What's an Abigail? This is Alex nostalgia costume day.
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Street Fighter V |OTVIII| New Delayed Generation - Controversial Inputs
- Thread starter Reizo Ryuu
- Start date
What's an Abigail? This is Alex nostalgia costume day.
The smallest button in Tekken for most characters has a 10 frames start up, that's slower than most SFV sweeps, and most SFV's normals with 10 or more frame are very punishable on whiff by reaction. So again, what exactly is it you want form SFV by comparing it with Tekken:
1 - Make the fastest normal in SFV a 10 frames move so you can whiff punish it on reaction?
2 - Make every normal including 3 frames jabs have ~20+ frames of recovery so you can punish everything on reaction?
Karin's st.HK has 10 frames of start up, the game has 6 frames of input delay, human reaction time is about 15 frames:
10 + 6 + ~15 = ~31
Add few frames before the animation becomes recognizable that the characters is doing a move. Try whiff punishing moves with 35+ frames of animation with Karin's st.HK, it works, even in SFV.
Marvel
could never
It's a good thing he's dropping tomorrow because this game really needed more grapplers.
CountBlack
Member
I've already wrote and published my novel on why SFIV > SFV so I'm not gonna get into that again, but I remember the last time you spoke about SFIV, you said you quit around Super and didn't really seem to have a basic grasp or understanding of the system or really how to play the game at a mid range level when you did play (granted you quit really early on so that's natural).
In regards to SFV defense.. there's some aspects that are impressive like stopping and converting off Laura/Ken's Vskill forward when cancelled from a normal or maybe blocking several overheads in a row but apart from that a lot of blocking in this game are mostly prayers. Reacting to things in this game is also a lot harder + extra input delay which kinda makes doing silly things like starting off with a double dash command throw a legit strategy lol.
Even watching Punk vs Ice Effect at Dreamhack ATL this weekend. Punk arguably has the best reactions IMO for SFV standards. I'm seeing the best player on the planet getting hit by the same dash up SCOOP that any other regular online player gets hit by and it's because you just can't really react to those kind of things in this game and I really don't like that. I asked Du at Evo last weekend (I guess weekend before) about how does he deal with guessing situations like Ibuki's V-Trigger for example. I wanted to pick his brain about if there's any secrets that top players have to deal with situations like these and nope, you gotta commit to which direction you're gonna block in and just hope it's correct. I don't like blocking off of hopes and prayers, it's just kind of stupid. In IV, you had defensive mechanics to help deal with those situations and you had options to deal with those defensive mechanics as well.
The meta currently in V is to just take the throw and return the game back to neutral. Teching throws is often a bad idea with the risk of being shimmy'd. Alright this is fine, I'm cool with this. But now you have characters that have throw loops.. now you're in a 50/50 situation over and over with no real way out except for guessing correctly. This isn't about just reads or outwitting your opponent, this is just praying you guess right. Every option outside of taking the throw is a huge risk and could cost you the round. Backdash = CC'd gg, jump forward or backwards gets caught by a button or just AA'd easily and back into the corner.
When I was learning XRD, I was annoyed that most of the casts gameplan was to get a knockdown, throw some sort of projectile over the opponents body and hit them with a flurry of high/low mixups then open them up, combo and rinse and repeat. Millia/Kum/Raven/Zato/Ky/I-No/Sol-Sin in some cases all kinda doing the same thing. But while it was annoying/frustrating to deal with, the game gave you a plethora of defensive mechanics to deal with those situations. Want them off of you? Burst. Have the read? Reflector/Reject burst shield whatever thingy. Understand the attack pattern? Just guard to make the attacks less + on block. Want them to back off a bit by using bar? Advance guard (I can't remember the xrd name lol). Want them off of you but not enough to burst? Alpha counter. This is a smarter design, actual defensive options to deal with the flurry of bullshit coming your way. This is what SFV is lacking, you have a flurry of bullshit coming your way (shoutouts to ex devils reverse) with no real way to deal with it except for prayers.
Whiff punishing is still viable in SFV because Punk is amazing at it and shows it does exist, but some of the hit & hurtboxes of some really great normals are really messed up. Especially with the risk/reward of throwing out these CC buttons.. it really makes the neutral game a bit wacky.
You quit SFIV after 2 years in (Super) and borderline quit SFV after S1 ended because you didn't like where the game was going lol (or that you couldn't DP whenever you wanted to). You were talking about playing single player games again just like a month ago lol.
CountBlack
Member
In regards to the combo system in IV vs V. It's basically like this; if everyone in the NBA from Dwight Howard to Shaq could shoot 3s like Steph Curry then what would be so impressive about Steph's shooting?
