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[SephLuis]

I find Omito or JDCR converting into some ultra situational long ass combo a hell of a lot more impressive than someone whiff punishing a low forward.

The diference is that Omito plays GG and understands his character well enough to make that combo on the fly. The game allows that sort of creativity.

Which is very different from something super specific that was used in training mode and it became a muscle memory.

 

[mbpm1]

I think what it comes down to is just making more interesting and meaningful neutral. Guessing games on knockdown suck, but guessing games in neutral are the most atrocious. I hate fighting Laura but I'm okay fighting gief. Why? The knockdown game isn't great with either. Because he can't do a 17 frame dash that you have to scout for to react to. His buttons are seeable. And he has a variety of neutral options which you can distinguish. Thus you can play a game of neutral with him. Instead of cc button that is hard to whiff punish and you just use whenever, dash in dash out bc you're not hitting those online, etc.

Fix neutral before anything else. Give more interesting neutral options, stabilize hurt box/hit box interactions more, stabilize how cc works in neutral, tone down dashes a little, tune up walkspeeds, extend the ranges of some normals.

 

[Omnistalgic]

I think what it comes down to is just making more interesting and meaningful neutral. Guessing games on knockdown suck, but guessing games in neutral are the most atrocious. I hate fighting Laura but I'm okay fighting gief. Why? The knockdown game isn't great with either. Because he can't do a 17 frame dash that you have to scout for to react to. His buttons are seeable. And he has a variety of neutral options which you can distinguish. Thus you can play a game of neutral with him. Instead of cc button that is hard to whiff punish and you just use whenever, dash in dash out bc you're not hitting those online, etc.

Fix neutral before anything else. Give more interesting neutral options, stabilize hurt box/hit box interactions more, stabilize how cc works in neutral.

yup, as scary as Gief is, it's one of my most fun match ups because it's very rewarding to get a win out.

I'll post one of my recent matches up, me and this Gief were just bobbing at each other for like 2 minutes lol.

You jump...
No, you jump...
Throw a FB!
No you've got Vtrigger
Go for a dash SPD!
No you've been checking me with jabs
Well...let's just look at each other and move back n forth
Deal..

 

[lucebuce12]

Give more interesting neutral options, stabilize hurt box/hit box interactions more, stabilize how cc works in neutral, tone down dashes a little, tune up walkspeeds, extend the ranges of some normals.

You'll only get ONE of those at best, and it's not gonna be more neutral options.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

I am actually not sure why fighting games require that both players are seeing the same stage. As long as dimensions are the same, and as long as the two players sync up after any stage transitions, then it shouldn't matter.

 

[JusDoIt]

What sort of options in neutral do y'all feel are missing from SFV?

 

[mbpm1]

You'll only get ONE of those at best, and it's not gonna be more neutral options.

More likely instead of any of those capcom will settle for trying to make their characters release on time.

Menat might come out by November

 

[Pompadour]

I am actually not sure why fighting games require that both players are seeing the same stage. As long as dimensions are the same, and as long as the two players sync up after any stage transitions, then it shouldn't matter.

Yeah, I don't get it, either. I'm sure there's a good reason but theoretically any stage in a traditional 2D fighter should be interchangeable.

 

[Edzi]

What sort of options in neutral do y'all feel are missing from SFV?

For a start, they could stop making some character's best neutral pokes safe CC heavies. In a game with both CC and a priority system for normals, that really discourages a character with medium pokes from trying to play footsies.

 

[Ganyc]

What sort of options in neutral do y'all feel are missing from SFV?

maybe longer normals?


But i'm playing Karin so i am good.

 

[lucebuce12]

What sort of options in neutral do y'all feel are missing from SFV?

It's not necessarily more options I want, just neutral situations where the risk/reward isn't so fucked. You get amazing buttons that are plus on block or safe. The risk for whiffing it is next to none since it's rare to see whiff punishes in this game. The reward for hitting one as a regular hit is decent. The reward for hitting one as a CC is 30-40% of the opponent's health bar + corner carry + resources for you.

 

[Marvel]

I like Bison's stMK.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Urien comes to mind when thinking of too good CC butttons. Who else? I know Rog has one that's + as well.

 

[JusDoIt]

It's not necessarily more options I want, just neutral situations where the risk/reward isn't so fucked. You get amazing buttons that are plus on block or safe. The risk for whiffing it is next to none since it's rare to see whiff punishes in this game. The reward for hitting one as a regular hit is decent. The reward for hitting one as a CC is 30-40% of the opponent's health bar + corner carry + resources for you.

