It's a good mix-up, it's just a matter of timing. If you go for empty jump low with safe jump timing (or later), there's a possibility that you can be thrown. Empty jump in a little faster than safe jump timing (so that if you did do a jump attack, it would just whiff because the opponent hasn't fully risen from the ground) and empty jump low should work against a throw attempt, as long as you don't do it too early.
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Super Street Fighter 4 Æ |OT5| Waiting to go from Super to Ultra
- Thread starter Kadey
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It's a good mix-up, it's just a matter of timing. If you go for empty jump low with safe jump timing (or later), there's a possibility that you can be thrown. Empty jump in a little faster than safe jump timing (so that if you did do a jump attack, it would just whiff because the opponent hasn't fully risen from the ground) and empty jump low should work against a throw attempt, as long as you don't do it too early.
Hey all.
I know I'm lttp, but how about that Chris G vs. Pad-kan match in Tennessee? Whooo...
Anyway, I wondered if I could get some advice on Gouken vs. Boxer/Cammy/Fei/Twins.
I finally found a couple of SF4 players really local to me, and I'm over the moon about it. Just in time to train for Ultra. However, they use characters who I've always found troublesome for Gouks, and I'd like to make a good first impression!
If anyone has tips on the above matchups, that'd be grand.
Also, which pros (pro?) are rocking the old bastard these days? I used to follow Infiltration and Bullcat, but I'm under the impression they've both moved on. Would love to check some vids. Cheers.
I know I'm lttp, but how about that Chris G vs. Pad-kan match in Tennessee? Whooo...
Anyway, I wondered if I could get some advice on Gouken vs. Boxer/Cammy/Fei/Twins.
I finally found a couple of SF4 players really local to me, and I'm over the moon about it. Just in time to train for Ultra. However, they use characters who I've always found troublesome for Gouks, and I'd like to make a good first impression!
If anyone has tips on the above matchups, that'd be grand.
Also, which pros (pro?) are rocking the old bastard these days? I used to follow Infiltration and Bullcat, but I'm under the impression they've both moved on. Would love to check some vids. Cheers.
I don't have the most match up knowledge but i'll offer you a bit of advice that has worked well for me.
Balrog:
You really have to make good use of your long reaching normals to keep him out. Gouken's standing roundhouse is relatively fast and is pretty good at whiff punishing or stuffing attacks. Crouching mp is pretty good too but try to vary how often you cancel into fireball. Remember to space your fireballs so that you can react with ex tatsu if he does the turn around punch. Finally, he has a rather weird hitbox on wakeup/crouching so if you manage to get a knockdown, try to apply some demon flip pressure. I find that Balrog is a bit more susceptible to cross up dive kick than other characters. If you're more comfortable fighting him from afar, then just create some more distance.
Cammy
Probably gouken's worst matchup. For the first couple of games, test your opponent and see if they get hit by your cr.mk crouch tech. A good cammy will be able to space the ex cannon strike to avoid the crouch tech and get a lot of damage off. You'll have to resort to using ex tatsu to anti air the dive kick (using normals to anti air will not work). A preemptive jump mp works too but you need to make the correct read. If you're in a bad situation, just take the throw if you can. It's better than her landing a counter hit. Also, do not ex demon flip on wakeup. Her dp will beat it out since it has so many active frames. I put a bit more emphasis on low counter for this matchup. It beats out cr.lp, cr.lk and cr.mp. Works pretty well if the cammy player tries to meaty you with one of those buttons.
That's about it. I have a lot of trouble against the twins so I haven't really figured out the best thing to do. I know you can jab them out of their dive kicks rather easily. Against yun, you can punish his shoulder with super. I haven't fought a good fei before but its pretty easy to zone him out. Know the spacing of all your good antiairs (cr.hp, st.hp, cl.st.hk). If you have trouble knowing which one to use, then resort to ex tatsu. Some goukens like to use cr.mk as an antiair but I feel like its situational and your other antiairs will cover the same area.
I haven't watched any Gouken players lately. I feel like their playstyle is really erratic and have a lot of gimmicks. Check out this youtube channel though. It has a lot of gouken tech.
Awesome, thank you. Never heard of either of them, so will definitely take a look!
Thanks a bunch for the speedy and detailed response. I've bolded one part I didn't understand about the crouch teching, so if you could elaborate that'd be a big help. The rest is clear as day. I will do my best to fly the old man flag high!
Crouch teching with cr.mk (cr.lp + cr.lk + cr.mk) beats instant air dive kick. It's useful against Cammy and Rufus. If you were to crouch tech normally, you would most likely get counter hit out of it which can be really bad for you. Crouching mk, comes out fast enough and at a high enough angle to stuff the dive kick. However, your opponent can delay the dive kick and your cr.mk will whiff since it has very little horizontal range. Once your opponent starts delaying their dive kick, this opens up a small window for you to do either jumping mp or ex tatsu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p2QAu8BrAA
Here's a vid I quickly found on youtube. Different characters but the same situation.
