Weltall Zero
Member
The blog doesn't seem to be monetized and the article is both well written and an important opinion on a topic that definitely merits as much discussion as possible.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
"Strong" female characters: This is not the representation we're looking for
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
The blog doesn't seem to be monetized and the article is both well written and an important opinion on a topic that definitely merits as much discussion as possible.
AlimNassor
Banned
Strong Female characters are usually the worst. They're boring, and wooden badasses that need no man. They aren't people. They're the male version of an generic action hero.
Autoignition
Member
Butthurt that there was no praise for Aeris in this piece, since in my mind she's a paragon of feminist ideals manifest in a single character. Tifa is complex and can beat a dude's shit in at the same time, which is awesome, but no one asserts herself and calls out sexist bullshit as consistently and wonderfully as Aeris did (while also being an OP powerhouse who can legit break the game).
But that's irrelevant.
This is probably the most important paragraph in this piece, IMO:
The fact of the matter is that women and men experience the world differently. And with a lack of women in the room during development, there aren't enough voices (or any, since sexism is so rampant and the women who are there won't want to risk their jobs by speaking up) present to say, "Hey, uh... Women don't think/talk/act like this." Since the golden rule of writing is, "Write what you know," men write women as they perceive them to be most of the time, which isn't necessarily reflective of how women actually are.
Even well-meaning men get this wrong sometimes. For as awesome as George R. R. Martin is, there are plenty of times in ASOIAF where I find myself reading a female character chapter and get smacked with the, "holy crap this was written by a man" sensation.
But that's irrelevant.
This is probably the most important paragraph in this piece, IMO:
The fact of the matter is that women and men experience the world differently. And with a lack of women in the room during development, there aren't enough voices (or any, since sexism is so rampant and the women who are there won't want to risk their jobs by speaking up) present to say, "Hey, uh... Women don't think/talk/act like this." Since the golden rule of writing is, "Write what you know," men write women as they perceive them to be most of the time, which isn't necessarily reflective of how women actually are.
Even well-meaning men get this wrong sometimes. For as awesome as George R. R. Martin is, there are plenty of times in ASOIAF where I find myself reading a female character chapter and get smacked with the, "holy crap this was written by a man" sensation.
Solid Raiden
Neo Member
I've certainly heard about this way of developing games before. I remember Naughty Dog developing Uncharted 3 that way (to its detriment). I guess that is why we still see the best developed characters in RPG's with few exceptions.
Jeronimo Jones
Member
It's probably over-compensation. Female game characters have traditionally been so weak that to avoid the stereotype, they are now being written to be "strong" though that is poorly defined and executed. Even white male main characters who have been around since the beginning are usually of the "strong" stereotype.
Hell Blade's protagonist is female and suffering from some kind of mental illness, so more realistic and flawed female characters are being attempted by some developers.
It seems like the industry is taking baby steps towards more diversity and variety in characters and stories.
Hell Blade's protagonist is female and suffering from some kind of mental illness, so more realistic and flawed female characters are being attempted by some developers.
It seems like the industry is taking baby steps towards more diversity and variety in characters and stories.
Aqua is kind of the Hestia archetype personified: she's brave, and loyal, and courageous and kind, she's willing to sacrifice everything for her friends. But this is also a drawback - she overlooks Terra's descent into darkness until it's too late, because she wants to believe the best of him. Over the course of the game she becomes less idealistic and naive due to the traumatic shit she goes through, but she never loses her compassion and kindness. She's amazing ♥
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Got anything else to say?
To me it means a female character with all the depth and relateable humanity as (well constructed) male characters. See: Trish in TLoU, Mae in Night in the Woods, Gwendolyn in Odin Sphere.
Basically a female character who has actual character (Tiny Tina) as opposed to existing largely as a two-dimensional prop (the female lead in DmC: Devil May Cry).
I suspect mass market needs, focus testing and various other realities play a role though. Writing a complex character that still works in a game seems to be very difficult work and not something everyone could accomplish. I feel like these arugements don't always take into account the reality of creating these massive games. What you're asking for would be great in an ideal situation, at least, but it's a tall order.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
If the reviews are to be believed, Aloy is a very well rounded character.
This is why I prefer Sansa over Arya in Game of Thrones.
Before you come down on me for speaking such sacriledge, the reason is simple: once Arya started learning her revenge techniques, including...
skin-changing, stabbing people in their sleep, and other fantasy assassin techniques
I stopped worrying about her.
Whereas with Sansa, 99% of every interaction she has with people feels like one false move can lead to her demise, or worse. It's like her whole life is a dialog choice where the wrong prompt instantly leads to Bad End.
I find that far more interesting than the "Muh Revenge" character, even though I do think Arya is also rad.
