The Mango Sentinel
Member
Wakeup Ultras are an issue?
I have taken almost a year off from the game, but I don't think it's changed so much that wakeup ultras are now a viable tactic
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Super Street Fighter 4 Æ |OT5| Waiting to go from Super to Ultra
- Thread starter Kadey
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Wakeup Ultras are an issue?
I have taken almost a year off from the game, but I don't think it's changed so much that wakeup ultras are now a viable tactic
sixteen-bit
Member
I remember hearing that too. I assumed it was going to be one of the dolls.
stn
Member
@fspm
Bison does beat Dee-Jay. His scissor pressure is very good, he gets free pressure on wake-up, he has good wake-up against Dee-Jay's crossups, and his U2 can punish fireballs. Good luck "zoning" him when his jump reaches half-way across the screen and tags you with a j. fierce
Bison does beat Dee-Jay. His scissor pressure is very good, he gets free pressure on wake-up, he has good wake-up against Dee-Jay's crossups, and his U2 can punish fireballs. Good luck "zoning" him when his jump reaches half-way across the screen and tags you with a j. fierce
Bison most certainly does beat deejay. And no, bison is still free to guile. If you think that the matchup is the same because they are both charge chars with fireballs then you are mistaken about how deejay works and why he's a bad char.
If a deejay relies on upkicks in the neutral game then they will get blown up for it, because they have to maintain their spacing and avoid getting pressured, and that means not being stationary. Have you ever thought about what would happen in the matchup if you...don't jump at deejay? Most characters don't have to at all (including bison), and the ones that do can usually do enough damage that the benefit of getting in outweighs the risk of getting anti aired.
Basically if you look at it like "deejay threw a jab fireball, i jumped over the jab fireball, i got anti-aired/upkicked. Therefore deejay is a good character because i cant jump in on him (in that situation)" You need realize that there more to it than that.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
You were talking about spiral arrow? That shit is like negative a million unless you space it from very, very particular spots on the screen. It's not too similar to scissor kicks in how you use it. It's not a pressure tool, it's a combo ender and sometimes a footsies tool, but mostly a combo ender. Scissor kicks is a pressure tool, combo ender, and frequently a foosties tool.
How long have you been playing this game? A lot of the things you say make it sound like you haven't been playing very long.
entremet
Member
Dolls?
CountBlack
Member
Bison bodies Deejay, fuck you talm bout bruh.
meaty short is all bison knows, and thats all Deejay hates
meaty short is all bison knows, and thats all Deejay hates
sixteen-bit
Member
like cammy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVnYmNPec7A
ooh ooh
ooh kill em'
Why is this cat smug so nice
ooh ooh
ooh kill em'
Why is this cat smug so nice
we still love doe art
Gilley said:I got a couple hours to test USF4 Guile in training mode at Super Arcade. I'll run through the list of changes and what I found out. Remember, all this stuff is subject to change!
smaller hitbox on his wakeup frames
--I noticed this with a couple crossups I was trying on him. Its very subtle, dont worry you can still cross up Guile, its just not as mindless as before.
--One thing I did test out was Evil Ryus corner unblockable on Guile(HK overhead knockdown > wiff dash > wiff dash > j.hk). It was no longer an unblockable on Guile. The strange thing is though, I had to block this like a normal jump-in(like it came from the front), even though it looks like hes behind Guile. Strange, but whatever, as long as theyre removing these retarded unblockables.
c.mk has a larger hitbox and hurtbox
I like this change. Guile has a little bit more range on c.mk and his boot no longer goes through his opponent. This feels just like the SFxT version of c.mk. This is a good buff for c.mk IMHO since the SF4 version of c.mk is one of the worst c.mks Guiles had in any game. I just wish it wasnt -4 on block.
increased airthrow range
I definitely saw a difference. The range doesnt seem as far as SF4/SSF4 where you could grab shotos out of their j.hk. I dont think this change is going to affect his throw that much though. The reason why Guiles airthrow is so good is because it starts up in 3f.
+1 invincibility on FK
Not much to say here. It definitely helps get rid of the stupid situation where FK get hit clean by jump kicks. I tested this against Sagats j.hk(which has hit me clean out of FK before) and it seemed to work better. I should probably go back and test this one a bit more, like against other DPs. Maybe against Feilongs DP to see which one will win
UDK b or f+HK up close hitbox expanded downward
I definitely saw a difference with this. I tried it against Yun with his c.lk and Chun with her c.lk. Those were two moves that came to mind when I thought about b+hk wiffing over the opponents attacks. I also tried it against Chunlis Hazanshu. You will still wiff against this move if you do b+hk too early. You have to time it properly, Chunli gets really low.
