Every time I read your biterness posts about Nisekoi and Macross Delta, it only fuels my inner-bully.
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Summer Anime 2016 |OT| Makes Me Happy When Skies Are Grey
- Thread starter BGBW
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Every time I read your biterness posts about Nisekoi and Macross Delta, it only fuels my inner-bully.
I thought you were referring to individual fights/conflicts rather than the overall story.
Heroes don't always win in the end, though that's probably not too common.
In the end it's the same thing isn't it? Think about it.
Premise where protagonist cannot afford to lose a fight = I know she will win, but how will she do it? I keep watching to find out.
Premise where protagonist can afford to lose a fight = Oh no, she lost this fight, but how will she win the overall tournament/war/relationship? I keep watching to find out.
In most general story arcs, the outcome is really transparent. Any sort of tension or possibility of failure is artificial and illusionary. The only real question is how things are kept interesting in the moment.
Captain Earth is not boring because they cannot lose. Captain Earth is boring because the actual situations and fights are boring.
Well I wouldnt say that, just extremely expected. The end was telegraphed from chapter one. That said it did feel rushed, which I guess is amusing given how long it went.
(I'm gonna humor this post with a legit response that will probably be poorly thought out or whatever. its 2AM here, deal with it)
Okay, if we're not talking about the standard Good Guy Always Wins idea, then lets dissect what you're implying here.
A premise where the protagonist cannot lose would probably refer to either an overpowered MC (like in mahouka, madoka box, or something of the sort) or a set of events perfectly tailored to his favor. Plot armour of the highest caliber, so to say. Or, if we change things slightly (genre distinction) then we would say something along the lines of all routes end in winning. Harem shows, Slice of life's, etc tend to fall under here, unless we get weird
The later would refer to the protagonist potentially losing, but an end result either not mattering to the protagonist, or a set of events such that the protagonist ends up winning, though in a way where he at least feels like he loses. Or, if we take "not mattering" further, that the world itself is unchanged or unfettered by the losing of the protagonist.
While there are plenty of premises that fit the former and not the latter (again, mahouka and madoka box with this to a T (ie: either actually losing would have strong effects on the world around them, however due to plot contrivances, they literally can not lose)), the idea of a "no win" scenario (or plot twist) for the protagonist would be the only way to have the latter and not the former. Either they were stung along or whatever action they took lead them to doom. Whether they beat the villain, or "save the world" it doesn't matter, something beyond their control has happened and made them lose. This is especially true if its hinted at in the beginning of the story.
Basically one offers a status quo that is highly scaled to the protagonist, the latter ends without an alteration to the status quo.
Heroes not being allowed to lose is actually my big problem with Danganronpa 3 right now. Having the cast have four returning characters just means that a big chunk of them are pretty much safe. In the games with original casts you only knew that the MC was safe since you were playing as him, but he was safe because you were beating the levels of the game. In the anime however it just kind of sucks all the tension from about half the scenes since they obviously don't want to hurt the returning cast. It's kind of why I liked the last episode: anyone of those three could have died at any point.
Interestingly the Despair stuff has the opposite problem, in that since we know everybody loses its hard to get invested. Like we knew lil' sis had to die so there was no real impact when she did.
Interestingly the Despair stuff has the opposite problem, in that since we know everybody loses its hard to get invested. Like we knew lil' sis had to die so there was no real impact when she did.
(Granted i'm not watching the DR3 anime)
Technically thats not true at all, and really just you projecting expectations. There are a lot of tropes, plot devices, etc that can be used to kill off returning characters (even returning main characters)
I agree with that, but my train of thought was if the protagonist can't lose then it comes down to how they do it, while the other scenario will have you thinking about that and what you mentioned.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Hajime no Ippo 10
Of course, it wasn't a name we've heard before, but at least the show was self-aware about the silliness of the cliffhanger.
Oda is very much a beginner-level opponent, lazy and unaccomplished, but thankfully they gave him a strong motivation to win his match against Ippo so he shouldn't be a complete pushover.
I don't really see DR3 Future arc under the same lens as the games to be honest. It is similar to them but only to an extent, the end goals for the "game" are quite different. If it weren't I don't get why they just didn't make a Danganronpa 3 video game.
There is a sense of tension on who will die but it is not as stark as the games which is something I'm fine with because the focus is now on who the killer/despair agent is than who will die next.
Secondly, I don't see why I should overrule the possibility that the old cast would come back and play a role again.
