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[MCD250]

Personally, I enjoy this season more, because I like more aggressive play, and I like seeing more characters getting airtime. But I think the enjoyment comes from your character and what got changed. But hey, that's the norm in fighting games. One of my friends is dropping GG because he doesn't like the Raven changes, but I think he should adapt since he still enjoys the game.

The thing is, I feel like S1 was already a good blueprint for the sort of streamlined, offensive-focused SF game that (I think) they set out to make when they started development. Minus some glaring issues here and there (AA jabs for instance, or characters like FANG or Mika who definitely needed a tune-up in the balance department), it was a fun, fast-paced, flashy and aggressive game. I liked the design philosophy behind it, focused on forward momentum, reading the opponent and committing to your choices (whether they were good or bad).

S2 theoretically should be more like that, but I think the focus gets sort of muddled by some of the choices they made with the patch. The game feels slower now (though this hasn't really made it more methodical or strategic, it's just..slower, which is less fun) and a lot of throws reset the neutral (though most characters still don't have the range to play a decent footsie game, except when sticking out crush counters). Meanwhile, gray life regenerates so slowly it might as well be chip damage, and it feels like there's an abundance of 50/50 situations or at least characters who thrive in them (mindgames and reading the opponent can be fun, but not so much when you just straight up have to guess every time). I feel like there's also a weird disconnect between the characters who are top tier and the characters who aren't. In S1, as in all fighting games, there were top tiers, low tiers and characters who fit in a couple of categories in between. The tiers were relatively close together though, which made the game feel fairly decently balanced (with a couple of glaring exceptions, of course) for a first iteration. In S2 it feels like the non-top tiers are probably more balanced amongst themselves than the non-top tiers of S1 were, but the gap between them and the top tiers is bigger now. If that makes sense.

I dunno, like...S2 mostly feels like a weird, mutant version of S1, as opposed to a refinement of it. It feels like a bunch of sideways changes as opposed to improvements. Maybe the meta just needs to mature or something, I dunno. But I feel like if they'd just focused on fixing things rather than changing them the experience wouls have been much better.

 

[sixteen-bit]

ICYMI: Red Bul Kumite's first 4 participants

https://twitter.com/redbullesports/status/831154055217033217
http://www.redbull.com/en/esports/stories/1331844628242/red-bull-kumite-2017-esports-info

RB
PrBalrog
Tokido
Xiao Hai

I always love the production values of this. Looking forward to the stream.

 

[TheSpoiler]

The thing is, I feel like S1 was already a good blueprint for the sort of streamlined, offensive-focused SF game that (I think) they set out to make when they started development. Minus some glaring issues here and there (AA jabs for instance, or characters like FANG or Mika who definitely needed a tune-up in the balance department), it was a fun, fast-paced, flashy and aggressive game. I liked the design philosophy behind it, focused on forward momentum, reading the opponent and committing to your choices (whether they were good or bad).

S2 theoretically should be more like that, but I think the focus gets sort of muddled by some of the choices they made with the patch. The game feels slower now (though this hasn't really made it more methodical or strategic, it's just..slower, which is less fun) and a lot of throws reset the neutral (though most characters still don't have the range to play a decent footsie game, except when sticking out crush counters). Meanwhile, gray life regenerates so slowly it might as well be chip damage, and it feels like there's an abundance of 50/50 situations or at least characters who thrive in them (mindgames and reading the opponent can be fun, but not so much when you just straight up have to guess every time). I feel like there's also a weird disconnect between the characters who are top tier and the characters who aren't. In S1, as in all fighting games, there were top tiers, low tiers and characters who fit in a couple of categories in between. The tiers were relatively close together though, which made the game feel fairly decently balanced (with a couple of glaring exceptions, of course) for a first iteration). In S2 it feels like the non-top tiers are probably more balanced amongst themselves than the non-top tiers of S1 were, but the gap between them and the top tiers is bigger. If that makes sense.

I dunno, like...S2 mostly feels like a weird, mutant version of S1, as opposed to a refinement of it. It feels like a bunch of sideways changes as opposed to improvements. Maybe the meta just needs to mature or something, I dunno. But I feel like if they'd just focused on fixing things rather than changing them the experience wouls have been much better.