U2 350 damage
Yup, it noticed it doing a bit more. This is a much needed buff. Combofiend said they might play around with the juggle properties on U2 so that you can juggle with this better. super > U2 only doing 2 hits for U2 kinda sucks, so this could possibly be changed.
U1 Startup reduced to 5f, damage reduced to 450, 15f invincibility, will now autocorrect
I spent a lot of time testing this U1 and I think this could be Guiles best ultra now. Youll definitely have a hard time choosing which ultra you want to use. This move rocks! I was a little worried about the damage nerf, but after using it, I dont mind.
U1 Autocorrect
The best part about this ultra is that Guile will autocorrect if he does this move on wakeup. The move just doesnt start turned around the proper way. You activate it on wakeup, Guile looks like hes pointed the wrong way, then Guile goes oh wait, let me turn around then it just turns Guile around after the Ultra freeze screen. It beats all crossups on Guile. You cant cross him up when he has U1 stocked. Its so friggin good. Let me tell you the crossups I tested it on
Abel
tornado throw > forward dash > j.mk crossup
Cammy
combo to HK spiral arrow > j.lk crossup
Shotos
knockdown to crossup tatsu
Zangief
EX green hand > wiff jump forward > crossup splash
Mbison
throw > dash forward > j.mk crossup
Elfuerte
knockdown to tostada press crossup
Seth
SPD > dash forward > slight step > j.mk crossup
All these crossups results in Guiles opponent eating U1. I was able to safejump the U1 with Giefs crossup splash so you still have to watch out for that. I asked Combofiend why dont they fix his wakeup for everything and he said its too good. I disagree but whatever, its good that he has something to help him against crossups now, cause hes completely free to them right now(which really should not happen).
U1 15f invincibility
My test was to have Rufus do a EX messiah then do the delayed LK ender. In every other version of SF4, if Guile had U1, he could use it to beat the MK/HK enders, but if Rufus delayed the LK ender, it would beat out Guiles U1. This was really stupid. It doesnt happen anymore. Guiles U1 beats out the LK ender on EX messiah now. Rufus can never use EX messiah if Guile has U1 stocked(similar to Mbison having U1 stocked).
U1 5f startup
I could definitely tell its faster on startup. I didnt test any specific punishes but this will be great for those situations Im sure. One thing I heard is they might be tweaking the startup and invincibility on U1. If invincibility goes up, startup will have to increase to balance, and vice versa.
c.lp +5 on hit
This is a good buff for Guile. It doesnt make him crazy or anything, it just makes it easier to do c.lp > c.lp > c.mp > FK now. He also gets c.lp > c.lp > far s.mp and c.lp > close s.hp > SB combos. One thing I did try is to link c.lp to his U1 since U1 has 5f startup. I was unable to do this. I really dont think it works. The opponent was able to block everytime. I dont know what is going on.
Other USF4 tests
Guile f+mk
The hitbox on this seemed identical to AE2012. I was still wiffing over attacks in my testing. Oh well
Guile autocorrect
I tested this with his super and his regular FKs and they still dont autocorrect. Only his U1 does.
Red Focus
I liked what I was doing with red focus. You activate and just start absorbing a bunch of hits, then you release like a normal focus. If you release too early you can be hit out of it. I was able to do close s.hp > lvl1 red focus cancel crumple > dash forward U1 with Guile. This is just another tool he has to land his U1. Lets say you didnt have time to charge for super > U1. You can just find an opening for close s.hp or far s.hp, then dash forward and ultra them.
One thing I noticed while doing corner combos with Guile is that I would get accidental red focus cancels when I just wanted a regular focus cancel. For example..
c.mp > lp SB > focus cancel dash forward would sometime get me c.mp > lp SB > red focus cancel dash forward. This is because Guile only gets 1f to cancel his projectile unlike all the other characters who gets 2f. This means you have to be really fast to cancel the LP sonic boom to a normal focus. If the LP and the focus inputs are too close together, youll accidentally get a red focus cancel and waste 2 levels of super meter. Be on the look out for this. You might need to improve your execution so this doesnt happen.
Delayed Wakeup
No one knew how to do this, but I figured it out. It works similar to a soft knockdown situation where you want to quickstand. During any hard knockdown situation, as soon as you bounce on the ground you tap any 2 buttons. It can be lp+lk, mp+mk, lp+lk, mk+hp, whatever. What will happen is your normal wakeup will be delayed approximately 5-10f. Its not much at all, but thats all it really needs. I tested this with Ryus c.hk > j.hk safejump. When I did a delayed wakeup on the c.hk, I noticed that his safejump j.hk would just barely wiff as I was standing.
