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[MetroidPrimeRib]

(Please note that as often occurs on the internet the author of the original piece immediately attracted a harassment campaign against her for this relatively light analysis on moe's bullshit. Don't do that and fight against it if you see it, please.)

So I don't think the article itself is spectacularly new to anyone in here, since being honest, I think people in here (especially those of you who have greater knowledge of what girls/women actually experience in day-to-day-life, either through living arrangements or actually being a woman) probably already know most of the points this brings up. TLDR: Moe is infantalising of its characters and non-threatening for the most part. But some of the twitter chatter is interesting:

Pretty sad you can't even present such a light article without being blasted by pathetic manchildren. Although I'm sure if you posted this on Off-Topic the level of discourse would be about as engaging.

I find moe is next to impossible to talk about in any sort of critical discourse sense because the word doesn't really mean anything.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Critical Discourse time

(Please note that as often occurs on the internet the author of the original piece immediately attracted a harassment campaign against her for this relatively light analysis on moe's bullshit. Don't do that and fight against it if you see it, please.)

So I don't think the article itself is spectacularly new to anyone in here, since being honest, I think people in here (especially those of you who have greater knowledge of what girls/women actually experience in day-to-day-life, either through living arrangements or actually being a woman) probably already know most of the points this brings up. TLDR: Moe is infantalising of its characters and non-threatening for the most part. But some of the twitter chatter is interesting:

I'm not 100% convinced by that article, mostly because the term "moe" is used so broadly that it can cover a multitude of things from superb to harmless to eyeroll worthy, and what is opposed to "moe" in many people's critiques is a concept of "manime" with heavy reliance on violence, sometimes of the sexual variety. I would probably have liked it better if the author had given some specific examples of what anime she finds distasteful (besides the images implying that Love Live Sunshine, Sweetness and Lightning, and New Game are among those she finds bad) and what, if any, anime she finds laudable.

Of course, I say this without wishing in any way to endorse the appalling personal attacks you mention, whose perpetrators should be kicked off the Internet.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Alderamin - 10

Exactly what this show needed, a strong antagonist to counter the protagonist. Ikta is quite the thinker and strategist, a gary stu by our standards. Nothing really so far has quite measured up to his plans, even if there were 1 or 2 setbacks. For the first time we see an opposing strategist that could be on an even field with him on the coming battles.

I don't think he's so much of a Gary Stu. I mean he's a tactical genius, but he isn't the best in combat, isn't necessarily attracting honeys left and right, and is extremely lazy. Gary Stu is more of an onii-sama

 

[Narag]

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Diamond is Unbreakable 24

God damn, what a great ep. The show started so well that I expected a decline at some point but it just keeps getting better.

 

[Jintor]

(besides the images implying that Love Live Sunshine, Sweetness and Lightning, and New Game are among those she finds bad) and what, if any, anime she finds laudable.

Of course, I say this without wishing in any way to endorse the appalling personal attacks you mention, whose perpetrators should be kicked off the Internet.

I don't think the screenshots were used very well for the author's thesis, especially since on her twitter she mentions she finds Sweetness and Lightning to use moe well because it's actually depicting an actual child. New Game I think is actually probably a really good example of what she's talking about (despite how much I enjoy it) since it is probably the easiest "Even if they're not actually in high school they kinda act like every other prototypical after-school club girls anime" thing that I jump to.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

I don't think the screenshots were used very well for the author's thesis, especially since on her twitter she mentions she finds Sweetness and Lightning to use moe well because it's actually depicting an actual child. New Game I think is actually probably a really good example of what she's talking about (despite how much I enjoy it) since it is probably the easiest "Even if they're not actually in high school they kinda act like every other prototypical after-school club girls anime" thing that I jump to.

Ah, I see. I thought she might have an issue with Sweetness and Lightning due to the teenage student's crush on her teacher.

Shows such as New Game or Is the order a rabbit?, which blatantly sexualize the young-looking female characters, are shows that creep me out so I can understand her feelings there. The most egregious example of infantilization I've seen in anime, though, is from a show likely few people would think of as "moe": Honey and Clover, in which the female lead looks and acts like an especially immature 8-year old child instead of the 18-year old college freshman she actually is. And that's a josei manga!

