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Super Street Fighter 4 Æ |OT5| Waiting to go from Super to Ultra

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H

Huw_Dawson

Member
The problem with online play is that people are too comfortable playing in one specific way, and you can't shake them from that one way at all. So it becomes very one dimensional to fight them, which is very bad for offline play where players are forced to think outside of set patterns.

Looking at Rolento in USF4, he seems quite similar to his SFxT self. I like how he only needs to hit an Ex Patriot Circle to combo his ultra. I'll play him this weekend if I can and give impressions.

Another call for things for me to test if I get to play USF4 this weekend at Dreamhack, btw. Don't expect amazing feedback but I can at least tell you if Bison and Gief are actually dead.
 
O

OceanBlue

Member
MiniBossBattle said:
So Bison's -1 frame after lk Scissors. That means an opponent can jab to beat everything but EX Psycho Crusher, right? Boo this man.
Click to expand...

At least lk scissors puts you out of jab range, unlike Sakura's lk tatsu :<. I'm not saying it's completely the same thing, but Fei's lp rekka is minus on block too. It'll probably be hard to deal with Cody though, since his lk goes so far lol.
 
M

MiniBossBattle

Member
Horseress said:
all jabs are 1 frame?
Click to expand...

If he is -1 frame, anyone with a 3 frame jab can safely jab him out of his normals (unless he is pushed back). I think the issue is is that in the corner is when Bison can apply pressure. If you block light scissors there now, you don't have to guess, you just jab.
 
X

xCobalt

Member
MiniBossBattle said:
If he is -1 frame, anyone with a 3 frame jab can safely jab him out of his normals (unless he is pushed back). I think the issue is is that in the corner is when Bison can apply pressure. If you block light scissors there now, you don't have to guess, you just jab.
Click to expand...

Just because the opponent is in the corner, you don't HAVE to be pressing buttons. If you get jabbed out of normals, it's your fault for pressing buttons when you shouldn't be. Bison is -1 after it but he's still relatively safe. Many people start making mistakes once they're cornered and its your job to capitalize on it. Watch what they do and react properly.
 
H

Horseress

Member
MiniBossBattle said:
If he is -1 frame, anyone with a 3 frame jab can safely jab him out of his normals (unless he is pushed back). I think the issue is is that in the corner is when Bison can apply pressure. If you block light scissors there now, you don't have to guess, you just jab.
Click to expand...

xCobalt said:
Just because the opponent is in the corner, you don't HAVE to be pressing buttons. If you get jabbed out of normals, it's your fault for pressing buttons when you shouldn't be. Bison is -1 after it but he's still relatively safe. Many people start making mistakes once they're cornered and its your job to capitalize on it. Watch what they do and react properly.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
Ok, it changes Bison's corner pressure game, but it doesn't kill it. People are, again, overreacting IMO
 
T

Threi

notag
Scissors > low short xx scissors isnt how bison's pressure game works (not since vanilla), and that isnt why his pressure game is scary (but it is why its derpy). Its in delayed normals and scissors that make him a force in the corner. He is able to easily whiff punish anyone who tries to fight back from the corner.

All it being -1f means is bison can't bully chars that dont have 3f normals anymore (he used to be able to do it with impunity) and that bison players have to actually put some thought into scissor kicks followups, instead of just throwing whatever normal they feel like out there.
 
M

MiniBossBattle

Member
Threi said:
Scissors > low short xx scissors isnt how bison's pressure game works (not since vanilla), and that isnt why his pressure game is scary (but it is why its derpy). Its in delayed normals and scissors that make him a force in the corner. He is able to easily whiff punish anyone who tries to fight back from the corner.

All it being -1f means is bison can't bully chars that dont have 3f normals anymore (he used to be able to do it with impunity) and that bison players have to actually put some thought into scissor kicks followups, instead of just throwing whatever normal they feel like out there.
Click to expand...

But thats why I liked him...
I will always have Sim and Yang.
 
H

Huw_Dawson

Member
Rice-Eater said:
Can we make request for you to try certain stuff?
Click to expand...

I can.

(Sorry for mentioning this too many times if I have, I'm pretty hyped for my trip.)

This is really late in the game for this btw, but:

Does anyone have any tips for coping online when playing as Rufus?

I cope offline perfectly well. But online, it seems like everyone suddenly becomes much more goofy, jumpy and overall more active.