I mostly agree with your article, but I don't really consider Aqua being a very strong female character. She is pretty good in Kingdom Hearts standards, but I didn't feel like she had much personality at all, and ended up being more of a bland state who was just cleaning the mess left by the other protagonists. Her main chacteristic seemed to just be "I need to protect my friends", which is not enough for an interesting female character with actual personality. 0.2 didn't really help on this regard, as almost all of her dialogue was very bland. I don't know, maybe it's the voice acting. Agreed on the other picks though, and nice on pointing out what things make Chloe Frazer work.
I think the issue is is not that it's drastically less popular, it's that we haven't had really solid main character designs that are Black per se that are also in a well designed game. I'm sure if more good games had people of other races as the lead while that character's design being something memorable, people would like it. Not ignoring racism isn't in the world, but I still feel this way.
Great write-up. When I use the phrase "strong female character", what I usually mean is a Strong Character in the sense that they're written well, are well-rounded, have a nice arc if necessary, are relatable, etc. You know, not strong in combat prowess or ability necessarily, but in actual character.
A "strong female character" can be a very strong person, a very weak person, a benevolent person, a selfish person, good, evil, small, large, rich, poor, whatever.
I think too many people take the term to mean "She can murder real good!", especially in video games where our favorite form of interacting with these virtual worlds is usually murdering something.
A "strong female character" can be a very strong person, a very weak person, a benevolent person, a selfish person, good, evil, small, large, rich, poor, whatever.
I think too many people take the term to mean "She can murder real good!", especially in video games where our favorite form of interacting with these virtual worlds is usually murdering something.
You aren't missing anything. .2 manages to make her a little less dull than she was in BBS but that's it. She's probably the best female character in KH but that's not really saying much.
JonnyDBrit
Member
There's an unfortunately high disconnect when it comes to the understanding of such terminology, both between academia and laymen, but also across differing mediums. Younger, more visual mediums - video games and comic books especially - have tended more towards falling into the trap of the literal interpretation, and even where they attempt to apply nuance, often do so from that starting base. This where you get stuff like the debate over the reboot of Lara Croft and the wider Tomb Raider series, both in terms of feminist readings but also general fan reaction. The first game got a lot of flak before it was even out for making Lara appear 'weak', lacking a great deal of confidence, being depicted in peril, and getting beaten up a fair bit - at odds with being a literally strong female character as she had been depicted prior. Rise of the Tomb Raider however also saw a fair bit of questioning over Lara's willingness to kill and seeming brutality in the game prior to release, indicating a fear among some that she was leaning too much into being a literal strong female character of a different variety, one which they did not like.
Both of these criticisms are rooted mainly in the literal interpretation, but I imagine were more motivated by the idea of 'strong female character' as a standard of writing quality more than anything, and an uncertainty on how to qualify that, especially with Lara being an icon in the industry. The actual consistency or quality of the writing was much less in question than the basic behaviour on display.
Autoignition
Member
#SansaStarkProtectionSquad represent.
Its interesting talking about female characters on a deeper level. I'm wondering if motherhood has ever really factored into gaming characters? I honestly can't think of a mother as the main character of a game. I wonder what that relationship would do to a woman's motivations in a bombastic AAA title.
I'm the same, I have often yelled at the page when reading Sansa, but her reactions make perfect sense to her as a person, same with Catelyn, I think she is the strongest woman in the series and never lifts a sword. She also makes a terrible mistake in the first book.
I'm the same, I have often yelled at the page when reading Sansa, but her reactions make perfect sense to her as a person, same with Catelyn, I think she is the strongest woman in the series and never lifts a sword. She also makes a terrible mistake in the first book.
UnemployedVillain
Member
I agree with pretty much everything that was said, except for this part
The idea that physical strength being seen as admirable is only a symptom of toxic masculinity seems incredibly reductive. You can't go on and list different ways a character can be seen as strong, yet arbitrarily consider one form (physical) as on a lower tier. That seems almost like a weird, I dunno, matriarchal ideology?
Like you said, strength can manifest in a variety of forms, and it all comes down to execution, but you seem to be saying that this form of strength is inherently masculine and, as a result, toxic.
The idea that physical strength being seen as admirable is only a symptom of toxic masculinity seems incredibly reductive. You can't go on and list different ways a character can be seen as strong, yet arbitrarily consider one form (physical) as on a lower tier. That seems almost like a weird, I dunno, matriarchal ideology?
Like you said, strength can manifest in a variety of forms, and it all comes down to execution, but you seem to be saying that this form of strength is inherently masculine and, as a result, toxic.