I feel you. One of the biggest problems I have is that it's too offensive. I thought we'd get defensive options to align with all the aggression, but then they toned down v-reversals. SFV has always been about spacing over things like straight backdashes, so it's more about not putting yourself in situations over, say, FADCing and all that. But v-reversals need to return to their normal place, and white life needs to find a middle ground. Those are two massive changes that'd help considerably.

The game does feel slower though. I supposed that's to compensate for not messing with the input lag, but makes things more sluggish. Though at some level, it makes more strategic than S1, because you are able to punish more things, but I feel like that's something people on a higher level can graph to more often. But I do want grey life to stay similar (if not at a midway point) because that shit is making dudes like Bison and Rashid more relevant.

In terms of top tiers, there's a weird disconnect, but I think it's less bullshitty as before. The problem is the top tiers can come back and do shit they shouldn't be able to do so quickly compared to the rest of the cast, and those things mean people have to lab it up to see how they can avoid eating duff city or getting pushed through AR setups as opposed to Ryu just hitting the shit out of you without gimmicks. So to me, it feels like they are stronger because they have things that make them stronger, not necessarily in a linear pathway. Chun was good on paper and in game, but it was simplistic as to why she was good. But that being said, none of the top tiers feel as bad as fighting Chun to me. Maybe it's dependent on who you play, but I can bully most Uriens and then space them out once I see they trigger ready.

But that's fighting games for ya. The first few months a balance patch are painful. After a few months, some tournaments, and more tech being revealed, things shift. Which of course is still no guarantee that it'll be better, but it's possible things can get smoothed out. Tekken 7 got a lot of heat on release, but even before FR things died down and it wasn't so bad (though it still had problems, don't get me wrong).

I think the problem with S2 is Capcom trying to appeal to too many people in my mind. Like all these changes are so drastic and vast because so many people want so many different things. And already with the new patch coming, nobody can really agree upon what should be standard save for buffing the low tier boyz. The lack of aggression in S1 made some people say it was boring, so they wanted more hype things, and they went overboard by letting people get steamrolled too much. I just want a few more shifts here and there and to let the meta grow. That's it. With a few tweaks, it can get back on that path (with some things being still problematic, but nothing's perfect), but I fear history will repeat itself

 

[ElFly]

I may agree that the S2 top tier is farther away from the rest than the S1 top tier. While the S1 top tier was an echelon above everyone else, at least it felt they had to work for it. Chun was highly technical, Mika needed the corner -even if she had the tools to get there-, Necalli depended on getting V-bar fast. Maybe the rest I cannot excuse but still

but I feel that a good Urien and Guile are doing less technical work now than S1 Chun did. sure, they are still technical challenges, but they aren't on the level of S1 Chun, they are good everywhere unlike Mika and, while their V-Triggers are good, they aren't as good as Necalli and they can still survive without them

 

[J_Macgrady]

Might as well get this shit started.

Tekken is a jugglefest
Injustice 2 meta is busted due to overpatching
Marvel is a 1 player game once you get hit
Ultra Street Fighter 2 should just be Super Turbo
GG is (air) dash and mash
BB is for weebs
Virtua Fighter is for empty chairs
Gundam "neutral" is just beamspam
SFV is dash and mash/Sleep Fighter V/Unga Bunga V
KOF is hop and mash.

Et al.

What's funny is that I started playing KOF14 like that thinking it was gonna get me somewhere lol. Got my ass whooped online doing that. The fundamentals don't change.

 

[Edzi]

Inj 2, Tekken 7 or KoF XIV seem like the only replacements we have (that aren't anime). And MvC: I when it drops.

Literally none of those are replacements to SF for most people.

 

[Skilletor]

Literally none of those are replacements to SF for most people.

There is nothing like SF. That's why people bitch about it and still play. lol

 

[lucebuce12]

Literally none of those are replacements to SF for most people.

Exactly. Which is why if this was any other fighting game, people would have dropped it and continued on their merry way.

but this is SF.

