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[mnz]

Here's the post: http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/blog/2016/12/04/street-fighter-v-2017-season-our-goal

It's literally called "our goal" lol. But I guess it could be much more specific.

 

[CountBlack]

They did talk about their vision in that season 2 blogpost. They wanted to see more use of the V-system, which is the thing that makes characters unique and they wanted more neutral.

Wanted more neutral game by cutting off all proximity normals and making the current normals stubby as hell outside of like 2-3 characters lol.

 

[Edzi]

They did talk about their vision in that season 2 blogpost. They wanted to see more use of the V-system, which is the thing that makes characters unique and they wanted more neutral.

Isn't V-Reversal part of the V system? Why would they nerf that?

Also, if S2 is the result of them consciously trying to bring in more neutral, then lol.

 

[KidA Seven]

Here's the post: http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/blog/2016/12/04/street-fighter-v-2017-season-our-goal

It's literally called "our goal" lol. But I guess it could be much more specific.

Exactly, so they want characters to be more unique, yet they remove dps. They make medium attacks pretty uniform. The neutral tools in the game make characters perform more similar to each other.

We need more of that from Capcom so they can get better criticism from top players in a lot more areas. I mean, they don't have to. I just think it would make it easier for them to get better criticism.

 

[BadWolf]

That's another thing. Last Topanga league for USF4 I was scrambling all over youtube looking for the matches and now I have them all available to watch and I couldn't care less to see them lol

Ditto, was hunting for stream/YT links so much before but this time they are easily available and I couldn't care less.

I watched competitive SFIV for years and years without actually having ever played the game.

Less than a year into SFV's life and I barely tune in.

I think it's fair to say that SFV is the most restrictive 2d fighting game we've seen in a long time. I'm not sure why they thought that was a good idea.

We can watch that damn shimmy only so many times.

 

[Skilletor]

I think it's fair to say that SFV is the most restrictive 2d fighting game we've seen in a long time. I'm not sure why they thought that was a good idea.

I mean...People have been complaining for years about how difficult it was to play SF4. How hard parries are in SF3.

This is a direct response to the things people have been complaining about for like 20 years.

 

[CountBlack]

I mean...People have been complaining for years about how difficult it was to play SF4. How hard parries are in SF3.

This is a direct response to the things people have been complaining about for like 20 years.

The difficulty in execution and parries are what made both games so impressive to watch and play. In V.. there's neither lol.

 

[spazchicken]

You need to learn how to hit confirm. I would go into training, set block to random and cover your eyes and listen to the sfx.

Nash's St.LK is his best wake up button, never wake up Genocide Cutter. If your opponent miss time their meaty, you can use Nash's target combo. Also it beats Urien Knee Drop.

When playing against a character like Balrog, Knee Bazooka will beat his Dash Punch and is +1 on CH.

For meaties, always end your combo with a M Scythe mid screen. On both quick rises, you can dash forward and use F.HK. If your opponent like pressing buttons then you can do something like this...

And if they do not quick rise after the step kick, you can dash forward and meaty with St.lk and combo it off with MP. You also want to use St.LK as a meaty tool on knock down and you can use it to tick throw.


Nash's CA him at ADV. You can dash forward grab or B.MK. What I always do is walk slightly forward for a meaty overhead, whiff Cr.Lk and do a sweep. The success rate is 95%

Thanks for taking the time to give me some pointers. That sound effects tip and how to practice it is particularly mind blowing as is the LK on wakeup. I've had the game since launch but only get to play around five sets every other day for the last six months. I actually feel a little ashamed that I'm not better and more knowledgeable than I feel I should be by now.

I did know about Bazooka Knee killing Balrog's Dash Punch, found it out by accident. It also makes a good AA, against Gold and down anyway. I think jumping LK kills it though. I've had some Mikas and Ryus catch on and shut it down. I need to go to training with that as well and see for sure. I had no idea it was +1 on CH.

I only use step kick as a poke and now I see that there is so much more to the move than that. Man this is some great information. These tips will definitely boost my pressure game.

All of you guys, thank you. Watch for me at EVO top 8 this year LOL

 

[Producer]

sfv is a good game

 

[Skilletor]

The difficulty in execution and parries are what made both games so impressive to watch and play. In V.. there's neither lol.

I don't disagree, but surely everybody can see why they approached SF5 the way they did.

I enjoy SF5, though. It's way more in line, execution wise, with previous SFs. I think the problem with the neutral is the way knockdowns work and the stubby normals. Fix those, and I think most of my issues with the gameplay disappear.