Aizo
Banned
I don't know if you wrote about it in your article, but my friend who is a feminist and writer really loves Ripley (Alien film) for being literally a character that was written as a male. I don't know the full story, but I was told that they wrote the main character as a man, although they later decided, after everything, to have the character played by a woman.
BlueBomberX
Banned
Don't take this the wrong way, but since you wrote this for college, punctuation goes inside quotation marks.
Otherwise, it seems well written. I'll finish it later and give feedback on the content then.
Otherwise, it seems well written. I'll finish it later and give feedback on the content then.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
There was that one indie game where you played a mother that can turn into a wolf. I don't think it was good though.
Reminds me of the exploitation-related rise of "strong" black characters in comics and films of the '70s, which ultimately fed into even more one-dimensional African-American representation in media. Here's an admittedly brief/quick look at the issue revolving around the 2013 Oscars: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/m...-are-still-too-good-too-bad-or-invisible.html ... not same exact thing but certainly similar origin of "when people other than who's being represented are doing all the writing, this is what happens"
Finale Fireworker
Member
I believe the script was written without indicating the gender of Ripley and most other characters. They were cast indiscriminate of gender - which is how we got Ripley. In screenwriting, sometimes people write their scripts "like Alien" and write characters without considering their gender or what they look like. This helps them stay away from common literary traps and helps them write equally strong characters regardless of their normative gender qualities.
I agree that flat character archetypes aren't the way forward, but with both the general audience and the developers being mostly male, it isn't that strange for female characters to be written by perpetuating archetypes rather than coming up with more unique interpretations.
Also, the female character being "strong" or having lots of agency doesn't make her a good character since whether it's good or bad writing often depends on the kind of story the work might want to convey. Bioshock 1 shocked many people with its plot twist, and that relied on a moment of extreme powerlessness that still felt amazing.
Writing female characters that could easily be replaced by male characters without the script changing at all sounds like a bad idea to me, but at the same time writing female characters that feel female is threading a thin line, because it takes skill and tact to write them well and avoid just relying on looking up a list of female character stereotypes and building them with that as your sole reference, and is pretty hard to do when the majority of people working on games is still male.
Also, the female character being "strong" or having lots of agency doesn't make her a good character since whether it's good or bad writing often depends on the kind of story the work might want to convey. Bioshock 1 shocked many people with its plot twist, and that relied on a moment of extreme powerlessness that still felt amazing.
Writing female characters that could easily be replaced by male characters without the script changing at all sounds like a bad idea to me, but at the same time writing female characters that feel female is threading a thin line, because it takes skill and tact to write them well and avoid just relying on looking up a list of female character stereotypes and building them with that as your sole reference, and is pretty hard to do when the majority of people working on games is still male.
Autoignition
Member
Arioch in Drakengard 1 wasn't the main character, but she was playable in your party as a main character. She was a mom... but uh... lmao... Maybe not the best representation of one.
Don't get me wrong, Arioch is actually my favorite character in that game, but in terms of "representing motherhood" um.
You think it's only gamedev related?
I would say 99.9% of all people in the world don't know how to write a complex person.
Good write-up. While it's certainly not true everywhere though, I feel as though most instances of the 'strong female character' discussion I've had have generally been a shorthand way of saying 'multi-faceted female character with depth and agency' or even just to define a woman who bucks the standard trends. Not necessarily 'strong' in the very definition of the word.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
OP it's not just video games that suffer from this. Games are the worst when it comes to this subject but comics and movie have had this exact same problem that still happens occasionally. Unlike games they have taken large steps in trying to get better.
Do you not read books? Cuz that is very false.
TC McQueen
Member
Fuck, I remember seeing this horror game about a mom who lives in Scandinavia and has to go find in son while dodging weird Norse inspired monsters, but I don't know the name. It's in the Super Best Friends Shitstorm V (which is all horror games). Here's a compilation that's 2 hours long, so if you scrub through it, you should find it.
Basically exactly my reply, but much better. I really need to stretch my writing legs again haha.
Oranging so I can read when I'm off work.
Quick thoughts based on the TL;DR and summary
You pretty much nailed the archetypes. I'm curious if the article goes into some good and bad examples of each. As you note there's nothing inherently wrong with any of them but man can they be done poorly.
Curious was there a particular event that inspired the article or was this just something that needed to be said sooner rather than later? I really enjoyed the FFXV analysis.
Quick thoughts based on the TL;DR and summary
You pretty much nailed the archetypes. I'm curious if the article goes into some good and bad examples of each. As you note there's nothing inherently wrong with any of them but man can they be done poorly.
Curious was there a particular event that inspired the article or was this just something that needed to be said sooner rather than later? I really enjoyed the FFXV analysis.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
That makes me feel very special. Thanks for the compliment.
