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[Threi]

yeah low forward is a little slow for that, and due to ex sobat's hitbox if you use an extremely low strike it can go over it.

Just because i say deejay is free to low meaties doesn't mean he's free to every low meaty. You can't meaty sweep him or nothing like that.It's with regards to what normals are sensibly used as meaties.

Funny thing about sakura though: her low fierce should be able to stuff everything deejay can put out. Try using that as a meaty. DBJ has used it as a meaty on me and it has stuffed every reversal attempt numerous times.

 

[Kimosabae]

Going by this logic everyone has good wakeup options. But that isnt the case at all, its all relative.

Yeah, relative to other FGs, not comparing the variables in just one. One might find such a comparison unimportant, but I don't - I find it provides a valuable perspective on how forgiving wakeup situations actually are in this game. I find that makes me a more discerning and better player.


Not gonna pursue this line of discourse further because I've seen how ugly it gets.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Not gonna pursue this line of discourse further because I've seen how ugly it gets.

Thats fine. I think my having actually played gouken seriously as well as many other characters gives me perspective within this series. I dont think comparing other fg's wakeup is unimportant, but since this game is largely predicated on setups and vortices, I find it pointless or odd at the very least. Blocking is a great universal option, but not all wakeups are created equal. God forbid I have seth in my face on wakeup and he has full meter and wants to play rock paper scissors best 3/5 because he has meter and he's seth, puts me down uses tandem and forces me to block an unblockable (dat paradox). Telling gouken players the best option is to block just seems....redundant if the player is worth his salt.

/2 cents

 

[Kaleinc]

Only wakeup option bison has that can be meatied is ex pc though...teleport gets you away (unless in the corner), committing to a meaty means you can't reaction punish teleport. Then you have ex devil's reverse (slightly risky), ex scissors (very risky), ex headstomp (unsafe), and a good backdash. For a player wanting to capatalize on knockdown that is a lot to look out for.

Can be safely meatied means the attacker is out of danger to be tagged so warp is no exception. I also don't know why you give ex scissors preferential treatment as this special is meatied risk free same as ex crusher and any bison's option.

Gouken can not make counter or ex demonflip safe with FADC

How do you imagine fadc-ing demonflip?

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Can be safely meatied means the attacker is out of danger to be tagged so warp is no exception. I also don't know why you give ex scissors preferential treatment as this special is meatied risk free same as ex crusher and any bison's option.

How do you imagine fadc-ing demonflip?

I don't

 

[Threi]

Can be safely meatied means the attacker is out of danger to be tagged so warp is no exception. I also don't know why you give ex scissors preferential treatment as this special is meatied risk free same as ex crusher and any bison's option.

Yeah you're right, ex pc is just as good as ex scissors is. Both are fully invincible right until the first active frame. Ex scissors however is unthrowable.

Teleport is most definitely a safe option outside of two circumstances: the opponent is expecting it, or it is being option selected (which is essentially the first option) even though it has slower recovery than other teleports it is not something that can be reacted to for free. And, once again, not every char can OS multiple wakeup options. The majority can't feasibly pull it off.

 

[Rice-Eater]

Can be safely meatied means the attacker is out of danger to be tagged so warp is no exception. I also don't know why you give ex scissors preferential treatment as this special is meatied risk free same as ex crusher and any bison's option.

The point of us saying Bison has good wake up is because you can never reliably hit your set ups or even put him in block stun. He will always get away or put you in a guessing game where you will probably end up getting nothing out of it. Sure he blows meter, but he has absolutely no problem blowing that meter because he's not blocking for anybody. You can OS certain options, but the wrong OS can end up getting you punished.

Immortal, I don't know what you're doing to pressure Gouken safely in mirror matches but I find it frustrating to play that guessing game with them because I'm not always in a advantageous position. At least against the likes of Ryu, Sagat or Cody their are certain things I can do that will always work and I can condition them into not trying to reversal. Against the likes of Gouken players, I can never get them to block and will be forced to roll the dice with them almost every time I score a hard knockdown.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

The point of us saying Bison has good wake up is because you can never reliably hit your set ups or even put him in block stun. He will always get away or put you in a guessing game where you will probably end up getting nothing out of it. Sure he blows meter, but he has absolutely no problem blowing that meter because he's not blocking for anybody. You can OS certain options, but the wrong OS can end up getting you punished.

