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Street Fighter V |OTVII| New Generation - Connection To Haters Was Lost

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M

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
What is it with teeth in this game?

C6ZKAnSUoAMliGJ.jpg:large


https://twitter.com/Shadaloo_CRI/status/839439770635771904

This account keeps posting stuff btw, mostly about Shadaloo bad guys. I wonder if it means anything.
 
B

Blueblur1

Member
sixteen-bit said:
Does Capcom think esports will save SFV?
Click to expand...

Its starting to look that way. The main game is impenetrable for casual players since the game doesn't teach you nowhere near enough. That makes it extremely difficult to grow a spectator audience. (I fully expect they won't and will go as far as to say that this year CPT attendance, stream numbers, etc will be down in comparison to 2016.)

I've seen Capcom folks say 'fighting games are poised to hit it big because they're so easy to understand' so that's likely what Capcom as a whole believes to be true. But SFV probably won't hit those popularity levels when the larger [potential] audience have no accessible path to learning the game. SFV's appeal is likely already hurt each time a new player finds out how punishing fighting games can be and that SFV lacks the tools to teach them. That has been limiting fighting games' audience for ages and will likely continue to do so if its not addressed.

I doubt esports deals and events will help in the long term.
 
M

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
Esport is the results of games being popular, not the other way around. Capcom should take a good look at Evolve.
 
N

Neoxon

Junior Member
Blueblur1 said:
Its starting to look that way. The main game is impenetrable for casual players since the game doesn't teach you nowhere near enough. That makes it extremely difficult to grow a spectator audience. (I fully expect they won't and will go as far as to say that this year CPT attendance, stream numbers, etc will be down in comparison to 2016.)

I've seen Capcom folks say 'fighting games are poised to hit it big because they're so easy to understand' so that's likely what Capcom as a whole believes to be true. But SFV probably won't hit those popularity levels when the larger [potential] audience have no accessible path to learning the game. SFV's appeal is likely already hurt each time a new player finds out how punishing fighting games can be and that SFV lacks the tools to teach them. That has been limiting fighting games' audience for ages and will likely continue to do so if its not addressed.

I doubt esports deals and events will help in the long term.
Click to expand...
To be fair, SFV isn't exactly a hard game to learn.
 
M

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
Neoxon said:
To be fair, SFV isn't exactly a hard game to learn.
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It absolutely is compared to almost any other game. MOBAs are easier to get into, so are all shooters and most card games, too. Even in RTS you atleast understand the rock-paper-scissor aspect pretty easily when watching the best play it.
Now give someone a controller who is new to fighting games and see how they do.

It's easy to see who is winning and losing, but that's not where the enjoyment comes from when watching fighting games.
 
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Blueblur1

Member
Neoxon said:
To be fair, SFV isn't exactly a hard game to learn.
Click to expand...

I'm a newbie when it comes to playing fighting games properly (before SFV all I did was play arcade modes and stuff like MK's tower modes). And I can tell you that SFV is incredibly hard to play. I've been downright discouraged many times to just delete SFV from my hard drive and sell my fightstick because how badly I've been beaten online. But because of my friends (and how awesome I find the FGC to be), I've kept playing. And I've gotten better solely because my friends watch my matches and give me feedback along with teaching me fighting game concepts. If I didn't have someone teaching me that stuff and demonstrating how to apply it then I wouldn't be spending my time on SFV.

(Even Gief's Gym isn't enough as it only teaches you concepts. Its difficult to remember all of them and not easy to identify how apply them correctly in your play when all of that is alien to you as a new player.)
 
M

myco666

Member
mnz said:
It absolutely is compared to almost any other game. MOBAs are easier to get into, so are all shooters and most card games, too. Even in RTS you atleast understand the rock-paper-scissor aspect pretty easily when watching the best play it.
Now give someone a controller who is new to fighting games and see how they do.

It's easy to see who is winning and losing, but that's not where the enjoyment comes from when watching fighting games.
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I find RTS way harder to learn. Have tried bunch of times but there is something I just don't get. Way easier to get into SFV imo.

Also while watching FGs when you understand them is way more interesting they are also interesting to watch when you don't understand them. My knowledge was practically 0 before SFV but I still enjoyed watching Evo every year.
 
M

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
I think a lot of people are in a bit of a bubble and don't realise just how different fighting games are to basically any other genre of video games. The only things that come close are games with a big emphasis on animations, but even they don't have the inputs, training methods or the "human element" of a 1 vs 1 in a fighting game.

MrCarter said:
SFV is "hard" to play? You must have been really bad at SFIV and SF3 then. FADC's and Parries galore.
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Yeah that's the bubble lol

myco666 said:
I find RTS way harder to learn. Have tried bunch of times but there is something I just don't get. Way easier to get into SFV imo.