Like in the game I just played, the third round (me vs a Bison) involved him jumping around with j.mk, then teleporting backwards and then going for random Psycho Crushers. And I lost that round because I cannot deal with that kind of silly tactic.

I've also run into one particular Ryu who, once remotely pressured, starts jumping backwards and doing air-to-air j.HK. And it feels like I can't do anything about it. But offline, I play more confidently and I see much less of these kinds of tactics.

These are obviously valid tactics - I'm losing to them, after all, but my question is, what can a Rufus player really do about it? He doesn't have great normals, he's big, and any pressure you try and mount is just clean beat out by unpredictable actions. And the latency online makes it much easier for me to miss critical parts of my game like my st.lk st.hp link and true blockstrings out of low divekicks.
 
N

NaM

Does not have twelve inches...
Huw_Dawson said:
I can.

(Sorry for mentioning this too many times if I have, I'm pretty hyped for my trip.)

This is really late in the game for this btw, but:

Does anyone have any tips for coping online when playing as Rufus?

I cope offline perfectly well. But online, it seems like everyone suddenly becomes much more goofy, jumpy and overall more active.

Like in the game I just played, the third round (me vs a Bison) involved him jumping around with j.mk, then teleporting backwards and then going for random Psycho Crushers. And I lost that round because I cannot deal with that kind of silly tactic.

I've also run into one particular Ryu who, once remotely pressured, starts jumping backwards and doing air-to-air j.HK. And it feels like I can't do anything about it. But offline, I play more confidently and I see much less of these kinds of tactics.

These are obviously valid tactics - I'm losing to them, after all, but my question is, what can a Rufus player really do about it? He doesn't have great normals, he's big, and any pressure you try and mount is just clean beat out by unpredictable actions. And the latency online makes it much easier for me to miss critical parts of my game like my st.lk st.hp link and true blockstrings out of low divekicks.
Click to expand...

s.HP is a decent anti-air, it can trade but it's better than c.MP in certain situations, try it and see if it works for you. If an opponent is jumping backwards follow him into the corner, a well spaced s.HK can beat or trade with anything or you could react fast with a EX snake strike, you can also use EX tornado in the recovery frames of the jump, be patient while closing the gap and never let them out of the corner. BTW IRCC the only true blockstring he has is c.lk c.lk c.lk
 
Kaleinc

Kaleinc

Banned
Lost Fragment said:
No.

Delay your scissor kick slightly. Boom, it beats that shit.
Click to expand...

No. Bison is right under pressure after blocked light scissors if it's -1. Pushback will be significant only at max range and a bit closer. But at max range even heavy scissors are safe so it is irrelevant. Know why rekkas, or akuma's sHK can be negative? That's right: dp, dp FADC whatever, ex chicken etc. So even if shit is not + or 0 you have to respect those options. What can bison do? If he's in range you can braindead him for free. Now that rog is -1 on his dash punch or whatever it's called which catches nj and leads to ultra stuff sounds even more ridiculous.
Before someone mentions red focus - everyone has it, doesn't change anything.
 
T

Threi

notag
fspm said:
Know why rekkas, or akuma's sHK can be negative? That's right: dp, dp FADC whatever, ex chicken etc. So even if shit is not + or 0 you have to respect those options. What can bison do?
Click to expand...
EX psycho crusher, EX headstomp, EX scissors, EX devil's reverse, teleport.

All moves that are inv from the first frame, which means they won't be hit by a low short/jab/3f move

Once again: having a move that leaves you at frame disadvantage (and -1 is VERY slight) is not the same as having a move that is unsafe.

How the hell could you possibly play a char like deejay (who currently has specials and normals that can leave him at -1 or worse on HIT) with that line of thinking lol
 
R

Rice-Eater

Member
So now that we have a full list of changes, is Yeb around anywhere to make a USF4 mod like he did with his AE 2012 mod a few years ago?
 
G

gutabo

Member
Ok, I might be a fool(or just stupid) but after almost 3 years of retirement I'm going to play a money match against Justin Wong this weekend. Any tips? My guess is that it'll be a honda vs rufus match, I'm as rusty as ever and my memory is fuzzy. Thanks in advance!
 
K

kevo_huevo

Member
gutabo said:
Ok, I might be a fool(or just stupid) but after almost 3 years of retirement I'm going to play a money match against Justin Wong this weekend. Any tips? My guess is that it'll be a honda vs rufus match, I'm as rusty as ever and my memory is fuzzy. Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

I like standing jab/mp as a quicker anti-air to dive kick. I usually anti-air with jab headbutt, but if he dive kicks you low, it won't work.
I like to ex headbutt any blocked ex messiah.