There is a sense of tension on who will die but it is not as stark as the games which is something I'm fine with because the focus is now on who the killer/despair agent is than who will die next.
Secondly, I don't see why I should overrule the possibility that the old cast would come back and play a role again.
Trust me, everything they've done so far is pointing to them being safe until maybe the end. Can't really explain why without spoils though.
That said, if they just shoot Kirigiri in the head next week or something then I'll be super wrong.
I agree, but I think there's a bit of a difference between those two scenarios nevertheless.
If a protagonist can't afford to lose a fight, I want to know how they'll do it.
If a protagonist is allowed to lose a fight, I know they will win the overall conflict regardless and I want to know how they'll do it. But this scenario brings a certain insecurity and uncertainty to each single fight. I can never be 100% sure how things will turn out, even though I know it will turn out well in the end and that gives a bit of default tension and excitement.
Thinking about it, this is probably something I like about Re:Zero a lot.
I know that every loop will turn out alright in the end, but due to the nature of the resets there's nothing that can't happen in individual runs, and that makes it exciting to watch things unfold.
SliceSabre
Banned
I find the latter more interesting because I like seeing the journey the hero goes through to learn from their defeat and come back to defeat their foe. It also adds tension to every fight because I know the protagonist could actually lose this and sometimes they lose multiple times to the same opponent. Whereras the former requires that the protagonist is ALWAYS going to pull something out of their ass no matter how hard they are getting stomped to stop the loss in the first place which leaves me feeling cold.
I don't have a problem knowing the protagonist will win the overall conflict since this occurs in the overwhelming vast majority of media. But do note I am a person who also loves to see a protagonist fail.
Lalalandia
Member
I actually laughed with the plot in the GuP Movie because I liked the idea that the ridiculous premise of the tv series was being undermined, 'What? No we just want to close your school, who cares that you won? Got that in writing?'.
I was more disappointed that the scenes with her mother and sister were so slight, the movie feinted as if they were going to deliver some sort of growth but in the end ducked it with an ambiguous intervention by her sister (
).
That the school was always going to win was never in doubt for me at any point because it's a big sports movie and those almost always result in a win. The only time they don't is when there is a moral equivalent to a win on the table (e.g. forming better bonds within the team, reconciliation with parents/siblings/etc) and the stakes are lower overall.
I was more disappointed that the scenes with her mother and sister were so slight, the movie feinted as if they were going to deliver some sort of growth but in the end ducked it with an ambiguous intervention by her sister (
could be read as either her mother backing her by proxy or her sister going around her mother
That the school was always going to win was never in doubt for me at any point because it's a big sports movie and those almost always result in a win. The only time they don't is when there is a moral equivalent to a win on the table (e.g. forming better bonds within the team, reconciliation with parents/siblings/etc) and the stakes are lower overall.
SliceSabre
Banned
And to the earlier discussion about best OP this season:
Re: zero: Love the song itself and how well it fit in with the plot of the show at episode 14. Give you a taste of every character, with a particular focus on Subaru and Emillia's relationship, and then does the rewind near the end.
New Game!: Cute and catchy and seeing the girls in the visual singing at parts is icing on the cake.
That's it. All the other OPs this season are so bland I find myself skipping them.
Re: zero: Love the song itself and how well it fit in with the plot of the show at episode 14. Give you a taste of every character, with a particular focus on Subaru and Emillia's relationship, and then does the rewind near the end.
New Game!: Cute and catchy and seeing the girls in the visual singing at parts is icing on the cake.
That's it. All the other OPs this season are so bland I find myself skipping them.
GoldCrusader
Member
Gundam ZZ up to 12
We are adding Chara to terrible character and oh god is she sooooo annoying.
Mashymre still terrible.
Everyone does whatever they want.
Beecha is a very very annoying guy. How can they so obviously ignore a traitor.
The ZZ is pretty cool and got that famous super long let the enemy watch me transform.
Glemy is redeeming the Endra at least.
The zeta zaku is cool lol.
I'll had that it's still very pretty and that I really like the music.
We are adding Chara to terrible character and oh god is she sooooo annoying.
Mashymre still terrible.
Everyone does whatever they want.
Beecha is a very very annoying guy. How can they so obviously ignore a traitor.
The ZZ is pretty cool and got that famous super long let the enemy watch me transform.
Glemy is redeeming the Endra at least.
The zeta zaku is cool lol.
I'll had that it's still very pretty and that I really like the music.