Also while watching FGs when you understand them is way more interesting they are also interesting to watch when you don't understand them. My knowledge was practically 0 before SFV but I still enjoyed watching Evo every year.
Click to expand...
Being good at RTS is extremely hard, but understanding what people are doing isn't.
 
M

myco666

Member
Blueblur1 said:
I'm a newbie when it comes to playing fighting games properly (before SFV all I did was play arcade modes and stuff like MK's tower modes). And I can tell you that SFV is incredibly hard to play. I've been downright discouraged many times to just delete SFV from my hard drive and sell my fightstick because how badly I've been beaten online. But because of my friends (and how awesome I find the FGC to be), I've kept playing. And I've gotten better solely because my friends watch my matches and give me feedback along with teaching me fighting game concepts. If I didn't have someone teaching me that stuff and demonstrating how to apply it then I wouldn't be spending my time on SFV.

(Even Gief's Gym isn't enough as it only teaches you concepts. Its difficult to remember all of them and not easy to identify how apply them correctly in your play when all of that is alien to you as a new player.)
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SFV is definitely bad at teaching you how to play. I thought that the demonstrations were fine at first but then I played Revelator and realized how much better you can teach players. Still would say that SFV is easy-ish to play.

mnz said:
Being good at RTS is extremely hard, but understanding what people are doing isn't.
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Only thing I understand in RTS is that you collect resources > build your base and army > attack the other team but that is just scratching the surface. Basically same as hit the opponent more times than they hit you in fighting games.
 
S

Skilletor

Member
mnz said:
I think a lot of people are in a bit of a bubble and don't realise just how different fighting games are to basically any other genre of video games. The only things that come close are games with a big emphasis on animations, but even they don't have the inputs, training methods or the "human element" of a 1 vs 1 in a fighting game.


Yeah that's the bubble lol


Being good at RTS is extremely hard, but understanding what people are doing isn't.
Click to expand...

I genuinely don't think that teaching people how to play fighters will help the genre at all. I think it's wasted resources because people can't handle losing. I think, at this point, that the people that really want to learn have the resources to do so from various communities.

I am not against the idea. I'm all for indepth tutorials like VF4:Evo, I just don't think they do any good. I don't think it would help player retention. I don't think it would help lots of players learn the game. I just think it's a huge waste of time for companies to court new players through indepth tutorials.
 
F

FluxWaveZ

Member
Skilletor said:
I genuinely don't think that teaching people how to play fighters will help the genre at all. I think it's wasted resources because people can't handle losing. I think, at this point, that the people that really want to learn have the resources to do so from various communities.

I am not against the idea. I'm all for indepth tutorials like VF4:Evo, I just don't think they do any good. I don't think it would help player retention. I don't think it would help lots of players learn the game. I just think it's a huge waste of time for companies to court new players through indepth tutorials.
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I think it'd be completely worth it if only to shut down that venue of complaints. The "this game is complex and it doesn't have the proper tools to teach." SFV's "tutorial" upon starting the game was a joke, as a lot of things are with the game, and it adds up. The more venues for complaints are closed, the more positive vibes a game has. And if newcomers truly aren't able to handle fighting games because of the fundamental reason that they can't handle losing, then the discussion would boil down to that instead of the actually reasonable excuses concerning what the game itself is lacking. Newcomers want to start with the resources within the game itself instead of searching for information outside of it. That process can be daunting at first.

Like, 1v1 ladder in StarCraft II is still more popular than Street Fighter V (at least, it's easier to find a match). The lack of popularity can't simply be attributed to not being able to take a loss.
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
It really depends on where the person comes from. That's why you get people who can understand FGs and can't understand RTSs, and vice versa. To ease that pain, you absolutely need good tutorials and explanations in-game, but most people nowadays bite the bullet and resort to going online as well. It's not pretty, but it's what people have to do because Capcom, SNK, and a few others don't care to put good tutorials in their games.

But eSports? You guys are seriously downplaying one of the most important things to the survival of fighting games. That shit is the only way people are going to see fighting games on a broader scale and grow as fast as it needs to. Putting it on ESPN and getting mainstream appeal? That's what all fighting games need. And then it trickles down to the players. You get them to stick around because not only are the pot bonuses bigger, but shit, now you can get sponsorship, so why not make this into a legitimate career path?

It's basically a money injection in the scene, and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. In return, Capcom, and every other developer, has to keep their product going with DLC, support, and more, because more eyes are on them. I don't think you can separate the two.

tl;dr fighting games need money to survive, both in terms of tournaments, players, and company partnerships. eSports provides that.

