Support NeoGAF

[OmegaSmash]

I wish Lucina had somewhat different physics at least, although they may not have done that because it made Roy so much worse compared to Marth in Melee. I can understand Dark Pit only having the weapon moves be different, since he's literally just a dark Pit.

I think that Lucina has overall slightly higher damage and knockback than non tipper Marth, so there's that. But move speed wise, I haven't heard anything significant.

I've also been hearing that Doc lost some of his move properties from Melee (one of them is his pills going in a trajectory that's much closer to Mario's fireballs) to keep him closer to Mario. Don't know how true this is, but I have a feeling that it could be true.

 

[MrSaturn99]

This broke my heart. Also Lucas' departure, because even if the B moves were similar, the A attacks (which comprise the majority of the moveset) were night and day compared to Ness, I preferred using Lucas as a result. That godly Up A...

running into a crowd with that was sooooooooooo goooooood

why lucas why did you leave

 

[Neiteio]

This broke my heart. Also Lucas' departure, because even if the B moves were similar, the A attacks (which comprise the majority of the moveset) were night and day compared to Ness, I preferred using Lucas as a result. That godly Up A...

I have absolutely nothing to support this theory, but I feel oddly confident Wolf will come back as DLC.

 

[Azure J]

Lucas' upsmash, downsmash, nair, dair and bair completely justified the character's inclusion imo.

#FreeLucas

 

[SatoAilDarko]

I was cool with Lucina because she provided a female sword-user to go along with all the male ones.

Dark Pit is just horrible without how similar he is. He gets a theme and unique Final Smash though. It's just such a biased move. The franchise had basically one game in the last 20 years. Dark Samus would have been much better even if kind of created three versions of Samus.

Both Wolf and Lucas were very unique due to their standard attacks being different. Really hope they come back as DLC along with Mewtwo.

 

[Richie]

I meant to say "at most". I got the two words mixed-up. :/

I don't think Wolf is a semi-clone/ clone at all.

Lol, I actually read your post the way you intended to.

I was already surprised when Lucina turned out to be so much of a clone, but if there was someone who actively needed different moves to prove himself was Dark Pit, it's a shame they couldn't have given him Pit's old moveset at least. Then again, clones taking up minimal development time, and yadda yadda.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

My personal theory is still that we only got Dr. Mario/Dark Pit/Lucina as last minute clones in the first place to try and make up for the IC getting the boot, and that they were possibly done even quicker and later in development than Melee's were since all three were already modeled and rigged in the game as Koopaling-style alts.

Also Wolf is like Sakura is to Ryu; same basic concepts behind the specials, but definitely a unique moveset and playstyle.

 

[OmegaSmash]

Unless they revamp Lucas, he's super dead as a playable character.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

I don't see what's stopping Lucas and Wolf being DLC, at least not to the same extent stopping Squirtle/Ivysaur/Snake/Ice Climbers. Even a couple of their specials being customs for Ness/Fox doesn't mean much to me; Luigi has Mario's fireballs for instance, and in For Glory it's not like those characters would have access to what Lucas and Wolf have by default.

 

[Red Arremer]

Also Wolf is like Sakura is to Ryu; same basic concepts behind the specials, but definitely a unique moveset and playstyle.

No. Sakura is much closer to Ryu than Wolf is to Fox. Sakura to Ryu is more like (Brawl/Smash 4) Falco is to Fox.
Again, Chun-Li and Ryu are a much better comparison. In their normals, Chun-Li and Fox mostly use their feet, while Ryu and Wolf both use a combination of kicks and fists/claws. Chun and Ryu share a few special with significantly different properties (a hurricane kick, a rising punch/kick and a fireball), the same goes for Fox and Wolf.

 

[Green Mamba]

My personal theory is still that we only got Dr. Mario/Dark Pit/Lucina as last minute clones in the first place to try and make up for the IC getting the boot, and that they were possibly done even quicker and later in development than Melee's were since all three were already modeled and rigged in the game as Koopaling-style alts.

Also Wolf is like Sakura is to Ryu; same basic concepts behind the specials, but definitely a unique moveset and playstyle.