Dedication Through Light
Member
Bad and illogical like all other non bl romances. Last time I give one a try just because the lead character is really hot.
Lalalandia
Member
Is there a notable difference between the likelihood of fan favourite 'ships working out in BL stuff versus non-BL romance shows?
Turin Turambar
Member
That last part is funnier than the first part (bl vs non-bl). The lead character looks (and is supposed to be) a totally average joe, not particularly tall or handsome or smart, just normal.
Cornbread78
Member
Soma Second Dish ep.6
Can we just end the series on this episode? Excellent, stuff until the end. I was legit pumped when they started playing the first season's theme music as he presented his dish to the judges, fit perfectly for the moment and was great. BTW, I still really hate Miss Tsundere, but I had a good laugh at the ending, especially, when she was still asking for the rest of the manga novels. Oh and the Yukiharaland images were great; poor Gin senpai all dressed up with his ears on, lol... sooo good!
Can we just end the series on this episode? Excellent, stuff until the end. I was legit pumped when they started playing the first season's theme music as he presented his dish to the judges, fit perfectly for the moment and was great. BTW, I still really hate Miss Tsundere, but I had a good laugh at the ending, especially, when she was still asking for the rest of the manga novels. Oh and the Yukiharaland images were great; poor Gin senpai all dressed up with his ears on, lol... sooo good!
GoldCrusader
Member
http://www.rightstufanime.com/Big-W...ource=BW21&utm_medium=Post&utm_campaign=FB_NZ
Right stuf just announced the release for Big windup S2 and it's the cheap one....heh.
DVD and sub only. I'm very bummed. Will still buy for sure since Big windup is one of my favourite series of all time but very bummed.
I was not a expecting a dub but on blu-ray would have been nice.
Right stuf just announced the release for Big windup S2 and it's the cheap one....heh.
DVD and sub only. I'm very bummed. Will still buy for sure since Big windup is one of my favourite series of all time but very bummed.
I was not a expecting a dub but on blu-ray would have been nice.
As far as good ops go I really love Mob Psycho 100, which is pretty interesting because I was pretty apathetic to it when I first watched it but now I enjoy every second of it (especially the opening segment) and how well the song links up with the OP.
I also enjoyed JoJo's current opening even if it's not very JoJo esque and seems more suited for a final season arc (I'm just a fan of the song in general too and the acoustic version is pretty nice too)
It seems that
always win.
I also enjoyed JoJo's current opening even if it's not very JoJo esque and seems more suited for a final season arc (I'm just a fan of the song in general too and the acoustic version is pretty nice too)
It seems that
blondes
Not sure who is worse: her, or her loser assistant.
Theonik
Member
Wow, don't talk shit about Hisako.
zswordsman
Member
GoT End
I wonder how this would be in anime. It'd probably do well since there's even a loli in it.
Cool season, glad I watched it now time to see more anime. Maybe finish daredevil
I wonder how this would be in anime. It'd probably do well since there's even a loli in it.
Cool season, glad I watched it now time to see more anime. Maybe finish daredevil
The thing with making the MC fail is that, if used right, it can make the moment when they win that much more cathartic. Think Higurashi, where the main cast kept getting killed by each other in horrible ways, but over time a character that remembers each loop finds the strength to rely on the rest and they all end up overcoming the tragic destiny that had doomed them all in so many other timelines. All those failures and excruciating pain and despair they experienced helped the audience bond with them and care about the predicament they were in, and look forward to the day they managed to end the cycle of tragedy once and for all.
Then there's always tragedies such as Cowboy Bebop, where you know the main characters will fall prey to their own shortcomings and see the world crumble around them, and it's just a matter of when that will happen. Tragedies are indeed less common than all the other types of narratives where good triumphs in the end, probably because we humans enjoy feeling good a lot more than reflecting about definitive defeat and other negative emotions.
Even then, while a show can have a "good" ending, it can work out like FMA:B, where the main duo beats the evil guy and saves the world, but it comes at a cost that isn't simply brushed off, and is rather used as a culmination of the character arcs of several people in the show's large cast, or Gundam IBO, where they reached their destination, but still had a long journey ahead of them. Those kinds of good endings are less "feel-good", but ultimately feel better to me since I'm already tired of "then they gathered the dragon balls and revived everyone" endings I watched all the time as a kid, which is actually funny now that I think about it since kids are perfectly fine with seeing the Power Rangers or whatever win every single time, often using the same exact plot devices every single time, but I guess once we grow up our mind gets more used to pattern recognition, and begins getting tired of being fed the same old "strong bad guy arrives, beats the heroes, the heroes train and then beat him for good" formula.
