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Street Fighter V |OTVIII| New Delayed Generation - Controversial Inputs
- Thread starter Reizo Ryuu
- Start date
He only played Karin at Toryuken, and he's been playing a lot of Karin for a long time. Again, there were Karins all over the place at Toryuken, and they're all over the place in general nowadays.
CountBlack
Member
This game does take less effort to be good at. A lot less effort lol. I don't think it's necessarily to downplay the players who have done well it's just facts. They removed 90% of any extra tech that casuals wouldn't want to spend time to learn and kept it barebones as hell. The execution in SFV is mostly a joke and can be done by any random person off the street. IJ2/MKX both have harder execution while catering to casuals better than SFV lol. After speaking with some top players, they definitely would go back to SFIV if there were $150,000 tournaments happening for it lmao, they're not gonna play for $50 anymore.
He just said the game is more volatile I think. I generally agree. I somewhat agree that it's not right to downplay the people who have done well in sfv. What I think is that it's right to downplay everyone who plays sfv. You, me, TLD, Daigo, etc. The game doesn't take as much.
It's still a good game but it is less effort.
He's been playing around with her for a while.
Having that damage is pretty good I guess
Human Trashcan
Banned
perspective, what is that?
Baleoce
Member
The 30th i think
Again, I don't think "execution" means much when all it does is create a ridiculous barrier between the "hardcore" and causal players when most of the audience want something that is far more accessible yet honest to play. I don't think it's barebones because you can still have that one on one, that intensity and mind games in SFV as we have seen in the past year. Smash and NRS games are in the same boat - one of the reasons why they sell so well.
I think the real question is. Is there a balance between execution and accessibility? Possibly. If some players feel like, for instance, they want silly 1-frame links that gives them more damage perhaps Capcom can implement that in future games. As for SFIV still being relevant in tournies, I think if the passion and dedication was still there for game, the community would be successful in reviving it.
is it bad that the game requires less effort from the players?
you are supposed to beat the other player, not the game itself
the whole "1-frames that only give more damage" is probably the worst of both worlds; people will have to grind into perfection to execute combos that look 99% the same except they do more damage, people who don't grind will still know they are doing less than optimal combos and that all that separates them from optimal damage is...hours of grinding
besides, you will be giving randomly more damage to people, because, let's face it, most casual people will hit the 1-frame link from time to time so now you have a game where damage is more random despite people using the same combos
execution and accessibility can be balanced, but execution should not be inside combos (except for the whole part of actually starting the combo) because once you are doing a combo, you are temporarily playing a single player game where proficiency depends on boring training
you are supposed to beat the other player, not the game itself
the whole "1-frames that only give more damage" is probably the worst of both worlds; people will have to grind into perfection to execute combos that look 99% the same except they do more damage, people who don't grind will still know they are doing less than optimal combos and that all that separates them from optimal damage is...hours of grinding
besides, you will be giving randomly more damage to people, because, let's face it, most casual people will hit the 1-frame link from time to time so now you have a game where damage is more random despite people using the same combos
execution and accessibility can be balanced, but execution should not be inside combos (except for the whole part of actually starting the combo) because once you are doing a combo, you are temporarily playing a single player game where proficiency depends on boring training
Basically on the issue i think my view is pretty summed up by what Count said in a discord.
He fought infiltration in sf4 with elena in ultra not long before sfv. He wasn't able to touch him.
He fought Infiltration in SFV with Season 1 laura and Season 1 Nash, when Infiltration was at his peak. He almost beat him just playing his standard game.
Count didn't think that shit should happen, and I tend to agree. The challenge of beating people, when overcome, just feels like how the game goes. The opportunities that people are grasping to win feel handed to you, more so than other games, not like you made them. Of course you hit a big combo and won the game, the system gave you a crush counter. it gave you a three frame link that you can hit in your sleep. It gave you corner carry because your combo sends you two screens over. It likely gave you a good positioning too on knockdown and high stun.
It's a little different. I still enjoy it on a lower level though.
He fought infiltration in sf4 with elena in ultra not long before sfv. He wasn't able to touch him.