Degrading a previously playable character into a costume seems like something Sakurai wouldn't do, not even to Dr. Mario. I'm thinking Lucina and Dark Pit were both originally costumes like Alph (we obviously know Lucina was) and that they were, like you said, upgraded to full characters after the Ice Climbers were cut, but I'm thinking Dr. Mario was added wholesale, both to help fill space and to bring back something from Melee to at least partially fill that void.

Though Dark Pit was probably the final character added, as there's a couple things in the game that suggest this--his online profile picture is listed after every other character, including the third party characters, who are otherwise listed last. The same is true for the internal ordering of their character trophies--the third party characters are last, save for Dark Pit.

 

[MrSaturn99]

I don't see what's stopping Lucas and Wolf being DLC, at least not to the same extent stopping Squirtle/Ivysaur/Snake/Ice Climbers. Even a couple of their specials being customs for Ness/Fox doesn't mean much to me; Luigi has Mario's fireballs for instance, and in For Glory it's not like those characters would have access to what Lucas and Wolf have by default.

Pretty much how I feel.

 

[Loco4Coco]

Wolf and Lucas will be back as part of the "Free Dessert" DLC.

Spoiler

For $14.99

 

[Drago]

Unless they revamp Lucas, he's super dead as a playable character.

I'm just so gutted that Lucas got the boot, man. Not to mention he took all Mother 3 related content with him. That cuts me deep. I can only hope he makes a return as DLC but I don't wanna get my hopes up for that

 

[Kangi]

I just yearn for Lucas' up smash.

I need it.

 

[BassForever]

Wolf is much less cloneish than SSBM Falco.

Even N64 Luigi is still pretty different.

I go under a pretty loose definition of clone, share more than a few of the same moves or have a very similar look even if they have different properties beyond basic punch kick combos and you're a clone. Toon Link, Luigi, and Wolf are at the end of this definition. Lucas is close to the middle, he's pretty damn cloneish in look if not in actual play terms.

A good example is the Shoto's. Ryu and Ken are very similar in a lot of games but Ryu and Sakura play completely different even though they share a lot of the same moves. I'd still consider her a clone.

This is basically what I've always said, though I'd argue post N64 Luigi > Lucas in terms of being almost not a clone anymore especially in Brawl/Smash 4 where Mario's down b was changed to Fluud. So that leaves them with only one move that's clonesque (Luigi's fire ball) and a move that acts radically different despite being a samey animation (Luigi's uppercut). Lucas, Wolf, and Luigi all have completely different a's, but Wolf's and Lucas's specials are clearly inspired from Ness and Fox/Falco, where as Luigi actually has a unique move that acts completely different from Mario's (luigi rocket vs cape).

 

[Neiteio]

Wolf and Lucas will be back as part of the "Free Dessert" DLC.

Spoiler

For $14.99

Worth every penny!

 

[Hatchtag]

I don't see what's stopping Lucas and Wolf being DLC, at least not to the same extent stopping Squirtle/Ivysaur/Snake/Ice Climbers. Even a couple of their specials being customs for Ness/Fox doesn't mean much to me; Luigi has Mario's fireballs for instance, and in For Glory it's not like those characters would have access to what Lucas and Wolf have by default.

Same here. Hell, I think it kinda depends on how many DLC characters we get.
If we get:
~4 I'd say they're iffy.
~8 I'd say they're guaranteed.
~12 and we'd probably get Squirtle and Ivysaur too.
~16 that's just not gonna happen.

Spoiler

I really could see 12 happening (mostly due to already having 7 unique non-returning veterans, plus 2 non-returning clones) but it'd be over the course of over a year. But I don't think more than that will happen unless they plan multi-year TF2/DOTA-level support for the game.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Degrading a previously playable character into a costume seems like something Sakurai wouldn't do, not even to Dr. Mario. I'm thinking Lucina and Dark Pit were both originally costumes like Alph (we obviously know Lucina was) and that they were, like you said, upgraded to full characters after the Ice Climbers were cut, but I'm thinking Dr. Mario was added wholesale, both to help fill space and to bring back something from Melee to at least partially fill that void.

