This right here is another thing that, as a woman, annoys the living heck out of me in media. Not every hot bombshell dresses provocatively 24/7.
"Strong" female characters: This is not the representation we're looking for
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
This right here is another thing that, as a woman, annoys the living heck out of me in media. Not every hot bombshell dresses provocatively 24/7.
I was hoping that Persona 5 would have a girl as the protagonist this time, and I don't mean as an option like in P3P. It's easy to think that the MC in a Persona game is just an empty vessel for the player to possess, but I think it's important since the game is heavy on slice-of-life stuff. It would be nice to play a girl character that does normal stuff too.
Plus it would probably cut down on the waifu crap too.
Plus it would probably cut down on the waifu crap too.
They'd just convert them to husbandos ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Not sure if this is a spoiler but in Bound,
the woman who is revisiting her memories through the book she drew as a child is an expectant mother. I think that plays into her trying to get in contact with her father.
Excellent essay OP!
From the number of games that I've played, only very few female characters has come to my mind that I've found interesting.
- A lot of the female NPCs in Fallout: New Vegas are pretty great.
- I like Estelle from Trails in the Sky FC
- Ellie in TLOU, I also enjoyed.
And... It's really hard to come up with other examples. But overall, I enjoyed New Vegas the most when it comes to character diversity.
From the number of games that I've played, only very few female characters has come to my mind that I've found interesting.
- A lot of the female NPCs in Fallout: New Vegas are pretty great.
- I like Estelle from Trails in the Sky FC
- Ellie in TLOU, I also enjoyed.
And... It's really hard to come up with other examples. But overall, I enjoyed New Vegas the most when it comes to character diversity.
shnurgleton
Member
When I hear "strong [gender] character" usually I interpret that as the characterization being strong, not the character him/herself.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
The problem is the opposite happens more.
Take notes Druckmann. Hennig didn't need to force the player to go through the worst "levels" ever (the garbage scripted unwinnable "fights" with Nadine in which you can only spam square hopelessly until the next cutscene triggers) to create some of the best female characters in gaming.
Making a character out of a checklist is never a good idea.
Making a character out of a checklist is never a good idea.
keraj37
Contacted PSN to add his card back to his account
Yep.
That is why my favorite writer is Dostoyewski who does the art of character creation in master level.
I didn't play newest Tomb Raider, but from what I red Lara Croft is well written - still of course it is not perfect.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Ah yeah, Ellie, that's someone else I quite enjoyed. Others for me are in RPGs where female characters are more present and seeing more of their personal side aside from the main plot helps them become memorable.
I find there's nothing wrong with Beatrix being a badass and violent. That's exactly what I like about her.
I find there's nothing wrong with Beatrix being a badass and violent. That's exactly what I like about her.
Well, A girl being able to become romantic with any guy just by talking to him enough is a whole lot more realistic than a guy being able to do the same with girls.
One of the family relationships in Overwatch is between a mother and daughter. Ana (the mom) is a really delightful character. While OW certainly isn't story focused, it has made for some fun interactions and really hits home how absent this type of relationship is in a good bit of media.
It actually even brings up another point with female characters, and that's the role older women play. Talk about nonexistent.
What lol? What makes that more realistic than if a guy did it??
Autoignition
Member
I agree with the premise of your article but I disagree with your conclusion OP.
The issue is a complex one which isn't a case of giving female characters clothes and a sword. It is way more complex than that and I think the developers have began to notice from all the critic they have received. But obviously we have yet to reach the holy grail of positive representation so there is still a lot to learn. A lot of these developers do have women in their lives whether that be a spouse or a daughter, sibling etc so of course a lot do care of how much harm their product can have. Anita has done a good job at pointing out some of the flaws that exist within the main viewpoints which is often male isn't it.
There is a current issue with regards to finding balance with regards to showing a positive character and meeting the demands customers expect. A case example is Neil Druckmann at Naughty Dog, you don't need to look to far away to see how much Anita's critic has influenced the way he directs characters, it definitely played a big role in Ellie's narrative and also the reason why Uncharted 4 has less shooting action bang Delete repeated word -- which has received very negative backlash from people on GAF
Even though we can refer to Ellie as a positive show of female character, she is a mass murderer (Enyo) so she is flawed since she learned from a mass murderer anyway. But then again, flaws is also part of what makes a character interesting and complex, no?
I feel until developers find a way to breakaway from using violence as a gameplay trope to tell a story, it will be hard to develop much more complex stories that doesn't involve people killing each other. There needs to be experiment to find gameplay structures and system that can replicate the sense of adrenalin, suspense and stress like the ones found in those action games otherwise we are stuck in this same loop.