Immortal, I don't know what you're doing to pressure Gouken safely in mirror matches but I find it frustrating to play that guessing game with them because I'm not always in a advantageous position. At least against the likes of Ryu, Sagat or Cody their are certain things I can do that will always work and I can condition them into not trying to reversal. Against the likes of Gouken players, I can never get them to block and will be forced to roll the dice with them almost every time I score a hard knockdown.

I knock them down and frustrate them with throws, condition them to do what goukens like to do, frame trap, leave gaps to make them know you respect counter and make them apprehensive about willy nilly counters, and throw them over and over for their troubles. I stay in goukens grill since he's not very good up close. For what it's worth I think most gouken players are trash.

Also I've been playing more dudley lately, though I'm not very good with him, I just find him more fun. So my experience isn't from just mirror matches(which I'm not particularly fond of). Maybe it's just the mirror you're curious about?

 

[Rice-Eater]

Maybe it's just the mirror you're curious about?

No, I just asked you about the mirror because I know you play Gouken so I figured that's the most experience you have against Gouken. I just played a very long session against my friend again. We did a lot of Gouken vs Evil Ryu matches. And once again when he scored knockdowns against me he had me on lockdown. When I had him, I had to make guesses and sometimes I got him, sometimes he got me.

I noticed you mentioned going for throws and leaving gaps and such, but when he gets a good read on me he'll simply backdash because he knows I'm trying bait him to do something. Like Threi said, simply knowing that your opponent is afraid of your options could get you out scot free. If I did a meaty throw he might EX tatsu that or he might EX demon flip my meaty jab which I OS into sweep so nothing is guaranteed or safe.

So this is why I find Gouken's wake up options to be better than all the other guys out there who only have their invincible reversal and backdash to rely on. When Gouken's scores a hard knockdown he can demon flip dive kick all he wants and just laughs at Ryu's trying to reversal him. In a mirror he has to worry about what the other Gouken might do to try and escape.

I mean of course he can't mash DP inbetween block strings, but when it comes to only the waking up part I think Gouken is actually OK in that department. Do you agree or disagree with my assessment?

 

[Kadey]

Anybody wants to play?

 

[Rice-Eater]

Latest USF4 changes

http://www.capcom-unity.com/combofiend/blog/2014/01/30/ultra-street-fighter-4-change-list

For my character, Evil Ryu, it looks like they removed his light tatsu buff and nerf. Before they gave it more forward movement so it could hit from farther away and reduced the float time on hit. I assume that was to prevent him from being able to tatsu > sweep so many characters but it looks like that's back. Everything else looks the same. If this is the final list then I'm quite satisfied with the changes to my character although I don't agree with everything. I expect Threi in here pretty soon to express his...well less than favorable opinion of what they've done with DJ so far lol.

Their also seems to be a universal nerf for characters with invincible reversals. Every DP, FADC seems to be -5 on hit now. Besides that EX focus is now 3 bars, which is a much better idea than 4 from before. That was just too expensive, this is just perfect IMO.

 

[Schuhu]

Red Focus

Performed by pressing light punch + middle punch + middle kick

EX Red Focus

Performed by pressing light punch + middle punch + middle kick

hue?

Also seems like they gave Ibuki's neckbreaker the hard knockdown back.

 

[Rice-Eater]

hue?

Also seems like they gave Ibuki's neckbreaker the hard knockdown back.

Their not the same thing.

Red Focus: Basically a powered up focus attack that can absorb a infinite number of hits besides focus breaking moves.

EX Red Focus: Used for canceling moves. Level 1 will crumple unlike any other focus attacks level 1(including a raw red focus). So if you play Ryu you can cancel your stand fierce with EX focus and crumple your opponent with only a level 1 hit and follow that up with Ultra or whatever.

