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Street Fighter V |OTVII| New Generation - Connection To Haters Was Lost

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The way they cut off Ryu's legs in S2 is legit heartbreaking tbh. Like his jLK and anti-air jab were for sure bullshit but I thought it was awesome that he was so fucking strong back in S1. He more or less still has his big boy damage but no easy ways to dish it out. Boy needs some reach and a better fireball.

Yup, what they did was wrong. I went from thinking he was complete ass after one day but tried to look on the bright side and thought he might be OK after day two. I haven't touched the game since day 3 or 4 after S2 came out though. And we know where Ryu currently resides right now.

With other characters you can say at least they had this or that. With Ryu he really doesn't have anything good besides max damage punishes. Footsies are weak because of stubby normals, fireball is weak with so many anti fireball moves, he still needs meter to score knockdowns against crouchers, and he doesn't even have the luxury of mashing DP under pressure anymore.

If it were up to me I'd ask for 5 changes
-Take away cancelable Axe kick
-Give him cancelable st. HP at all times
-Give him back his old st. LK
-MK tatsu hits croucher's like the beta
-air tatsu hits crouchers

Basically he gets a reliable footsie button, a reliable special that works all the time, and a gimmick into his Super. He'd just be a little more solid. I think people can handle this, the j. LK would still be gone and this character doesn't have a great mix up or reset game.
 
C6pqXIPVoAEE7Lr.jpg


thumbs up tech spreading to other games Kappa
Haha, I love this.
 

Mr. X

Member
Urien is #1 believers

What are his matchups like? Who does he have an advatange/disadvatange. Back it up with some details and info, instead of saying stHP, crMK and EX Tackle ad nauseam.
 
Paging.... ScraftyDevil (?)

Mika Yoko Harmageddon cosplay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm4JA3t2l9s&feature=share

I have been paged.

Tbh it's stuff like this that makes me wish I went with the PC version over the PS4 one (had to opt for the latter cuz I provide tournament setups though); I've been wanting a costume like this for Mika since before the game even released.

Maybe I'll splurge on the PC version just so I can dick around with mods like I did in Ultra. Perhaps if it goes on deep sale again soon.
 

Sayad

Member
Holy moly I think I just had my first legit lag switcher.

Every time I went for the kill it would lag and I would drop the combo.

Do replays record rollback?
Maybe he just mash buttons during your combos, this can cause some lag/rollbacks sometimes. Should show up in replays.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
Ryu, FANG, Vega, and Alex aren't.

Go1's Chun took out the best Rog.
Momo's Ken took out a Master level Rog.
Art's Sim was bopping Cammy's left and right until he got molly wopped.
Problem X did some damage with Birdie as well.

I think if the last four that I listed were able to receive a few buffs, they could totally do what the above does in some situations or matchups. This game is a few swings away from doing that tbh.

Edit: Oh, and Juri might need some work. Nash, maybe a little as well. But for the most part, system changes can swing things back in their favor.

TBH Juri just needs damage buffs.
 

remz

Member
Yeah i spent a lot of time with juri and tbh she only really needs health or damage buffs, (maybe make ex dp more reliable) give her too much and she'll turn into a monster
 
If someone's gonna try to play FANG still, they HAVE to be good.

Also helps that there are considerably fewer FANG players.

But yeah, he's too good and needs to be nerfed.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
Ucchedavāda;232030256 said:
Speaking of tiers, here's something amusing:
Based on the outcome of 48,000 matches between top 10,000 players (roughly platinum and up) during Season 2, F.A.N.G's average match-up is 5.4 in his favor:


#NerfOnlineFANG
FANG has an almost 8-2 match-up against Juri according to the top 100 scoreboard. And Juri almost has an 8-2 match-up against Laura!
They should really get rid of that thing, it's terrible.

Here is the official one from Capcom: https://game.capcom.com/cfn/sfv/stats/dia
 
FANG has an almost 8-2 match-up against Juri according to the top 100 scoreboard. And Juri almost has an 8-2 match-up against Laura!
They should really get rid of that thing, it's terrible.

Here is the official one from Capcom: https://game.capcom.com/cfn/sfv/stats/dia

The top 100 match-ups are based on very little data, which is why you get those extreme results. For example, the FANG/Juri match is based on just 14 matches, while the Juri/Laura match-up is based on just 27 matches. So if I understand you correctly, and you are saying to get rid of the top 100 match-up table, then I fully agree.

The Capcom one is not so interesting to me, personally, since there is no stratification by rank. So those results are probably heavily skewed towards rookie, bronze, and silver matches, since those ranks account for more than 90% of the player-base.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
https://twitter.com/TheStreetWriter/status/841630795819294722

Hmmmm...

