue. Being able to execute the motion correctly is the hard part, and training mode exists with input diagnostics for that purpose. How much more hand holding can they do in that area?
However...
Maybe your point in posting this is that if they had included lots of content for casuals then this kid might have become a long-term SF player? That's a fair point and I'm sure Capcom are indeed missing out on a lot of potential long-term fans by catering to the existing base too strongly.
You think it would be something the game teaches immediately but no. It doesn't go through specials.
The Lone Dragon
Member
He wasn't at frame advantage though, if memory serves me.
EDIT: Maybe he was? I can't find data on it...
In SF5, he's next to you AND at frame advantage if you land MP, HP, or EX. Which is unheard of for SF Gief.
Especially, since there's no invincible backdash or invincible meterless DPs in SF5.
SFIV had no tutorial at all which was very frustrating Considering all the mechanics in that game. Luckily I had a friend at the time run through everything for me and I'm very thankful for that. You do need to have a drive to play fighting games though, I wanted to get good at the game and it took me a very long time until I considered myself not a scrub. No tutorial will give you this drive.
But single player content is important for people to at least see if they are comfortable before going online. I know with 4 I didn't go online for a week at first because all I was doing in was practicing moving and motions in arcade mode. It's good to practice against a moving target (and one that isn't completely brain dead).
Overall though I think the amount of people who have the drive to learn fighting games properly is dwindling and will continue to dwindle. The moba/shooter market is eating fighters audience up.
But single player content is important for people to at least see if they are comfortable before going online. I know with 4 I didn't go online for a week at first because all I was doing in was practicing moving and motions in arcade mode. It's good to practice against a moving target (and one that isn't completely brain dead).
Overall though I think the amount of people who have the drive to learn fighting games properly is dwindling and will continue to dwindle. The moba/shooter market is eating fighters audience up.
Spuck-uk
Banned
It did make some sense because the damage was a lot higher for SPDs in older games.
klabautermann
Member
Also Zangeif no longer has green hand to make up distance, so getting in is a bit more of a struggle for him this time. I think it'd be far more disadvantageous for him to be at neutral after an SPD in SFV.
Nemesis121
Member
This is what i loved about SF4, so easy to mind fuck players with Gief, I can do a bunch of Green hand combos one round don't do a single SPD, lure you into a false sense of none grapple gief, then go on a SPD free round 2...SFV is not my Gief...
TheSpoiler
Member
I don't think that's true. EVO and tournament numbers continue to rise YoY, so people are willing to invest time into these games. It's the opposite - a slow trickle of people instead of a huge flow. The problem is figuring out ways to open the floodgates, and Capcom being the genre leader can do that. They simply refuse.
klabautermann
Member
Honestly the saddest thing about SFV. There is still character variety imo, but not to the lengths past games have had. Instead of trying to create fun characters, they are more pigeonholing them into a certain style. It's fine to balance a character a certain way, but I hope newer characters and balance changes going forward are more geared like Akuma or Urien and some of the buffed combo potential a lot of S1 characters got. Game needs another layer of depth still. I love the game, but sometimes it's still just not as fun as 3S or USFIV for me.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Final Round 20 is the first confirmed Capcom Pro Tour event of 2017. Given that Cannes is closer, I'm gonna bet that it didn't make the list this year. 
Hopefully Europe doesn't get lumbered with more obscure tournaments (Milan Games Week) and less community tournament support.
Hopefully Europe doesn't get lumbered with more obscure tournaments (Milan Games Week) and less community tournament support.
TheSpoiler
Member
If anything, this is one of the SF games that isn't throwing people into a certain style of play per character. I've seen offensive Ryus, defensive Ryus, all of variance in success. XSam's Ryu is a defensive wall, as opposed to Tokido's super aggressive Ryu. Both are able to work, so long as you play within the confines of the game's system like every other fighter.
Compare that to 4, where there's a direct path of optimal play, and that's where everyone ended up with Evil Ryu and Elena and shit like that, doing the same combos.