He fought Infiltration in SFV with Season 1 laura and Season 1 Nash, when Infiltration was at his peak. He almost beat him just playing his standard game.
Count didn't think that shit should happen, and I tend to agree. The challenge of beating people, when overcome, just feels like how the game goes. The opportunities that people are grasping to win feel handed to you, more so than other games, not like you made them. Of course you hit a big combo and won the game, the system gave you a crush counter. it gave you a three frame link that you can hit in your sleep. It gave you corner carry because your combo sends you two screens over. It likely gave you a good positioning too on knockdown and high stun.
It's a little different. I still enjoy it on a lower level though.
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That could be true but then we also have other questions to ask such as, was Infiltration playing optimally? Was his Elena actually better than his Season 1 Nash? Was Count actually playing better (at that specific time) than Infiltration? So many factors to consider. Not saying SFV is not more accessible, which of course it is, but this is one of the reasons why I like SFV as it makes everything on a more even playing field without big handicaps.
CountBlack
Member
For me, execution would yes show the difference between hardcore and casual players. When everybody can easily do the same thing it get's boring and stagnant. Other games are a lot more open with both defensive and offensive options while in SFV they decided to take both away. I think catering to the casuals/audience is how we got this slight abomination of a game we have now. It's more accessible yes, but you have top players who play this game full-time losing to random fuckery of someone that plays maybe 3 times a week lol. It's like when I had an exhibition set vs Infil and it went down to last match last round.. it shouldn't be this close. You have players trying to squeeze blood from a stone in developing new tech and strategies for this game when the game barely allows it. Not only that, you spend all this time in training mode, playing online, offline, just to guess wrong twice and lose to a random dude that was willing to risk it all lmao.
You don't necessarily need 1f links for more damage, but they need something to make this game look impressive. Everyone can do the same thing with any character within 15 minutes. Players doing max damage combos in SFIV was hype because the audience (at least the FGC audience) knew the difficulty in hitting it. That's what made Sako combos in SFIV hype to see what he could come up with in a system that allows it. A Sako combo in SFV is being able to hit 3 jabs into a special.
Top SF players are gonna play what has the money. If someone wanted to run a circuit with $200K on the line for SFIV, I'm sure players will come out and play it.
TheSpoiler
Member
On the flipside, people have just gotten better at fighting games in general. Tech, learning how to get better and improve, and playing have all gotten easier to learn and do. A lot of younger people are getting better at fighting games and compare that to years ago when all we had were dusty ass strat guides and your friends who might be wrong. Now you can submit your matches online and have it judged.
I think sfv can be a little more random but the mistakes are still your own (mostly....).
I think sfv can be a little more random but the mistakes are still your own (mostly....).
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That could be true but then we also have other questions to ask such as, was Infiltration playing optimally? Was his Elena actually better than his Season 1 Nash? Was Count actually playing better (at that specific time) than Infiltration? So many factors to consider. Not saying SFV is not more accessible, which of course it is, but this is one of the reasons why I like SFV as it makes everything on a more even playing field without big handicaps.
It also comes down to what you want to see, like you said. I think it's also about that as well as accessibility.
Getting in was definitely harder unless you played someone like El Fuerte because of good anti-airs and good and varied neutral options. Once there knockdown situations were...I guess it wasn't too different. But staying in while your opponent was on their feet was much harder. Making inside situations like that count was also considerably more difficult.
Defense is what's high level now in this game, whereas it's reversed for sfiv.
CountBlack
Member
NeedToSeeReceipts.gif
That could be true but then we also have other questions to ask such as, was Infiltration playing optimally? Was his Elena actually better than his Season 1 Nash? Was Count actually playing better (at that specific time) than Infiltration? So many factors to consider. Not saying SFV is not more accessible, which of course it is, but this is one of the reasons why I like SFV as it makes everything on a more even playing field without big handicaps.
All these factors lol.
Infiltration is the Evo champion. I'm a random canadian. This dude shouldn't be sweating from playing a random pot monster lol, I could hear him getting upset whenever he chose rock instead of scissors. but this is the game we play.
