I agree about the shots looking better. Adding more depth to the backgrounds was a good idea, in my opinion.
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Summer 2012 Anime |OT2| Of Suspended Anime Due To Olympics
- Thread starter dakkumauji
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I agree about the shots looking better. Adding more depth to the backgrounds was a good idea, in my opinion.
Erm, it's bad because it's pointless revisionism. It is damaging to art when you change things without a good reason and without preserving what was done before. By completely changing backgrounds in the home video releases, it means they are removing and invalidating the existence of the TV versions from commercial release. This is really no different from what Lucas does with Star Wars with each release, trying to replace stuff and revise the "definitive" vision. It's bullshit and should be condemned.
You cannot say something is objectively better when it is completely different. There is no longer an objective comparison when there are practically no similarities in the backgrounds. It's not even the same location with improved art and detail, it's a completely different design. There is no objectivity there.
Binbougami ga! 08:
Well, if Ichiko's not going to change that much over the course of the show, I suppose that some backstory on why she acts the way that she does is okay. Ranmaru remains tolerable as a side character because at least all of the screaming kind of fits her personality. In fact, just make the rest of the show about her. Momiji and Ichiko are played out.
Well, if Ichiko's not going to change that much over the course of the show, I suppose that some backstory on why she acts the way that she does is okay. Ranmaru remains tolerable as a side character because at least all of the screaming kind of fits her personality. In fact, just make the rest of the show about her. Momiji and Ichiko are played out.
I have no love for what Lucas did to Star Wars in general in the 90s, but I consider the militant purists of the original cut to be... not an example I would follow in any way.
Even ignoring that there's a big difference between making cosmetic changes to a work that was released 20 years ago and had since cemented itself into popular culture as opposed to changing a niche work that is barely half a year old.
In short, nobody cares.
I guess "nobody cares" is not a surprising mindset for the people who watch Shaft anime, so you're right.
I'm confused about what you're saying. Are you saying that you can't compare two things (I guess in this case, artwork) if they're different, or that you can't do so objectively?
The latter. There is nothing wrong with preferring one or the other (which, is essentially my point because there will be people who can make a valid point that the original backgrounds were better to them) but to say that one is objectively better than the other is nonsensical.
PdotMichael
Banned
I don't see the big problem if SHAFT thinks that they prefer different backgrounds for the final version. And it's not like they replace top-handdrawn backgrounds with shitty CG backgrounds (see Ghost in the Shell 2.0).
huh? The backgrounds are the best part of Bake- and Nisemonogatari and capture the style of Vofan's original illustrations for the novels in the best possible way.
huh? The backgrounds are the best part of Bake- and Nisemonogatari and capture the style of Vofan's original illustrations for the novels in the best possible way.
Chet Rippo
Member
I think the new backgrounds are better, if that means anything.
Well, I guess I can see where you're coming from. I personally believe the redesign does a better job of acting as a background than the TV broadcast cafe did, but I guess I can't say that it objectively does.
In this case, though, I think a pretty strong point can be made about the changed background being a good improvement. I'm pretty self-educated as far as art critique goes, but in my opinion, there are a lot of details in the redesigned cafe that make the cafe function better as a background. I personally like the increased depth, the improved movement, the color choices (like toning down a lot of the background saturation), and the more varied textures over the first design.
In this case, I think the BD design fulfills its purpose as a background better. It doesn't overpower the foreground like the original did at some points but adds better texture and movement to each still.
I don't really consider the Star Wars comparison to be applicable. The movie on its release was a completed product, and I personally hold no affinity to slavish dedication to the original release. I do not consider this revisionism pointless because the original Nise TV version looked sloppy and rushed. Now given the appropriate time we get something more accurate of the original intentions.
The doughnut shop scene always looked like a bizarre room cordoned off from the outside world to draw as little as possible. Why did it have an absence of lighting? Why is there needless repetition of the paintings recolored and repurposed as wallpaper? And it's not as though there is no relation between the two, they share similar assets between the chairs, tables, wall art, cushions, etc.