 

[MIMIC]

Latest USF4 changes

http://www.capcom-unity.com/combofiend/blog/2014/01/30/ultra-street-fighter-4-change-list

OMFG! El Fuerte's changes are AMAZING! Not a single nerf and mostly buffs! ^_^

(but I hear his corpse hop was removed....something I abuse. Oh well, I mostly used it to kill charge with charge characters. You can still do it with tortilla)

 

[alstein]

I'm worried Red Focus could end up destroying wakeup games too much. The meter loss is a risk, but Red/EX Red might lead to much more than special/EX move FADC. We might see folks start throwing on wakeup more or throwing armor breaks if they got a safe one.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Rufus:

Forward Throw: Damage reduced (150->135)
Far standing middle punch: Now special, super, ex focus/red focus cancellable
Far standing middle kick: active longer (1F->2F)
Target Combo: Disadvantage on block increased (-5F->-8F)
EX Messiah Kick: Second hit adjusted to hit crouching opponents more consistently
EX Messiah Kick: Invincibility reduced (16F->13F)
Light Messiah Kick: Can hit opponents in float state
Messiah Kick Medium follow up: Recovery increased (19F->22F)
Messiah Kick Heavy follow up: Recovery increased (17F->19F)
Spectacle Romance: Hitbox on the 2nd attack expanded
Space Opera Symphony: Damage reduced (460->420)
Big Bang Typhoon: Damage reduced (420->360)
Big Bang Typhoon: Ultra locks on to airborne opponents resulting in full hits

I still think that it should be a throw OR ultra damage reduction, but not both.

Getting punished more for doing stuff that is already pretty gimmicky to throw out (the Messiah followups, TC) is fine by me. The invincibility nerf on Messiah is going to sting but it's not critical. He's going to be very good in W mode. He got a major buff to far st.mp, and a minor buff to far st.mk, which represent two thirds of his poking toolset.

I'll probably still get bopped by shotos though.

 

[ScOULaris]

LP + MP + MK = Red Focus? What the-? That just seems like it would be awkward for my fingers. Why not MP + MK + HP (Fierce)? That would be much easier and more comfortable to use, I think.

 

[USD]

Dee Jay's EX Machine Gun Upper start-up is now 6F! Everything's okay now!

 

[USD]

Latest USF4 changes

http://www.capcom-unity.com/combofiend/blog/2014/01/30/ultra-street-fighter-4-change-list

For my character, Evil Ryu, it looks like they removed his light tatsu buff and nerf. Before they gave it more forward movement so it could hit from farther away and reduced the float time on hit. I assume that was to prevent him from being able to tatsu > sweep so many characters but it looks like that's back. Everything else looks the same. If this is the final list then I'm quite satisfied with the changes to my character although I don't agree with everything. I expect Threi in here pretty soon to express his...well less than favorable opinion of what they've done with DJ so far lol.

Their also seems to be a universal nerf for characters with invincible reversals. Every DP, FADC seems to be -5 on hit now. Besides that EX focus is now 3 bars, which is a much better idea than 4 from before. That was just too expensive, this is just perfect IMO.

The L Tatsumaki change (both the increased distance and lower float) is still listed on the JP site. They also list Evil Ryu's L/M/H Shoryu FADC forward as -4, where for all the other applicable characters it's -5. Not sure if it's a typo.

Also, Dan escaped the Shoryu FADC nerf...

Spoiler

Everyone play Dan. Or burn 3 bars for EX Shoryu. lol.

 

[Kaleinc]

The point of us saying Bison has good wake up is because you can never reliably hit your set ups or even put him in block stun. He will always get away or put you in a guessing game where you will probably end up getting nothing out of it. Sure he blows meter, but he has absolutely no problem blowing that meter because he's not blocking for anybody. You can OS certain options, but the wrong OS can end up getting you punished.

His wake up is good but presents no risk to the opponent. dp fadc ultra anyone? And what happens when bison has no meter, free lol.