 

[SliceSabre]

Critical Discourse time





(Please note that as often occurs on the internet the author of the original piece immediately attracted a harassment campaign against her for this relatively light analysis on moe's bullshit. Don't do that and fight against it if you see it, please.)

So I don't think the article itself is spectacularly new to anyone in here, since being honest, I think people in here (especially those of you who have greater knowledge of what girls/women actually experience in day-to-day-life, either through living arrangements or actually being a woman) probably already know most of the points this brings up. TLDR: Moe is infantalising of its characters and non-threatening for the most part. But some of the twitter chatter is interesting:



This old-ass interview with former Gainax President Toshio Okada, Professor Kaichiro Morikawa and the artist Takashi Murakami is also interesting:

As is this translation of Gundam creator Tomino's thoughts on male/female Gundam fans from 1998 (original JPN interview here)

I'm not exactly sure what the end game is for this article. Moe covers a lot of different things and one person's moe is not always another person's moe. i.e. Akane from Psycho-Pass is considered moe as fuck to some people. I think the other issue is that if some shows weren't just entirely about moe nobody would fucking watch them because characters being moe is what its all about. Like if you got rid of the cutesy moe elements of K-On! that show certainly would have never been as popular as it was. Moe isn't always sexual either which tosses another stone into the mix. i.e. Flying Witch and Sansha Sanyou

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

Kaiji is very moe.

 

[names2hard4you]

91 Days - 09

Visuals took a dip in places today. It was pretty noticeable, since it hadn't really happened up to now.

I'm still left wondering if episode/day count is supposed to matter. Day 9 is a long way from day 91. Are getting a time skip? Or are these "days" just there as nothing but a fancy way of counting the episodes?

I don't think he's so much of a Gary Stu. I mean he's a tactical genius, but he isn't the best in combat, isn't necessarily attracting honeys left and right, and is extremely lazy. Gary Stu is more of an onii-sama

Don't get me wrong I love the show. Sure but he is also this kind of character that knows everything about everything at the right moment. He is the smartest character in whichever room he goes into. He may not be a Gary Stu in strength, but he knows a little bit too much sometimes. It was good that they brought in a character similar to him for the opposite side.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Kaiji is very moe.

But I heard it was the anti-moe anime.

 

[nintendoman58]

Majin Bone is pretty moe.

 

[speedlolita]

Kaiji is very moe.

Heh, I just polished off episode 20. Have been watching it the past 2 weeks or so. Of course, it is hard not to compare it to Akagi but I'm not entirely sure I'm enjoying it as much as Akagi despite the consensus being that it is the more enjoyable show. Still, I'm enjoying it and look forward to finishing off the rest of season 1 before jumping into season 2.

As I had a week off of work I decided to start watching Re:Zero too. I've made it to the most recent episode and sort of wished I had waited given the momentum I had going. Still, while not immediately being a fan of the "Return by Death" mechanism I guess it (seemingly) has played to Subaru's advantage in the end... Or thus far at least. And Rem is freaking adorable. God damn.

 

[Wanderer5]

Need Psycho-Pass, Crunchyroll! So much for being able to watch it starting yesterday.:x

Bleh it will come when it comes.

 

[Jintor]

I don't necessarily think the article is about the sexuality in relation to moe. The theme seems to be more tied into the inherent misogyny (however mild) of the perfect non-threatening, often younger female who is 'pure' which is the focus of moe.

Oh god I haven't written moe so often since like 2011 I bet

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Don't get me wrong I love the show. Sure but he is also this kind of character that knows everything about everything at the right moment. He is the smartest character in whichever room he goes into. He may not be a Gary Stu in strength, but he knows a little bit too much sometimes. It was good that they brought in a character similar to him for the opposite side.

But being the smartest, or the best at a particular thing, doesn't necessarily make you a gary stu. We've seen him fail and make decisions that aren't inherent to a gary stu.