...And even then, there're shows such as JoJo, which I can still watch without an issue despite knowing that the main JoJo and his friends are safe from harm (unless it's for the sake of a heroic sacrifice or they're named Avdol), mostly since the "how" is the fun part thanks to the concept of stands and how they can all each do increasingly bizarre and specific things that put the main characters in a pinch. Still, I've got to say I'm enjoying Part 4 a lot more than Part 3 since the slice of life style appears to fit the stand of the week formula better than having each of them be a life-or-death confrontation that's only meant to lead up to the showdown between the MC and the arc's big bad.
Sorry for the long rant that is probably badly structured, but I just kept typing as thoughts came to me without reading things over once I was done. Hopefully this can contribute to the discussion in some way rather than being yet anither wall of text.
Bad bear!
Basileus777
Member
The problem with the GuP film is less that the result is obvious and more that it puts zero effort into establishing its main conflict. It's a sports film that handwaives away the reason for struggle and doesn't even give its protagonist much of an arc.
Cornbread78
Member
Ok damn, I just watched the third ep. of Moribito as part of the Let's Watch and I'll be damned if that isn't an awesome friggen' episode from start to finish, holy crap!
names2hard4you
Member
The fact alone that it's had one of the best directed and choreographed scenes that I've ever seen on television made one of the second last episode something that I won't see being topped in a long while. Miguel Sapochnik is a directing god. Just knowing that he's going to direct the first episode of the adaptation of one my favourite books ever, Altered Carbon, is making me super excited.
GoldCrusader
Member
Really liking their cover for the second season dvd! It had so many good characters
I also always wondered why they did not make any more season of big windup...I was really sure it was super popular in Japan.
I also always wondered why they did not make any more season of big windup...I was really sure it was super popular in Japan.
Since it got casually mentioned previously, and with the announcement of the new OVA being discussed on /a/, I had just learned that in the Tenchi Muyo series, Tenchi does in fact marry every single one of the ladies and fathers all of their children.
What.
The.
Fuck.
Is this from the original novel or something? What is the reasoning for this, and how in the shit did he manage to convince all of the girls to agree to this?
This makes me ridiculously angry. Ryoko was one of my favorite anime heroines, as she had that super-rare balance of being sexually promiscuous but also full of pride. There is no scenario where she would ever share Tenchi with anyone.
I recall in a DYKA video that there was a falling out between the two writers, as one writer wanted to prioritize making the ladies independent and strong-willed while the other wanted them to be submissive and harem-focused.
So I guess the latter guy won? This is a worse ending than Evangelion.
What.
The.
Fuck.
Is this from the original novel or something? What is the reasoning for this, and how in the shit did he manage to convince all of the girls to agree to this?
This makes me ridiculously angry. Ryoko was one of my favorite anime heroines, as she had that super-rare balance of being sexually promiscuous but also full of pride. There is no scenario where she would ever share Tenchi with anyone.
I recall in a DYKA video that there was a falling out between the two writers, as one writer wanted to prioritize making the ladies independent and strong-willed while the other wanted them to be submissive and harem-focused.
So I guess the latter guy won? This is a worse ending than Evangelion.
PshycoNinja
Member
Ugh. So it ended in the worst way possible...
Turin Turambar
Member
I was always fascinated to the America's fans interest and notalgia in Tenchi Muyo. It seems that series was published there just in the starting zeitgeist of anime in USA. Here in Europe that didn't happened, so basically we don't care at all for Tenchi Muyo, it's just another minor 90s series.
Oh thank god the whale showed. I was super worried that it wasn't going to and we were gonna get another 'Subaru is the worst' moment.
This show has kind of gone back to being generic again, but it's great that despite that it's still entertaining. That last scene was super great too, really got the tension of the situation across.
The series was always a bit sleazy I thought? I mean isn't two of the girls his great aunt? And didn't one of them want to marry his grandfather who is her biological brother?
I can't really remember much of the show and I'll admit I do have some nostalgia for it but it always seemed to be a bit trashy so this ending doesn't really surprise me.
Water is wet.
Dedication Through Light
Member
Since it is a monthly manga did they catch up to the manga when this was airing back then?
Tenchi Muyo is an anime original property believe it or not and that solution has been in the background ever since the second OVA series as Jurian royalty often take multiple brides to sickening effect, looking at you GXP.
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