I don't know why you would condemn a company for trying to improve their product. Unless you really thought Nise could be improved in absolutely no way, but from the comparison shots it seems like they went a long way to add detail to the backgrounds and right the character proportions.
I agree with you I think those are improvements based on the original pictures, but I'm talking about Shaft's background design work as a collective. Even as a considerable Shaft fan, I can see that backgrounds are NOT what they're good at. They excel at stylistic choices and character design IMO. Leave the background stuff to Kyo-Ani and A-1.
Why is the Colosseum in Japan?
Why is Mister Donut in the middle of nowhere?
How does Araragi's modest home house a bathroom the size of the Sistine Chapel?
Because Shaft.
ftfy
PdotMichael
Banned
Binbougami ga! 8
Excellent episode. Ever since I started reading ahead in the manga a few weeks ago, this was the one I was really looking forward to. Not quite sure I agree with how they structure the flashback, but I guess it worked in the end.
Also, I wonder which character Piko (the OP singer) was the voice of this episode.
Also also,
Next week is adapting two of the one-off stories from chapters 5 and 19, then they'll probably finish things up with volume 4.
Excellent episode. Ever since I started reading ahead in the manga a few weeks ago, this was the one I was really looking forward to. Not quite sure I agree with how they structure the flashback, but I guess it worked in the end.
Also, I wonder which character Piko (the OP singer) was the voice of this episode.
Also also,
lololol fast forward Nadeshiko ga.
Next week is adapting two of the one-off stories from chapters 5 and 19, then they'll probably finish things up with volume 4.
You can "improve" things without completely changing art designs though. The fact that there is such a huge change means one of two things:
a) They didn't give a crap about the initial broadcast and put zero actual thought into the design of backgrounds, so when they decided to actually put some thought into it, they came up with completely different ideas.
b) After working on the broadcast versions, they changed their minds on what they felt would be the right direction to approach the design of the backgrounds, and completely redesigned them because they had a new and different idea after completing the original production.
Both these possibilities say very bad things about the production approach of the show. This is not about being slavish to an original release. It is about revisionism itself being bad. It should not be encouraged. Creators should think carefully about what they want to put out when they release something, instead of just doing whatever and then changing their minds later. Once you put something out there, it is out there, and should continue to be made available at the very least for archival purposes. Releasing something and then trying to erase it from existence because you changed your mind is a offense against art.
Thank you
I read your posts as well.
Good Friends Haha
Yeah, sometimes I can ignore the large busts but other times it's just weird. I don't remember Tori being that way in the first season but it has certainly become a bit of a running theme in the second. It was funny at first but not so much anymore.
I see, it seems Tomat is possibly going to watch it a bit now as well. Talking about Geneijin reminds me of others who don't show up in this thread as much as they used to, even just a year ago
It's actually pretty neat having Mandoric showing up more now.
The picture comparison, here, I actually like the Blu-ray art better but for the art, here, I like the broadcast version better, somewhat because of what you mention about the details like her fang.
What if it's about living up to a cultural expectation that your work WILL be revised, and providing massive differences as fanservice and ways to keep the matome blogs
There is nothing to respect or praise there though. In fact, there should actually be more criticism and outrage at that sort of negative social culture.
You get that we're talking about anime right? It's nice to want to do everything perfect under deadlines and all but sometimes the time simply isn't there. At least Shaft goes back to fix it up, which is more than could be said of sloppy shit that finds its way into almost all broadcast anime.
We're just going to have to disagree on this. Art is a medium of personal expression and communication, and as such the artist is the ultimate authority on how this personal construct is composed, and that includes the right to revise. Whether it's from some internal drive to improve or acquiescing to the wishes and/or pressures from your audience. And yes, I absolutely believe that George Lucas was 100% well within his right to do what he did to the original movies, as undesirable as those changes would be to us. I may not like it, but I'm not going to claim moral superiority over a work that I had absolutely no hand in creating.