The thing that kind of bothers me is when you have to input the delayed wakeup. I would rather you be able to input it once you start seeing your opponent wiff normals to setup their safejump/unblockable/vortex or whatever. But the way its implemented, you have to input the delayed wakeup before you see any of this happen. So it essentially becomes a mind game with your opponent now, instead of something you react to in a hard knockdown situation.
Gouken
I very briefly checked out Goukens EX tatsu hitting low against Ryus c.HK. EX tatsu won and I was happy for Gouken. I also tested c.mp > lp FB and it combos on hit now. Crossup j.mk > close s.mp > c.mp > FB > FADC > c.hk worked
Hugo
Combofiend was telling me all kinds of stuff with Hugo and he sounds like hes going to be really good. Maybe even the best grappler. If he corners you, its going to be hard to get out. HK meat squasher will corner you no matter where he does it on screen.
hp clap > mp clap > EX clap > c.mk works
he has 4 overheads
far s.mk works from like ½ screen LOL
c.hk
f+hp
d,d+k(or was it mk)
He has really long range on all his attacks, especially his kicks. Hugo is just too big! Hes also going to be hard to jump over to get out of the corner.
Rolento
EX knives was cool. He throws out 3 of them, in a spread shot formation. If only 2 of them hit, he can land and still juggle you. In the corner close s.hp > EX knives > s.hp worked
s.lp hitbox doesnt look like it covers the entire baton. I dont think we want to see walk forward s.lp all day.
EX patriot circle to his qcfx2+ppp ultra worked
He could do d+mk pogo stick, then attack on the recoil ala SFxT
Hes got the take no prisoners for his U2. The zipline looks like it covers about ¾ the screen distance and is pretty quick. It looks like it will be handy against fireballers, maybe even against Guiles sonic boom. Youll probably be able to punish some blocked sweeps with this.
Elena
She felt kind of weird and Combofiend said theyre still working on her frame data so thats understandable.
The reverse DP+K(lynx tail I think?) I could do the EX version, then do Brave Dance ultra.
HCB+PP EX move is ridiculously fast. Combofiend had some kind of ambiguous setup with it where it could crossup the opponent. You can also combo after it, but the recovery animation is strange, so its hard to time your c.lk to combo after it.
She has very good dashes, both forward and backwards.
Poison
She could do EX rekkas into her DP+k
She has an ultra that kicks you in the balls LOL
I didnt play her too long, she just felt like her SFxT version.
I was able to do c.lk > close s.hp > EX FB > s.lk in the corner to my opponent. Her EX FB doesnt knock down.
Overall I liked what I saw from USF4. Im happy with the improvements Guile received, especially the U1 improvements. Some people might complain saying its too cheap, but Guile only gets 1 maybe 2 of these in a round. You can mindlessly cross him up until he gets U1, or better yet, just safejump crossup U1. I would have liked for them to fix the autocorrect with all his moves and maybe a few other things, but I know that you have to be VERY careful when balancing a character like Guile. I also would have liked to have seen something to help him deal with focus attacks a little better, like what they did with Dhalsim. Currently Guile has problems with focus attacks from some ranges. The only way he can safely deal with focus attacks is with EX SB, but that takes meter and Capcom has already said, they dont want Guile building meter like he used to.
Anyways, I might go back again on Saturday or Sunday to try out more things.
Gouken
I very briefly checked out Goukens EX tatsu hitting low against Ryus c.HK. EX tatsu won and I was happy for Gouken. I also tested c.mp > lp FB and it combos on hit now. Crossup j.mk > close s.mp > c.mp > FB > FADC > c.hk worked
Oh Happy day.....
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Gouken secret top tier
art got his soul stolen goddamn
sixteen-bit
Member
"Top 5 for sure"
It's looking the same as it is now. Using cl.st.mk as an anti air was interesting though, never seen anyone use it.
Deejay post-u2 if you have no health is so heartbreaking man. You spend an insane amount of effort trying to open up your opponent while not taking any chip damage or random specials, play as precise as possible, land the dash u2...and then realize that by doing so you ensured defeat because you can't do anything about the post-u2 situation. Doesn't matter how good of a read you have or how smart you play, the instant you land u2 you are toast. I gotta say...it really fucking sucks when it happens to you. Really, really sucks.
On to cheerier things...Cody's zoning game is underrated. Dat fake fireball. Dat delayed fireball. Dat back strong. Dat slide. Dat RH ruffian kick.