 

[mbpm1]

V-Reversal nerf was also kind of idiotic to me, because now outside of like five characters it's ass and it costs so much to use. I haven't even played much Season 2, but since I played as Cammy it wouldn't be much different. I actually was beginning to learn Vega but now I don't even think it's worth it and he doesn't exactly help me on the rare 4-6 match for Cammy, hell if she even has an 4-6s lol

I can react to vega's v-reversal with demon flip a lot of the time. It's funny

 

[TheSpoiler]

I may agree that the S2 top tier is farther away from the rest than the S1 top tier. While the S1 top tier was an echelon above everyone else, at least it felt they had to work for it. Chun was highly technical, Mika needed the corner -even if she had the tools to get there-, Necalli depended on getting V-bar fast. Maybe the rest I cannot excuse but still

but I feel that a good Urien and Guile are doing less technical work now than S1 Chun did. sure, they are still technical challenges, but they aren't on the level of S1 Chun, they are good everywhere unlike Mika and, while their V-Triggers are good, they aren't as good as Necalli and they can still survive without them

Someone said Laura, Guile, Urien, and Balrog play a different game due to their triggers, and that does make sense. Ryu, Ken, Chun, and co. were just busted because they were busted and not because they'd hit that trigger and put you through hell.

I'm not against them having those tools, but they shouldn't be as powerful as they are right now. Lessen Urien's buttons, lower Rog's damage a bit, hit Laura in a few areas, and Guile too. Maybe make them work harder when they hit that trigger. Don't like nerfs? Too bad, that's how the game stays equalized and fun. They can still be enjoyable so long as they aren't steamrolling everyone every CPT.

Exactly. Which is why if this was any other fighting game, people would have dropped it and continued on their merry way.

but this is SF.

That's not completely true. While there isn't anything like SF, you can only replace a few of those games. Injustice 2 with what, MKXL? I doubt most of the people are gonna play that game anyway since NRS boyz move on to the next game. Smash Wii U people can go to Melee, but that's about it. What about KOF? Nothing plays like KOF in my eyes, at least on the modern scale. Can't drop Marvel because none of the games play like that. Tekken boyz can drop their game if a new SC comes, but it only shares a few differences. And USF2 is not a replacement for SFV.

I don't think people need to find replacements that are similar to SF. They just need to find new games that suit them and deal with the fact that most games aren't going to have direct areas to switch on unless you wanna start diving into old games.

 

[direct_quote]

People bitched about SF4 all the time too. Nothing ever changes.

 

[lucebuce12]

That's not completely true. While there isn't anything like SF, you can only replace a few of those games. Injustice 2 with what, MKXL? I doubt most of the people are gonna play that game anyway since NRS boyz move on to the next game. Smash Wii U people can go to Melee, but that's about it. What about KOF? Nothing plays like KOF in my eyes, at least on the modern scale. Can't drop Marvel because none of the games play like that. Tekken boyz can drop their game if a new SC comes, but it only shares a few differences. And USF2 is not a replacement for SFV.

It's not just playstyles but the game actually working online (because in this day and age, that's more important than ever)

 

[stn]

People bitched about SF4 all the time too. Nothing ever changes.

I still bitch about SF4 but also still play it. I also bitch about SF5 but still play it. Its one of those things where there's nothing else like SF, and I have to play it. It took me approximately 120 hours of SF4 to find a way to enjoy it. And as much as I enjoy MKX, KOF14, and will enjoy Injustice 2, none of them are SF.

 

[ElFly]

Someone said Laura, Guile, Urien, and Balrog play a different game due to their triggers, and that does make sense. Ryu, Ken, Chun, and co. were just busted because they were busted and not because they'd hit that trigger and put you through hell.

dunno. in V-triggerless SFV, Laura, Guile and Urien are still really good. Maybe not top tier, and their V-trigger def push them over the top, but they are good. I can see it with Balrog

dunno about S1 Chun. her V-Trigger was legit

 

[Sayad]

I can react to vega's v-reversal with demon flip a lot of the time. It's funny

Using Vega v-reversal outside guaranteed punishes is just silly, he's better off just sticking out his 3 framer into v-trigger.

 

[Gr1mLock]

People bitched about SF4 all the time too. Nothing ever changes.

"This isn't street fighter" - everything after ST.

 

[ElFly]

"This isn't street fighter" - everything after ST.

bitch please, what's this thing about "super" moves they added? pure SNK crap should stay in SNK

 

[Dahbomb]

People bitched about SF4 all the time too. Nothing ever changes.