How is having a better understanding of the game systems considered a big handicap? That just means you spent more time refining your craft over the other player. In this game all of that doesn't really matter since anyone can get clipped by a random crush counter and lose instantly.
Shit one of the only 2 defensive mechanics in this game is being taken out because it gave a leg up over casual players lol shit makes no sense. Casuals already hate this game anyway lmao
Current Evo champion didn't even make it out of pools at his last event. Seeing Sako vs Brian_F I know there's no chance in hell that Sako is winning that lmao, not discrediting Brian_F cause he's a lord but like there's no chance of victory in that for Sako.
Rickenslacker
Banned
Execution is about one of the least interesting things to see as a spectator for me, as at that level people are pretty efficient and repetitive about it regardless, even in SF4. It's effectively a single player component within the match. I'm more interested in confirms and how offense opens up, and that's where SFV could use tweaking imo.
CountBlack
Member
Now you are downplaying yourself.
It's not about downplaying myself, it's about a player who plays this game as a full-time job and a player that doesn't play nearly half as much as the other does.
You pretty much just gotta pray to the RNG gods that you guess right.
In SFIV, El Fuerte was the most annoying character possibly of all time, but the game gave you a plethora of defensive options to deal with him. In SFV all you got are prayers. Especially with the extra input lag added into the game it's even worse.
TheSpoiler
Member
Time to start a SF4 revival. Your time is over SFV
ColonialHawk
Member
I don't like 1-frame links but if they were to be re-added, I hope they make them optional. I've been playing SFIV again and my favorite part is the neutral in it. Just trying to out button each is great and if SFV can change up their neutral, it'll definitely make the game better. I still don't like how stiff SFIV, but I can't deny how good the neutral is.
And Count I think your way better than most pot monsters.
And Count I think your way better than most pot monsters.
TheSpoiler
Member
Just give us more defensive options. Make guessing less. That's my biggest issue.
Nemesis121
Member
That movement died...gimme Alpha 3 with GGPO Netcode...
Zombegoast
Member
time to buy a Switch and get USF2. Alpha 3 is not happening after the joke they tried to pull
virtua fighter 5 final showdown has very easy execution on the vast majority of inputs and a very friendly input buffer, and that's the best fighting game of all time. (and a skilled player will 100% pick apart a weak player). Maybe the issue isn't just whether or not a game has an execution barrier, but whether or not there is actually anything worthwhile happening beyond the option selects and the 1frames?
biggest issue i had when playing sf5 was how it felt like playing connect-the-dots with a very simple game-plan depending on the character I was playing. When playing Guilty Gear I feel much more in control of how I am choosing to approach the game via the character I've chosen and this holds true for someone playing with the "stylish" input mode too because there is actually stuff to do, choices to make beyond "am I going on or waiting for my opponent to go in?" Having RPS in a fighting game is fine, but when that's most of what's going on it is sus as hell.
biggest issue i had when playing sf5 was how it felt like playing connect-the-dots with a very simple game-plan depending on the character I was playing. When playing Guilty Gear I feel much more in control of how I am choosing to approach the game via the character I've chosen and this holds true for someone playing with the "stylish" input mode too because there is actually stuff to do, choices to make beyond "am I going on or waiting for my opponent to go in?" Having RPS in a fighting game is fine, but when that's most of what's going on it is sus as hell.
play vf5fs, it's a good game
sixteen-bit
Member
Urien really fell off a cliff, huh. It's weird. I still feel like he could be considered the strongest S2 character currently, but he never really took off like Balrog or Laura. Maybe it's because he's not as volatile. He's the one who's getting nerfed the most in the upcoming patch, too.
TheSpoiler
Member
What happened to all those cute setups people had?
It really is weird and it's not because he's a charge character as we have Balrog in that mix. I wonder what has happened to RB? Haven't seen him in tournies recently. His Urien was great.
Rickenslacker
Banned
The mob out for Urien was always much ado about nothing, he was strong, but not problematically so. He'll still be fine after the nerfs I think, but Capcom went the wrong way about it.