On to cheerier things...Cody's zoning game is underrated. Dat fake fireball. Dat delayed fireball. Dat back strong. Dat slide. Dat RH ruffian kick.
sf2fanatic
Member
Went out shopping, saw the 360's.. Almost tempted to buy one just to see how AE is on gameplay. I'm tired of the lagging on PS3. Getting bodied by lower level players...
Passive Assassin
Member
PC AE 2012 was on sale on GMG for 9 bucks.
I hope you mean online.
CountBlack
Member
And Capcom did NOTHING to fix it.
All a ninja asking is to take away the stupid fuckin wallbounce after it, WHY is there a wallbounce? WHY
They gave Ken Ryu's walkspeed
I would've been happy with Fei Long's walk speed, Ryu's walk speed is fantastic, especially when combined with his stepkick which is now -1 on block to boot.
The guy testing Ken @ Super arcade reckons that his b+mk overhead is slower now, doesn't really matter since it's not really an overhead you react to anyway.
I would've been happy with Fei Long's walk speed, Ryu's walk speed is fantastic, especially when combined with his stepkick which is now -1 on block to boot.
The guy testing Ken @ Super arcade reckons that his b+mk overhead is slower now, doesn't really matter since it's not really an overhead you react to anyway.
I assumed the hitbox on it was extended upwards ergo his zoning looks strong.
But if you're saying that its the same now I'll have to remember to incorporate that if I play ssf4 again.
What situations would you use it though? Crouching fierce and cl.st.hk cover a lot of ranges already. At certain ranges you can also do far roundhouse if an opponent goes for a crossup in the neutral and punish as you go underneath them.
I'll go into training mode now and see what situations I can use cl.st.mk as an anti air and maybe recreate what I saw in the vid
Edit: only works on empty jumps or delayed attacks. In the vid, the gouken player got a CH due to a very delayed jump in attack.
Well the funniest part is they did "fix" it...by about one frame. So...basically the problem with it wasn't really addressed at all, but they did get to pad the buff list for him again.
"Oh yeah he is getting a TON of buffs and will be a totally new character in this new version, please look forward to it". And then you get a laundry list of buffs, which wind up amounting to very little as none of them actually address his core weaknesses (or do so little to them that it's basically irrelevant), people who don't know much about the character see this long list and call deejay players ungrateful and whiny for wanting more, everyone tries him for a week in the new version and realizes he is still the same garbage character and go back to their tried and true/latch onto the new "hot" char. Then a new version gets announced. Rinse and repeat.
Passive Assassin
Member
daigoat.
Rice-Eater
Member
Go rep low tier then, my boy Evil Ryu is headed to the top and anybody who wants to join us can. 10 Evil Ryu's in EVO top 32, RETSU DO THIS.
sf2fanatic
Member
Yeah sorry for not stating the online part. I'll play a couple of matches, even on training stage lags bad. So I'll end up playing arcade mode to practice on characters..
Huw_Dawson
Member
Two cool things about Ultra.
1) The announcer has lots of new lines. He is much more noticeable now.
2) PRESS-BUTTON-TO-BIND button mapping screens. Oh my goodness.
1) The announcer has lots of new lines. He is much more noticeable now.
2) PRESS-BUTTON-TO-BIND button mapping screens. Oh my goodness.
90% of the time they'll just go for combo checks anyway so no difference lol.
EDIT -
Also for Ultra I hope they come to their senses and give Akuma and Gouken back their themes instead of that lame ass Ryu remix. Saving actually good themes for single player bosses in a game that is multiplayer focused is ass backwards.
PP is actually a better indicator of skill than BP.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Hmm it doesn't look that crowded.....I feel like I should drive down there. The only reason I didn't go was because I figured it would be packed.
Karsticles
Member
Two questions:
1) What are the best Oni resources out there?
2) Are there any other characters in the game with aerial movement aside from Oni? I mean non-divekick moves that can be performed after you jump into the air. Fireballs (Akuma, Ibuki) also do not count.
1) What are the best Oni resources out there?
2) Are there any other characters in the game with aerial movement aside from Oni? I mean non-divekick moves that can be performed after you jump into the air. Fireballs (Akuma, Ibuki) also do not count.
1. This video was helpful when I tried learning Oni. You could just search for Oni safe jumps on youtube too. There's nothing else that really comes to mind. Maybe look at match vids with Combofiend, Chris Hu and Wao.
2. Characters with tatsus, Viper's burn kick, T.hawk's dive, Dhalsim's teleport. There may be others but nothing like Oni where you can completely change your jump trajectory. That move isn't too useful though.