Is Gandalf a Gary Stu once he comes back? Is Mob a Gary Stu? Is Merlin? Is Shiroe from Log Horizon who was automatically the smartest guy in the room wherever he went?

He's not even something that is reminiscent of a self-insert character or in a situation where he's better than everyone else at everything. The show has made it explicitly clear they're telling the story of this universe's greatest tactical genius and his rise to power.

 

[Hellwarden]

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Diamond is Unbreakable 24

Goddamn, what an episode. Kira is an amazing villain.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

But I heard it was the anti-moe anime.

Yeah well they designed Akane in Psycho-Pass to not be moe and she's moe as fuck. You can't escape.



On a more serious note the best "moe" character comes from the excessively problematic™ Monogatari series because the HanaKana voiced Sengoku Nadeko has the best character arc. She's boring and plain compared to the rest of the cast and is subject to a lot of the leering nature, even moreso then the other girls (Twister?)

But then she flips her shit and she suddenly becomes amazing in minutes.

 

[Cornbread78]

91 Days ep.9
Oh shit,

Spoiler

it was the uncle

! I wasn't expecting that one after they introduced the Don's sidekick.. good job muddying the waters there!

 

[Jarmel]

Kana Hana da gawd

 

[Hellwarden]

So what do you guys think the chances are the Tiger Mask W anime will be good?

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

So what do you guys think the chances are the Tiger Mask W anime will be good?

Is it possible to have Lucha and be bad?

 

[kewlmyc]

91 Days - 09

Visuals took a dip in places today. It was pretty noticeable, since it hadn't really happened up to now.

I'm still left wondering if episode/day count is supposed to matter. Day 9 is a long way from day 91. Are getting a time skip? Or are these "days" just there as nothing but a fancy way of counting the episodes?

13 weeks (one cour) is 91 days when you do the math. The "days" in the episode titles are just fancy ways of counting the episodes.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

So what do you guys think the chances are the Tiger Mask W anime will be good?

Hard to say. Junichi Hayama as action animation director is the most promising aspect of the show.

 

[names2hard4you]

The show has made it explicitly clear they're telling the story of this universe's greatest tactical genius and his rise to power.

For argument's sake, one could say that Kirito was the greatest beta tester and gamer there was, and that that was why he was winning in SAO. He too lost friends and failed.

Onii-sama was a genius too in that universe, and his powers were so great because of expensive experimentation from a young age in order to meet the standards of the Yotsuba family which on its own wouldn't be enough: it was also his brawn, and manipulation of the magic calculation model.

I guess Harry Potter is a Gary Stu also? LOL we could honestly go on and on.

This is why I don't even like that title that much.

13 weeks is 91 days.

It is, but the episodes are titled as "days" instead!

 

[Admiral Woofington]

For argument's sake, one could say that Kirito was the greatest beta tester and gamer there was, and that that was why he was winning in SAO. He too lost friends and failed.

Onii-sama was a genius too in that universe, and his powers were so great because of expensive experimentation from a young age in order to meet the standards of the Yotsuba family which on its own wouldn't be enough: it was also his brawn, and manipulation of the magic calculation model.

I guess Harry Potter is a Gary Stu also? LOL we could honestly go on and on.

This is why I don't even like that title that much.



It is, but the episodes are titled as "days" instead!

But Kirito has EVERY other issue about being a Gary Stu at hand though, you're going to a horrible example.

Onii-sama is another horrible example. Both are clearly self-insert male power fantasy characters who are also drowning in pussy and come from LNs. Both are too good at everything they do. Onii-sama in particular has the very stupid background of having a dark childhood and all of a sudden he is basically God and Jesus meets Adonis.

You can't really go on and on with those examples. Harry Potter isn't a Gary Stu. He isn't a self insert character. He isn't the world's most powerful wizard, he's slightly above average at best. He isn't intelligent. Not everyone wants to be him, not everyone likes him. All of the events center around him in the books because he has a direct link to the world's biggest bad and all of the plans from the bad guys counted as much. He's famous for something not even remotely gary-stu

 

[Aki-at]

Initial Occult D - 3

She's a damn fine driver, get her in Crazy Taxi on the double.