Why can we not have a game like that of women who work as humanitarian in some warzone, a woman who actively does her all to help children who have suffered from famine, diseases and the likes but as a character flaw, she has a drug problem which sometimes lead to do things she regrets. This type of character can be done in film, but to make a game for it, I am not sure
The issue is a complex one which isn't a case of giving female characters clothes and a sword. It is way more complex than that and I think the developers have began to notice from all the critic they have received. But obviously we have yet to reach the holy grail of positive representation so there is still a lot to learn. A lot of these developers do have women in their lives whether that be a spouse or a daughter, sibling etc so of course a lot do care of how much harm their product can have. Anita has done a good job at pointing out some of the flaws that exist within the main viewpoints which is often male isn't it.
There is a current issue with regards to finding balance with regards to showing a positive character and meeting the demands customers expect. A case example is Neil Druckmann at Naughty Dog, you don't need to look to far away to see how much Anita's critic has influenced the way he directs characters, it definitely played a big role in Ellie's narrative and also the reason why Uncharted 4 has less shooting action bang Delete repeated word -- which has received very negative backlash from people on GAF
Even though we can refer to Ellie as a positive show of female character, she is a mass murderer (Enyo) so she is flawed since she learned from a mass murderer anyway. But then again, flaws is also part of what makes a character interesting and complex, no?
I feel until developers find a way to breakaway from using violence as a gameplay trope to tell a story, it will be hard to develop much more complex stories that doesn't involve people killing each other. There needs to be experiment to find gameplay structures and system that can replicate the sense of adrenalin, suspense and stress like the ones found in those action games otherwise we are stuck in this same loop.
Why can we not have a game like that of women who work as humanitarian in some warzone, a woman who actively does her all to help children who have suffered from famine, diseases and the likes but as a character flaw, she has a drug problem which sometimes lead to do things she regrets. This type of character can be done in film, but to make a game for it, I am not sure
I agree. Too often is "strong" conflated with badass. It can also easily lead to a character that's just flat.
I'm not sure I'd go that far. Of course has he been open about that Anita has influenced him positively, but looking at Last of Us he always had a focus on, slow, quiet moments. I think he merely transferred that to Uncharted.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Honestly one of my favorite female characters I saw as "strong" as a kid was Kazooie from Banjo-Kazooie, simply for being like no other female character in gaming at the time---as far as cartoon animals go, she wasn't overtly feminine (she had eyelashes and kind of wore makeup, but it wasn't that noticeable as say Dixie or that mouse from DKR) and while you could argue the female lead literally being stuck in a backpack the whole game was a bit odd, her personality was endearing and she came across as crass and crude without crossing that line into coming across as a "nag". It helped she wasn't above it all, she got the same amount of abuse as she dished out.
Banjo-Tooie, though as a game I think it's a tad inferior to the original, did a good job at making Kazooie and Grunty even stronger characters, the former by making her even more outspoken and giving her additional playability, and playing as her was far funner IMO, while Grunty ditched the sexist "I want to be prettier!" plot and just went full on supervillain akin to Dr. Robotnik.
Banjo-Tooie, though as a game I think it's a tad inferior to the original, did a good job at making Kazooie and Grunty even stronger characters, the former by making her even more outspoken and giving her additional playability, and playing as her was far funner IMO, while Grunty ditched the sexist "I want to be prettier!" plot and just went full on supervillain akin to Dr. Robotnik.
Chû Totoro
Member
Yeah I agree with this too. Sadly when it's about "white" community things are like less important to take into consideration...
And then some are taking shortcuts and voting Trump because they think nobody is talking to them anymore.
I'm taking shortcuts here too but you get the idea, that's why I don't like the term "inclusive" too... don't f*cking "include" people in your team because you want to be good. Take good people in your Team and you'll see how magically, some will be women, minorities... or both !
Also bring education to minorities and you'll have even more talented people knocking at your door. Yeah I know crazy, we have the same brains :O
Still some whites are poor, some whites don't have access to education, some whites are working hard and have a difficult life... let's not act like because it's even harder for black people that we shouldn't think about everyone who needs it !
note: I'm going a little of topic here but I've been in the US since Trump election (after vote but before him being the actual President) and people were afraid about a divided country. I think that it's indeed the best chance to make the people working together for a real change. And I'm hoping to have the same in France with some Politicians starting to listen and talk to people voting for Marine Le Pen because blaming them and acting like they're dumb and whatever is not the best way to get them back on track :/
JustSomeone
Member
Tbh 99% of male characters in video games are cardboard characters as well
A guy wouldn't be able to do it.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Ana is the best character in Overwatch. Everything she says during gameplay doesn't make me cringe or sound like something out of a Saturday morning cartoon.
UnemployedVillain
Member
I think part of the issue is that "strong" when talking about male characters refers to physical strength, strength of will, strength of determination, etc, while when it's about female characters "strong" refers to characterization. Both groups are using the same words, in seemingly the same way, and talking about completely different things.
