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Street Fighter V |OTVI| The More I Know, The Worse I Play

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Mediking

Member
Because it would be annoying as hell to have that pack the psn DLC section. It's already annoying for a lot of games with Costume dlc. Glad SFV doesn't have that issue.

?! Wait, what? How is it annoying if its optional?! The fact that I can't buy DLC costumes via PSN mobile or even PSN desktop is a shame! SFV should offer both ways: through the game and other ways like PSN Mobile and PSN desktop. I wanna buy it AWAY from home.
 
I mean, OK, but speak for yourself.

Personally I really like seeing people get mauled 3S because they made a mistake - same in a bunch of modern games like KOF or KI or Xrd. My point is just that SFV is not some weird anomaly where the rules had to change because damage output is fundamentally different.

it doesn't matter what you like seeing, SF5 is a different game than everything else you have listed, and it's good at what it does, it doesn't have to be like other games just for your viewing pleasure.

Also, pretending people can't get "mauled" in SF5, even though characters like necalli/ryu can do 500+ damage, is hilarious.
 
SFV doesn't even have high damage - seriously, go watch a CvS2 video where A-Sakura gets an invincible activation into a BLOCKSTRING for 1/3 of your health.

3S has 0-stun -> death combos and unblockable loops if you screw up. The best character in that game has 1 button confirms into a super that takes half your health into a 50/50 blender back into super for the other half.

Alpha 3 has CC infinites and V-ism garbage.

ST, well, you get hit with one uppercut and you're bleeding. You get to take throw bash loops into possibly the round for missing anything.

SFV has higher damage compared to other SF games in the mainline while retaining it's balance and putting in less effort is what I mean, save 2. Sure, there are setups for a bunch of characters in CvS2 and 3S, but not across the board for every character. A handful of hits from Gief and it's over compared to his other incarnations where you'd have to put in a lot more work to get that, and that's similar for a lot of characters.

ST is kind of where this game takes much of the DNA from, though not as bad.

Not to mention other games - KOF13, Marvel, Guilty Gear, KI - all games with one-touch into half health or more on a regular basis.

I don't think many of those games can give you half a bar of life off a target combo into a few specials for anime games. KI has the breaker system (which from what I understand means more about reading your opponent than execution anyway!). And KOF and Marvel are team based games so per captia the damage between individuals is higher, but not when a full 3v3 match is taking place from a few normals.

So, I think that argument that execution needs to be easier because of abnormally high damage in SFV is misguided.

The point that I'm making is those games all have systems in place to work with the amount of damage dished out, not including Alpha's dumb bullshit or CvS2's One-Grove-Is-Best. KI has the breakers, Marvel has a similar system (and 3v3, and pushblock), and so on. Actually, 13's execution is easier than before, and 14 had a big problem with that.

As to your other points; I really don't see much personality in playstyles between Bonchan and Infiltration, although I agree with you on Justin and Mago (but that's just because Mago is Doing It Right and Justin isn't).

Maybe it depends on the commentators or your game knowledge, but Flash and Nemo are ridiculously different with their Vegas. Flash is clean, almost too clean, while Nemo plays Vega like Rolento. I think he exclusively goes clawless? It's been a while since I've seen him play.

For Bonchan, that dude is straight up aggressive which is why he's a better Nash than Infl IMO. Instead of standing back and jabbing and going for the CA all day, he's going in far more often, he throws out more booms, he uses more MK scythes, etc. Dude spends his meter a lot more but gets too risky for my taste. Infl tries to lame it out too much these days and people caught on.

On a lower tier of things, Urien players are all over the board. I've played against people who turtle with Urien all day, and people (like me) who are aggressive and just go ham. Some dudes rely on AR setups and getting to that point with his V Skill. Some don't even use it.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
Some of you misunderstand me, I don't want SF4 back. I'm asking for a slightly more visible skill curve vecause I can already see how it's a problem.
Eh...SF4 had the same combos over and over at EVO.
But you didn't see the same ones from mediocre players, you had to watch EVO. That was my point.
And both ST and 3s have much harder execution all around, but I can't imagine we go back to either ST style controls or a universal mechanic as dominant as the 3s parry system (not to mention all the other ways that game is as deep as it is).
for all of sf4's "complexity", people just kept using the same stuff over and over, because damage.
It didn't stop umvc3 players from using the same doom/magneto/storm/vergil/etc combos over and over either.
Same here, your average Marvel player can't do Zero loops or fill the screen with Morrigan's fireballs. That stuff ain't easy.
 