Ucchedavāda;232030742 said:
The top 100 match-ups are based on very little data, which is why you get those extreme results. For example, the FANG/Juri match is based on just 14 matches, while the Juri/Laura match-up is based on just 27 matches. So if I understand you correctly, and you are saying to get rid of the top 100 match-up table, then I fully agree.

The Capcom one is not so interesting to me, personally, since there is no stratification by rank. So those results are probably heavily skewed towards rookie, bronze, and silver matches, since those ranks account for more than 90% of the player-base.
Yeah, it's not great either.

I think a top 1000 data set would be good. Top 100 just doesn't make sense.
 
Ucchedavāda;232023172 said:
Looks like the February character usage statistics have been quietly added to CFN:
http://game.capcom.com/cfn/sfv/stats/usagerate?lang=en

The biggest changes since January appears to be that Akuma usage is down almost 25% (from 13.9% to 10.6%) and that the Ryu army has started recovering (from 11.6% to 12.7%).
Chun with that iconic bottom 5 usage rate lol.
Cross posting from the Fighting Game Headquarters thread.
The character size part was interesting. No wonder the size differences between characters aren't as big as they ought to be.
 
That's why these sideline comments are frustrating. They need to have a person dedicated to saying shit, not "some from WSO, some from this random Tweet, some from John D, etc".

Imagine if half the stuff stated wasn't spread out in addition to having a person at least give a time frame, or a "we're working on it still, hold tight".

It sucks more because Kolin was handled pretty well, but this patch needs more information.
 

ElFly

Member
yeah dunno what to make of any of the data based tier lists

v-league pro top 100 is ridiculous and we all agree on this

but while the top 10k is better it also has some weird things. Dhalsim as the top tier? as a Zangief main I am all for nerfing Dhalsim into the underground but...Dhalsim prolly is not top tier. Also Vega and FANG above Guile and Urien?

The Capcom data top tier looks more like we expect, with Urien, Dictator, Boxer and Laura in the top, but Dhalsim is also really high? so maybe he isn't bad at all and I am wrong on this?. Cammy is really low too for some reason and Alex is almost in the top third which is really odd given everyone's impression of the current character

it is obvious that the data is skewed by the popularity of each character, but I am not sure how to normalize it into something we can use. Maybe we could grab the top 100 players _for each character_ and use that, but obviously that would not add up in the W/L ratio and I would not be surprised if for some characters the bottom of the top 100 players ain't that good anyway

My fav is v-league top 10k but even that I take with a grain of salt
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
Dhalsim is a beginner killer, same with Bison. You alway have to remember that that is still the majority of the players.

The usual tier lists we talk about are about high level play. They are not the same.

edit: I just realised that this doesn't really fit with the "top 10,000" data. Welp.
 

ElFly

Member
Dhalsim is a beginner killer, same with Bison. You alway have to remember that that is still the majority of the players.

The usual tier lists we talk about are about high level play. They are not the same.

edit: I just realised that this doesn't really fit with the "top 10,000" data. Welp.

I think Dhalsim is helped a little by having some _really_ good MUs, like Zangief and Nash

your comment prolly applies to the capcom data tho

on the other hand, given the current player pool, maybe top 10k is a lot more players proportionally so we could be starting to get into newbie killer effect territory too




of course we have to remember that this is all online data. the offline game is different, but given the mechanics of SFV...am I too wrong in saying it is not _that_ different?

but at least the offline/online dichotomy could account for the 3 data systems (VL10k, VL100 and Capcom) agreement of Dhalsim being really good, but him not really performing in offline tournaments. but this is also skewed by character popularity and people's stubbornness.

then again I only play online so the offline performance is mostly a curiosity to me
 
The top 10k tier list made me curious about the actual win-rates per character, since the that would be affected by the prevalence of each character and could affect how tiers are perceived. So I scraped the Season 2 top 10k results, and got the following results:

Code:
Rank  Char       Wins     Matches   Win%
1     dhalsim    52247    94301     55.4
2     mbison     92011    169761    54.2
3     balrog     67569    124863    54.1
4     laura      92794    172121    53.9
5     ibuki      65288    122060    53.5
6     birdie     50977    96336     52.9
7     fang       25534    48434     52.7
8     rashid     59300    113681    52.2
9     cammy      77337    151499    51.0
10    urien      80439    157696    51.0
11    necalli    56725    111352    50.9
12    rmika      40704    80921     50.3
13    guile      52971    106561    49.7
14    zangief    64290    129366    49.7
15    vega       50691    102171    49.6
16    chunli     24768    50540     49.0
17    karin      66099    137969    47.9
18    ken        63871    137884    46.3
19    alex       37290    81097     46.0
20    juri       31281    69265     45.2
21    ryu        57335    129585    44.2
22    nash       25525    58335     43.8
23    akuma      65733    150321    43.7
24    kolin      7640     20719     36.9

Even though characters differ in frequency by up to 10x, the over-all win-rates are close to average match-ups (mostly +/- 1%). So that can't explain the difference between perception and reality.