Latest USF4 changes

dp fadc forward -5 - sweeeet

 

[Mœbius]

Dudley

Standing hard punch: Hitbox extended downward
Standing hard kick: counter hit pushes the opponent back less
Crouching light punch: hits from further out
Crouching light punch: the ability to chain crouching light punch into standing 6+light punch has been removed
Crouching middle kick: starts up faster (8F->7F)
6+Middle kick: hits from further out
6+Heavy punch: opponents are knocked down when hit out the air
Target Combos: damage increased for all combos (by 10)
Target Combo 1: block damage from second hit has been removed
Rose: Causes damage (0->1)
Rose: Advantage on hit increased (6F->13F)
Light machine gun blow: Disadvantage when block reduced (-2F->-1F)
Heavy machine gun blow: Pushback on hit reduced
Light/Medium/Heavy Shortswing Blow: Throw invincible throughout attack
EX Shortswing Blow: Throw invincible until first hit

Oh yeeeeah.

 

[Threi]

Woah @ ex mgu startup...that may actually help him out. He may actually have a viable reversal now (it will trade more instead of being stuffed, no more free c.lk when close to him)

Imo this has been the only change since c.lk startup to actually address his issues.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

-5 on dp fadc blocked for most

Fuck yea

 

[Hitokage]

Dirty Bull: Command has been changed (63214×2+PPP->720+PPP)
Dirty Bull: Recovery has been reduced when it does not connect (58F->48F)
Dirty Bull: Reach has been extended (1.09->1.3)
Dirty Bull: Damage has been reduced (399->250)

Wha?

 

[Passive Assassin]

LP + MP + MK = Red Focus? What the-? That just seems like it would be awkward for my fingers. Why not MP + MK + HP (Fierce)? That would be much easier and more comfortable to use, I think.

yeah it's pretty weird for most people, but since i play sliding style with my middle finger on the jab button instead of index finger, it feels right.

Ibuki

Guard: El Fuerte bug that resulted her in not being able to block his 6+MK has been fixed
Crouching light punch: Start up increased (4F->3F)
Target Combo 4: Hitbox extended downward on second hit to hit crouching opponents more consistently
Hammer Kick: Hitbox extended downward to hit crouching opponents more consistently
Hammer Kick: Advantage on block reduced (3F->2F)
Backhand Punch: Second hit can be focus canceled with specials, high jump, focus attacks, red focus attacks
Tsujigoe: Recovery removed
Light, Medium, Heavy, EX Tsumuji: Hitbox extended downward to hit crouching opponents better
Medium Tsumuji: Recovery increased (3F->4F)
EX Kazegiri: Invincibility increased (6F->7F)
EX Kazegiri: Hitbox increased to hit airborne character more consistently (on frames 2~3)

looks like mostly fixes and unnerfs if combofiend took out the neckbreakers being soft knockdown. the dp buff is good since her wakeup options were pretty ass. i still don't get the f. fierce sjc. i rarely see that move unless it's to catch backdashers or focus breakers.

 

[Hitokage]

LP + MP + MK = Red Focus? What the-? That just seems like it would be awkward for my fingers. Why not MP + MK + HP (Fierce)? That would be much easier and more comfortable to use, I think.

It's supposed to be a bit awkward, because you don't want to hit HP on a dp then hit MP+MK too soon and get ex red focus instead of ex regular focus. SF4 has enough accidental inputs as it is.

 

[vas_a_morir]

yeah it's pretty weird for most people, but since i play sliding style with my middle finger on the jab button instead of index finger, it feels right.



looks like mostly fixes and unnerfs if combofiend took out the neckbreakers being soft knockdown. the dp buff is good since her wakeup options were pretty ass. i still don't get the f. fierce sjc. i rarely see that move unless it's to catch backdashers or focus breakers.

I'm glad, because I am putting hours into developing the kubiori as a lynchpin of my ibuki game. And without okizeme options, she is pretty underwhelming. Seems like tsujigoe could have more use with recovery reduced 6 frames. As it stands now, it's pretty much useless.

 

[Relix]

I am not playing much these days but...