For instance this thread is almost primarily about characterization and avoiding tropes and archetypes. If the equivalent was written about male characters the title would be "Well written male characters"
I think we need to decide on how to use the word, or be very specific about which meaning we're referring to
Uncharted 2 also had slow moments where the pace was exactly on point. In Uncharted 4, it was dialled up a lot which is why it was very noticeable hence the backlash. The prevalence of violence was one of the major critic Anita mentioned about it being toxic masculinity
Yep.
That is why my favorite writer is Dostoyewski who does the art of character creation in master level.
I didn't play newest Tomb Raider, but from what I red Lara Croft is well written - still of course it is not perfect.
I've played a bit of it and it felt like the script was trying to reconcile itself with the level design that was already in place. For example, in one of the early action scenes where
Lara kills someone for the first time, the fight itself that ends in said kill is treated with a fair amount of gravity, but then that's just the start of a whole action scene where you have to kill like 10 more people. It tries to acknowledge that by having Lara she was bothered by how quickly she got used to killing people, but it doesn't really feel natural with how she was being characterized before.
When a girl I know asked about a game for her nephew in Twitter, she said that wanted a game with a strong female lead because she wanted to teach him morals and values and how important is to have strong female protagonists and that males can play as females I guess. a game for ps4 by the way.
As soon as I saw this I recommended TLOU to her immediately, because honestly I can't think of a better female character than Ellie out of all the games I've played. Not only is she "strong" in the badass sense of the word, but also a very well written and acted character that puts most of the female representation in gaming to shame.
Well, she didn't care about my recommendation and got him Tomb Raider instead.
Who's at fault now? Are you really trying to teach a lesson in feminism through fucking Tomb Raider?
Don't blame the medium later when not even you know what "a strong female character" should be
As soon as I saw this I recommended TLOU to her immediately, because honestly I can't think of a better female character than Ellie out of all the games I've played. Not only is she "strong" in the badass sense of the word, but also a very well written and acted character that puts most of the female representation in gaming to shame.
Well, she didn't care about my recommendation and got him Tomb Raider instead.
Who's at fault now? Are you really trying to teach a lesson in feminism through fucking Tomb Raider?
Don't blame the medium later when not even you know what "a strong female character" should be
Arya was already long-gone once she started turning her revenge list into a bedtime ritual.
I'm also hoping she never runs into Sansa, because her logic might get twisted so much that she ends up blaming her for everything that happened (even though she was partly at fault, though not intentionally).
I'm also hoping she never runs into Sansa, because her logic might get twisted so much that she ends up blaming her for everything that happened (even though she was partly at fault, though not intentionally).
Autoignition
Member
If Druckmann wanted to reduce the amount of violence in Uncharted, he would make it more exploratory and puzzle-oriented as opposed to just filling it with long walking sections. The pacing of Uncharted 4 was all over the place and felt poorly directed in a lot of spots, and I don't think we can credit that to Druckmann wanting to appease Anita.
eot
Banned
Don't end an OP with this line. If there's something to discuss people will discuss it.
Good point.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Tomb Raider isn't a bad pick. How old was he?
Weltall Zero
Member
So her character flaw is that she believes too much in her friends?
That's kind of my issue with her, she's pretty much a Mary Sue, perfect basically in every way and with zero definition otherwise. Not that there's anything wrong with that, especially considering how nearly omnipresent the perfect male avatar is.
It's interesting if not at all unexpected that several of my favorite female characters fit pretty straight into the Enyo archetype, like MGS3's The Boss, Metroid's Samus or Female Shephard, with varying degrees of characterization. Of the ones that aren't either Enyo or a hybrid (Bayonetta is so obviously Enyo / Peitho), they are simply harder to categorize. River from To The Moon most closely resembles Hestia, but is perhaps another archetype altogether that I feel is also often (over)used: women as a mystery or puzzle (Despoina?).
I haven't played anything beyond BBS so that might be part of the issue too. And yeah, best female character is kind of a low bar in a series not exactly brimming with either women or deep characterization...
Personally, a female character who is well characterized but not able to participate in the main action of the plot is also not good. Especially if she's the only or only major female character.
So don't write a book filled with action and warring against an overwhelming threat with a female main character who needs to be shielded from it all.
So don't write a book filled with action and warring against an overwhelming threat with a female main character who needs to be shielded from it all.
Wait, do you really think a guy can get pretty much any girl he wants just by talking to her long enough?
I don't know what people found offensive about Luna, but she's a terrible character.
She is extremely uninteresting and has little characterization.
When (Spoilers for FFXV)
Luna dies I felt nothing. I only felt bad for Noctus.
Edit: also, good article OP.
OP, considering the name of the blog are you planning to all of the Final Fantasy games and how they tackle these issues?
