UnemployedVillain
Member
It's like I said in my last post, we keep using the word "strong" in different ways and it confuses the discussion
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"Strong" female characters: This is not the representation we're looking for
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
It's like I said in my last post, we keep using the word "strong" in different ways and it confuses the discussion
family_guy
Member
Wouldn't some of the quotes in the OP also apply to what people think a "strong" male is?
Yeah, this is the type of thing I was musing on when I brought it up. I guess Yennefer could count, Ciri isn't biological and she isn't a child, but Yennefer considers her a daughter and that is her motivation in the game.
This is a good opportunity to say how much I love Yennefer in general, I'm also of the opinion that characters don't need to be likeable. Yen certainly isn't likeable but I get all starry eyed when I think of her lol.
Thanks, thats interesting, I haven't got round to bound yet but I will check it out.
Can't wait for her to actually do something though...
She about as strong as Orihime or Sakura at this point.
Or hell Hinata for that matter.
Back-In-Black
Banned
Nah, I'm still holding out hope for my girl. Even she doesn't believe she hates The Hound anymore. That said,
Sansa is totally to blame for their father dying, but hey she was a stupid little girl.
You'd think.
Jaguar Victory
Member
Tropes are all over the place for both Male and Female characters. Both are equally cast typed. The biggest difference is that they're actually writing more female leads now so it's more noticeable.
Yes, that is far more realistic. Lets not pretend that the sexual dynamics between males and females are different. This goes beyond humanity. Females of a species have to be selective because sex and reproduction are a huge cost to it. For the male, sex and reproduction have no cost.
I mean, I don't know why this is such a shock to you. If a man and woman of similar attraction were making a race to have sex with as many strangers as possible of the opposite sex in a week, the woman would be finding somebody every day and the man wouldn't.
Weltall Zero
Member
Unless the girl with the nephew in question is the very same OP, I don't have a clue what this has to do with anything. The OP seems to have a pretty clear idea what a "strong (well written) female character" is, how do your friend's game-buying decisions invalidate that?
Not necessarily appeasing her as you say because he was already going in that direction anyways. I would say more like, he took to heart her critic and tried to do something interesting about it. Also hindsight is 20/20, finding puzzle loops that can replicate the premise of Uncharted both narratively and gameplay wise isn't as easy as you say. I remember people kept complaining about those puzzles from Uncharted 3 hence why you see they were changed again for 4. People don't seem to understand that the developers also struggle with creative ideas as we do. I remember the constant noise about removing the supernatural elements from Uncharted, they finally did and I don't it was worse for it
One thing I like about Ashe is that she is grieving for her husband, it seems rare to see a woman experience the loss of a man, its normally the other way around in games.
Weltall Zero
Member
"Archetypal damsel in distress" Kairi? There must be a game I'm missing where she does anything at all...
Solid OP. There's a general problem in gameplay design that combat is the primary activity in most games, so that skews characterization somewhat, but your point still stands.
Members of either sex can have near universal appeal, but intimacy has more significant consequences and risks for women, which is why we're naturally more wary of romantic approaches.
Members of either sex can have near universal appeal, but intimacy has more significant consequences and risks for women, which is why we're naturally more wary of romantic approaches.
Uh...
Are you even listening to yourself when you type this stuff out? You're acting as though every woman thinks of the IDEAL BABY MAKER whenever they approach a man. That's just not true. You can't apply that dumbass logic to every woman.
Men can have just as easy a time finding women to have sex with as women to men. Just like women can have just as easy of a time being REJECTED by men as men to women.
I'm not sure what happened to you or what you saw for your perspective to be this skewed, but you are definitely in the wrong here.
UnemployedVillain
Member
I think Luna is so terrible that
I didn't even feel bad for Noctis, what was he really upset about? I swear he didn't even know her, and to see him more emotional over her than his father gave me rage.
Autoignition
Member
As a writer myself, I understand the creative struggles all too well. I personally just don't think that the walking sections were an attempt to curb the violence in the Uncharted series, considering that the game itself was overall no more or less violent than any of the others. I was still breaking necks and leaving corpses out in the sun, I was still punching men to death, I was still excited to pick up a BFG that I could tear through tougher enemies with. There were still bombastic action scenes resulting in fiery deaths of no-name characters, and there were still many moments where the protagonists were held up at gunpoint.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Their whole relationship was terrible, which is bizarre because they literally did something similar with Tidus and Yuna, who didn't even know each other beforehand, yet somehow had a MUCH stronger and more understandable bond
I think the biggest issue is that we rarely see good and complex characters of any kind and marketing likes to sell many characters as if they are that. It's as OP mentioned: "Strong female character" became a brand to sell your product instead of actual good and interesting characters. That pretty much happens with most characters in the medium though.
Sometimes the type of game won't allow for too much time spent on developing them. For example, If your game has 6 hours your time for the characters is greatly reduced if compared to a RPG. I would say not every game needs them too, after all, sometimes the story and characters aren't the focus of a game.
Did you ever played Trails in the Sky SC ? Estelle grows a lot in that game and became a much better character IMO.