V is far more expressive, but the combo system is a little more limited without FADC stuff tagging along in S1. S2 has gotten way, way better IMO just watching the past few tournaments. There's a clear difference of how people play these characters now, even goofy Lauras aren't doing the same things.
Ace Harding
Member
I wonder if its still too early to tell on this though? I feel like this took a couple of years with SF4.
I don't think we're talking about Ryu here, he's always been a well rounded character.
But what I want out of Street Fighter is archetypes of play. I want specific match-ups that I have to play a certain way and I want to learn that stuff and progress. In SFV there's a lot of similar offense and defense. Doesn't really matter if Cammy confirms mediums into a drill or Karin confirms mediums into tenko, you know? Or how every character can shimmy and so many could anti-air with jab.
Some of that is missing in V where even Dhalsim has decent offense and you can pressure Zangief from up close.
SF4 offered that and then filled out the rest of the spectrum. In V we started with more in-between characters and I hope they deliver the archetypes..
But like I said, they've gone into the right direction with the DLC characters and I hope they continue this trend.
Sure, but then Capcom decided to nerf Nash bc Infiltration played him in a different way then they envisioned.
IMO Capcom has very specific routes for where characters should be doing what, it's why the game felt very linear in S1.
klabautermann
Member
I definitely think there is character variety in the game and you bring up so good points. I feel like Ryu himself is probably one of the more versatile characters in the game. I also think the game is headed in the right direction has making the combo avenues more creative and fun. It's easy to say "well this game was better at this" because SFV is still so new so only time will tell, but I kinda jumped the gun on the statement a tad.
I think there are some characters that I would like to have more options is more along the lines of what I'm thinking.
Zombegoast
Member
Maybe they should bring back invincible backdash with how dumb grapplers are in this game.
TheSpoiler
Member
It's possible. Every fighting game has optimal ways of playing. SF4 was just more strict in that regard.
Well, having character archetypes presents the problem of relying too much on the character rather than the skill of the player. In essence, it means you'd focus more on counterpicking than "how do I make my bad matchups good?". Like, SF4 had a clear problem of things being far bigger uphill battle if the matchup wasn't in your favor, as opposed to here, barring a select few ridiculous matchups (but all fighters have that, so..).
There's a little problem with homogenizing due to letting people play different styles, but I think it's a fair trade. Every character has a shimmy (well, every character has had shimmies tbh in other games, it's just dashing), but some come out slower, faster, etc, and those are things you have to take into account. While you might want to play Ryu on a purely defensive scale, he's a well-rounder, so the way Daigo played him wasn't correct because he never applied the offense.
The jab WAS a problem, but now that they've put in better options, you can straight up AA shit and get juggles. All of those are different. Some characters can AA fine of a jab and risk it, others like Akuma have better options. So you get to mold yourself in a style, so to speak.
But I see your deal. It was easier to place where you were in previous games in terms of progress. Oh, am I working like this person's Akuma where I'm able to get off this vortex or not?
S2's changes gave a lot more variance, and tournaments are already looking way more varied without characters being able to dominate both fields perfectly, so we'll see. But I'm hopeful.
S2 has done a better job I feel. Even giving us more juggle points is gonna help a lot. And I think Capcom is trying to give a bunch of molds for people to toy around with. Oh, you wanna combo? I got this Akuma. You like grapplers? Boy have I got the Gief for you. Wanna take people coast to coast? Go Rog. And so on!
Of course. A fighter can't live and not have a dedicated plan. But as to what is optimal and how much wiggle room people can have is what matters.
As to why the game feels linear, I heard Chen talk about this, and I agree with him on this point - everyone is doing the same combos. Since you don't have weird cancels and shit, people would have the same handful of combos in their pocket. So you'd see Chuns pull off the same shit quite a bit. It was the usage, spacing, aggressive/passiveness, specials usage, and other things that made each player different. Alcurid plays like a damn nut with his Birdie, but Xyxxzy was more methodical, even if they were trying to confirm into super.