Skilletor

Member
I think the only character that I would have trouble doing a blind test on in this game is Necalli.

I want more vtriggers, more supers, I want vskills to be buffed. I'd like to see everybody get new normals and specials.

But that's not going to solve the complaints, because, unless it's balanced immaculately, most players are going to use just one super, vtrigger or whatever. We'll just be back to the complaints we're seeing here.

I just don't see how this game is so different from A3, A2, ST.

/shrug

Some of you misunderstand me, I don't want SF4 back. I'm asking for a slightly more visible skill curve vecause I can already see how it's a problem.

But you didn't see the same ones from mediocre players, you had to watch EVO. That was my point.
And both ST and 3s have much harder execution all around, but I can't imagine we go back to either ST style controls or a universal mechanic as dominant as the 3s parry system (not to mention all the other ways that game is as deep as it is).

Same here, your average Marvel player can't do Zero loops or fill the screen with Morrigan's fireballs. That stuff ain't easy.

If you say so, meign. Been listening to people bitch about SF4 combos for like 5 years because so many players couldn't do simple shit.

And, I mean, in the past few weeks, I've seen a couple players saying that this game ISN'T easier than SF4. So what you gonna do? lol
 
Some of you misunderstand me, I don't want SF4 back. I'm asking for a slightly more visible skill curve vecause I can already see how it's a problem.
.

That's why I think the V Skill thing needs to be tweaked. That's where that curve was probably suppose to come into play - where people would explore all the neat things a character can do or defend against and half the cast isn't even required to use it.
 
?! Wait, what? How is it annoying if its optional?! The fact that I can't buy DLC costumes via PSN mobile or even PSN desktop is a shame! SFV should offer both ways: through the game and other ways like PSN Mobile and PSN desktop. I wanna buy it AWAY from home.

I do agree it would be cool if there was some other way to get the costumes other than the game itself (Some FM website that also links to psn would be cool), but there's nothing more annoying than having to go through the add-on section looking for the newest map pack that I want or whatever, and I have to go through this mess of cosmetics and microtransactions.

My point is: Browsing the PSN store is annoying, and they should fix it.
 
?! Wait, what? How is it annoying if its optional?! The fact that I can't buy DLC costumes via PSN mobile or even PSN desktop is a shame! SFV should offer both ways: through the game and other ways like PSN Mobile and PSN desktop. I wanna buy it AWAY from home.

I imagine it's a remnant of the old Zenny currency Capcom wanted to use in the game. Lock everything to the game shop and Zenny like MB coin in MGSV.
 

Mediking

Member
The game can only teach you so much before you realize that's all about mind games and reaction speeds. Sometimes I've made mistakes on purposes just to see how somebody will react. Let them punish a round then destory them next round. Stuff like that is magical and stressful at the same time.
 
That's SFV's blessing and curse - you play against the person, not the systems. You'd grind out combos and links and shit in 4 all day. In V, you grind out match experience and human knowledge.
This.

SFIV wasn't even a good combo game either; GGX2 for example had something similar to FADC's (but more interesting) back in 2002 and there are plenty of other fighting games (old and new) that comparatively speaking provide significantly more creative flexibility in terms of potential combo diversity than it. Fact of the matter is that mainline Street Fighter never really was all that combo-oriented compared to the competition too if you look at most prior iterations, so it's IV that's one of those scant few anomalies here with V going back to some of the series' original philosophies. And then there's the matter (which others already pointed out) of IV's supposed combo variety also being highly predictable at various levels of skilled play, especially when you look at vanilla, so this component is vastly overstated.

I'm all for different strategical tools being added in the long run, but "more combos" is low-priority stuff in the grand scheme of it all.