I miss exectuion, but imo, SF has always been one of the easiest fighters to play. SF4 is an outlier. SF3 is hella easy (I don't think parries are hard). Alpha series aren't combo reliant, neither is ST. SF has never been about combos until SF4. The problem is they removed strong neutral tools, which IS what SF should be about.

 

[KidA Seven]

I mean...People have been complaining for years about how difficult it was to play SF4. How hard parries are in SF3.

This is a direct response to the things people have been complaining about for like 20 years.

I didn't just mean execution. It's like they restricted tools and ways to play characters. For example, Akuma can only throw air fireballs when jumping forward. Why did they remove the jump back fireball? Infiltration played this slippery Nash style in season 1. They nerfed the tools to play that style. I guess ryu's fireballs are part of that complaint too and stubby normals kind of forcing you to get in close to the opponent.

It's like they really want you to play a certain way.

 

[Skilletor]

I didn't just mean execution. It's like they restricted tools and ways to play characters. For example, Akuma can only throw air fireballs when jumping forward. Why did they remove the jump back fireball? Infiltration played this slippery Nash style in season 1. They nerfed the tools to play that style. I guess ryu's fireballs are part of that complaint too and stubby normals kind of forcing you to get in close to the opponent.

It's like they really want you to play a certain way.

eSports era.

Definitely don't agree with these changes, but when you're trying to appeal to the people watching streams as much as playing, these things happen. Personally think it's stuff like Nash getting the nerf bat so hard is stupid.

I agree with you for sure. But I get it, though. I think SF5 is dead after this year if they don't rollback on that design philosophy.

Maybe not dead, but MvC:I will probably be the game pushes over SF5 if nothing changes.

 

[mnz]

I feel like pros are saying they catered to casuals and casuals think they made the game for pros. It's kind of an absurd situation where they might've only satisfied the middlle ground. Which would be me, I guess...

 

[TheSpoiler]

I think what Capcom did was more in response to how fighting games have been evolving over the past few years. It's less about sitting in the lab and more about straight up fighting people. They say that's their mentality, but that's been going on this whole generation in fighting games. Tekken, KOF, and from what I understand with GG, have all leaned towards trying to get players to spend less time learning arbitrary links and hopping execution barriers and straight into the match.

Making normals less stubby would help SFV's netutral game, but I think letting every single character compensate for their stubbiness would help. This is mostly because I don't believe Capcom is going to start extending hitboxes, but like I said before, Ryu was fun because despite his stubby ass reach, he did big boy damage and was rewarded for getting in. A little too much, but now it's on the opposite side of the spectrum and it's no longer as fun to play with him.

And re: Solar about patches - I think one or two patches in the season wouldn't hurt if there are glaring issues. Like, if they decide to throw one more patch out during the CPT that helps normalize everyone, I'd be fine with that, but only so far as to normalize them and not do huge, sweeping changes to everyone. Maybe focus on making characters more equal during the CPT run and THEN make massive shifts at the end of the year, along with a month long beta.

sfv is a good game

Take that shit to r/kappa, please.

I didn't just mean execution. It's like they restricted tools and ways to play characters. For example, Akuma can only throw air fireballs when jumping forward. Why did they remove the jump back fireball? Infiltration played this slippery Nash style in season 1. They nerfed the tools to play that style. I guess ryu's fireballs are part of that complaint too and stubby normals kind of forcing you to get in close to the opponent.

It's like they really want you to play a certain way.

Well, concerning Akuma's fireballs, you build up 40 points of stun on hit. And with application to his moveset, they want you to stay close (which is why the closer you are, the more stun you get off a fireball). I really don't want Akuma's playing lame like in SF4 where it was air fireballs all day. That's restricting, but for the purpose of fun and the other player's sanity, and I don't mind that. Furthermore, SF4 had the problem of too much optmization, where characters COULD be played different ways but the best way was obvious and you'd be handicapping yourself to not do so. At least then, the execution barrier to get there provided SF4 some time before it reached that point, and having different iterations helped out a ton.

What I do mind is Ryu. He gets nothing in return. No extra damage on his fireballs, no extra damage despite stubby normals. None of that.

 

[stn]

I don't mind low execution requirements. I know there are certain characters I would have played in USF4, like Viper, if I didn't have to grind out inputs and wreck my fingers on the 360 d-pad for hours. I'd much rather have difficulty in applying a instant burn kick than actually executing it. Know what I mean?