So like, bigger hurtboxes for CC buttons? Longer punish windows?

 

[mnz]

I just want a little more fencing and a little less swinging-a-sledge-hammer in neutral.

 

[Omnistalgic]

So like, bigger hurtboxes for CC buttons? Longer punish windows?

i think a general rule should be all CC buttons should be negative on block. Everyone's doesn't have to be punishable, but a baseline -2 maybe and then go from there.

 

[Skilletor]

I just want a little more fencing and a little less swinging-a-sledge-hammer in neutral.

This.

Also more situations that reset the neutral, not situations that create the same meaty buttons every time.

 

[lucebuce12]

So like, bigger hurtboxes for CC buttons? Longer punish windows?

I personally would make CC buttons such shit in neutral situations that they're not worth doing.

Increase the recovery, fix the hit/hurtboxes ( though this is a gamewide problem, not just CC buttons) and for the ones that are longer range moves like Necalli/Ken/Karin's st.hk reduce the pushback and reduce the reward you get for those buttons.

 

[Marvel]

I just want a little more fencing and a little less swinging-a-sledge-hammer in neutral.

Heh, well said.

 

[SephLuis]

yup, as scary as Gief is, it's one of my most fun match ups because it's very rewarding to get a win out.

I'll post one of my recent matches up, me and this Gief were just bobbing at each other for like 2 minutes lol.

You jump...
No, you jump...
Throw a FB!
No you've got Vtrigger
Go for a dash SPD!
No you've been checking me with jabs
Well...let's just look at each other and move back n forth
Deal..

Tell me your secrets. I'm scared of the Gief MU with Juri.
It's quite traumatizing that he can command grab my limbs that I use to keep him away >.>

And the other option is to rushdown Gief.....

 

[Edzi]

i think a general rule should be all CC buttons should be negative on block. Everyone's doesn't have to be punishable, but a baseline -2 maybe and then go from there.

No, this wouldn't work either. It has to be on a case by case basis, but all CC buttons should have some kind of weakness depending on what they're good for. Look at Alex, his f. HP gives him a lot of mixup opportunities, but it has shit range and whiffs on crouchers unless point blank. If you made that move negative on block, Alex would be in an even worse position than he is now (lol). The top tiers on the other hand have CC buttons that they can mash out that cover tons of options with absolutely no risk.

I personally would make CC buttons such shit in neutral situations that they're not worth doing.

Increase the recovery, fix the hit/hurtboxes ( though this is a gamewide problem, not just CC buttons) and for the ones that are longer range moves like Necalli/Ken/Karin's st.hk reduce the pushback and reduce the reward you get for those buttons.

This too. Like I said earlier, neutral should not be dominated by safe CC heavy normals that beat out mediums due to the priority system.

 

[ElFly]

I think what it comes down to is just making more interesting and meaningful neutral. Guessing games on knockdown suck, but guessing games in neutral are the most atrocious. I hate fighting Laura but I'm okay fighting gief. Why? The knockdown game isn't great with either. Because he can't do a 17 frame dash that you have to scout for to react to. His buttons are seeable. And he has a variety of neutral options which you can distinguish. Thus you can play a game of neutral with him. Instead of cc button that is hard to whiff punish and you just use whenever, dash in dash out bc you're not hitting those online, etc.

Fix neutral before anything else. Give more interesting neutral options, stabilize hurt box/hit box interactions more, stabilize how cc works in neutral, tone down dashes a little, tune up walkspeeds, extend the ranges of some normals.

I am ok with guessing games on knockdown. you got knocked down! gotta pay for that. I think the wakeup delay should be more controlleable, so setups are harder, and thus actually cashing in on the KD is dangerous, but honestly, the person who is on the ground should be in trouble

but yeah, the neutral needs to be better. at least less good CC moves and longer normals

 

[Turbanator]

You know, the memes on Kappa that aren't just lazy "fuck sfv" or "dbfz's cocksleeve" pics are actually hilarious.

More likely instead of any of those capcom will settle for trying to make their characters release on time.

Menat might come out by November

Speaking of which, the delays have given us a scheduling problem for the characters.

With no further delays, Menat should be out in September (alongside MvCI) and Zeku will be out in November. This means there will only be a month between S2 and S3, assuming Sagat (if he's first) comes out in December. Doesn't something seem wrong with that?

I think Capcom would be better off holding Menat back a month (so MvCI has a bit more room to breathe, because God knows it needs it) and pushing Zeku up one, so that both characters launch simultaneously in October.