I like SFV way more than SF4.

People are already forgetting how badly Capcom messed up with SF4 AE. The twins and Fei Long with their purposely designed over powered characters to make villains that people can root against.

This was one of the "hypest" moments of AE... WOW look at all that NEUTRAL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLORt8DUHjE

 

[TheSpoiler]

People bitch about fighting games all the time. The bigger, the more it seems like it's a problem. People have bitched about SF for years. And man, Tekken got that shit too, even 3 which is held in high regard.

SFEX would have been tore apart if social media was a thing back then and forums were bigger.

It's not just playstyles but the game actually working online (because in this day and age, that's more important than ever)

GG's online is good though!

 

[lucebuce12]

I often think to myself "Man, I should really start playing KI more seriously" then I look at the roster and think of how much of a struggle it'd be to git gud, and that there's probably a new KI on the way anyway.

Then I go back to SF5 and I either never find a match or it's a lag fest. Then repeat.

GG's online is good though!

Fair enough. If SF5 had MKXL/Killer Instinct level of netcode, then you'd best believe I would never stop playing it even with the load times. But online has just become such a tedious experience for me that I just don't want to play and sadly I can't play offline against other players, mainly because there are no other players for me to play against.

 

[MrCarter]

People bitched about SF4 all the time too. Nothing ever changes.

I dunno, I'm at a point where I enjoy what I want to enjoy and fuck everyone else. Life is too short and precious to be wasting time and energy on things you don't like or think will never improve and as there is an abundance of fighting games out there and many more on the horizon, people should do themselves a favour and go explore. You might be surprised.

 

[Gr1mLock]

bitch please, what's this thing about "super" moves they added? pure SNK crap should stay in SNK

All down hill after air tatsus.

 

[Pompadour]

GG's online is good though!

It's not bad but SFV has the better online even with all its problems. I guess if you're only interested in Battle Lounges/lobbies then GG is the way to go because lobbies in V are terrible and everything but lobbies in GG is impossible to find a decent match in.

 

[MCD250]

Re: the top tiers, I kinda feel like the things that make someone top tier in S2 are different than the things that made the top tiers in S1. Like it feels like in S1 you had a good chance of being top tier if you had most of the good tools (3f normal, invincible reversal, good walk speed, good throw range, good corner carry, good damage conversion). There were maybe a few exceptions to this, but I feel like most of the characters that everyone considered the best (Ryu, Ken, Cammy, Karin, Necalli, etc.) had these things in common. In S2 I feel like the measure of top tier is basically how easily the character can put you in a 50/50 and get good damage off of that. I feel like Laura, Balrog and Urien really thrive off of that. Guile is basically a walking fortress who can expand his walls to the point of being oppressive if he feels like it, and Cammy kinda feels like a S1 top tier that snuck in.

Gief is basically a walking 50/50 generator. I'm not convinced the Japanese are wrong when they say this might be his year.

 

[ScraftyDevil]

I often think to myself "Man, I should really start playing KI more seriously" then I look at the roster and think of how much of a struggle it'd be to git gud, and that there's probably a new KI on the way anyway.

My problem with KI is its playerbase rather than the game itself.

I wouldn't call myself great or even good at the game, yet I've made it to Killer thrice on the merit of Tusk footsies and some extremely basic combos alone. I don't even know how to do manuals yet find myself landing 70%+ combos because opponents try and mash out of them instead of breaking properly.

Maybe it's just my weird luck at play, but it just doesn't feel, I dunno, challenging(?) to play KI online most of the time, whereas I'm stuck at Gold and regularly get my butt kicked by players below my level in SFV. Entirely anecdotal (and perhaps it's simply much easier to reach KI's upper echelon in general), but that's my rationale for why I get burned out on KI really quickly whenever I go to play it. Perhaps having some local competition would mitigate my woes.

 

[TheSpoiler]

dunno. in V-triggerless SFV, Laura, Guile and Urien are still really good. Maybe not top tier, and their V-trigger def push them over the top, but they are good. I can see it with Balrog

dunno about S1 Chun. her V-Trigger was legit

Yeah, but at the same time, I think people would have less of an issue if their v-triggers weren't so good. Laura withstanding.