Again, S2 is changing that, even on a slower scale. I'm not even seeing the same Urien combos done on me, but i could just be lucky lol
Yeah, it's basically two different philosophies at play and you can never satisfy both ends. The more unique you make your characters, the more one-sided match-ups you'll have.
But I would much much rather have fun and unique characters with expressive styles with a few very lopsided match-ups than a homogenized idealistic fighter where everything is 6-4 or closer.
I actually think this is a problem with the current e-sports push, too. People expect an all around well balanced game for every single character when that wasn't the case in the past when it was more of an arcade or dorm room game.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
When arrow ends and cammy is still sliding and on the other side
Urien's forward mp is as good as Fei Long's lp rekka IMO. Turn's a lot of people's well spaced pokes into just in range of that button. Add to the fact that his throw range makes that button a fucking tick throw and with v trigger that button becomes gateway into derpville...and you got a problem.
I don't think he's stupid OP. But he is over tuned. +1 on cr mk, get the fuck outta here, capcom.
Think it's +2
TheSpoiler
Member
Yeah, people want goofy shit but also want balance, and that's incredibly difficult to do. That's why I cringe when people are like MAN I WISH EVERY CHARACTER WAS LIKE ROG/URIEN/WHATEVER after seeing some cool combo, but under the same breath want everything to be equal. That shit is impossible.
I hope Capcom continues to give relevance to the v-mechanics. I think all fighters are aiming towards finding one thing that is just goofy as fuck in a sea of balance to give people that ounce of fun. And, like you said, the DLC characters are doing shit different. So a mix of those two things would be the best way to address the problem.
Hellshingu
Member
direct_quote
Member
Urien's isn't special cancelable, but you can do v trigger off of it lol.
Hellshingu
Member
They need to at least put it to +0 if anything.
Hellshingu
Member
Yeah I know. It used to be special cancelable in his story mode version. Not that it mattered then.
Edit: Sorry for double post.
You guys remember Churning the Butter? It's a norcal tournament that used to be weekly, then biweekly, and now apparently monthly. I just read a FB post from who I assume is one of the TOs, and the primary reasons for cutting back on the tourny were attendance (smash 4 apparently eclipsed sfv) so they didn't feel like it was worth setting up for, and people traveling for other tourneys (this one makes no sense, since at most there would only be a couple players going to CPT events). But he also mentioned that he's been told by some members of the community that SFV isn't very well liked, which is the most disappointing part. Is the situation in the FGC really this dire? It's already hard enough finding locals in the area, and now even the few I was aware of are seemingly dying off.
TheSpoiler
Member
Lol no. It happens with every new SF. A loud minority of people will shout that the game is trash and nobody likes it, despite attendance numbers rising all over the place. But locals will die for a number of reasons. Price, people going elsewhere, etc. A single game isn't gonna kill off a local because there are dozens of other fighters.
Are you in Norcal? There are many Locals I go to in South Bay. But yea CTB was the biggest. But yea I can see why they were cutting back , Numbers dont seem SFIV level.
Hmm idk man. USF4 seemed very popular , it could also be the SFV ( pre-release) hype that brought people back though.
Except in this case it genuinely seems like the desire to play this game in locals is very low, as this is the second local event I know of to die due to very low community turnout. Maybe it's just the Bay Area that's losing its FGC.
Yeah, I'm aware of a few in the South Bay, I just wish there was more around the East Bay. Driving down to San Jose after work is kind of a pain with traffic, though SF isn't that much better.