I figure some can be bit of a mess to endure given the focus (while I haven't played through FF4 in full, the Cecil/Rosa/Kain thing doesn't sound like it would exactly shine with agency) there are some that manage to shine to some extent despite a simple story (Faris in FF5), and I guess it would be interesting to read a take on FF11's women, in part because nobody ever talks about XI, in part because one of the major stories, Wings of the Goddess, is about
- most people haven't played the game due to its online nature, but that story can be enjoyed here, as can others from XI in the same channel.
I figure some can be bit of a mess to endure given the focus (while I haven't played through FF4 in full, the Cecil/Rosa/Kain thing doesn't sound like it would exactly shine with agency) there are some that manage to shine to some extent despite a simple story (Faris in FF5), and I guess it would be interesting to read a take on FF11's women, in part because nobody ever talks about XI, in part because one of the major stories, Wings of the Goddess, is about
two diverging and competing realities, where much of the conflict is reflected on two alternate versions of the same woman who grew up under very different circumstances and necessarily clash, even if they manage to reach some sort of peace, mutual respect and reasonable compromise by the end
Wait, do you really think a girl can get pretty much any guy she wants just by talking to him long enough?
See how ridiculous that sounds?
As others have pointed out this isn't just a problem for females. Look at all the male characters who only exude machismo. As a beta male, characters like Marcus Fenix and Duke Nukem are unappealing because they are so one dimensional.
It's more-so a problem with the path of video games in general. For most games violence, guns, and killing are embedded at a fundamental level. Regardless of whether the character is man, woman, or anthropomorphic animal, they are normally placed in a power role.
One of the most empathetic characters from last year for me was a collection of wire and yarn with Yarny from Unravel. He was a character focused on emotional strength, through love and perseverance. Naughty Dog also seems to develop some pretty well rounded characters. Pretty much everyone in Uncharted, sans Chloe, seem multidimensional. Elena is a good example of a strong female character who is not out pillaging villages and slitting throats. Joel, Ellie, and the ancillary characters in The Last of Us are also great examples that even extend beyond the typical boundaries of race, sex, and sexual preference.
Until games and gamers quit relying so heavily on violence as a driving force behind games, "strong" characters will continue to be tropes.
It's more-so a problem with the path of video games in general. For most games violence, guns, and killing are embedded at a fundamental level. Regardless of whether the character is man, woman, or anthropomorphic animal, they are normally placed in a power role.
One of the most empathetic characters from last year for me was a collection of wire and yarn with Yarny from Unravel. He was a character focused on emotional strength, through love and perseverance. Naughty Dog also seems to develop some pretty well rounded characters. Pretty much everyone in Uncharted, sans Chloe, seem multidimensional. Elena is a good example of a strong female character who is not out pillaging villages and slitting throats. Joel, Ellie, and the ancillary characters in The Last of Us are also great examples that even extend beyond the typical boundaries of race, sex, and sexual preference.
Until games and gamers quit relying so heavily on violence as a driving force behind games, "strong" characters will continue to be tropes.
Weltall Zero
Member
As someone who routinely sees both meanings of the term used (often to hilarious results when both are used in the same conversation), I can tell you that this misunderstanding sparks more heated feminism / antifeminism discussions than you would believe. The solution seems to be to adopt explicit "well written character" terminology so that nobody can play dumb, but unfortunately the narrative that "all feminists want are strong female characters" is so ingrained that this switch is seen as moving the goalposts (!).
I frankly believe this "misunderstanding" is at least partially intentional and disingenuous on the part of reactionary / MRA / GamerGate types, to push the "we already have those" / "feminists are never satisfied" narrative. I mean, taking an estabilished term and interpreting it literally is one of the most textbook definitions of disingenuity I can think of.
Yeah, Lara is written more in the vein of stereotypical 'strong female character' that the OP is arguing against, but I don't believe her characterization is damaging. It's just not interesting. Fortunately there are other women in the cast, though that isn't to say they fair much better. Sam being the most egregious. At the very least, the game does have decent race representation, so there's that.
Autoignition
Member
Conversely, though, do you really think that a girl can get any guy she wants by talking to him long enough?
As a woman, let me tell you: this does not work as advertised. Not even when I was in high school and college, during the age of heightened sexual activity, was this true. And I tried really hard for some of those men.
Everyone on this planet is an individual with their own tastes and preferences in partners. Women experience rejection and heartache just as often as men do.
keraj37
Contacted PSN to add his card back to his account
I know about it, and that is why I wrote "still of course it is not perfect". This one fail of character design almost destroyed the concept. But if you abstract from that, it wasn't that bad after all.
Yes, that's obvious. I thought anyone who used the term "strong female character" knew that. I guess I was wrong?
Weltall Zero
Member
If a cameo is the best we can hope for "well written female character", things are kind of dire indeed...
Kairi is actually like super dope.