Chun-Li

Vitality: Life increased (900->950)
Rear Spin Kick: Attack starts up faster and has received a hitbox improvement (12F->10F)
Yosokyaku (headstomps): Hitbox increased
Light/Medium/Heavy Spinning Bird Kick: Last hit causes a knockdown
EX Kikoken: Knocks down on hit
EX Spinning Bird Kick: Hitbox on the last attack improved to hit more characters
EX Spinning Bird Kick: Hitbox increased on first attack to hit crouching opponents
EX Hazanshu: Armor break effect added
Kikousho: Invincibility when the attack begins has been extended (8F->9F)
Kikousho: Damage increased (330->365)

Aleluyah

 

[El Sloth]

Rose doing more damage on her bnbs and more stun. Nice. Her fireballs coming out a tiny bit faster is nice.

EX Fukiage: Can now hit standing opponents
EX Fukiage: Now jump cancellable
EX Fukiage: Damage decreased (120->80)
EX Fukiage: Stun damage decreased (200->100)

The Mak storm is coming.

 

[vas_a_morir]

I am not playing much these days but...



Aleluyah

Her jump is much faster, too.

 

[Threi]

I think they reverted that change (thankfully)

 

[jlai]

Red Focus
Performed by pressing light punch + middle punch + middle kick

rip 4 button throw tech/focus backdash

 

[vas_a_morir]

I think they reverted that change (thankfully)

The jump? Combofiend was so excited about it, I thought for sure it was here to stay. The only thing I could imagine is Chun players were complaining about it.

 

[K.Sabot]

The fuck happened to EX Oroshi being throw invuln?

 

[notworksafe]

Hm looks like j.faps does knockdown again with Juri, but the rest of her shitty nerfs are still in. Womp womp.

Also no EX Greenhand knockdown for Gief again. Womp womp x2.

Whatever. Cammy seems the same as before. I can live with that.

 

[Rice-Eater]

The L Tatsumaki change (both the increased distance and lower float) is still listed on the JP site. They also list Evil Ryu's L/M/H Shoryu FADC forward as -4, where for all the other applicable characters it's -5. Not sure if it's a typo.

Also, Dan escaped the Shoryu FADC nerf...

Spoiler

Everyone play Dan. Or burn 3 bars for EX Shoryu. lol.

I saw that last night before I went to sleep. I noticed Evil Ryu had a few more things listed and that something was -4 instead of -5. Thanks for clearing that up USD. That actually means he made it out a little worse than I thought but still good overall. No tatsu > sweep against the same characters as Akuma but at least he still has the light tatsu buff and is 1 less frame negative after DP, FADC compared to everybody else. Still unsafe though so it's not something I would attempt much if at all anymore.

 

[Threi]

I expect Threi in here pretty soon to express his...well less than favorable opinion of what they've done with DJ so far lol.

I'm not actively trying to shit on every buff capcom gives deejay as some veiled attempt to justify him being low tier or anything. I feel i need to cut that off from the offset right now.

it's just that prior to this ex mgu buff it's all been tweaks that don't address his core weaknesses, and they essentially ignored what deejay players have been asking for in favor of some parlor tricks that are useless to him. Thus the complaints from not just me but every single deejay player.

but now with the much faster startup on ex mgu its seems like they are actually starting to address some issues here, and I personally am happy with that buff. Yes, he still needs much much more to hang with the best of them, but that isn't really what most deejay players ask for. Just closing up some gaping weaknesses that are exploitable by the entire cast is good enough, and can potentially push him into lower-mid to mid tier, which is fine by me.

 

[Kimosabae]

I'm not actively trying to shit on every buff capcom gives deejay as some veiled attempt to justify him being low tier or anything. I feel i need to cut that off from the offset right now.

Yeah, this preemptive strike doesn't work for me.

it's just that prior to this ex mgu buff it's all been tweaks that don't address his core weaknesses

I've seen this stated numerous times (not just by you, mind) - could you please delineate these "core" weaknesses for me? I'm sure you've made an extensive post on the subject in the past that I probably missed, so if you don't want to feel pressured into repeating yourself, a simple link to said post will suffice.