I think Sakurai flat out said SSB4's clones were already alts for Mario/Pit/Marth at one point in development (I think it was in that 'they're only children' Famitsu article), and the original Duck Hunt/Bowser Jr. NoA tester leak also said in an earlier build Dr. Mario was a costume and not a separate character. He definitely got more of a break than Dark Pit and Lucina though through virtue of having a move in Melee that was otherwise absent in 4 up until that point.

Though Dark Pit was probably the final character added, as there's a couple things in the game that suggest this--his online profile picture is listed after every other character, including the third party characters, who are otherwise listed last. The same is true for the internal ordering of their character trophies--the third party characters are last, save for Dark Pit.

This makes me think Lucina may have been decided on earlier due to her huge popularity from FE:A's success; I don't think it'd be an exaggeration to say she was way more demanded than Robin, and at least tied with Chrom. Hell, back at E3 they may not have made a final decision on how to treat Dark Pit, hence him casually showing up in Palutena's trailer without a newcomer tagline.

Doesn't Brawl internally list Jigglypuff, Toon Link and Wolf after everybody including the 3rd party guests?

 

[OmegaSmash]

No. Sakura is much closer to Ryu than Wolf is to Fox. Sakura to Ryu is more like (Brawl/Smash 4) Falco is to Fox.
Again, Chun-Li and Ryu are a much better comparison. In their normals, Chun-Li and Fox mostly use their feet, while Ryu and Wolf both use a combination of kicks and fists/claws. Chun and Ryu share a few special with significantly different properties (a hurricane kick, a rising punch/kick and a fireball), the same goes for Fox and Wolf.

It works better since Wolf is from the same series as Fox, and his specials are clearly based around his style, same as Sakura with Ryu. Both technically follow the same fighting style, but in wildly different ways. Yous example would fit Link and Samus more, since they're from different series yet their specials follow the same template to a degree (multihitting up B, chargable neutral B, bomb as a down B and a side B projectile that changes properties with different inputs)

 

[Man God]

If Wolf is DLC then I'll have a big problem on my hands.

You see I like a world where Wolf isn't in the game. Too bad he didn't take Falco and Fox with him. Makes my main character, the Random button, that much stronger for not having to deal with him.

Then again though I'd feel like I was missing out if I didn't buy him. The decision might be tipped if there's a season pass that saves me money but includes Wolf or if he has a different Final Smash.

 

[Fiktion]

If Wolf is DLC then I'll have a big problem on my hands.

You see I like a world where Wolf isn't in the game. Too bad he didn't take Falco and Fox with him. Makes my main character, the Random button, that much stronger for not having to deal with him.

Then again though I'd feel like I was missing out if I didn't buy him. The decision might be tipped if there's a season pass that saves me money but includes Wolf or if he has a different Final Smash.

It'll probably be like Mario Kart 8 with a few characters and stages bundled in a pack.

 

[KLatin Scelus]

I just yearn for Lucas' up smash.

I need it.

Well, Ness' Custom "PK Rising Flash" is probably the closest we will get to that.

 

[akidnamededdy]

First character DLC is the three character Animal Pack including Wolf, Squirtle, and

Spoiler

Snake

.

Please.

 

[Man God]

It'll probably be like Mario Kart 8 with a few characters and stages bundled in a pack.

That's what I'm afraid of.

Lucas, Pichu, Roy, Mewtwo. You're all welcome to come back.

IC, Wolf? Stay far away. Far, far away. Go play with Ridley.

EDIT: Snake, Ivysaur are also welcome back. Squirtle, meh, whatever, you can come I guess.

 

[BassForever]

I'd be cool with Dark Pit and Lucina returning in another Smash game if they were given the Luigi/Falco/Toon Link/...*gag*Ganondorf*gag* treatment. Dark Pit would be incredibly easy to do this with thanks to the plethora of KI:U weapons they could pull from and you could also do a number of different things to Lucina to make her more unique with the obvious being give her Aether as it's actually one of her signature moves.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Same here. Hell, I think it kinda depends on how many DLC characters we get.
If we get:
~4 I'd say they're iffy.
~8 I'd say they're guaranteed.
~12 and we'd probably get Squirtle and Ivysaur too.
~16 that's just not gonna happen.