Chû Totoro
Member
I agree so much. Please respect women and don't act like a good representation of them in games is "strong".
Again I'll repeat (maybe people will understand one day), the best representation of any gender, any minorities is the one where you respect them. And for me, since I don't think gaming industry is racist, it begins with designers choices.
And yes I can respect "strong" female characters choices too if it fits and if it's not like "we wanted to put a male with lots of weapons and muscles and since we're inclusive we changed the sex and defined the female character as strong"
A women can be represented as sexy and have nothing insulting there. Same for strong of course but since it seems to be standardized as "good female representation equals strong female character" I find it at least useless and stupid if not insulting too.
That's why Bayonetta was for me a good female character despite being super sexy.
She is both strong and sexy to me <3
Maybe each have its own definition of "strong" woman but for me it's a woman that can make her own decisions and choices.
If you want to take care of your kids you're as strong as an Entrepreneur imo. The most important thing is that all this has to be your choice and sadly society still makes some decisions to be very difficult to make for some women.
Again I'll repeat (maybe people will understand one day), the best representation of any gender, any minorities is the one where you respect them. And for me, since I don't think gaming industry is racist, it begins with designers choices.
And yes I can respect "strong" female characters choices too if it fits and if it's not like "we wanted to put a male with lots of weapons and muscles and since we're inclusive we changed the sex and defined the female character as strong"
A women can be represented as sexy and have nothing insulting there. Same for strong of course but since it seems to be standardized as "good female representation equals strong female character" I find it at least useless and stupid if not insulting too.
That's why Bayonetta was for me a good female character despite being super sexy.
She is both strong and sexy to me <3
Maybe each have its own definition of "strong" woman but for me it's a woman that can make her own decisions and choices.
If you want to take care of your kids you're as strong as an Entrepreneur imo. The most important thing is that all this has to be your choice and sadly society still makes some decisions to be very difficult to make for some women.
The Futurist
Member
I've always been conflicted about both the "strong female" approach and the "real person" approach.
Who defines what "real person" means?
So if a female character is written to be weak, dumb, or useless in any way, why is that such a bad thing? There are women like that in the world.
Just like there are men that are exactly the same.
The "strong female" concept exists because people take offense if you write a women that isn't commanding, independent, and able to completely take care of herself in every possible way.
People tend to get very angry if you don't write every female character in this way.
Men can be written as absolute trash, which is also fine, but no one really cares.
I understand that the argument is that males tend to be heroes in media and women are the victims. Or the ones that need saving.
Well, there is a reason we are naturally inclined to gravitate towards the idea the the man is dominant. Especially in video games where physicality often takes such an important role. You can create any kind of world where the rules may be different, but our natural response is to create based on what we are as a species.
It's biology, or physiology, or evolution. Whatever you want.
Games in particular have had male heroes, because as a species, male humans are physically superior to female humans. That's not something that can be argued or changed.
That's kind of a random tangent though.
Who defines what "real person" means?
So if a female character is written to be weak, dumb, or useless in any way, why is that such a bad thing? There are women like that in the world.
Just like there are men that are exactly the same.
The "strong female" concept exists because people take offense if you write a women that isn't commanding, independent, and able to completely take care of herself in every possible way.
People tend to get very angry if you don't write every female character in this way.
Men can be written as absolute trash, which is also fine, but no one really cares.
I understand that the argument is that males tend to be heroes in media and women are the victims. Or the ones that need saving.
Well, there is a reason we are naturally inclined to gravitate towards the idea the the man is dominant. Especially in video games where physicality often takes such an important role. You can create any kind of world where the rules may be different, but our natural response is to create based on what we are as a species.
It's biology, or physiology, or evolution. Whatever you want.
Games in particular have had male heroes, because as a species, male humans are physically superior to female humans. That's not something that can be argued or changed.
That's kind of a random tangent though.
I read a lot of books. Same issue with characters in most of them.
It's not written for college, it's written while procrastinating on uni work. Also in British English they go outside
Peroroncino
Member
It was nice knowing you.
Yeah, most of the reviewers seem to like her as a character.
Back-In-Black
Banned
I'm still scared about Arya, especially about her "soul." She might make it out the series alive but I'm concerned what all this violence will have on her psyche when it's all over. They're both fantastically written characters in the books though. Also, the fact that she is becoming more "badass" is precisely why I'm more afraid about her well being. The books have shown time and time again that being more "badass" is not a good thing and will often get you killed.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
From female authors?
NipplesAndToes23
Member
I disagree with that then. Makes me worry about that statistic then. Majority of books I read have very well written female characters including male characters. Hard for me to even think of a badly written book.
AcademicSaucer
Member
video game writing is kind of bad in general