Has this game changed significantly since season 1? I haven't played in a long time and I'm especially strapped for time these days. Thinking bout jumping back in, but I'm digging this new Guilty Gear(loathe learning a whole nother system), and then theres Tekken dropping soon.
TheSpoiler
Member
Maybe, but I don't think they are too considerable. They just make him more fun to play against rather than straight balance.
I'd say Urien is probably the strongest top tier but also the one that requires the most work, so you maybe don't see him tearing things up as much as Laura and Balrog. In this regard he's kinda like Chun in S1.
That doesn't mean he doesn't need some nerfs (another thing he shares in common with S1 Chun), but still. That said, we might see Nemo crush some people tomorrow, so who knows.
That doesn't mean he doesn't need some nerfs (another thing he shares in common with S1 Chun), but still. That said, we might see Nemo crush some people tomorrow, so who knows.
It's always a cross up first, then not a cross up if you block it.What happened to all those cute setups people had?
He sucks vs fireballs (Guile), and EX headbutt is not nearly as good as reversal as many assume it is even without the added recovery.
People figured out dealing with EX Tackle.
He still look cool tho.
No dp invincibility except for EX
The top tiers are all burst damage and in general the game favour burst damage instead of control like S1
I was hoping for KBrad to be the US Cammy Warrior, but I guess Karin's buttons are just too strong
TheSpoiler
Member
I think he should keep both. He can be clean he just needs more confidence.
Zombegoast
Member
IDK, I think his Cr.MP buff was very stupid for how good of a reach it has. And then the EX Tackle that is impossible to react and punish unless you play Rashid or have a invincible Reversal.
Ah, I see. So characters like Rog.
Shouta
Member
The Core A video sorta misses the problem with SFV. It isn't that the fact execution is simplified, it's that the execution got simplified and they gutted the complexity of the game. All of the stuff that got dumped, like the wider variety of normals, added a lot, IMO. That stuff is absolutely needed in the game because when the skill gap is mitigated, knowledge and the practical application of that becomes a bigger component to everything.
As Brobzoid points out, VF5FS isn't that difficult in regards to execution and it has a very generous buffer. Yeah, it does have some tech and a few harder to execute chars but it's not a difficult game to pick up and start doing stuff. The complexity comes from learning the interactions, the situations, and all that. The skill comes from that knowledge and being able use it.
As Brobzoid points out, VF5FS isn't that difficult in regards to execution and it has a very generous buffer. Yeah, it does have some tech and a few harder to execute chars but it's not a difficult game to pick up and start doing stuff. The complexity comes from learning the interactions, the situations, and all that. The skill comes from that knowledge and being able use it.
what does rashid have to do with it lol
Zombegoast
Member
His Cr.MK is low enough that he can punish EX Tackle
https://twitter.com/Tingcos/status/...es/2017/feb/02/interruption-uriens-ex-tackle/
direct_quote
Member
Yah that was my issue too with the video as well. In addition to complaints about input lag too. Smash4 has a high input buffer and so does Tekken. IJ2 has an option to add input lag to reduce rollback in netplay. I think the higher input lag was added to make online player similar to offline play (according to some at least). Because he makes a point about this too without mentioning Tekkn 7's high input lag compared to previous entries.
I think reducing options a player has reduces complexity, but also reducing play styles... Like whatever that people don't have as many close range normals because some characters like Guile and Nash have a ton of command normals, but the fact that rush down is always the best option makes the game play mostly the same. The only real character that can sort of zone in this game is Guile, but even then you see top Guile players not throwing booms unless close to full screen because throwing projectiles in this game is such a risk (like I get at certain ranges projectiles should be a risk, but if someone jumps in on you anyway you lose so much then just hitting someone with a projectile)... Guile in SF4 yah you had focus and some anti projectile moves, but I feel you could still anti air people consistently enough so if you planned your play style out you could win a zoning game. Not in SFV (except in certain matchups obviously), because one jump in and someone is in there. Feels like in SF4 people had to earn that jump in...
There's probably as much anti-fireball stuff as SF4 with worse fireballs.