Spoiler

I really could see 12 happening (mostly due to already having 7 unique non-returning veterans, plus 2 non-returning clones) but it'd be over the course of over a year. But I don't think more than that will happen unless they plan multi-year TF2/DOTA-level support for the game.

I really don't follow Pokemon as closely as I do for everything else in Smash, but while Squirtle still seems really popular and iconic, even in Brawl Ivysaur feels really obscure and like it's only in the game due to the Trainer's 'mons having to represent the evolution cycle.

Is there a more popular Pokemon with a similar type/build who could inherit that moveset?

 

[K-A-Deman]

Hey were getting ready to have a funeral for you, show some respect.

Spoiler

...Anyone have any words for dear Spainkiller?

 

[IntelliHeath]

Reason why I went with 3DS intro first because most of us are currently playing with 3DS version so I'm going to start with it.

 

[Man God]

Lucina is great and doesn't need anything changed.

Dark Pit really could have used some different KI:U stuff, but whatever, he's LITERALLY A CLONE.

 

[OricWindstar]

Reason why I went with 3DS intro first because most of us are currently playing with 3DS version so I'm going to start with it.

 

[Man God]

I really don't follow Pokemon as closely as I do for everything else in Smash, but while Squirtle still seems really popular and iconic, even in Brawl Ivysaur feels really obscure and like it's only in the game due to the Trainer's 'mons having to represent the evolution cycle.

Is there a more popular Pokemon with a similar type/build who could inherit that moveset?

Bulbasaur/Venusaur are both more popular.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Dark Pit should have been Brawl Pit changed up slightly to fit SSB4's engine.

 

[BassForever]

Lucina is great and doesn't need anything changed.

Dark Pit really could have used some different KI:U stuff, but whatever, he's LITERALLY A CLONE.

And Lucina modeled her fighting style so that she could pretend to be Marth, but I'd still rather her get Aether/Quick Draw over Marth's uppercut/dancing blade as those moves are things she actually does in her game.

 

[Hatchtag]

I really don't follow Pokemon as closely as I do for everything else in Smash, but while Squirtle still seems really popular and iconic, even in Brawl Ivysaur feels really obscure and like it's only in the game due to the Trainer's 'mons having to represent the evolution cycle.

Is there a more popular Pokemon with a similar type/build who could inherit that moveset?

Maybe Bulbasaur. But I don't think they'd replace Ivysaur with Bulbasaur. I think his history in Smash outweighs the difference in popularity.

 

[random25]

Reason why I went with 3DS intro first because most of us are currently playing with 3DS version so I'm going to start with it.

Here we go!

 

[Man God]

And Lucina modeled her fighting style so that she could pretend to be Marth, but I'd still rather her get Aether/Quick Draw over Marth's uppercut/dancing blade as those moves are things she actually does in her game.

Fine by me. She's my favorite Smash FE character behind Ike.

 

[Green Mamba]

Doesn't Brawl internally list Jigglypuff, Toon Link and Wolf after everybody including the 3rd party guests?

No, Sonic is the final character, listed internally. Wolf and Jigglypuff are listed after a lot of cut characters that are after the other, non-third party characters.

I'd be cool with Dark Pit and Lucina returning in another Smash game if they were given the Luigi/Falco/Toon Link/...*gag*Ganondorf*gag* treatment. Dark Pit would be incredibly easy to do this with thanks to the plethora of KI:U weapons they could pull from and you could also do a number of different things to Lucina to make her more unique with the obvious being give her Aether as it's actually one of her signature moves.

I'm really not big on Dark Pit taking any real development time. I'd sooner he was just cut and made room for a more interesting clone.

But real talk, I don't expect any of the three SSB4 clones to be in the next Smash Bros.

 

[KLatin Scelus]

Reason why I went with 3DS intro first because most of us are currently playing with 3DS version so I'm going to start with it.

Guess now would be a good time to add this.