This show is a lot funnier than I was expecting it to be, colour me impressed.

 

[SliceSabre]

Praise Snake, praise Hana Kana.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Witchcraft Works 10-12 END

These last episodes tone down the comedy considerably in exchange for a more serious climactic arc. This is unfortunate, since it doesn't play to the series' strengths. As I said when I began watching the show, this sort of anime works better when plot is absent. Earlier episodes were good about minimizing the presence of plot, but these episodes felt it was necessary to start making extended explanations of the magic systems of the fictional world. You could tell Mizushima's heart wasn't in all this seriousness either, as he kept making jarring cuts or compressing certain scenes to ludicrous extents. Still, there were some fun moments in these episodes, particularly the friendship the bear and rabbit minions strike up with each other. There were some interesting visual ideas as well, such as the visualization of the magical realms, even if they were inconsistently executed.

Of course, the show as a whole was well worth watching. Episode 8 alone justifies the watch, as that is a 10/10 comedy masterpiece.

 

[Jintor]

i would watch a crazy taxi anime

 

[Clov]

I don't necessarily think the article is about the sexuality in relation to moe. The theme seems to be more tied into the inherent misogyny (however mild) of the perfect non-threatening, often younger female who is 'pure' which is the focus of moe.

Oh god I haven't written moe so often since like 2011 I bet

I'd say it's definitely at the core of the style, unfortunately. Even characters who may not have those "must protect!" personality traits end up defanged by art style itself. As much as I love cute shows, I can understand the point they're making.

On a side note, while I'm absolutely the last person to say "what about men" when it comes to these sort of media issues, I'd love to see another article examine moe traits in male anime characters (think Free, Boei-bu).

 

[SliceSabre]

Not to mention Witchcraft Work's ED is great in showing off all the medieval methods of executing witches in the cutest way possible with a super catchy song. The background of the ED also changes a bit every episode which is something I love.

 

[BombStrike]

Amanchu! 10

Saru Anego looks better with her hair down.
It was a swimsuit episode but wasn't that fanservicey, also Teko's proportions look kinda weird or maybe it's the swimsuit doing that.
Not enough Cha but looks like it will be addressed in next episode.

 

[Rebel Leader]

91 Days 9

Well,

Spoiler

we now know Ganzo sent the letter but do we know if he's actually the fourth man? I still think there could be some twists there.

Spoiler

I figured that out when the guy escape and only got a scratch

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Not to mention Witchcraft Work's ED is great in showing off all the medieval methods of executing witches in the cutest way possible with a super catchy song. The background of the ED also changes a bit every episode which is something I love.

Yeah, that ED is killer (pun intended?). I also enjoyed how it gradually adds more and more characters to its middle segment as they are introduced in the show.

 

[Hellwarden]

Is it possible to have Lucha and be bad?

Hard to say. Junichi Hayama as action animation director is the most promising aspect of the show.

Well that's a good start.

 

[blurr]

lol completely forgot about that show

 

[Geist-]

Alderamin - 10

Exactly what this show needed, a strong antagonist to counter the protagonist. Ikta is quite the thinker and strategist, a gary stu by our standards. Nothing really so far has quite measured up to his plans, even if there were 1 or 2 setbacks. For the first time we see an opposing strategist that could be on an even field with him on the coming battles.

I really hope that he lives up to the hype and isn't just the first of many prodigies with funny nicknames that our Protag will defeat.

 

[Cornbread78]

Fairy Tail ep.52

Oh, this is gonna be a fun adventure with the guilds joining forces. That little girl was on the train with them in a previous arc and I knew she would pop up again.. but as a wizard? Lets see this joint operation in action.

 

[pelicansurf]

I really hope that he lives up to the hype and isn't just the first of many prodigies with funny nicknames that our Protag will defeat.

Well to be honest, there's no way Ikta isn't going to win. Especially because it will lead to a scene with wonder boy wondering how he lost to a lazy strategy.