Proximity OS Rufus' crouching fierce with ultra
kappa

edit:
maybe study this video of hoodaman vs justin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVxysRHzSXo

or look for some matches of hoodaman vs ricky ortiz?
 
T

the_log_ride

Member
gutabo said:
Ok, I might be a fool(or just stupid) but after almost 3 years of retirement I'm going to play a money match against Justin Wong this weekend. Any tips? My guess is that it'll be a honda vs rufus match, I'm as rusty as ever and my memory is fuzzy. Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

Hell of a way to get back into the game.
 
G

gutabo

Member
kevo_huevo said:
I like standing jab/mp as a quicker anti-air to dive kick. I usually anti-air with jab headbutt, but if he dive kicks you low, it won't work.
I like to ex headbutt any blocked ex messiah.

Proximity OS Rufus' crouching fierce with ultra
kappa

edit:
maybe study this video of hoodaman vs justin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVxysRHzSXo

or look for some matches of hoodaman vs ricky ortiz?
Click to expand...
Actually IIRC you can c.HP xx super his couching HP is he's being too predictable. Standing HP into super works too but only as a counter hit.

Let's see:
Far LP/MP/MK are ok, close MK is very good too. Close LP sucks at AAing divekicks(bad hurtbox).
IIRC justin likes to do very delayed divekicks to beat jesus chop(far standing HP)

Blocked EX messiah:
- LP headbutt beats LK ender, delayed or not
- oicho beats MK/HK delayed enders
- focus beats MK/HK enders
- reversal ultra 2 punishes LK ender FADC forwards
- reversal HP hands punishes LK ender FADC backwards(anywhere)
- reversal EX buttslam punishes LK ender FADC backwards(honda in corner only)

Blocked divekicks into anything are NOT a true blockstring.

Blocked EX Galactic Tornado can be punished between the vacuum effect and the actual hit with buttslam(any) or LP/EX headbutt/super/ultra(any), or the last hit can be backdashed

Crouching Fierce can either be absorbed and punished by focus attacking(lvl 1 or 2 will hit rufus even from max distance), or by cancelling into dash and then jab xx hands/far s.HK(if rufus is close/far) or super/ultra1 if available.

Crouching Rufus lets honda do c.MK xx Headbutt after MP/HP hands
Jewelman combos(HP hands into EX hands into c.LP xx HP hands) work with standing and crouching rufus
c.LP into MP hands DOES NOT WORK on him if he's standing(last hit most likely won't connect)

Slow reversals mean:
- can be easily safe jumped(most if not all safe jumps work on him, even after a one hit buttslam)
- charge OSes(like, after oicho) work against him
- walk up meaty LP/LK on wakeup are safe

After a regular throw anywhere he's very suceptible to ambiguous attacks/fake crossups
After a back throw in corner there are fake crossups that work on him because of his fat hurtbox

Can be fuzzy guard punished (risky, maybe as the last hit of a round or to dizzy)

EX messiah kick only goes through Honda on hit if he was point blank crouching and DOING NOTHING(kinda useless since none of Honda's frame traps will make the EX messiah go over him)

MP headbutt trades or beats df+MK(justin loves to use this to get near the opponent)

I have to check my notes on specific safe jumps and fake crossups because I don't remember all of them. I've seen Hoodaman dominate Ricky but I haven't seen him against justin, I'll check those videos, thanks!
 
L

Lost Fragment

Obsessed with 4chan
fspm said:
No. Bison is right under pressure after blocked light scissors if it's -1. Pushback will be significant only at max range and a bit closer. But at max range even heavy scissors are safe so it is irrelevant. Know why rekkas, or akuma's sHK can be negative? That's right: dp, dp FADC whatever, ex chicken etc. So even if shit is not + or 0 you have to respect those options. What can bison do? If he's in range you can braindead him for free. Now that rog is -1 on his dash punch or whatever it's called which catches nj and leads to ultra stuff sounds even more ridiculous.
Before someone mentions red focus - everyone has it, doesn't change anything.
Click to expand...

I'm not much of a Bison player, but you're telling me that he's forced into blockstun (outside of what Threi mentioned) after lk scissors from most ranges if it's -1? You can't just walk back a tick to bait a jab/whatever and punish? Finding it hard to believe that you can't just space your shit a little better to make up for it.
 