Sometimes the type of game won't allow for too much time spent on developing them. For example, If your game has 6 hours your time for the characters is greatly reduced if compared to a RPG. I would say not every game needs them too, after all, sometimes the story and characters aren't the focus of a game.
Did you ever played Trails in the Sky SC ? Estelle grows a lot in that game and became a much better character IMO.
I have! I really enjoyed the
beach scene with her and Joshua.
But overall, I liked her more in FC for some reason. I'm excited for The 3rd.
While I completely agree that their development fell short, they did have a few interactions when they were younger, bonding over a book or a legend or something. I can't even really remember what it was now and I only played the game two months ago.
But I think the idea was to convey they had some kind of childhood friendship. It totally missed the mark obviously, but maybe something they'll expand on later.
This annoyed a big defender of XV but Luna is a poor man's Yuna in my opinion. Except she has no personality, no development, no ambition beyond serving her wonderful king and no dialogue unrelated to that goal. Its amazing how irritated I still am about her lol.
Yeah I see the intention, but when I think of the messages they sent to each other it makes me laugh. Like we are supposed to believe they have maintained their close childhood bond through such shallow correspondence. Like most things in XV, its a good idea badly executed. This is why I shouldn't talk about this game, it winds me up.
Weltall Zero
Member
I had to reply to this Kurt Pitan character (I think this is the first time I've ever replied to a blog, that Musing Gamer handle brings back ancient memories...).
tiebreaker
Member
Other than Kat from Gravity Rush, best game character ever, I also like Max from Life is Strange.
After playing the game, I feel like I know her, she seems like a real person, not just a game character.
After playing the game, I feel like I know her, she seems like a real person, not just a game character.
Well, Bayonetta and Samus Aran (pre-Other M, of course) are often considered "strong female characters", and that basically boils down to them being badass and the former being sexy and proud of it, which speaks volumes about the misguided perception of what constitutes a "strong" character, making it look like it's more about the character being in control rather than being well-written to the point the audience can empathize with parts of their character and the dilemmas they face. I never thought about likening the protrayal of "strong" female characters to the blaxploitation phase in movies (which I'm not that knowledgeable about, though), but I've heard it didn't really help black character stereotypes in general, and the general public's perception of black characters in fiction, so it might actually be a pretty fair comparison to how games keep giving us female characters that are strong in the same misguided sense.
Terra, Edea, Yuna, Ashe, Agrias, Meliadoul, Garnet?
I suppose it is one of those cases where perfection cannot be attained, but it isn't bad to strive for it. Both TLOU and Uncharted 4 still had unreal number of kills but compared to some other games within the same genre, I mean compare TLOU to say Dead Rising for example in terms of body count.
With regards to strong or rather appealing characters, I would mention Yennefer from the Witcher 3. She wasn't overly sexualised, her appearance struck a balance which seem consistent within her sorceress gang, she was annoying but also very reasonable, impulsive and decisive, the kind of character that reminds you of a women you have met or dealt with at work or somewhere. At the same time, you can tell she was a genuine person who cared for Geralt and Ciri, she definitely was complex, power hungry go getter yet also still endearing.
She hasn't done much aside from staring wistfully at the horizon.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Just finished up xenoblade chronicles x and what really surprised me when i finished the game was how solid both the female leads were. Lin and Elma were both very no nonsense characters with a surprisingly rich background hidden away in their affinity missions.
Honestly the more I think about it XCX has so many female characters and none of them are really compromised by the typical bullshit. It's kinda funny actually but because you play a silent protagonist it effectively makes Elma the protagonist, she does all the cool shit that makes the plot move along has real character development, motivations, goals and she is basically the chosen one.
Oddly enough a lot of JRPGs have characters just like her. I think fans and out of game materials have given JRPGs a bad rep for this stuff.
Honestly the more I think about it XCX has so many female characters and none of them are really compromised by the typical bullshit. It's kinda funny actually but because you play a silent protagonist it effectively makes Elma the protagonist, she does all the cool shit that makes the plot move along has real character development, motivations, goals and she is basically the chosen one.
Oddly enough a lot of JRPGs have characters just like her. I think fans and out of game materials have given JRPGs a bad rep for this stuff.
The problem is that people indeed have taken the phrase "Strong [female] Character" literally when ideally when you talk about "Strong characters" they don't mean literally strong "badass" characters, but a round, full, complex, meaningful character, which is "strong" as opposed to "one dimensional".
So people make "badass, ass kicking literally strong women" characters that are still one dimensional.
So people make "badass, ass kicking literally strong women" characters that are still one dimensional.
psychowave
Member
But how can you be a good feminist when you're a woman? Only men get to be good at stuff.
Great article, though, seriously. The part about the good old "well she's weak but she has a strong character we promise!!" excuse particularly resonates with me.
She hold a key blade and killed a heartless, but that's about it.
Oh and wants to be strong to protect friends.