I really like the show and was not expecting the pinky stuff. Pretty legit, but as far as the general story beats go, you should know what to expect.

 

[Aki-at]

i would watch a crazy taxi anime

Well you're in luck, they want to go one better and make it live action that absolutely no one asked for!

(I wanted a Shinobi anime instead of live action :<)

 

[blurr]

Critical Discourse time

(Please note that as often occurs on the internet the author of the original piece immediately attracted a harassment campaign against her for this relatively light analysis on moe's bullshit. Don't do that and fight against it if you see it, please.)

So I don't think the article itself is spectacularly new to anyone in here, since being honest, I think people in here (especially those of you who have greater knowledge of what girls/women actually experience in day-to-day-life, either through living arrangements or actually being a woman) probably already know most of the points this brings up. TLDR: Moe is infantalising of its characters and non-threatening for the most part. But some of the twitter chatter is interesting:

Ah yes, I've been hearing about it on twitter so I checked it out. I understand her concerns and the significance of the problem probably goes beyond my knowledge of women(at least out of my own experiences) however I do think Moe is good as an aesthetic choice at the very least - the characters of Shirobako are a good example for this. Kokoro Connect is another show I can think of, while not apparent initially, the characters grow in depth later on revealing more about them. Although I won't be surprised if people would think otherwise(re: aesthetic).

I think about K-On, a quintessential example of moe anime, I do like the aesthetic and the girls' personalities but I find myself at a loss to defend this entirely.

 

[Jintor]

Well kinda what I feel like it's getting at is the 'unreality' of the situation. Obvious anime being a fictional medium about fictional bullshit is plagued by things that are unreal, but I think the focus is more on how... idealised? How non-'human' its characters can be? Like, K-On is often held up as an exemplar of moe anime but I think there's something to K-on's direction (especially K-On!!'s direction) that elevates it and gives characters room to breath and seem more real than the majority of moeblob highschoolers. On the other hand New Game, for example, is a perfectly fine show but its characters are all, if not 100% archetypical, don't seem especially 'real'. Unpacking why exactly is probably an essay in itself, but...

I wouldn't qualify Shirobako as a moe anime but you're right in saying the female character designs at least are straight out of the IKEA Moe playbook. Probably deliberately to accentuate the smash-cut to the car in that first scene and pretty much everything going off that that makes the drama/'reality' of the show more... well, real.

 

[Narag]

Berserk (2016) 11

Back half of the show has steadily improved with this and the previous ep finally sorting out the action issues and delivering as well as it can given the show's design decisions. CG doesn't stand out in such a negative light anymore and you can see it being used well with the camerawork. The mass of spirits or whatever doesn't look good to begin with but there's a neat bit where they adapt the first page of chapter 172 where it's attacking refugees. They pull the camera back from all of this in a longer shot as it passes between Mozgus and Guts to show them confronting one another on the wall which was the second page.

 

[Tuck]

91 Days - 9
Another solid episode. A bit more low key, but overall well done.

Thought the ending was a tad abrupt/lacked the necessary oomph, but aside from that it was a great episode again.

EDIT: Lol @ the people teleporting. Didn't even notice.

Garo the animation 5-7

Maybe I had high expectation for this from what I was reading here, but as of right now I find this ok, but really nothing more.

While I do like the characters design, I feel like the animation is lacking something.
Mostly in fights, since they lack oumnf and impact most of the time. Maybe it's the constant mix of CG and 2D?

Also sometimes I feel the episode goes all over the place, episode 7 was really guilty of this, that werewolf thing made little sense to me.

Also while I understand it's a monster of the week situation where we learn about the MCs and see them develop but I feel most of these episodes lack some kind of good ending point.

The one episode I really liked was BLOODVILLE with the cursed child story, but there wasn't another like this one yet.

I'll keep watching, but It's not as good as I thought it would be. It doesn't give me the feeling of one more episode that I like to have.