Another possibility is that online is a "different" game, compared to playing with zero additional latency or roll-back. If so, the differences should be even greater for SFIV, but unfortunately we do not have those results.

Yet another possibility is that these are the actual tiers, and that people are simply bad at estimating these by eye. That is certainly not implausible, since people are generally bad at making such estimates, and since the perceived tier lists are often driven by exceptional results, namely the performance of global top players. That can result in individual performance coloring the perceived strength or weakness of a character.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Ucchedavāda;232037012 said:
Yet another possibility is that these are the actual tiers, and that people are simply bad at estimating these by eye. That is certainly not implausible, since people are generally bad at making such estimates, and since the perceived tier lists are often driven by exceptional results, namely the performance of global top players. That can result in individual performance coloring the perceived strength or weakness of a character.

If you're going to consider this possibility, you can't look at the top 10k. The top 100 would be considerably more relevant. Tier lists revolve around a character's theoretical limits at the highest level of play. They're not relevant in the Platinum range or even Diamond level.

Edit: Oh wait, I didn't read above and missed this post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=232030742&postcount=8402

So, basically, we can't really derive much from these in terms of actual character strength in terms of competitive performance at tournaments right now.
 

ElFly

Member
part of the issue is that, all our whining aside, SFV is a really well balanced game

the only outliers are akuma/kolin (maybe because they are new? but akuma is prolly bad) and the Dhalsim/Zangief MU which ain't easily fixable

so basically a lot of the variance in data based tier level is just statistical noise

If you're going to consider this possibility, you can't look at the top 10k. The top 100 would be considerably more relevant. Tier lists revolve around a character's theoretical limits at the highest level of play. They're not relevant in the Platinum range or even Diamond level.

if we consider tier list to be about perfect play, yeah, it is hard to mesh with the data

but there is a good chance that Capcom balances the game also considering the bottom ranks, so newbies aren't too punished for their newbieness, and anyway, perfect play rarely happens even at high level tournaments
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
Ucchedavāda;232037012 said:
Yet another possibility is that these are the actual tiers, and that people are simply bad at estimating these by eye. That is certainly not implausible, since people are generally bad at making such estimates, and since the perceived tier lists are often driven by exceptional results, namely the performance of global top players. That can result in individual performance coloring the perceived strength or weakness of a character.
I mean, numbers don't lie. These are the actual stats for SFV online. But again, we usually talk about high level play when discussing tier lists.

But in reality, these charts looks more like this, with the third axis being skill level:

Chars with lower skill ceiling drop but might be really good against beginners (Bison) while the opposite rises with more advanced levels of play (Karin, Cammy?). Some blossom somewhere in the middle (Dhalsim?).

This is where balancing fighting games gets hard. You can't do it just for the pro players. You need to look at the whole picture.
I remember Capcom mentioning this during the SF4 era and it was basically their explanation for why charge characters sucked. They saw charge characters as beginner friendly and if they made them any better, they thought they would be too good at that level.
 

MCD250

Member
charge characters will prolly disappear in the future, outside of Guile and maaaybe Boxer

What makes you say that?
I could sort of see it. Ever since Third Strike it feels like they've been somewhat de-emphasizing the presence of "pure" charge characters in favor of folks who have a mixture of charge and motion moves (even if only for their supers). It's now at the point where previous charge characters are getting more motion moves (Bison, Balrog) or abandoning charge moves completely (Vega). It also feels that most charge moves seem to be becoming simpler and that you no longer see more complex charge inputs like say, the delta.
 

ElFly

Member
What makes you say that?

they have moved away from charge characters. Vega is the main example -who before was a pure, or almost pure charge, and now is fireballs/dps-, but also Birdie -who used to be charge + 360s and now is half circles-. Bison is almost pure too -has a fireball-, but, outside of Guile -I think- no one has a charge super. Which makes Guile the only 'pure charge' character, and dunno if he is that beginner friendly

they still hand out charge moves here and there, Necalli for example, but I think Capcom no longer sees charge moves as "beginner friendly". They have eased out the inputs so much that more people can do them. charge moves now are not that beginner friendly anymore as in the SF2 days -particularly as more people play on pads as opposed to sticks-.