UnemployedVillain
Member
I'm not sure that poster has played an FF game before
It makes me sad that I said just this and no one seems to notice ;_;
But yeah, OP is talking about characterization and commenting on it being mistaken for strength
SixMachine
Member
I can understand why the general audience would be drawn to Lara than Ellie at a glance. I let my soon to be 5 year old niece fly around in Gravity Rush 2. I don't let her really do much more than that because using two analog sticks and literally flipping the perspective upside down is too much for her to really process and play properly. Her comments are usually, "Cool!", "She's pretty!", "she's a superhero!" and "Is she speaking spanish?". It seems really superficial, but I think the best way to go at it is design something that grabs their attention first, then let them dive in and start slowly comprehending what is in front of them. People want to be allured and entertained before "pretentiousness" so to speak. In that things might not be as important to them at a glance. Of course my niece is still far from being able to play the game, especially since
there is a boss that looks straight out of the movie Akira. It's nightmare fuel for people even my age.
Astral Dog
Member
I love how people think videogame writing in general follows any sort of literary standard.
It'd be nice to have well written female characters.
It'd also be nice to have well written male characters.
I'd be nice to have well written characters in general.
If you look at games as individual units rather than using a broad brush you'll see games with badly written women usually also have badly written men.
It'd be nice to have well written female characters.
It'd also be nice to have well written male characters.
I'd be nice to have well written characters in general.
If you look at games as individual units rather than using a broad brush you'll see games with badly written women usually also have badly written men.
Yeah, Yennefer is a great one. Fantastical world she lives in aside, she felt very real. She's well-rounded and developed, intelligent, sex-positive, and bunch of good stuff. I have a lot of love for Yen.
DarkArterialGore
Member
You mean American white dudes, and by everything you mean either an emotionless badass killing machine or a wisecracking Chandler Bing-esque dickhead character.
That's pretty true.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Still more than the average minority character.
Abinash117
Member
A strong female character seems more like an archetype now than just a characteristic or trait of a female character.
This a problem with a lot of characters not just female characters, that is why we get archetypes - it is much easier to write them that way. However, because of cultural bias, audience targeting, and social norms it can be much worse for female characters. The negativity of damsel - of - distress has caused a reaction that fixed that obvious, but not the underlining problem which is characters with no depth some of the time and created a situation were creators can held behind a 'strong female character', and have the female pretty much still become centered around the male mc. She can kickass on a good day, so don't feel saving her 90% percent of the time.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Strong generally refers to both imo because as long as games are centered around violence as a main mechanic how do you have a female lead at all? If they can't handle themselves around all the violence it's significantly more difficult to keep them in positions that can advance the story meaningfully. RPGs often have the group all be capable fighters or the characterization arcs take place awaybfrom fighting so it is easier. But it'll hard to take a game that comprises mostly of shooting shit, strip away the ability for characters to defend themselves and then properly characterize them as well.
The other thing is we rarely see characters reveal their fragility in ways apart from emotions for other characters and people. It's not rare to see a character in panic or emotion because of a situation with another character. But it is much rarer to see a character break down from self doubt, from perpetuating a cycle of violence, from fear of the unknown. Other human components and tendencies. I don't really care for "I'm strong willed and have lots of hero triats, or I'm a coward". I wanna see deeper thoughts and concerns that are personal to characters based on aspects of their life and the immediate world.
Great essay btw.
The other thing is we rarely see characters reveal their fragility in ways apart from emotions for other characters and people. It's not rare to see a character in panic or emotion because of a situation with another character. But it is much rarer to see a character break down from self doubt, from perpetuating a cycle of violence, from fear of the unknown. Other human components and tendencies. I don't really care for "I'm strong willed and have lots of hero triats, or I'm a coward". I wanna see deeper thoughts and concerns that are personal to characters based on aspects of their life and the immediate world.
Great essay btw.
ChosenPredator
Banned
Strong female characters are usually villains which I always like moreso then female hero lead characters
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Isn't it funny that the female character with the most character and personality are usually the villain?
And yet, a certain portion of GAF cant stop fellating Nathan Drake.
LordKasual
Banned
The tunnel vision hatred for Luna is so silly. Pretty much all the hatred around her has to do with people expecting some perfect heroine situation and being disappointed when she turned out to be something other than their preferred definition of what a "strong" "female character" is supposed to look like. She got little screentime in the game but she got more actual attention than literally every character that isn't one of the bros. And i guess Regis, who wasn't even seen in the actual game outside of CG cutscenes.
Her motivations and personality aren't much different from that of your typical FF heroine OR hero. The only real difference between Luna and a character like Yuna is that Luna isn't a party member. People love to argue otherwise, but couldn't tell me a single hobby of Yuna's that doesn't include being a summoner.
There was no way to generate a personal player connection to Luna outside of just including a massive amount of cutscenes, flashbacks or playable sections, because she isn't directly interacting with Noctis and she has no combat abilities. You were meant to feel a personal connection to her through Noctis' personal feelings. It could have been more fleshed out, but the end result would have ultimately felt the same IMO.
Prince of Space
Banned
More people need to play The Longest Journey. Three pages into a thread about great female leads, and not one mention of April Ryan?