 

[Threi]

His biggest weakness was simple: on knockdown he has no option but to block. This is in addition to his poor close range normals. Not really just on knockdown but in general he is more susceptible to pressure more than most chars. This is not due to him having no "get off me" move but more due to the design and speed of his normals.

Although this is expected from a defensive-based character, his defensive tools aren't as good as they should be (situational, risky, low damaging). I could go into specifics about each of his normals one by one, their uses, positioning and gameplan one by one if you request but to put it simply what winds up happening is you start with a char that can't pressure too well (is rather unsafe on blockstrings), can zone acceptably (but you have to be extremely precise with your choices a-la dhalsim but without the stretchy limbs), and when you are on your back your options are limited (understandably). However, the difference here is continued pressure, even on block, is very dangerous to deal with as deejay. You run the risk of getting counter hit at almost all times (due to slow normals with generally poor hitboxes) and put in the same situation again. He is essentially a character with a lot of minor to moderate weaknesses, but without the true strengths to balance it out.

I did make a post here about what i wanted out of capcom for USF4, and with this ex mgu buff they are all almost given.

 

[Space Runaway]

I like EX Fukiage being able to hit standing opponents but Makoto's nerfs really suck. Not to mention, did she really need to be even more free after a whiffed Karakusa?

The fuck happened to EX Oroshi being throw invuln?

Seriously. QQ

 

[Kimosabae]

His biggest weakness was simple: on knockdown he has no option but to block. This is in addition to his poor close range normals. Not really just on knockdown but in general he is more susceptible to pressure more than most chars. This is not due to him having no "get off me" move but more due to the design and speed of his normals.

Although this is expected from a defensive-based character, his defensive tools aren't as good as they should be (situational, risky, low damaging).

So a 3-4 frame crouching normal would alleviate this problem without "breaking" his design as a character?

 

[Threi]

So a 3-4 frame crouching normal would alleviate this problem with "breaking" his design as a character?

That is what I am struggling to come to terms with. I am not exactly sure what capcom has designed this character to play as. He has evolved into a bit of a hit and run style due to his shortcomings, but its not something thats clear currently. Is he a footsie-based char, offensive, or defensive? He can kinda to all 3...to an extent, but doesn't excel in any of them (and by excel i don't mean best in the cast, but I mean being able to reliably employ that general strategy against the majority of the cast)

Put it this way: Guile can be Guile better than Deejay can be Guile. However, Guile is also better at being DeeJay than DeeJay is at being DeeJay.

 

[xCobalt]

I'm surprised they're making Gouken's ex tatsu have a wider hitbox. I wonder if i can catch people throwing fireballs from full screen now.

 

[jlai]

I like EX Fukiage being able to hit standing opponents but Makoto's nerfs really suck. Not to mention, did she really need to be even more free after a whiffed Karakusa?

The recovery was already so bad to begin with 4 extra frames isn't going to make a huge difference. You'd get punished the same regardless

 

[Space Runaway]

The recovery was already so bad to begin with 4 extra frames isn't going to make a huge difference. You'd get punished the same regardless

That's why I'm wondering why they bothered adding more frames.

 

[direct_quote]

*Covers his eyes when reading Seth changes.
Oh well rip Seth, think I'll pick up Yang, Guy, or Evil Ryu in USF4. I do feel sorry for Cammy and Fei-Long mainers though.

 

[Marz]

*Covers his eyes when reading Seth changes.
Oh well rip Seth, think I'll pick up Yang, Guy, or Evil Ryu in USF4. I do feel sorry for Cammy and Fei-Long mainers though.

Seth will still be good, he'll just play differently.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Tempted to put some time into Cammy to expand my stable outside of Oni/Juri is it worth it?

 

[USD]

Tempted to put some time into Cammy to expand my stable outside of Oni/Juri is it worth it?

I think she's a lot of fun, powerful but with some challenging aspects. Get it in now to enjoy her at full power, while it lasts!

 

[Kaleinc]

Chun Li and Ken too stronk, someone wants to run back 3s moment real bad.