 

[CountBlack]

I'm of two minds about this.

CountBlack's example is good because Smug put SF4 Dudley on the map and you never saw the combos he pulled out in competitive play prior to his debut (nobody played Dudley except like Marn but still).

But I also don't automatically get hype at hard combos. In fact, SF4 has some of my least favorite hard combos because a lot of them involve lots of jabs and looping special moves. There's so many big damage combos that look weak and take forever to complete. I kind of have the same opinion on Marvel loops. A few characters being able to combo into the same move over and over is OK but if you're seeing it all the time it isn't very appealing.

I'm against basic tools that are gated by 1f or 2f links (Dudley's SF4 overhead) that they need to be competent. In general, I'm against 1f links because it's kind of nebulous as to how the link was dropped. If one drops a juggle combo it's usually obvious if they were too early or too late. Also, dropping links is a much bigger deal because you can get blown up. Dropping a juggle means you miss out on the damage and/or advantage. Typically the opponent can't recover quickly enough to punish.

I think the 3f buffer is a good idea and 3f should be the hardest links in the game. However, I'm fine with making the combos more difficult. There's plenty of games, specifically ASW games, with similar buffers and much harder combos.

Yea harder/more complex combos don't have to just be 1f links. They could be 3f for all I care it just gets boring when everyone can do the same thing with minimal effort.

SF4 is the only SF game where this is a thing, though.

when we playin

That's not input delay though, that's SFIV having slow ass dashes, play a character with SFV's dashing speed like Makoto and suddenly dash > command grab is a legit strategy in SFIV too.

Though I agree with the rest, SFV simplifies the game too much that it's super easy to get to the point where it's 50/50 time, while also lacking bail out tools which makes defending so frustrating.

Lack of defensive options would have been fine if the neutral game was stronger, then it would at least be "Oh! I fucked up, it's guessing time!", as is, only character that get to say that in SFV is Guile.

Yea Makoto's ex grab having armour = mistake lmao, but to be fair, you're always expecting a dash from Makoto since her walkspeed literally doesn't move her anywhere. She has to dash or axe kick.

While I don't want SF4 type combos to return, I do want more combos and variety in general. It's not impressive that someone can DO a combo, but that someone can do it under duress. Obviously ease of of use hasn't allowed top players to escape dropping combos, as the stress of the game just makes stuff real difficult.

What I want to see is people make their characters their own. Who cares that anyone can do it if the game is stressful, but right now it's TOO stressful. Some defensive options, more tools so people can have some breathing room to play around in, and combo extensions for flavor and utility would be grand. I'd extend a few normals, as well. Not all of them, but definitely like one or two per character.

The new characters have a ton of options, and it's a good start if that's were they are going. Like Abby has a bunch of juggle points already on him, and that's what I like to see. I hope his v-stuff is neat, but Ed's applications going from what Auto showed off is crazy.

The game just needs like a few tweaks, and it's pretty much how most SF games go in terms of improving.

(Most of all, I just want the cast to be able to play around more and have fun. Less stress, still explosive, more defense, but more tools for everyone.)

I just don't care for the minimalist design they took with this game system. Part of me thinks it came from time running out vs them actually wanting the game to be this way.

And count I bought every version of SF4. You keep saying I quit after 2 years lol. I just didn't play it AS MUCH after super. I've played everything brah, and even have the Ultra version on PS4 if you want to boot it up sometime.

I have a good grasp on the game, I just didn't like it. Just stop it with your SF4 crusade lol...

man you was out here complaining about honda's butt slam being too strong lmao no way you actually had a good grasp on 4

Yeah I kind of hate this SF4 narrative of doing tightrope combos versus a reversal window as loose as a hotdog down a hallway was something that was a good thing in a game that was littered with delayed input online and had scaling to make fancier combos almost pointless. Especially when as I mentioned earlier in the thread that a lot of highlight matches people will dish out for 4 end up being shuffling shotos chucking plasma.

I can go into training room and do that stuff myself. It doesn't make me a good player, and it's not what I think divides me from pro players. It's stuff like this that does.

ah yes some pro level play

That video triggered the shit out of me. "We decided to add the power of level 2 focus attack to a button that's safe on block. Enjoy!"

yep. yall hated focus attacks? well here they are just veiled as something else lmao

 

[Omnistalgic]

Tell me your secrets. I'm scared of the Gief MU with Juri.
It's quite traumatizing that he can command grab my limbs that I use to keep him away >.>

And the other option is to rushdown Gief.....