FluxWaveZ said:
I think it'd be completely worth it if only to shut down that venue of complaints. The "this game is complex and it doesn't have the proper tools to teach." SFV's "tutorial" upon starting the game was a joke, as a lot of things are with the game, and it adds up. The more venues for complaints are closed, the more positive vibes a game has. And if newcomers truly aren't able to handle fighting games because of the fundamental reason that they can't handle losing, then the discussion would boil down to that instead of the actually reasonable excuses concerning what the game itself is lacking. Newcomers want to start with the resources within the game itself instead of searching for information outside of it. That process can be daunting at first.

Like, 1v1 ladder in StarCraft II is still more popular than Street Fighter V (at least, it's easier to find a match). The lack of popularity can't simply be attributed to not being able to take a loss.
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Yeah, covering all the bases should be the focus. Both offline and online.

But SC2 and SFV aren't really comparable since fighting games are far more niche than the SC series will ever be.
 
M

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
But then what's the point of pumping money into esport? If the endgoal isn't to get newcomers into it to grow your base then they should invest it elsewhere.

edit: I've yet to see how "SFV on ESPN" leads to more players. Stuff lije Overwatch explodes because tge game is amazing, not because it's played on TV.
 
P

Pompadour

Member
SFV should have a much better tutorial but claiming that's what is holding back its popularity isn't true. If so, Xrd would be as popular as SFV instead of being maybe the most mainstream fighter in its niche subgenre of an already niche genre.

MOBAs are impenetrable to new viewers and I agree with Capcom in that SF's easy to understand nature probably helps it with viewers. However, the big thing holding it back in comparison to other popular eSports games is that it isn't free to play.

The lifeblood of these scenes are new, young players. Young people have way more time than money and will dedicate time, if interested, in learning the game even if the game itself doesn't make that easy. Obviously, not every person who touches the game would do this but if you remove the financial barrier of entry you'll dramatically increase the pool of people willing to give the game a shot which dramatically increases the pool of people who will stick with the game.
 
S

Skilletor

Member
mnz said:
But then what's the point of pumping money into esport? If the endgoal isn't to get newcomers into it to grow your base then they should invest it elsewhere.
Click to expand...

I think more stuff for people to do is more important than tutorials. NRS games and Smash games have tons of shit for casuals to do in their games and, as far as I know, have shit for tutorials.

I would think the point would be for people to have lots of ways to have fun playing your games, not just the one mode you have in SF5.
 
B

Blueblur1

Member
mnz said:
I think a lot of people are in a bit of a bubble and don't realise just how different fighting games are to basically any other genre of video games. The only things that come close are games with a big emphasis on animations, but even they don't have the inputs, training methods or the "human element" of a 1 vs 1 in a fighting game.


Yeah that's the bubble lol


Being good at RTS is extremely hard, but understanding what people are doing isn't.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've noticed that some veteran players are in a bubble. I made an analogy about this earlier when I was talking with one of my friends:

The initial phase of learning fighting games is like scaling a massive wall for a new player (I used the Great Wall of China in my example). Its huge and looks like its impossible. Meanwhile veteran players are already at the top and they remember their journey being relatively easy.

That's the difference between fighting games and MOBAs, RTS's and FPS's. Yes, those other genres are difficult to excel at but they don't seem to have the initial massive hurdle fighting games have. That explains MOBAs and RTS's larger Twitch viewership; those games are easy to understand so they attract a larger amount of players therefore there's a larger audience that watches it (and derives enjoyment from understanding it). (There's also the free-to-play aspect of games like League, of course.)

While some non-gamers were sucked into the EVO SFV top 8 due to the human element (see twitter collage from back then), I can't imagine they'll care about anything that doesn't have the same spectacle. It is easier to understand a game where two guys punch and kick each other versus a MOBA but it won't capture everyone's attention. For example, if I'm watching it and I have no idea how difficult it is to pull off everything the players are doing then the tournament matches aren't impressive nor interesting. It just looks like two guys mashing buttons to me (as a casual or non-gamer).

That's what I feel Capcom is glossing over or outright dismissing.
 
M

mooncakes

Member
Neoxon said:
To be fair, SFV isn't exactly a hard game to learn.
Click to expand...

It easy to get into sf5 if you play fighting games for a long time.

If your a newbie, it is difficult to even start. This game with the lack of a good tutorial makes it even harder for them. Also it is 1v1 game. Every lost makes it more discouraging to continue because they can't blame anyone if they lose. In Moba games, you can always use the Option selects and blame it on your own teammates If they lose.

This is what I don't understand. If capcom can make a good fun and balance game, the casuals wouldn't know the difference anyways.
 