I've been waiting so long...
Always came back to Gouken, no matter how frustrated I got. Seems like I can finally enjoy playing him without needing to shop around.
Is he still god awful on wakeup?
Goukens wake up was never awful. Gouken has a lot of options but the hard part was knowing what to do on wake up. Between blocking, counter, ex tatsu and ex demon flip, he has an answer to every situation. He doesn't have something simple like dp into fadc but he has the tools.
In the new version, he's able to fadc ex tatsu against crouchers. IMO, it wasn't necessary but a lot of people wanted it.
Kaleinc
Banned
I don't think so. Fireball, cr MK knocks down, upkicks - good antiair as well as slide, kneeshot.
See above.
Try nj s.arrows (it all started with how nj destroys scissors) - good luck. And don't forget all the shit cammy has besides.
And finally - I played enough, too much wasted time on this game
I don't quite get it either, along with the back throw range nerf and ultra damage nerf. But with the ex Fuki buff, j.Mk being a legit cross up and ex oroshi being throw invincible ill deal.
I'm glad they've taken out some of the ex Fuki buffs though. Jump cancel on block would've been way too much icing on the cake. They also confirmed it doesn't hit behind the opponent, which would've been insane for resets.
Adon and Makoto's air kick work for that.
And that is why you think deejay beats bison? With his dashes and aerial mobility bison has no reason to put himself in a situation where he would be anti-aired. And besides, it's not too difficult for the majority of the cast to AA him, he has an extremely high jump. Bison can currently harass DeeJay on the ground (where he should be). He never has to actually take a knee shot, he can teleport away (and deejay cannot punish it). You need to re-evaluate really how difficult it is to get in on deejay. There is no threat of guile fierces in your face, you can focus-dash your way in to close space. Compared to the difficulty deejay has in escaping scissor pressure once bison is in (basically he has to make a guess on the bison player's habits post-scissors; guess wrong and it's right back to square one). And then you mention slide as if its something that can be thrown out easily. Its very punishable on block, very slow and even as an anti-air it's risky as it can be avoided by empty jumping (trip guard). It's slightly more difficult to time with bison because of his high jump, but it can be done. And once again that's not even a necessary approach.
Basically have played this matchup from both sides (bison used to ne my main): i can tell you that you think you have it hard, but deejay has it a lot harder in that matchup.
Also: although i personally wouldn't go for it too much in the match, bison's crossup jump forward is actually rather difficult for deejay to upkick due to the angle at which it hits. It requires different timing than normal, and if not timed right the antiair will be stuffed (lk and mk) or whiff (ex).
stn
Member
I mean, I've played a lot of Dee-Jay and I have a really hard time with Bison. He can easily navigate your zoning by jumping over or just dashing forward, which happens to be really quick. Dee-Jay's AA normals (st. fierece, st. mp, etc...) are also more prone to trading. This isn't like ST where you can easily AA after a fireball (I also happen to play ST Dee-Jay regularly on GGPO, the difference is staggering).
Jumps are ridiculously effective in this game in terms of getting you within footsie range, and from there its anyone's game. And especially with Dee-Jay, he takes a risk every time he throws a fireball because he loses charge. For you to be able to space a fireball > slide (to get charge) > AA upkick against Bison would mean you can only zone him that way when he's about 3/4 of the screen. Once he passes that point, good luck keeping him out with his insane walk speed. He also has good anti-fireball tools once he has meter or ultra (EX PC and SK).
Beyond that? Well, Bison has some of the best wake-up options in the game. Once he gets in? cr. lk x 1000 into scissor kicks. Once he knocks you down? Oh, free wake-up pressure with cr. lk. If you have meter you have some better options but he definitely has more options than Dee-Jay.
IMO? 6-4 Bison.
Jumps are ridiculously effective in this game in terms of getting you within footsie range, and from there its anyone's game. And especially with Dee-Jay, he takes a risk every time he throws a fireball because he loses charge. For you to be able to space a fireball > slide (to get charge) > AA upkick against Bison would mean you can only zone him that way when he's about 3/4 of the screen. Once he passes that point, good luck keeping him out with his insane walk speed. He also has good anti-fireball tools once he has meter or ultra (EX PC and SK).
Beyond that? Well, Bison has some of the best wake-up options in the game. Once he gets in? cr. lk x 1000 into scissor kicks. Once he knocks you down? Oh, free wake-up pressure with cr. lk. If you have meter you have some better options but he definitely has more options than Dee-Jay.
IMO? 6-4 Bison.
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