I find Max very biased when it comes to SFV. He mentions sales yet he doesn't even say how much the game has actually shipped in total and how well it has actually done in comparison to so many of the fighters he plays on his channel. He constantly tries to nitpick about every little thing just to backup his agenda. He mentions playing the beta but fails to understand that the beta was still an unbalanced mess and needed to be tweaked before the game was released. Hence "beta".
Max is a sensationalist blowhard whose primary arguments about the strength of his favourite characters largely revolved around "they nerfed muh comboz!" back when retail SFV launched.

Reminder that Nash and Ken are weak, according to his insightful wisdom.
 

blackadde

Member
SFV has higher damage compared to other SF games in the mainline while retaining it's balance and putting in less effort is what I mean, save 2. Sure, there are setups for a bunch of characters in CvS2 and 3S, but not across the board for every character. A handful of hits from Gief and it's over compared to his other incarnations where you'd have to put in a lot more work to get that, and that's similar for a lot of characters.

ST is kind of where this game takes much of the DNA from, though not as bad.



I don't think many of those games can give you half a bar of life off a target combo into a few specials for anime games. KI has the breaker system (which from what I understand means more about reading your opponent than execution anyway!). And KOF and Marvel are team based games so per captia the damage between individuals is higher, but not when a full 3v3 match is taking place from a few normals.



The point that I'm making is those games all have systems in place to work with the amount of damage dished out, not including Alpha's dumb bullshit or CvS2's One-Grove-Is-Best. KI has the breakers, Marvel has a similar system (and 3v3, and pushblock), and so on. Actually, 13's execution is easier than before, and 14 had a big problem with that.



Maybe it depends on the commentators or your game knowledge, but Flash and Nemo are ridiculously different with their Vegas. Flash is clean, almost too clean, while Nemo plays Vega like Rolento. I think he exclusively goes clawless? It's been a while since I've seen him play.

For Bonchan, that dude is straight up aggressive which is why he's a better Nash than Infl IMO. Instead of standing back and jabbing and going for the CA all day, he's going in far more often, he throws out more booms, he uses more MK scythes, etc. Dude spends his meter a lot more but gets too risky for my taste. Infl tries to lame it out too much these days and people caught on.

On a lower tier of things, Urien players are all over the board. I've played against people who turtle with Urien all day, and people (like me) who are aggressive and just go ham. Some dudes rely on AR setups and getting to that point with his V Skill. Some don't even use it.

SFV doesn't even have higher normal damage than SFV or 3S or whatever. Fierces / Mediums / Lights all do similar stray hit damage across the board. I'm just a little confused by the rest of your post to be honest -

-ST / SFIV Gief are both way, WAY scarier than SFV Gief once he gets in
-Marvel doesn't have breakers & incoming characters are just meat for the grinder, so losing one is way worse than losing 1/3 of your health bar in SF
-CvS2 had multiple tournament-worthy grooves (A, C, N, K)
-KOF doesn't have rounds, so losing a character is roughly equivalent to losing a round outright
-I don't disagree that Nemo / Flash play very differently - one is good, the other is Flash

Sorry if this comes across as curt or condescending; definitely not my intent. It's just hard to keep a cap on things when multiple points need to get addressed without spiraling out into a quote war.

I think you're trying to make a point about how damage is more easily accessible in SFV - I agree, it is, at a lower level of play. The optimized damage character do is roughly similar, it's just that the optimized damage is always the easy damage in SFV with few exceptions. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, but the flavor of the game at a high level isn't fundamentally different than say SFIV - except! - because the input buffer exists, the game is really clockwork. There's no slop in the breakpoints where you're at -2f and you can sooooometimes press a button because your opponent his hit jab a frame early or late. It's always going to be the same outcome - minus 2, press the 3f button. Beat their thing, or they block it, the end.

Combo execution is an element of that, of course, but not all 'execution' is just not dropping a juggle. Reversals are unmissable at every level of play, for instance, and that changes the game - for better or worse is going to be a matter of opinion, but I hope my point has been made that very real potential at all levels of play for missing a [link, combo, reversal, juggle, confirm] under pressure can make a game exciting. It's that looseness of play that allows for characters to grow and new, exciting developments to happen years down the line.