Though I will say I felt so good when I figured out how to do the Mishima wave dash cancels in SFxT.

 

[CountBlack]

I don't disagree, but surely everybody can see why they approached SF5 the way they did.

I enjoy SF5, though. It's way more in line, execution wise, with previous SFs. I think the problem with the neutral is the way knockdowns work and the stubby normals. Fix those, and I think most of my issues with the gameplay disappear.

I miss exectuion, but imo, SF has always been one of the easiest fighters to play. SF4 is an outlier. SF3 is hella easy (I don't think parries are hard). Alpha series aren't combo reliant, neither is ST. SF has never been about combos until SF4. The problem is they removed strong neutral tools, which IS what SF should be about.

I feel like the approach to SFV was a simpler game with a strong importance on the ground game.. then the ground game ended being less important than the past two SF games because you have a higher chance at winning if you decide to take flight.

I wouldn't say this is inline with previous SF's (3s/ST) execution wise in regards to how easy the shortcuts are and the input buffer. look at this b. The only impressive combo I can remember seeing and being :wow'd: by is Filthie Rich hitting a Urien headbutt loop in a tournament match. Since then nada.

I miss practicing execution in training mode for hours lol. Learning how to piano with Honda to end on HP for HHS, then having to learn how to do it with Decapre ending on LP. It took me months to get ex MGU -> U2 down properly. The new Sako combo is being able to hit 3 LP's in one combo and its grown incredibly stale.

I was really hoping they'd do what Arcsys did and add new attacks into the game for each character going into S2 or new V-Skills or V-Triggers. absolutely nothing lmao.

Also, Vanilla SF4 Ryu's cr.MK was one of my favourite normals ever in the series.. now it's all struggle normals from here unless you use Chun or Cammy lol

 

[mnz]

The neutral in V is also dominated by the priority and Crush Counter system. It's like SF4 was fencing and V is swinging sledgehammers. They could probably touch that at some point, but it would basically become a different game.

 

[mbpm1]

It's not just safe, it's +2 for some stupid reason. I really think that was an error. It makes no sense.

I still remember when they made Guy's EX Tatsu 2 frame startup in USF4 accidentally. Fun times

 

[ScraftyDevil]

Maybe not dead, but MvC:I will probably be the game pushes over SF5 if nothing changes.

But Skilletor! Didn't you hear that MvCi is dead on arrival because it doesn't have assists? OBVIOUSLY Capcom is gonna be dethroned as the defacto eSports fighting game and Mortal Kombat X will finally take its rightful place at th-

Oh...

Jokes aside, I do think SFV needs to make a few tweaks in order to appeal to the masses. Anecdotally, the friends I had over to watch the EVO Top 8 this year were much more sedate than they were during the SFIV era, even though they all feel that SFV is more fun to play.

Perhaps some new Critical Arts or V-Triggers could help spice things up for spectators, or even just a few new characters with fresh playstyles to dilute the rushdown-focused meta.

 

[mbpm1]

I stumbled across a Topanga league Daigo (SF4, E. Ryu) compilation I had saved on my HDD and man, the hype and excitement was on a whole different level compared to SFV.

Even "boring" SF4 Matches have an element of fun I rarely get from SFV

I still come back to slogfests like this

 

[mbpm1]

I mean...People have been complaining for years about how difficult it was to play SF4. How hard parries are in SF3.

This is a direct response to the things people have been complaining about for like 20 years.

It's more like...how do you say it.

People wanted a lower skill entry floor but not a lower skill ceiling

 

[Producer]

Maybe not dead, but MvC:I will probably be the game pushes over SF5 if nothing changes.

I know im just playing sfv till mvci comes out lol. always preferred marvel

 

[TheSpoiler]

Someone also pointed out the spectator thing to James Chen, or maybe he retweeted it, whatever - in a match, one of the characters got up and mashed jab and caught the other dude. It LOOKED like a wakeup jab at random, but it was character specific for that matchup. Had the commentators not known, that would have flown over everyone's head at Topanga.

I think that shit is cool, but the average person will not. Which is why the v-skills need to be more important, because I want people to see Urien spout ILL SAVIOR THIS and know he's gonna go in hard. Those are the "defining" feature of the game, and for half the cast, it's not common enough in matches for viewers to latch onto.

 

[kobu]

I just don't know how people play characters like necalli who have these garbage ass normals. This dudes sweep is fucking joke.