There is nothing to respect or praise there though. In fact, there should actually be more criticism and outrage at that sort of negative social culture.
Now you're just transparently projecting.
The credits say "Man C". Is there a scene with three blokes in? Because he's probably the third one.
I think you're missing my point. It's not that they "improved" it, but that they completely changed it. That is the part I disagree with. Many of the Shaft changes are not changes that simply "improve" an existing scene or design. They are complete changes. Now, you can argue that you think that after changing it completely it looks better. But the question is why there has to be that drastic of a change. Do you see where I'm coming from? Shaft are the only ones who do this. Other studios might improve on animation, touch up a few poor drawn faces, add more detail to an existing background, etc.
But to completely change the background to the extend where it has no similarity at all with the original one begs the question of how the original one was designed to begin with. Obviously it was designed and then drawn by someone, and there were conscious decisions made in that design, the selection of colors, the layout, etc. By completely redoing it are they saying that all of that was worthless? That's the sort of thing that I dislike.
Nope, completely disagree with this entirely. There are many creators out there who would also totally disagree with this. There is no "ultimate authority" once you release something into public consumption. The art then speaks for itself, and any interpretation and appreciation/criticism for the work is just as valid as what the creator thinks. Your expression is only as valid as how it is understood.
Ah, in that case he was probably one of the delinquents that Ranmaru beats up. Thanks!
I don't see where you are coming from at all, because in almost all situations the art assets are being reappropriated, and as someone who does creative work personally I know that my feelings on what I've done in the past can change radically to the point where I will want to drastically overhaul it if not throw it away and forget it exists.
This isn't about Death of the Author, this is about maintaining the right to your own work and the right to change your work how you see fit. It's a ludicrous concept to me that changing your own work after it's been released is an "offense to art" as you put it. Offensive to who? The audience? What part of the audience? Offensive to some vague nebulous concept conjured up by random people? To other creators? Who cares what they think?
What does that have to do with the design of the backgrounds though?
They have the right to change whatever they want, and everyone else has the right to say that it is wrong of them to make such substantial changes, or to agree with them. There is nothing objective here at all.
Chet Rippo
Member
It was in response to what cajunator said earlier about editing out ahoges.
It shows the extent of the mistakes of the original. Art is not infallible. I do not understand your displeasure over changes that go out of their way to add detail to scenes that are clearly spartan because they were rushed to completion.
There is objectively more care, craft, and effort put into the BRD backgrounds and character art changes. I don't understand why this is contentious.
I see we have completely different viewpoints on this subject and there will be no agreement to be had on this. So there is no point in continuing this discussion since it is basically "I'm right, you're wrong!" and "No you!" at this point. Whatever. It's not worth fighting over a stupid Shaft anime anyway.
Sounds fine to me.
I wonder if Posed Look's infamous headtilt was modified in some fashion.
PdotMichael
Banned
Is still the same animation.
Lol. It wouldn't come from Madhouse anyway. Maruyama is the one who wants to produce it, so it would be a MAPPA production. He has talked about it quite a bit in the recent few months at different conventions. If he can get the funding, it would be a 8 part OVA with each part being an hour long and adapting a full manga volume.
Nise is pretty bad, so we can always agree about that I would guess. Not that I mean to keep arguing with you, but this comparison shot struck me as particularly funny and I just wanted to share it.
Dedication Through Light
Member
I remember coming across a chart that had a sequel to Legend of the Legendary Heroes on it (Incredible Legend of the Legendary Heroes from BONES for the Fall), as well as Blood Lad, and Biscuit Hammer anime...
Kind of dont like people who make these charts though
Think we can all accept this.
PdotMichael
Banned
not really
not on the same level as Bakemonogtari but still better than many other "good" animes this year.
Oh.
That's quite interesting.
Thanks for the information.
Been waiting for something Urasawa related for quite some time now.
The OVA model would be something I would like to see.
@Dedication Through Light
It seems it was the same chart.
Shame on me then :X
but what about the cg??!!?
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