Capcom, as usual, is to blame. They tackled the problem of accessibility from the wrong end; by changing the system rather then providing better instruction for the players.

Edit - Some words I fixed up real good.
 
Maximilian's 5 changes:

- remove anti-air jab
- reduce frame delay
- improve/extend/add V-Skills/V-Trigger
- improve matchmaking and speed it up
- add arcade mode and hidden bosses

I mean...that's pretty much what everyone agrees on I would say. Nothing crazy. And hasn't he made pretty much the exact same video before?

Can't stand Max's videos, these 5 points took him 13 minutes

I love Max, but goddamn how many "Street Fighter V changes" videos do you need to make, dude?

We get it. Seriously, didn't he make the same exact video a few months ago.
 

eggandI

Banned
Execution/combos is just about the last thing SFV needs tweaked imo.

The game needs some big changes. If Season 2 doesn't deliver those changes then I'm out 😴. I've barely been playing the last 3 months, and the only reason I still keep up with this game is cause I'm hoping they introduce some big and interesting changes next year.
 

SSReborn

Member
Execution/combos is just about the last thing SFV needs tweaked imo.

The game needs some big changes. If Season 2 doesn't deliver those changes then I'm out 😴. I've barely been playing the last 3 months, and the only reason I still keep up with this game is cause I'm hoping they introduce some big and interesting changes next year.

What do you want to see ?
 
Execution/combos is just about the last thing SFV needs tweaked imo.

The game needs some big changes. If Season 2 doesn't deliver those changes then I'm out ��. I've barely been playing the last 3 months, and the only reason I still keep up with this game is cause I'm hoping they introduce some big and interesting changes next year.

I don't mean to be an ass, but don't say that you disagree with the change, say the game needs 'big changes', then proceed to not even mention what those changes are.

Edit: lol. Eggandl's balls exposed on stream
 

Mizerman

Member
Execution/combos is just about the last thing SFV needs tweaked imo.

The game needs some big changes. If Season 2 doesn't deliver those changes then I'm out 😴. I've barely been playing the last 3 months, and the only reason I still keep up with this game is cause I'm hoping they introduce some big and interesting changes next year.

What big or interesting changes you want to see?
 
I think you're trying to make a point about how damage is more easily accessible in SFV - I agree, it is, at a lower level of play. The optimized damage character do is roughly similar, it's just that the optimized damage is always the easy damage in SFV with few exceptions. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, but the flavor of the game at a high level isn't fundamentally different than say SFIV - except! - because the input buffer exists, the game is really clockwork. There's no slop in the breakpoints where you're at -2f and you can sooooometimes press a button because your opponent his hit jab a frame early or late. It's always going to be the same outcome - minus 2, press the 3f button. Beat their thing, or they block it, the end.

Combo execution is an element of that, of course, but not all 'execution' is just not dropping a juggle. Reversals are unmissable at every level of play, for instance, and that changes the game - for better or worse is going to be a matter of opinion, but I hope my point has been made that very real potential at all levels of play for missing a [link, combo, reversal, juggle, confirm] under pressure can make a game exciting. It's that looseness of play that allows for characters to grow and new, exciting developments to happen years down the line.

Capcom, as usual, is to blame. They tackled the problem of accessibility from the wrong end; by changing the system rather then providing better instruction for the players.

I see what you mean. If the changes on the V Skills and any other systems they decide to add provide that possible growth, to me, that seems like a decent trade off compared to straight links or longer combos (well, thinking about it, you'd get more options and setups from better usage of the V Skills if they get fleshed out).
 
Why would you want crush counters removed? Probably one of the better additions in SFV.. I just want some more combo variety back and make anti-airs great again (that aren't jab). It's also weird that the characters with invincible reversals (that don't cost meter) have better anti-airs too... Why Capcom..
 

blackadde

Member
I see what you mean. If the changes on the V Skills and any other systems they decide to add provide that possible growth, to me, that seems like a decent trade off compared to straight links or longer combos (well, thinking about it, you'd get more options and setups from better usage of the V Skills if they get fleshed out).