Fireball, jab his limbs, check dashes with jabs, and whiff punish if they get crazy and spam headbutt. Oh and cross up that flex if they are holding it too long, I think 3 hits break it right?

Also, if you have a DP, Gief should NEVER jump on you. Like ever...even if you win the match beat yourself up and practing your AA. When Giefs know they can't jump, they do risky dumb stuff. And then it's all about the footsie baby.!

Omg @ Count...you are ridiculous, people are annoyed by different things. Let's boot up USF4 this week. I'll probably be good enough to beat you in a couple sessions.

 

[lucebuce12]

Also, if you have a DP, Gief should NEVER jump on you. Like ever...even if you win the match beat yourself up and practing your AA. When Giefs know they can't jump, they do risky dumb stuff. And then it's all about the footsie baby.!

I play 2 characters with no DPs but decent anti air normals, and gief's j.mk still stuffs them.

What do I do?

 

[mnz]

Pretty sure they also added the whole Crush Counter system late in development, because those early SFV show matches did not have it.

 

[CountBlack]

Omg @ Count...you are ridiculous, people are annoyed by different things. Let's boot up USF4 this week. I'll probably be good enough to beat you in a couple sessions.

im down, I'll choose honda

I play 2 characters with no DPs but decent anti air normals, and gief's j.mk still stuffs them.

What do I do?

hold that shit

 

[mbpm1]

I am ok with guessing games on knockdown. you got knocked down! gotta pay for that. I think the wakeup delay should be more controlleable, so setups are harder, and thus actually cashing in on the KD is dangerous, but honestly, the person who is on the ground should be in trouble

but yeah, the neutral needs to be better. at least less good CC moves and longer normals

Like, knockdown into Ko sucks, but I'm looking past that. Would not dying to throw loops be less infuriating? Yes. But where does that leave me in my opinion? A game with risky guess neutral with shitty knockdown situations that roll over you becomes a game with....risky guess neutral into dragged out, longer games bc less effective oki. The improvement would make a more fun game on knockdown, sure but I've come to realize that's not as much of an improvement to the base game for me as I would want.

 

[Edzi]

im down, I'll choose honda

stream this

 

[Omnistalgic]

I play 2 characters with no DPs but decent anti air normals, and gief's j.mk still stuffs them.

What do I do?

Pray...lol

Honestly I don't know about normals for AA that much, I always play shotos. But did you go to training with a jumping Gief? Has to be some type of timing to where you AA at least 90% of the time. I hardly ever jump in on Fangs. That AA is buff.

 

[Skilletor]

Yea harder/more complex combos don't have to just be 1f links. They could be 3f for all I care it just gets boring when everyone can do the same thing with minimal effort.

when we playin



ah yes some pro level play

I got BP, fam. I ain't touching SF4 ever again.

But yo, can we bring back supers not eating inputs for SF5 like SF3? I fucking KNOW you pressed a button when I activated.

Omg @ Count...you are ridiculous, people are annoyed by different things. Let's boot up USF4 this week. I'll probably be good enough to beat you in a couple sessions.

Not like this, Omni.

I like you, but my money is on Count. lmao

 

[Ucchedavāda]

stream this

I second this!

 

[Omnistalgic]

im down, I'll choose honda

Hahahahaha...no doubt.

I'll reinstall tonight. Should be fun, I think our connection is good. Let me know when ur free to play

 

[ElFly]

Like, knockdown into Ko sucks, but I'm looking past that. Would not dying to throw loops be less infuriating? Yes. But where does that leave me in my opinion? A game with risky guess neutral with shitty knockdown situations that roll over you becomes a game with....risky guess neutral into dragged out, longer games bc less effective oki. The improvement would make a more fun game on knockdown, sure but that's not as much of an improvement to the base game for me as I would want.

well, like a lot of things on the SFV balance, they supposedly took out throw loops...for some people. ideally they wouldn't be there, or would be a lot worse

Also, if you have a DP, Gief should NEVER jump on you. Like ever...even if you win the match beat yourself up and practing your AA. When Giefs know they can't jump, they do risky dumb stuff. And then it's all about the footsie baby.!

be careful with your DPs tho. do them late, and only if gief is above you. otherwise you can be air-SPD'd out of them easily

 

[JusDoIt]

Speaking of which, the delays have given us a scheduling problem for the characters.

With no further delays, Menat should be out in September (alongside MvCI) and Zeku will be out in November. This means there will only be a month between S2 and S3, assuming Sagat (if he's first) comes out in December. Doesn't something seem wrong with that?