P

Pompadour

Member
mnz said:
But then what's the point of pumping money into esport? If the endgoal isn't to get newcomers into it to grow your base then they should invest it elsewhere.
Click to expand...

I think you're incorrectly viewing eSports solely as an investment when it isn't. I imagine all of these events are making money for Capcom, the event organizers, and whoever broadcasts them. They're not just dumping money into eSports in hopes it'll add another million sales one day like they're huge commercials. They are their own business that benefits the game but benefitting the game isn't the reason for their existence.

This is like complaining that Capcom is selling Street Fighter action figures when that money could go into development of Street Fighter V. It's just another revenue stream that also builds the brand.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Tutorials are a waste of time. Even here on NeoGAF, I've seen people complain that Smash Bros is too complicated to play. And these people ignore even the most basic instructions that the game actually does provide. (I vividly remember someone bitching about how he didn't know how to do several things that were explicitly explained in the 1-minute how-to-play demo that runs on the title screen.)

You can't help these people.

"Content" is what gets the casuals on board. And with enough casuals, you'll just gradually be able to convert some of those who have the right mindset over to becoming tournament players as they invest more time into the game.

Hyun Sai said:
I expect them to drop the patch just after Final Round. No way in hell they'll do it few days before, right ?
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I'd just like to point out that I'm on staff for Final Round and am as much in the dark about this as any of you.

After getting word that a PS4 firmware update (which is likely to break converters until patches for those are put out) is dropping tomorrow, the day before the event, we kind of need to know if there's an important SF5 update also coming down the pipe at the same time.
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
mbpm1 said:
I hear Justin Wong is incredibly bad at Dark Souls. And driving.
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Joe is great at Dark Souls though!

Like, everyone gets things differently. I don't think a genre is inherently easier or harder to grasp because the person viewing it has different experiences. Even casuals who have played SF2 when they were little a few times might get SF over seeing a MOBA.
 
M

MrCarter

Member
King Awesome said:
I think you're incorrectly viewing eSports solely as an investment when it isn't. I imagine all of these events are making money for Capcom, the event organizers, and whoever broadcasts them. They're not just dumping money into eSports in hopes it'll add another million sales one day like they're huge commercials. They are their own business that benefits the game but benefitting the game isn't the reason for their existence.

This is like complaining that Capcom is selling Street Fighter action figures when that money could go into development of Street Fighter V. It's just another revenue stream that also builds the brand.
Click to expand...

Good points. Although it seems like Capcom are the sole company to fund e-sports in SFV and make a profit from it, it's also clear that a lot of other companies are capitalising on this type business too. It's true that it's another revenue stream for SFV that builds the brand but I think they could do a whole LOT more to the base game to reinforce that further.
 
S

spazchicken

Member
I've been watching Bonchan videos and practicing some new stuff as well as working on my fundamentals.

You're in trouble Flux. I'm coming for you.
 
B

Blueblur1

Member
King Awesome said:
SFV should have a much better tutorial but claiming that's what is holding back its popularity isn't true. If so, Xrd would be as popular as SFV instead of being maybe the most mainstream fighter in its niche subgenre of an already niche genre.

MOBAs are impenetrable to new viewers and I agree with Capcom in that SF's easy to understand nature probably helps it with viewers. However, the big thing holding it back in comparison to other popular eSports games is that it isn't free to play.

The lifeblood of these scenes are new, young players. Young people have way more time than money and will dedicate time, if interested, in learning the game even if the game itself doesn't make that easy. Obviously, not every person who touches the game would do this but if you remove the financial barrier of entry you'll dramatically increase the pool of people willing to give the game a shot which dramatically increases the pool of people who will stick with the game.
Click to expand...

Xrd's problem is most likely its visuals. I don't think its too farfetched to argue that a more realistic visual style (and violence) helped MKX while the anime (or cartoony if you don't know what anime is) aesthetic doesn't help games like GG Xrd. In regards to your financial barrier argument, SFV could be purchased for less than $30 two months after launch. And young gamers typically get at least a couple games a year so I think there isn't a huge barrier. While being free-to-play definitely would've helped at launch the audience would probably still be disappointed with the game as it is now.

Sixfortyfive said:
Tutorials are a waste of time. Even here on NeoGAF, I've seen people complain that Smash Bros is too complicated to play. And these people ignore even the most basic instructions that the game actually does provide. (I vividly remember someone bitching about how he didn't know how to do several things that were explicitly explained in the 1-minute how-to-play demo that runs on the title screen.)

You can't help these people.

"Content" is what gets the casuals on board. And with enough casuals, you'll just gradually be able to convert some of those who have the right mindset over to becoming tournament players as they invest more time into the game.
Click to expand...

You're always going to have people like that. I think its silly to not even bother because some people are lazy.
 
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