I agree! I think V-Skills for the most part ended up rather underwhelming. Guile has the only one that comes to mind as really interesting - it opened up so many avenues for pressure, space control, etc., that make him way more interesting to play as, play against, and cheer for.

Not all executional things need to be so clearly gated as 1f normal links - making people have to think about all sorts of space-control things like situational 2-hit boom combos is great for working that part of the brain too.
 

LakeEarth

Member
I spit my drink while watching Max's video when he stated that SFV had only sold 100k since launch. I know it hasn't been great, but he made it sound like that's all the game has sold, which is way way off.
 

eggandI

Banned
Crush counters:

They are one of the things that make neutral silly. People mashing out their best CC buttons in neutral hoping that the opponent will run into it. It's like focus crumple fishing except a lot dumber.

I also think the V system is bad and should be completely overhauled or just replaced by something else entirely :/

The V system really does not add anything meaningful to the game imo. V-skills/triggers aren't anywhere near as meta-defining as something like Supers in ST, custom combos in A2, Isms in A3, parries in 3S and focus in 4.

Note I'm not saying Capcom needs to change all of these things. I'm just listing the kind of big changes I'd like to see. Shit, I'd get into this game all over again if they simply gave us faster walkspeeds and longer normals.
 
Crush Counters are a good addition it's just yea.. using them randomly in neutral (Necalli st.HK) remind me of random focus attacks in neutral because of how much value you can get off of them lol
 

Mr. X

Member
Max is clickbait.

The game doesn't harder execution because Daigo and ultra bronze can do the same Ryu combo.

The skill difference is obvious. V-reversal usage, defense, discipline on not mashing, picking up on small nuances on your opponent to take advantage and most importantly matchup knowledge.

Look how after Redbull, Japanese players sought out Guile and Urien players and share info. People get outplayed nonstop simply off how well they learn the other character's tools.
 

Csr

Member
Crush counters:

They are one of the things that make neutral silly. People mashing out their best CC buttons in neutral hoping that the opponent will run into it. It's like focus crumple fishing except a lot dumber.

I also think the V system is bad and should be completely overhauled or just replaced by something else entirely :/

The V system really does not add anything meaningful to the game imo. V-skills/triggers aren't anywhere near as meta-defining as something like Supers in ST, custom combos in A2, Isms in A3, parries in 3S and focus in 4.

Note I'm not saying Capcom needs to change all of these things. I'm just listing the kind of big changes I'd like to see. Shit, I'd get into this game all over again if they simply gave us faster walkspeeds and longer normals.

It is a high risk, high reward situation, if someone is constantly pressing heavy buttons you can whiff punish them. (unless they are chun li)
I don't see the problem.

V-system should be more usefull/meaningfull for some characters, i agree there.

Crush Counters are a good addition it's just yea.. using them randomly in neutral (Necalli st.HK) remind me of random focus attacks in neutral because of how much value you can get off of them lol

I think the problem is how hard it is to whiff punish in this game not the cc system.
 

LakeEarth

Member
I agree that crush counters shouldn't be attached to the characters best poke. I do like them though, they eventually trained me to react to regular counter hits as well.
 
Wait when is the first CPT event of next year? I guess I should ask what the first one was this year, because we'd have to get the patch before then.
 

eggandI

Banned
The first premier event this year was in March yeah. Final Round.

Sooo, if there's a CPT2017, they have 3 months and some change to get that patch out.

😰😰
 

Mr. X

Member
I like CC implementation. They made normals pretty strong and the CC helps keep them from becoming overbearing since you don't want a limb caught by that. Also helps in a game design way the player learn to spacing, risk and reward and read rhythms of people.

My suggested change would be lower jump heights and less hitstun so you need to hit deeper to combo off them. Not ST deep.
 
Theoretically, I could see it coming in Feb to fine tune stuff and let the public play it.

So that gives us two months to get the details, complain about Urien getting nerfed, and switch mains.

I plan on showing up at around 3 or so CPT events just to experience them, so I'm super excited for next year.
 
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