G

gutabo

Member
Justin is already in Lima, and he's playing some casuals at a friend's place right now. I'm watching him demolish younger people that has been playing the game non stop for the last 5 years and they all beat me(only kaneblueriver is not that good at AE). His rufus is sooo good... I'm scared now :(

EDIT: Played Justin in casuals, he beat me 10-0. I played recklessly and got some fake crossups on him, some counter gimmicks I described above and even won some rounds but the wong factor is too strong. Afterwards we talked for a bit(he's very nice) and he said that it is a very bad matchup for Honda and that he knows the matchup very well because he played mike(ross) a lot. There's still hope tho! I'll switch things up a bit for the moneymatch on saturday. And Justin thinks that the delayed wake up in ultra won't affect rufus because of his instant dive kick.
 
W

Westlo

Member
Ken

Official Changes

Walk speed slightly increased
Close Standing MK hitbox expanded downward, easier to connect on crouching opponents
Crouching HK start-up reduced from 8F to 7F
Forward Step Kick (6+MK) changed from -2 to -1 on block
Thunder Kick (6+HK) changed from -1* to ±0 on block *Originally -4 on block. Whether it means on hit (originally -1) or block is unclear.
L, M and H Hadoken damage increased from 60 to 70
EX Hadoken damage increased from 50*40 to 50*50
HP Shoryuken damage increased from 70*40*30 to 70*50*30
Shinryuken (UC1) non-cinematic damage increased by 30
Guren Senpukyaku (UC2) movement distance of first several frames slightly increased
Click to expand...

Bolded the new info, the rich get richer
mynicca1.png


Now I'm just crossing my fingers that he doesn't get nerfed from here on like Ken, Evil Ryu and Juri where from Alpha 2012 to Beta 2012.
 
Kaleinc

Kaleinc

Banned
Threi said:
EX psycho crusher, EX headstomp, EX scissors, EX devil's reverse, teleport.

All moves that are inv from the first frame, which means they won't be hit by a low short/jab/3f move
Click to expand...
I don't think you have enough charge to instantly use a special. Warp is possible - to eat some ultra, now that it has even more recovery.
Threi said:
How the hell could you possibly play a char like deejay (who currently has specials and normals that can leave him at -1 or worse on HIT) with that line of thinking lol
Click to expand...
You can't jump in on dj for free, cross him up for free or safely meaty all of his (ex) specials and ultras for free.

Lost Fragment said:
I'm not much of a Bison player, but you're telling me that he's forced into blockstun (outside of what Threi mentioned) after lk scissors from most ranges if it's -1? You can't just walk back a tick to bait a jab/whatever and punish? Finding it hard to believe that you can't just space your shit a little better to make up for it.
Click to expand...
If it's -1 you eat gief's ultra for certain and have 2 frames to walk back from a jab lol. lk scissors can be spaced no doubt but they already lose to nj and focus since vanilla, just as slide. The only thing bison had was 0 on block from any distance.
Try nj seth, rog, cammy, yun etc.
 
T

Threi

notag
fspm said:
I don't think you have enough charge to instantly use a special. Warp is possible - to eat some ultra, now that it has even more recovery.
Click to expand...
If both hits of scissors are blocked then yes you do have the charge after recovery. Hell, with the move being more unsafe (if it's due to added recovery) you will have an extra frame for charge.

fspm said:
You can't jump in on dj for free, cross him up for free or safely meaty all of his (ex) specials and ultras for free. .
Click to expand...
You can safely low meaty deejay and he cannot do anything about it. It is one of his core weaknesses. And comparing wakeups with goddamn BISON of all people is a moot argument to begin with. Not to mention the normals, pressure, and mobility that DeeJay doesn't have.

Those two characters aren't even remotely on the same level.
 
stn

stn

Member
You can jump on Dee-Jay. I think people overrate his fireball because his follow-up AA normals are very prone to trading (one of the reasons why I think Honda and Zangief beat him). Yeah, you can't jump on him if he has down-charge; however, he's completely vulnerable to safe jumps and meaty setups.

He's good against people who don't know the matchup (ex. Canada).

EDIT: RE: USF4

1. Why does Rolento have such bad range even though he has a baton and historically has had superior range? Can't wait to main him but he looks soooooooo stiff and clunky.