I enjoyed the whole show - a lot. That said, the first half is pretty standard. Its well produced but nothing particularly original. The second half, however, went in a direction I didn't really expect, and was all the stronger for it.

Excited for the movie.

 

[ShinRPGamer]

Ace Attorney 8

Depending on how they handle Turnabout Goodbyes, I'll either be continue watching AA or dropping it. Right now, it's starting off alright.

 

[blurr]

Well kinda what I feel like it's getting at is the 'unreality' of the situation. Obvious anime being a fictional medium about fictional bullshit is plagued by things that are unreal, but I think the focus is more on how... idealised? How non-'human' its characters can be? Like, K-On is often held up as an exemplar of moe anime but I think there's something to K-on's direction (especially K-On!!'s direction) that elevates it and gives characters room to breath and seem more real than the majority of moeblob highschoolers. On the other hand New Game, for example, is a perfectly fine show but its characters are all, if not 100% archetypical, don't seem especially 'real'. Unpacking why exactly is probably an essay in itself, but....

Apart from making it uncomfortable for female viewers sometimes, I think the article wasn't concerned about unreality in itself but that they are giving a wrong impression(don't know if I would call it idealised) of how women are generally. As you said, unreality is inherent to fiction.

However, adapting certain anime to better suit these adults while still appealing to its original audience means giving children messages about what women are and should be which are rooted in deliberate unreality.

I don't think New Game is meant for children though.

Yes, I agree K-On is often exemplified for moe but in reality it is milder than others.

Cornbread's famous on twitter now

 

[zswordsman]

Witchcraft Works 10-12 END

These last episodes tone down the comedy considerably in exchange for a more serious climactic arc. This is unfortunate, since it doesn't play to the series' strengths. As I said when I began watching the show, this sort of anime works better when plot is absent. Earlier episodes were good about minimizing the presence of plot, but these episodes felt it was necessary to start making extended explanations of the magic systems of the fictional world. You could tell Mizushima's heart wasn't in all this seriousness either, as he kept making jarring cuts or compressing certain scenes to ludicrous extents. Still, there were some fun moments in these episodes, particularly the friendship the bear and rabbit minions strike up with each other. There were some interesting visual ideas as well, such as the visualization of the magical realms, even if they were inconsistently executed.

Of course, the show as a whole was well worth watching. Episode 8 alone justifies the watch, as that is a 10/10 comedy masterpiece.

I really liked this series too, it kept me subbing to crunchyroll when I first subscribed on a trial. I hadn't watched anime as much as I had gone down to only watching Naruto lol.

Episode 8 is my favorite episode too.

 

[Red Frost]

Tsugumomo of all things just got an anime adaption announced. No way this doesn't get censored to high heavens.

How? It's like TLR times a thousand. I'm imagining at least a bit of controversy for CR/Funi (or whoever gets it) if it gains any amount of notoriety.

 

[Geist-]

Well to be honest, there's no way Ikta isn't going to win. Especially because it will lead to a scene with wonder boy wondering how he lost to a lazy strategy.

What I meant was, I hope he doesn't just disappear after one loss while another new prodigy takes his place. It would be cool to see a well developed antagonist in a series like this.

 

[JulianImp]

Fairy Tail ep.52

That's got to be Battler Ushiromiya. Or, at the very least, the ultimate imposter from DR pretending to be him.

In my mind Jotaro is so stoic and quiet all the time because he's trying to think of a cool one liner to say.

That's... actually a fairly intersting way of looking at his characterization!

On a more serious note the best "moe" character comes from the excessively problematic&#8482; Monogatari series because the HanaKana voiced Sengoku Nadeko has the best character arc. She's boring and plain compared to the rest of the cast and is subject to a lot of the leering nature, even moreso then the other girls (Twister?)

But then she flips her shit and she suddenly becomes amazing in minutes.

Yeah. She went from worst side character to best and most threatening antagonist in just a couple episodes. I think I like her arc even more because it actually gave Kaiki an incredibly large role to play while we learned more about his past with Gahara.

There's a reason I love Monogatari... and it isn't the creepy fanservice.

Spoiler

Seriously.