Watching Smug do things with Dudley I didn't even know were possible was great. Watching him play Balrog is still a treat but its just a bit boring that everyone can do what he does. If I see him do something new with Rog, I can probably get that technique or combo down within a minute. I was never able to replicate what he did with Dudley and that's what I personally found impressive.
Loving experimenting with this V-Trigger, trying out stuffing a quick rise.
I'm probably lttp with EX V-Trigger Inferno, but I didn't know you could do that lol. I really enjoy learning.
Yeah its pretty cool, but unfortunately not much of it is practical. Can do some pretty crazy shit though.
I don't think combos are impressive
they are nothing like curry doing 3-points. you can go into practice mode for ten hours and get out with a 1-frame combo in sf4. you cannot go into the court and practice for hours and come out shooting triples like curry. sure, curry practiced, but so did everyone else, but there's only one curry
completely different situations
Marvel
could never
Yup, totally not optimal or practical. But I'm all about dat life lol
UcchedavÄda
Member
ABI GAIL!
CountBlack
Member
If you don't find it impressive that's totally fine.
What I'm saying is what if you didn't have to spend any time practicing in the lab or putting time into the gym to get on the same level as someone who's at a pro level. If everyone can do what the pros do without having to put in any time, what makes what the pros do impressive?
IV was the only combo heavy game on the series (apart from Alpha games) and I don't miss that at all.
SF V is about having consistency with your game and that includes combos even if they are easier. Especially in this game where a single mistake can snowball into defeat very quickly.
GG/BB are games that actually give you freedom to come up with a different combo if you properly understand the character. This is what makes them amazing games in terms of combo variety. SF IV was insane in the amount of 1f links, strict timing instead of understanding your character and attack properties.
UcchedavÄda
Member
Kanzuki beach should probably also be blocked, but at least that stage doesn't make some people nauseous.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
Ucchedavāda;244342839 said:
Okay. I cant remember the terminology SFIV used, but I remember being able to get lobby search results for Australia and New Zealand only. I cant do that in SFV.
That sucks for you, but at least you can find US lobbies regularly, even if they arent at the skill level you want. I'll take anything with a good connection here
Omnistalgic
Member
@ Count. Well said...I agree with most of that post but just because I vent here, doesn't mean I quit the game. And as you said, that was last month. I did play some SP games, and I really just started back up with SFV again about a week or so ago. My point is, I'm just trying to adapt, look at better players than me, and do the best I can without complaining. Some things you can adjust to.
I played enough SF4 to know which gameplay I like better, that's just a disagreement of styles. I simply didn't like all the systems in 4. And there were characters that were just as stupid to defend against. Like I keep saying, I agree the defense needs to be buffed, and I'm pretty sure I was just posting about Ibuki and that stupid guessing game she keeps you putting you in. I think it's worse than Laura really, you can't see what the heck is going on lol.
That aspect I do not like, it's bad design, frustrating, all of the above. I'm just trying to get some good out of the game because there is some still there.
If S3 comes out without addressing these issues, I'll likely go back to my S1 ranting.
Overall, I just think we can all adjust a little more and just play the game. I was so pissed at the DP nerfed, but with the second adjustment I think it's fair. I never would have felt that way if I just keep pinpointing all the systems that I hate and not just play the game.
And Edzi stop side seat driving with ur scrub Alex -_-
I played enough SF4 to know which gameplay I like better, that's just a disagreement of styles. I simply didn't like all the systems in 4. And there were characters that were just as stupid to defend against. Like I keep saying, I agree the defense needs to be buffed, and I'm pretty sure I was just posting about Ibuki and that stupid guessing game she keeps you putting you in. I think it's worse than Laura really, you can't see what the heck is going on lol.
That aspect I do not like, it's bad design, frustrating, all of the above. I'm just trying to get some good out of the game because there is some still there.
If S3 comes out without addressing these issues, I'll likely go back to my S1 ranting.
Overall, I just think we can all adjust a little more and just play the game. I was so pissed at the DP nerfed, but with the second adjustment I think it's fair. I never would have felt that way if I just keep pinpointing all the systems that I hate and not just play the game.
And Edzi stop side seat driving with ur scrub Alex -_-
I'm of two minds about this.
CountBlack's example is good because Smug put SF4 Dudley on the map and you never saw the combos he pulled out in competitive play prior to his debut (nobody played Dudley except like Marn but still).
But I also don't automatically get hype at hard combos. In fact, SF4 has some of my least favorite hard combos because a lot of them involve lots of jabs and looping special moves. There's so many big damage combos that look weak and take forever to complete. I kind of have the same opinion on Marvel loops. A few characters being able to combo into the same move over and over is OK but if you're seeing it all the time it isn't very appealing.
I'm against basic tools that are gated by 1f or 2f links (Dudley's SF4 overhead) that they need to be competent. In general, I'm against 1f links because it's kind of nebulous as to how the link was dropped. If one drops a juggle combo it's usually obvious if they were too early or too late. Also, dropping links is a much bigger deal because you can get blown up. Dropping a juggle means you miss out on the damage and/or advantage. Typically the opponent can't recover quickly enough to punish.