 

[Skilletor]

It's more like...how do you say it.

People wanted a lower skill entry floor but not a lower skill ceiling

I get you.

I thought the game would be about the neutral, but...it's not. They've bungled multiple aspects of the gameplay.

 

[mnz]

Necalli doesn't have garbage normals wtf

 

[TheSpoiler]

I just don't know how people play characters like necalli who have these garbage ass normals. This dudes sweep is fucking joke.

Necaili's normals are amazing though. You even get an AA jab that you don't need.

 

[lucebuce12]

I just don't know how people play characters like necalli who have these garbage ass normals. This dudes sweep is fucking joke.

Necalli | Garbase ass normals.


Pick one.

 

[CountBlack]

I just don't know how people play characters like necalli who have these garbage ass normals. This dudes sweep is fucking joke.

st.HK and st/cr.MP

just push these buttons in neutral and buff sometimes from the MP

thank me later

 

[Edzi]

It's more like...how do you say it.

People wanted a lower skill entry floor but not a lower skill ceiling

Bingo.

I get you.

I thought the game would be about the neutral, but...it's not. They've bungled multiple aspects of the gameplay.

They implied themselves that there would be more neutral, and then there wasn't.

 

[FACE]

I don't disagree, but surely everybody can see why they approached SF5 the way they did.

I enjoy SF5, though. It's way more in line, execution wise, with previous SFs. I think the problem with the neutral is the way knockdowns work and the stubby normals. Fix those, and I think most of my issues with the gameplay disappear.

I miss exectuion, but imo, SF has always been one of the easiest fighters to play. SF4 is an outlier. SF3 is hella easy (I don't think parries are hard). Alpha series aren't combo reliant, neither is ST. SF has never been about combos until SF4. The problem is they removed strong neutral tools, which IS what SF should be about.

What? V-Ism and Custom Combos?

 

[direct_quote]

Execution and reads in coop cup make it hype for me... Hype hearing about commentators mentioning all the options a character has or how hard a combo is. In SFV the commentators sound so boring, "well I guess he could press s.hk again or go for a throw, why not.."

 

[KidA Seven]

The neutral in V is also dominated by the priority and Crush Counter system. It's like SF4 was fencing and V is swinging sledgehammers. They could probably touch that at some point, but it would basically become a different game.

Which is what I think is needed for Capcom to sell/relaunch the game now. That's what I was hoping season 2 would be. I think that's the best way to bring people back.

SFxT had a sort of gameplay relaunch which transformed the opinion of the competitive crowd, but it was too late in general as everyone moved on. SFV is still the main focus so a gameplay relaunch would be beneficial.

 

[mbpm1]

Like, I was one of the proprietors for lower execution in sfv. I thought, why does someone like say, ken in sfiv just need to mash jab x 3 into shoryu for easy basic damage while someone like sagat gets 2 frame links for a combo that does even less damage?

Stuff like that was annoying. But the thing was I liked some of the execution for things other than bnbs. I liked trying to go for ken''s cr mp into cr mk link even though my execution was and still was ass. Little moments like that where I got a link were small motivators during matches.

 

[Skilletor]

Which is what I think is needed for Capcom to sell/relaunch the game now. That's what I was hoping season 2 would be. I think that's the best way to bring people back.

SFxT had a sort of gameplay relaunch which transformed the opinion of the competitive crowd, but it was too late in general as everyone moved on. SFV is still the main focus so a gameplay relaunch would be beneficial.

Hopefully that's what season 3 is, but I'm doubtful.

What? V-Ism and Custom Combos?

Eh, perhaps. Vism moreso than CCs. The moment to moment gameplay of both games is not reliant on combos, but since you start with meeter in A3, that does change it quite a bit.

 

[CountBlack]

Fei Long was of one my favourite characters to play in 4 because of DEM BUTTONS.

just thinking about how his farthest button in V would probably go as far as Ryu's st.LP deeply triggers me tbh

 

[mbpm1]

Fei Long was of one my favourite characters to play in 4 because of DEM BUTTONS.

just thinking about how his farthest button in V would probably go as far as Ryu's st.LP deeply triggers me tbh

Sagat st HK and cr fierce were the reason I picked him up as a side every now and then. Good ass buttons that felt meaty

 

[cackhyena]

Guess I haven't checked in for a while on where people stand with this game compared to 4. Nice to see I'm not alone. There's a lot I like in 5 and am glad to see things from 4 erased. The loss of the ability to link crazy shit if your execution was on point isn't one of them.