 

[BassForever]

No, Sonic is the final character, listed internally. Wolf and Jigglypuff are listed after a lot of cut characters that are after the other, non-third party characters.


I'm really not big on Dark Pit taking any real development time. I'd sooner he was just cut and made room for a more interesting clone.

But real talk, I don't expect any of the three SSB4 clones to be in the next Smash Bros.

Did you play KI:U? I'd say he's a far more interesting clone then most other choices I've seen this thread suggest

 

[Man God]

No, Sonic is the final character, listed internally. Wolf and Jigglypuff are listed after a lot of cut characters that are after the other, non-third party characters.


I'm really not big on Dark Pit taking any real development time. I'd sooner he was just cut and made room for a more interesting clone.

But real talk, I don't expect any of the three SSB4 clones to be in the next Smash Bros.

Lucina will just take Marth's place next game, I agree.

 

[Green Mamba]

Did you play KI:U? I'd say he's a far more interesting clone then most other choices I've seen this thread suggest

Yes, I did. And he's fine in KI:U, but a palette swap as a separate character in Smash Bros. will never not rub me the wrong way.

EDIT: And honestly, I would disagree entirely that he's an interesting choice in any facet. He's uninteresting visually and his moveset is literally two or three tweaks away from being another character's. Sure, he has a distinct personality, but so what? That hardly comes across in Smash Bros. outside of victory poses and taunts. Every character in Smash has a distinct personality barring ones like Dr. Mario and Zero Suit Samus and such.

And even beyond that, I don't think he was very interesting in Uprising either. Outside of the jokes made at his expense, Dark Pit's actual character is flat and uninteresting. There's nothing interesting about him as far as I'm concerned. He works as a joke within Uprising but beyond that I don't think he's worth enough to stand on his own at all.

 

[ffdgh]

Lucina will just take Marth's place next game, I agree.

Fire emblem awakening 2 confirmed?

 

[Neoxon]

Guess now would be a good time to add this.

Now they need to make a Wii U version.

Based TFS

 

[Lunar15]

Man, I fucked up and totally forgot to reserve the bundle on Amazon. Any chance they'll up the stock or something?

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

Not the biggest fan of Project M, but god damn that HD Hyrule Castle stage is *nice*. I'd really like to see a remake of that stage much like that in Smash Wii U.

Ocarina of Time Zelda and Ganondorf look terrible, though. It's not PM's fault; it's just amazing how far those character designs have come and how much better they've gotten since the Ocarina days. Especially Zelda.

 

[Golnei]

Maybe Bulbasaur. But I don't think they'd replace Ivysaur with Bulbasaur. I think his history in Smash outweighs the difference in popularity.

If they bring the moveset over in a DLC character, I think they'd probably retain Ivysaur - even without Pokemon Trainer, it'd allow them to keep the Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard trio intact, and avoid the extra work of resizing hitboxes, altering physics properties and completely rebalancing moves due to the size differences of Blastoise, Bulbasaur or Venusaur. Though Ivysaur's trophy description kind of makes me think there's a possibility they'd choose Venusaur...

 

[Man God]

Not the biggest fan of Project M, but god damn that HD Hyrule Castle stage is *nice*. I'd really like to see a remake of that stage much like that in Smash Wii U.m

Ocarina of Time Zelda and Ganondorf look terrible, though. It's not PM's fault; it's just amazing how far those character designs have come and how much better they've gotten since the Ocarina days. Especially Zelda.

It kinda is Project M's fault.

If they bring the moveset over in a DLC character, I think they'd probably retain Ivysaur - even without Pokemon Trainer, it'd allow them to keep the Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard trio intact, and avoid the extra work of resizing hitboxes, altering physics properties and completely rebalancing moves due to the size differences of Blastoise, Bulbasaur or Venusaur. Though Ivysaur's trophy description kind of makes me think there's a possibility they'd choose Venusaur...

Venusaur would work really well with how its specials work and how the character plays. A big special bruiser.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Wolf is housebroken

 

[Ozium]

Lucina will just take Marth's place next game, I agree.

exactly.. at this point marth is basically female lucina