I often think to myself "Man, I should really start playing KI more seriously" then I look at the roster and think of how much of a struggle it'd be to git gud, and that there's probably a new KI on the way anyway.

Then I go back to SF5 and I either never find a match or it's a lag fest. Then repeat.
Fair enough. If SF5 had MKXL/Killer Instinct level of netcode, then you'd best believe I would never stop playing it even with the load times. But online has just become such a tedious experience for me that I just don't want to play and sadly I can't play offline against other players, mainly because there are no other players for me to play against.

That sucks man. I hope Injustice 2 pairs better. Hopefully the patch fixes things for those online based. Especially for those who just want to enjoy the goddamn game.

It's not bad but SFV has the better online even with all its problems. I guess if you're only interested in Battle Lounges/lobbies then GG is the way to go because lobbies in V are terrible and everything but lobbies in GG is impossible to find a decent match in.

I've only played a few matches but I always hear GG having decent online. But I could be wrong. KOF had shit online at launch. I haven't played in a while, but it wasn't that great.

 

[lucebuce12]

My problem with KI is its playerbase rather than the game itself.

I wouldn't call myself great or even good at the game, yet I've made it to Killer thrice on the merit of Tusk footsies and some extremely basic combos alone. I don't even know how to do manuals yet find myself landing 70%+ combos because opponents try and mash out of them instead of breaking properly.

Maybe it's just my weird luck at play, but it just doesn't feel, I dunno, challenging(?) to play KI online most of the time, whereas I'm stuck at Gold and regularly get my butt kicked by players below my level in SFV. Entirely anecdotal (and perhaps it's simply much easier to reach KI's upper echelon in general), but that's my rationale for why I get burned out on KI really quickly whenever I go to play it. Perhaps having some local competition would mitigate my woes.

I do also have a fundamental problem with KI, in the combo system. I just feel like if I made the right call then I should be able to get guaranteed damage on someone in that instance, but that's never the case in KI.

Also it's a game that becomes more and more fun the longer the set you play because the mindgames are so damn real and only truly become a factor in long sessions.

That sucks man. I hope Injustice 2 pairs better. Hopefully the patch fixes things for those online based. Especially for those who just want to enjoy the goddamn game.
I've only played a few matches but I always hear GG having decent online. But I could be wrong. KOF had shit online at launch. I haven't played in a while, but it wasn't that great.

I was a big fan of the original Injustice, and I2 is fixing almost all the problems that the original had in terms of gameplay and adding some serious variety in terms of characters. Not to mention it looks AMAZING so yeah, I'm pretty hyped for it. And the amazing netcode is like the cherry on top.

GG's online is pretty good but you HAVE to use the lobby system because the matchmaking is busted. It uses delay based netcode so obviously it'll become less playable the higher the ping goes. Though playing in the same country/same side of the continent should be fine.

 

[mbpm1]

People will always complain. Maybe the problem is that the expectations go up so people are more disappointed with each release.

 

[Dahbomb]

People will always complain. Maybe the problem is that the expectations go up so people are more disappointed with each release.

I really do think expectations have changed a lot since before SF4.

If Capcom had released SFV instead of SF4 at that time then it would have received much better. Expectations and standards have changed... a lot of better fighting games have come out since SF4. But at the same time SFV SHOULD have been a lot better than it currently is because people look to Capcom to push the genre forward. SF4 did do that to its credit and it brought in a new era of fighting games... SFV didn't really do that.

 

[Pompadour]

If Capcom still had a foothold in the arcade industry we would have seen SFV in arcades first. If that were to have happened the console version would have launched with much more content (including arcade mode) and 80% of the complaints would have never happened. Aside from the shitty online, SFV at launch looked very similar to the arcade releases of many new fighting games.

 

[ScraftyDevil]

I do also have a fundamental problem with KI, in the combo system. I just feel like if I made the right call then I should be able to get guaranteed damage on someone in that instance, but that's never the case in KI.

Also it's a game that becomes more and more fun the longer the set you play because the mindgames are so damn real and only truly become a factor in long sessions.

Yeah, I've noticed that against the rare skilled opponent there's no real point in going for long combos that'll get broken over quick, guaranteed damage. Shadow moves as analogues for both EX specials and supers also kinda rubs me the wrong way, especially in that so many of them are so easy to break that they're nigh-unusable outside of lockout combos.