2. Why did they nerf Akuma's fireball when it wasn't even that good, and they already nerfed his vortex by default?
 
K

K.Sabot

Member
stn said:
You can jump on Dee-Jay. I think people overrate his fireball because his follow-up AA normals are very prone to trading (one of the reasons why I think Honda and Zangief beat him). Yeah, you can't jump on him if he has down-charge; however, he's completely vulnerable to safe jumps and meaty setups.

He's good against people who don't know the matchup (ex. Canada).

EDIT: RE: USF4

1. Why does Rolento have such bad range even though he has a baton and historically has had superior range? Can't wait to main him but he looks soooooooo stiff and clunky.

2. Why did they nerf Akuma's fireball when it wasn't even that good, and they already nerfed his vortex by default?
Click to expand...

Karma and Karma.
 
B

Bran Ketra

Banned
To get somewhat ready for Ultra Street Fighter IV next March, I ordered Street Fighter IV: Arcade Edition. I played SSFIV: AE before when I had PS+ until a couple months ago. I intend to buy physical versions of all the good games I downloaded from the Instant Games Collection over the past year and I started with AE.

I was ranked C+ with Ryu when I stopped. I have picked him the most since Street Fighter II.
 
stn

stn

Member
My characters in order of most use: Dee-Jay > Bison > Ryu. In my experience with SF4 and SF4 players in general, they overstate the effectiveness of fireballs. They also have ZERO patience and cry about long-range pokes the moment it takes them more than 10 seconds to get in. I'm not saying this about anyone here, just what I've seen browsing SRK, Eventhubs, and all the rage-mail I've gotten in the past.

Akuma's fireball is good for delaying momentum and setting up knockdowns, but its not amazing at raw keep-away. I mean, he's even pushing himself towards the corner. Its true that he can dominate a few select characters with raw fireballs (Guile, Zangief) but I don't think that's a good enough reason to keep nuking his defensive tactics. Not to mention Zangief SHOULD be dominated by fireballs since he's a grappler. Even then, even Zangief WILL get in eventually. This game doesn't allow you to throw fireballs all match unless you're Guile or Sagat.

Here's a good Akuma versus a good Honda. Fireballs don't do anything here against Honda, a character supposedly weak to zoning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siMQYIcaa4M

Akuma is good because of his vortex and safe setups. What do you get when you have Akuma with fireballs and a poor vortex? SFxT Akuma, a character that's mid-tier at best. He doesn't have the health or the SRK-ultra setups to play pure keep-away. His fireballs are merely a tool to setup a KD or sweep.

If this delayed wake-up ends up hurting the vortex then Akuma will be quite pedestrian.
 
L

Lost Fragment

Obsessed with 4chan
fspm said:
If it's -1 you eat gief's ultra for certain and have 2 frames to walk back from a jab lol. lk scissors can be spaced no doubt but they already lose to nj and focus since vanilla, just as slide. The only thing bison had was 0 on block from any distance.
Try nj seth, rog, cammy, yun etc.
Click to expand...

Yun's ex lunge is BS, I'll give you that one, but all those other characters also have reasonable counters to moves that cover a similar swath of space as scissor kicks. Punishing Cammys for throwing out random spin knuckles is the best, and that's the only move similar to scissor kicks that those characters have that isn't negative in some way or straight up punishable.
 
Kaleinc

Kaleinc

Banned
Threi said:
You can safely low meaty deejay and he cannot do anything about it.
Click to expand...
Even safely meaty ultras? I don't think so.
Threi said:
Those two characters aren't even remotely on the same level.
Click to expand...
So you are saying bison beats dj? Next thing I learn is probably guile having a bad matchup vs dictator.

stn said:
You can jump on Dee-Jay. I think people overrate his fireball because his follow-up AA normals are very prone to trading (one of the reasons why I think Honda and Zangief beat him). Yeah, you can't jump on him if he has down-charge; however, he's completely vulnerable to safe jumps and meaty setups.
Click to expand...
Good djs have that downcharge when they need it and on top of it slide is a decent AA.
Lost Fragment said:
Yun's ex lunge is BS, I'll give you that one, but all those other characters also have reasonable counters to moves that cover a similar swath of space as scissor kicks. Punishing Cammys for throwing out random spin knuckles is the best, and that's the only move similar to scissor kicks that those characters have that isn't negative in some way or straight up punishable.
Click to expand...
In cammy case I meant s. arrows. If they make scissors hit low I don't mind the move being '-' point blank. In that scenario I'm willing to space it.
 
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