I think the 3f buffer is a good idea and 3f should be the hardest links in the game. However, I'm fine with making the combos more difficult. There's plenty of games, specifically ASW games, with similar buffers and much harder combos.
SF4 is the only SF game where this is a thing, though.
all the pros practice their combos, and some do different ones to others, some do exploit the system to get bigger damage or more positioning, but that's all a single player game. yeah they practiced a ton, big whoop. they ain't doing anything the others cannot do; not everyone can become a 3 point machine like Curry, no matter how much they practice. ok, it is cool if someone does a long combo, but honestly, not in SF4 nor in SFV they are that impressive. maybe in some other game they are a more impressive achievement?
the rest of the stuff that involves moving around, interacting with the opponent is the impressive, interesting part; learning patterns, baiting, etc. that's the cool part of fighting games. now, you may say whether sf4 or sfv are better for this, but certainly mindlessly practicing combos are not part of it
yeah, once people start juggling, combos become less interesting when dropped; ideally, yeah, hard combos will be links so dropping them is dangerous, but cannot really take out juggles from the equation. ideally juggles are the finishing part of a combo; well, marvel would probably not work like this. sf4 went too far into links, tho
people are still dropping combos in sfv; dunno if they have been dumbed down to oblivion yet
You can filter out stages online. Not sure why you would filter out one of the dopest stages in fighting games, tho.
That's not input delay though, that's SFIV having slow ass dashes, play a character with SFV's dashing speed like Makoto and suddenly dash > command grab is a legit strategy in SFIV too.
Though I agree with the rest, SFV simplifies the game too much that it's super easy to get to the point where it's 50/50 time, while also lacking bail out tools which makes defending so frustrating.
Lack of defensive options would have been fine if the neutral game was stronger, then it would at least be "Oh! I fucked up, it's guessing time!", as is, only character that get to say that in SFV is Guile.
Zombegoast
Member
Just think of it as this
Urien wouldn't be able to poke with St.HP if animation and hurtboxes are consistent with each other.
TheSpoiler
Member
While I don't want SF4 type combos to return, I do want more combos and variety in general. It's not impressive that someone can DO a combo, but that someone can do it under duress. Obviously ease of of use hasn't allowed top players to escape dropping combos, as the stress of the game just makes stuff real difficult.
What I want to see is people make their characters their own. Who cares that anyone can do it if the game is stressful, but right now it's TOO stressful. Some defensive options, more tools so people can have some breathing room to play around in, and combo extensions for flavor and utility would be grand. I'd extend a few normals, as well. Not all of them, but definitely like one or two per character.
The new characters have a ton of options, and it's a good start if that's were they are going. Like Abby has a bunch of juggle points already on him, and that's what I like to see. I hope his v-stuff is neat, but Ed's applications going from what Auto showed off is crazy.
The game just needs like a few tweaks, and it's pretty much how most SF games go in terms of improving.
(Most of all, I just want the cast to be able to play around more and have fun. Less stress, still explosive, more defense, but more tools for everyone.)
What I want to see is people make their characters their own. Who cares that anyone can do it if the game is stressful, but right now it's TOO stressful. Some defensive options, more tools so people can have some breathing room to play around in, and combo extensions for flavor and utility would be grand. I'd extend a few normals, as well. Not all of them, but definitely like one or two per character.
The new characters have a ton of options, and it's a good start if that's were they are going. Like Abby has a bunch of juggle points already on him, and that's what I like to see. I hope his v-stuff is neat, but Ed's applications going from what Auto showed off is crazy.
The game just needs like a few tweaks, and it's pretty much how most SF games go in terms of improving.
(Most of all, I just want the cast to be able to play around more and have fun. Less stress, still explosive, more defense, but more tools for everyone.)
lucebuce12
Member
Back+HP? Do you mean df+HP?Had an encounter with a FANG who kept spamming Back+HP and nothing else.
Was that a bot?
UcchedavÄda
Member
Some people get motion sickness from that stage.
Yeah, SF4 arguably has the most complex combos of any Street Fighter game. The craziest stuff in other games were Alpha CCs or things like charge partitioning in III. I don't even think they designed SF4 with this sort of combo complexity in mind, it just happened.
For instance, SF4 basically lifted the Roman Cancel system from GGX but made it frustratingly more difficult because you have to input a dash to cancel the focus attack instead of spending meter to cancel whatever you want. My guess is their original idea for whatever FADC is (which the name also bothers because FADC = Focus Attack Dash Cancel but that doesn't cover whatever the cancel into FA is) was that on block you'd go into an FA and either absorb your opponent's punish and counter or charge up into guard break. Like I think they wanted it to be like P4A Akihiko's guard crushing liver blow instead of the RC style cancel ending in a FADC like it did 99% of the time. The actual guard crush crumple stuff is like Alex's V-Skill where it's only used during stun situations.