I think the next move will be doing away with double inputs for supers, which, contrary to what I am saying, may see some people get charge supers again. but then again, charge moves may be dealed out with caution, cause most of them should have little recovery to compensate, so we will see almost no charge only, or even charge mostly characters, and instead people with one or two charge moves tops
 

MCD250

Member
I could maybe see the introduction of some Mortal Kombat style inputs (charge moves that don't need to be charged, basically, or fireballs that don't require a diagonal input in between doing down and forward/back) at some point in the future.
 
If you're going to consider this possibility, you can't look at the top 10k. The top 100 would be considerably more relevant. Tier lists revolve around a character's theoretical limits at the highest level of play. They're not relevant in the Platinum range or even Diamond level.

Edit: Oh wait, I didn't read above and missed this post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=232030742&postcount=8402

So, basically, we can't really derive much from these in terms of actual character strength in terms of competitive performance at tournaments right now.

The top 100 would probably be a better estimate, except for the lower amounts of data. Here are the same results, but using the top 100 matchups, with the addition of the margin of error at a 95% level of confidence:

Code:
Rank  Char       Wins    Matches Win%
1     balrog     1700    2976    57.1    +/-    1.8
2     mbison     1634    2982    54.8    +/-    1.8
3     necalli    830     1529    54.3    +/-    2.5
4     zangief    931     1736    53.6    +/-    2.3
5     laura      1503    2863    52.5    +/-    1.8
6     ibuki      1681    3273    51.4    +/-    1.7
7     cammy      1157    2262    51.1    +/-    2.1
8     urien      1011    1988    50.9    +/-    2.2
9     nash       453     891     50.8    +/-    3.3
10    rashid     1328    2620    50.7    +/-    1.9
11    guile      735     1466    50.1    +/-    2.6
12    karin      876     1751    50.0    +/-    2.3
13    birdie     1002    2015    49.7    +/-    2.2
14    dhalsim    884     1830    48.3    +/-    2.3
15    akuma      1260    2617    48.1    +/-    1.9
16    chunli     321     691     46.5    +/-    3.7
17    ken        576     1255    45.9    +/-    2.8
18    rmika      531     1162    45.7    +/-    2.9
19    fang       546     1195    45.7    +/-    2.8
20    juri       336     737     45.6    +/-    3.6
21    ryu        739     1678    44.0    +/-    2.4
22    alex       501     1184    42.3    +/-    2.8
23    vega       667     1607    41.5    +/-    2.4
24    kolin      55      206     26.7    +/-    6.0

For comparison, the margin of error was about 0.2-0.4 for the previous results. This mostly agrees with the previous results, though with some notable changes that cannot be explained simply by the uncertainty (e.g. Dhalsim).

However, on top of the increased uncertainty, I think that these results are much more likely to be skewed by individual performance. If only a few people play any given character, then their individual play-style and their individual performance will have a much bigger effect on the overall observed results.


I mean, numbers don't lie. These are the actual stats for SFV online. But again, we usually talk about high level play when discussing tier lists.
The problem is, I think, that we base our estimation of (high-level) tiers on the results of relatively few players. Therefore their individual strengths and weaknesses can skew our perception of the strengths of a given character, and thereby their tier. When somebody is considered the "best" player of a character, then that influences how people perceive that character.

I'm sorta interested in approximating the "true" tier of these characters, though that is of course just a hypothetical, which is why I think that we need more data to wash out individual performance. But of course, as you allude to, when including more data we increase the range of skill-levels considered.

Your point about match-ups being 3 dimensional is well taken, and I am personally happy that I don't have to balance fighting games.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
I wonder if it's because Laura wasn't as much of a focus back in S1 so this wasn't highlighted, but she actually has an S1 Ryu-like j.LK. The thing has 10 active frames, and a peculiar hitbox. You could see it happen once or twice in the Fuudo vs. 801 Strider match where Fuudo did a well spaced cr.MP, and Laura's j.LK beat it out (made me shake my head).

Edit: Wait, I rewatched their match to find the example in question and didn't catch that happen once. I swear it happened in a notable FR match, though.
 
I remember a few people in this thread also complaining about the hitbox on that Laura j.lk back during season 1, but the defense to that was "Look at how broken Ryu's J.lk is!!"

I personally still hate Necalli's jumping mk. Feels so darn ambiguous sometimes.
 
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