 

[MCD250]

The neutral in V is also dominated by the priority and Crush Counter system. It's like SF4 was fencing and V is swinging sledgehammers. They could probably touch that at some point, but it would basically become a different game.

I once saw someone float around the idea of removing crush counters for anything except invincible reversals. I honestly think there might be merit to that.

 

[lucebuce12]

Honda's st.hk in this game might have the same range as Gief's jab.

 

[kobu]

You guys are probably right and I've been playing vega and chun li for too long so I feel like I can't whiff punish anything with necalli.

Fei Long was of one my favourite characters to play in 4 because of DEM BUTTONS.

just thinking about how his farthest button in V would probably go as far as Ryu's st.LP deeply triggers me tbh

I swear I shed a single tear the first time I went to training mode and saw Akuma's cr mk

 

[Neoxon]

Happy Birthday, Kolin!

 

[CountBlack]

Honda's st.hk in this game might have the same range as Gief's jab.

rufus cr.HP no longer grabbing the popcorn from a mile away :/

You guys are probably right and I've been playing vega and chun li for too long so I feel like I can't whiff punish anything with necalli.



I swear I shed a single tear the first time I went to training mode and saw Akuma's cr mk

America sheds a tear every time its done on stream

 

[lucebuce12]

Happy Birthday, Kolin!

Bae

rufus cr.HP no longer grabbing the popcorn from a mile away :/

Oh God, I'd forgotten. This is what war flashbacks must be like.

 

[J_Macgrady]

It's more like...how do you say it.

People wanted a lower skill entry floor but not a lower skill ceiling

I'm at a point where I don't think something like this is possible. Absolutely none of the advanced stuff/high execution is necessary for fun, but it's necessary to play the game at a certain level. It has to be hard as a developer to make something that truly appeals to everyone and it's not just a buzzword used to sell the game. I think you might as well leave a lot of the high level stuff in and just have characters who are easier to pick up and play than others, but I realize that's not the most elegant solution.


Can anyone point to a fighting game that was the medium of these two extremes and people for the most part were pleased?

 

[cackhyena]

The game is opened up more by simply reverting to beta 1 possibilities again.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

SFV is fortunately nowhere near close to SFxT in crap-factor, but it does share the common issue of overdesign. Crush counters are not needed and actively hurt the game.

The fact that SF4, a game everyone was over in the months between CPT and SFV launch last year, got universal Kreygasms when PR Rog played it on stream recently shows how SFV really has dropped the ball.

 

[lucebuce12]

Just having more combo opportunities and more juggle opportunities alone would make a difference.

FORCE people to choose between damage, position or perhaps even a mixup. It's one of the reasons why that Laura meaty light shoulder irks me so much. She should have to choose, not get the best of both worlds by going for a meaty that leaves her plus and close enough to grab again.

SFV is fortunately nowhere near close to SFxT in crap-factor, but it does share the common issue of overdesign. Crush counters are not needed and actively hurt the game.

They made sense in season 1, but the more they kept nerfing v-reversals, don't add defensive options for other characters and keep the CC for non-invincible reversals, the worse the whole concept of CC becomes.

 

[Edzi]

I'm at a point where I don't think something like this is possible. Absolutely none of the advanced stuff/high execution is necessary for fun, but it's necessary to play the game at a certain level. It has to be hard as a developer to make something that truly appeals to everyone and it's not just a buzzword used to sell the game. I think you might as well leave a lot of the high level stuff in and just have characters who are easier to pick up and play than others, but I realize that's not the most elegant solution.


Can anyone point to a fighting game that was the medium of these two extremes and people for the most part were pleased?

I don't think this is too hard to accomplish. You can have go to combos that are either chains or max 3 frame links that do okay damage but aren't optimal, while the higher execution stuff that requires tighter inputs could be more advantageous with higher damage. Also, you could make it loose enough that you have multiple combo paths to choose from, each with its own benefits. The key is more options.

As far as examples go, aren't things like Marvel and Persona 4 Arena pretty much this? You have simple universal chain combos, or an auto combo button for quick non optimal damage. The auto combo feature is admittedly not that great and only for really casual players, but it does its job by lowering the entry barrier.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Sagat st HK and cr fierce were the reason I picked him up as a side every now and then. Good ass buttons that felt meaty

you ever try CvS2 Sagat's cr.Fierce?