I do love how unique every character feels though, even if that makes it very difficult to casually pick up and play other fighters without practicing setups. It's awesome that characters as disparate as Kan-Ra and Aganos can coexist in the same game.

 

[mbpm1]

On one hand: ESPN at evo. Download complete. First us champ! Guile! Cpt! Crush counters. Rashidooo

On the other hand: Online loading screens. Rollback. 50/50 game. Stubby normals and neutral. Survival mode. Servers. Rootkit. Juri theme.

Good and bad

 

[Village]

"This isn't street fighter" - everything after ST.

I feel like the only time that was actually applicable was 3 and ex .

Ex is... EX

and 3rd strike is a cool SNK game that has street fighter characters in it.

 

[ElFly]

Gief is basically a walking 50/50 generator. I'm not convinced the Japanese are wrong when they say this might be his year.

Gief is really good, make no mistake

his problem is that he still has really bad MUs against some of the top tiers, one bad character and one mediocre character so you will be playing a backup character half the time

could see a nuckledu situation where someone mains two characters, one of them Gief, and gets some decent wins

 

[lucebuce12]

Gief is really good, make no mistake

his problem is that he still has really bad MUs against some of the top tiers, one bad character and one mediocre character so you will be playing a backup character half the time

Soooo..... he's Gief.

 

[ElFly]

Soooo..... he's Gief.

well yeah

but so far there has never been a year of gief -except maybe the first year of A3- which is why I feel this whole thing is overblown

 

[lucebuce12]

There is definitely going to be 1, maybe 2 giefs that do absolutely insane but it's not gonna be a S1 chun or Nash situation where there are like million different players getting top 8s with those characters.

 

[MCD250]

Stupendous and Itazan are gonna eat this season.

I was gonna say Snake too but I feel like I haven't seen his Gief in a minute.

 

[mnz]

Where the hell is Snake Eyez? I thought this was his full time job, but you barely ever see him, not even at WNF.

 

[mbpm1]

Snake only plays Akuma now anyway

 

[Edzi]

Where the hell is Snake Eyez? I thought this was his full time job, but you barely ever see him, not even at WNF.

Tbh, he's kinda washed up now. Dude had a mediocre Gief in S1 and has a mediocre Akuma in S2.

 

[mnz]

Still a Red Bull sponsored player. Not sure what that means financially, but I suspect it's one of the better deals worldwide.

 

[ColonialHawk]

Secret FANG Tech

Spoiler

The longer pauses are the points where my friend was telling me to "Explain that!" I was playing FANG and I could've done better editing.

 

[lucebuce12]

Secret FANG Tech

Spoiler

The longer pauses are the points where my friend was telling me to "Explain that!" I was playing FANG and I could've done better editing.

That CA is legit good as a reversal option, more so than others because it doesn't have a freeze before it becomes active. Also good for Y.O.L.O plays.

 

[ElFly]

Snake only plays Akuma now anyway

the downest of trades

 

[The Lone Dragon]

Poongko having a war with a Nash in Battle Lounge currently. Making Nash look good:
https://www.twitch.tv/poongkotv

 

[TheSpoiler]

Tfw they don't run it back after you dash up grab them the whole match

 

[HardRojo]

15 minutes, I've yet to play a match because the game asked me to play 3 bar matches 3 times, not gonna happen, 4 or better. It's weird because I never had problems finding matches back in the beta, in fact I think it was beta 2 where I could hardly train because it kept matching me up against someone.
Edit: Found a 4 bar match!

 

[mooncakes]

The face of a youthful Ibuki filled with hope and optimism.

 

[The Lone Dragon]

But at the same time SFV SHOULD have been a lot better than it currently is because people look to Capcom to push the genre forward.

SF5 has been pushing the genre forward, in terms of eSports and exposure.
This is actually very important, because every other fighting game benefits from that exposure, not just SF5.

Also, every other franchise has really stepped up their "competitive league" efforts because of CPT...and that's great for the health/longevity of the genre.

People don't treat CPT as part of the game, when it really is an integral part of SF5's overall experience...not just for the pros, but for the community Capcom is trying to develop around the game.