I think Capcom would be better off holding Menat back a month (so MvCI has a bit more room to breathe, because God knows it needs it) and pushing Zeku up one, so that both characters launch simultaneously in October.

The delays are confirmed to set back the rest of the schedule? Menat should just drop at the end of August or early September and Zeku should make October. MvCI got bigger problems than SFV DLC tho.

 

[lucebuce12]

hold that shit

Honestly I don't know about normals for AA that much, I always play shotos. But did you go to training with a jumping Gief? Has to be some type of timing to where you AA at least 90% of the time. I hardly ever jump in on Fangs. That AA is buff.

But.... shotos also have AA normals ��

Basically, FANG's st.mk and a very well timed cr.mk gets the job done 95% of the time. Sometimes you can also do a st.lp if he's trying to delay it a bit, but not worth the risk.

But that 5% where it doesn't work, ohhhh boy.

With Birdie, it's a pretty shitty situation since the anti air that covers the space up and in front of him is his cr.hp and that buttons is S-L-O-W. Sometimes Bullhorn is a decent option but not always.

im down, I'll choose honda

Robert-Redford-Nod.gif

 

[mbpm1]

well, like a lot of things on the SFV balance, they supposedly took out throw loops...for some people. ideally they wouldn't be there, or would be a lot worse

They only took those out for "balanced" characters I think. Ryu can't do it bc he's rounded. Rashid can tell you he's sorry friend until kingdom come.

 

[Sayad]

Just think of it as this

Urien wouldn't be able to poke with St.HP if animation and hurtboxes are consistent with each other.

Go to training mode, make Urien whiff st.HP then block with different timings, try whiff punishing it on reaction with Karin's st.MK this time. There's no way you can't react and punish Urien's st.HP unless you have a TV with abysmal lag.

 

[Omnistalgic]

I got BP, fam. I ain't touching SF4 ever again.

But yo, can we bring back supers not eating inputs for SF5 like SF3? I fucking KNOW you pressed a button when I activated.



Not like this, Omni.

I like you, but my money is on Count. lmao

meh...that's all the more reason to play. I think I can beat anyone with enough effort. So if Counts better, then I'll just practice until I can beat him. That's the beauty of fighting games.

 

[Pompadour]

The delays are confirmed to set back the rest of the schedule? Menat should just drop at the end of August or early September and Zeku should make October. MvCI got bigger problems than SFV DLC tho.

There really isn't a schedule, to be fair, so there's no "setting back" anything. One person from CoA said the plan was a character drop every other month so Menat could conceivably come in August.

 

[lucebuce12]

meh...that's all the more reason to play. I think I can beat anyone with enough effort. So if Counts better, then I'll just practice until I can beat him. That's the beauty of fighting games.

While I applaud your spirit, I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to see you pick a low tier in this game

 

[Turbanator]

Pretty sure they also added the whole Crush Counter system late in development, because those early SFV show matches did not have it.

If you're talking about the Capcom Cup build, that was a completely different game from what we got. Between then and E3, Capcom completely trashed the battle system and built a new one from scratch.

 

[Edzi]

While I applaud your spirit, I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to see you pick a low tier in this game

shhh, let him dream.

Hahahahaha...no doubt.

I'll reinstall tonight. Should be fun, I think our connection is good. Let me know when ur free to play

meh...that's all the more reason to play. I think I can beat anyone with enough effort. So if Counts better, then I'll just practice until I can beat him. That's the beauty of fighting games.

STREAM. THIS.

 

[XenoRaven]

I love 2 Old so much. This weekend's actually sold me on USFII.

Last night was the first time I've ever watched it and I have no idea why I waited so long. It was so fun.

Do they have play CVS2 ever?

 

[mbpm1]

Count is actually washed up in sf4, he loses to the average yams

 

[Rickenslacker]

I really just want CCs to be a sweep only thing. It would make things soooo much better imo.

 

[ElFly]

I think Capcom would be better off holding Menat back a month (so MvCI has a bit more room to breathe, because God knows it needs it)

no more delays :/

 

[lucebuce12]

I really just want CCs to be a sweep only thing. It would make things soooo much better imo.

That would be pretty awesome tbh.

 

[CountBlack]

meh...that's all the more reason to play. I think I can beat anyone with enough effort. So if Counts better, then I'll just practice until I can beat him. That's the beauty of fighting games.

just don't get kimosabae'd

Count is actually washed up in sf4, he loses to the average yams

nah I just never learned the rolento matchup after the last ultra patch lol