I think the reason is the lowered execution needed for combos; everyone focuses on optimizing combos so you cannot blame them for all using the same combo
there are two solutions to this; one is obviously rising the execution barrier, but the other is to make combos more situational. make juggles miss if they start from certain distance, make hits give more frame advantage depending on whether you hit with the tip or deep, don't have CAs that just suck people in the combo animation (like how Ken or Chun will have their CAs land the opponent even in a juggle), etc
problem is that this makes doing combos harder cause you cannot rely on muscle memory anymore, and it is a huge boon to people with better reaction, who can select on the fly the best combo to do from any distance. a lot of combos include one or two "adjusting" hits, that will put the attacker and attacked in known, reliable positions. mostly the target combos do that, but also certain special moves in most circumstances and of course most CAs. you'd have to take away that (or make target combos suffer damage penalties) so people had to concentrate on more honest combos that are harder to do but give better return. it is an execution barrier too, but one that relies on awareness of the fight, not necessarily muscle memory so I don't think it'd be that bad
TheSpoiler
Member
USF4 was lambasted everywhere. Not only at locals, but even at big events by top players. And that wasn't just USF4. SF4 got the same heat too. There's always a subset of people who just don't want to move onto the next game. SF4 was called baby's first fighter, and 3S was straight up hipster town.
Which reminds me:
https://clips.twitch.tv/avoidingthepuddle/SmilingGaurCmonBruh
Because more people are playing fighting games, it just seems like more hate.
But locals in other places are getting higher turnouts. I know my local is getting bigger because of SFV. The problem is, locals come with a huge amount of factors. CPTs, other better locals, the desire to just play online after a hard day at work, or people don't like the games. Most locals, at least that I know of, don't only do SFV.
Additionally, it's harder to run a local scene in some cases. Venue costs get higher, people stop wanting to pay to get in despite that being a necessity, people move, and if your area isn't big enough or is fragmented (erad: Chicago), you can kiss having a dedicated area goodbye unless someone commits the time. It used to be a lot easier to get a space at a bar every weekend for some fighting games, but that shit doesn't happen nearly as much.
For all the "I don't like SFV" complaining, those people are welcome to bring their own games and keep the scene alive. For whatever reason, they don't, which is why I don't think a singular game is at fault.
On the flipside, much of this is accidental, so I find it better to at least look at turnouts at bigger venues to see how the games are doing. SFV, and other fighters, are doing better than previous years.
I think the problem is that most of the community considered S1 to be relatively balanced, at least for a decent chunk of the cast, but then S2 nerfed some of the viable cast, nerfed some of the non-viable cast (!?), buffed part of the viable cast and buffed part of the non viable cast
but we only expected the buffs to the non-viable cast, except for Mika's nerf to her clap, the nerfs were mostly unwelcomed (well some of us also welcome the new lack of meterless reversals)
so this exacerbated the whole balance discussion and whether everyone should have a lot of tools, whether a buff only policy is even possible or desirable, etc etc. I think that in the end, most people understand that in a fighting game there will be a few unviable characters, but we are puzzled at some of the S2 changes
TheSpoiler
Member
Funny you say that, because some of Urien's combos practically rely on spacing and where he's at by the opponent.
But I actually like the idea, since it plays into the whole "fight the other person and not the system" well enough.
well everyone likes Urien and wants more characters to have that variety of tools, yeah
but I also think that there will be certain people pissed if they start whiffing in a BnB combo just cause their spacing is different from what they practiced
also could make several match ups way worse, if weight and height of the characters matters too much
ofc I also would be among the pissed cause I play Zangief and want my combos to just have three parts to them
jump in, land hit -> lariat or CAThe hate cycle exists for every major gaming franchise like now we have people begging for FF13 after 15 LOL. I'm sure SFV will be the goat if we hopefully get a VI.
I've never played Nash and lost to a bunch of them, but I gotta say the character really seems like it got hit with the nerf bat way too hard. I kind of like what was suggested earlier just make all of the characters slightly broken in some aspect, I like that type of game.
His f.mp will only hit crouching people if they're pretty close though, so off the bat, it's not quite rekka good.
It's also -2, although it becomes a frame-trap if they complete the target combo. You kind of have to read your opponent about whether or not you can push buttons after you block it.
Don't get me wrong, it's one of his best tools. The fact that the target combo is a frame trap on block makes people afraid to push buttons, which begins the throw/low shenanigans. But Fei Long's rekkas they aren't.
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