Omnistalgic
Member
And count I bought every version of SF4. You keep saying I quit after 2 years lol. I just didn't play it AS MUCH after super. I've played everything brah, and even have the Ultra version on PS4 if you want to boot it up sometime.
I have a good grasp on the game, I just didn't like it. Just stop it with your SF4 crusade lol...
I have a good grasp on the game, I just didn't like it. Just stop it with your SF4 crusade lol...
Rickenslacker
Banned
Yeah I kind of hate this SF4 narrative of doing tightrope combos versus a reversal window as loose as a hotdog down a hallway was something that was a good thing in a game that was littered with delayed input online and had scaling to make fancier combos almost pointless. Especially when as I mentioned earlier in the thread that a lot of highlight matches people will dish out for 4 end up being shuffling shotos chucking plasma.
I can go into training room and do that stuff myself. It doesn't make me a good player, and it's not what I think divides me from pro players. It's stuff like this that does.
I think SF in gral has a problem to make characters more personalized; special moves need more "control" in them, beyond the light/medium/strong/ex versions
we should be able to direct fireballs in weird trayectories ala those rainbow games, make a shoryuken advance a ton or not, etc. also more chargeable moves like Gief's sHP, or controllable command moves. maybe controllable jumps?
Reizo Ryuu
Member
You can't filter out stages online...y'all want to blacklist everything don't ya.
You can filter out which stages get selected with your own random select.
You can filter out which stages get selected with your own random select.
killu4what
Member
I personally find some characters very difficult to execute with. I think there is a great deal of hyperbole when people say all the combos are super easy.
It would be nice if the game forced you to pick your top 3 favorite stages and top 3 least favorite stages. Then it would pick whatever matched up between the two players as the most liked and eliminated any from the least favorite category.
Yeah, it's not like every character in SF4 has a higher execution floor than every SFV character. Karin has just frame nonsense that's difficult to pull off consistently.
It is easier, though. I could never complete all the SF4 trials whereas the hardest ones in V I maybe struggled with for 30 minutes.
TheSpoiler
Member
Maybe not THAT goofy, but some alterations would be neat. That's what the v-system should be used for. Like, different properties on different moves. Maybe make Mika's mic throw do more damage OR do more stun OR maybe they juggle and leave you closer I don't know. That while making it easier for her to actually do the dang v-skill in the first place.
It already takes so long to find matches. Introducing all these filters is eh
They're very easy relative to other games.
SFV is the only fighting game where I can complete all trials without breaking a sweat, and my execution is terrible. That's not to say that combos won't be dropped in an actual match though, it just happens way less than in something with a higher execution barrier.
That wouldn't filter on who your opponent is, just what stage you get. And if somehow your top 3 picks are their bottom 3 and vice versa it just picks random.
Because it's a dope stage.
If you want to see what they had in mind with focus attacks, you just need to do SF4 vanilla trials. There is very dumb stuff in there, like fireball cancels into level 2 focus attack for the crumple. That's a trial a lot of fireball characters have and I don't think anyone has really ever done it in a real match, because it makes no sense with the heavy scaling you get.
So yeah, I really don't think that system was well thought out, they just ran with what people came up with.
I'm sure that was also the reason why charge characters never really went anywhere in that game (until Decapre, developed very late into the game's cycle), because they couldn't get as much use out of the main system of SF4.
That video triggered the shit out of me. "We decided to add the power of level 2 focus attack to a button that's safe on block. Enjoy!"
I don't. Not to say I don't find situational combos impressive, they're very impressive, but getting a read on your opponent in neutral and punishing their mistakes is the most thrilling part of fighting games for me.
I watched 2 old 2 furious last night and seeing an actual neutral game in Alpha 2 was so fun to watch.
I love 2 Old so much. This weekend's actually sold me on USFII.
The V-Skills need to be more complex, in general. Capcom's goal was to design so something happens when you press 2 buttons which allows complete beginners who can't throw a hadoken feel like they're actually controlling their character. However, it shouldn't be limited to "press MP+MK and do one of your character's old special moves but only one button strength variation".
Everyone should get a few variations of their VS, even Ryu if only to give him a down parry in exchange for making that move better. Birdie probably has one of the best VSes in the game in regards to functionality and variety. Ibuki has one of the worst.
killu4what
Member
That maybe true. But the emphasis on light punch/light kick in SF4 was kind of trash.
I watch games like marvel, blazblue, and Guilty Gear and have no idea what is happening on the screen. So I cant imagine how to execute so of the moves.
I still can't do all the trials 😥