Rice-Eater
Member
We all know about EX red focus can create new combos. It provides a way for just about every character to combo into Ultra off a move with a lot of hit stun, like a heavy attack. Some character like Ryu can combo into their heavy attack, but the guys who'll have the easiest time are the guys who have a special that doesn't knockdown nor does it have a lot of push back. This is what I found off the top of my head
Evil Ryu: cr. MK, LK axe kick, EX red focus, Ultra 2 = 469 damage
Yun: cr. MK, LP shoulder, EX red focus, Ultra 1, HP lunge = 457 damage
Yang: cr. MK, LP slash, EX red focus, Ultra 1 = 394
Oni: MP, LK slash, EX red focus, Ultra 2 = 499 damage
Viper: cr. MK, MP knuckle, EX red focus, Ultra 2 = 455 damage
Makoto: cr. MP, LP dash punch, EX red focus, Ultra 1 = 426 damage
I'm probably missing a few others but these are basically the characters that fish for EX red focus very easily compared to the rest of the cast. Not everything up there is a true block string or safe on block, but regardless they are hard to punish for most people or can't be punished. These guys will have a far easier time taking advantage of this new mechanic compared to most of the cast. Luckily for me, I play two of those characters with Evil Ryu being my main. Unfortunately everybody else their including Viper
Evil Ryu: cr. MK, LK axe kick, EX red focus, Ultra 2 = 469 damage
Yun: cr. MK, LP shoulder, EX red focus, Ultra 1, HP lunge = 457 damage
Yang: cr. MK, LP slash, EX red focus, Ultra 1 = 394
Oni: MP, LK slash, EX red focus, Ultra 2 = 499 damage
Viper: cr. MK, MP knuckle, EX red focus, Ultra 2 = 455 damage
Makoto: cr. MP, LP dash punch, EX red focus, Ultra 1 = 426 damage
I'm probably missing a few others but these are basically the characters that fish for EX red focus very easily compared to the rest of the cast. Not everything up there is a true block string or safe on block, but regardless they are hard to punish for most people or can't be punished. These guys will have a far easier time taking advantage of this new mechanic compared to most of the cast. Luckily for me, I play two of those characters with Evil Ryu being my main. Unfortunately everybody else their including Viper
We all know about EX red focus can create new combos. It provides a way for just about every character to combo into Ultra off a move with a lot of hit stun, like a heavy attack. Some character like Ryu can combo into their heavy attack, but the guys who'll have the easiest time are the guys who have a special that doesn't knockdown nor does it have a lot of push back. This is what I found off the top of my head
Evil Ryu: cr. MK, LK axe kick, EX red focus, Ultra 2 = 469 damage
Yun: cr. MK, LP shoulder, EX red focus, Ultra 1, HP lunge = 457 damage
Yang: cr. MK, LP slash, EX red focus, Ultra 1 = 394
Oni: MP, LK slash, EX red focus, Ultra 2 = 499 damage
Viper: cr. MK, MP knuckle, EX red focus, Ultra 2 = 455 damage
Makoto: cr. MP, LP dash punch, EX red focus, Ultra 1 = 426 damage
I'm probably missing a few others but these are basically the characters that fish for EX red focus very easily compared to the rest of the cast. Not everything up there is a true block string or safe on block, but regardless they are hard to punish for most people or can't be punished. These guys will have a far easier time taking advantage of this new mechanic compared to most of the cast. Luckily for me, I play two of those characters with Evil Ryu being my main. Unfortunately everybody else their including Viper
I think that would be a basic application. I'm more worried about Zangief comboing into green hand and landing ultra or dudley doing that ducking straight into ultra.
biosnake20
Member
Red Focus gives some great comboability to characters that need it like Dee Jay(medium sobat) and Dhalsim(jab fireball) but also make characters like Akuma(medium tatsu) and Seth(fireball) even scarier. Surprisingly, there are only like 3-4 characters that can combo into focus with their fireball consistently.
CountBlack
Member
Really don't want this game to turn into a crumple fest. Even though it'll only really be viable once per round since it takes so much meter.
kevo_huevo
Member
anyone know what the damage is on honda's jab xx hands xx red focus ultra 1?
Rice-Eater
Member
I don't see why you would feel that way. Dudley players will either need to react to fireballs or have good enough reactions to confirm off one hit if they're just throwing it out there to see if it hits. Gief's green hand is unsafe on block so he can't spam it. Compared to someone like Viper or Yun who can keep throwing it out there normal x special over and over until it works and easily hit confirm off of it. So I would feel more threatened by those characters using the new mechanic compared to Gief or Duds because they have a easier time using the new mechanic and the damage will be similar.
This was on my mind as well but I don't play charge characters nor do I have the execution to pull it off.
I don't feel more threatened by those characters because they already have high damage combos. Giving them another tool to do similar damage is a bit redundant. There's definitely less execution in the combos you listed but less stun as well. Giving a grappler a tool to combo into his ultra is much scarier for me.
Rice-Eater
Member
For some characters I think it will be. Yun players will have to think about whether they should save their meter for super or not. But everybody else it feels like more of a no brainer. It's such a easy way to land ultra, costly, but very very easy. I can tell you now that for my own character I'm probably going to use DP, FADC, Ultra a lot less then I do now and focus more on EX red focus. It's easy to confirm so I'm not blowing meter on a guess like I would on DP, FADC to land Ultra.
I see what you mean now. As for Gief, I tested it and I can't get green hand EX focus to work. I don't know if they lessened the hit stun on green hand or this mod is kind of off but it doesn't work in the Ultra mod I have from Kingblacktooth.
CountBlack
Member
EX Red Focus should scale harsher than a regular focus in that case.
I'm on 360 right now, send me an invite whenever.
RockTurtle
Member
back on the grind. who's the new blood!?
Some characters have a 3 frame "safe jump" but the ones I've seen aren't very good (the one for gouken anyways). Your jump in is basically far enough so that by the time the dp reaches you, its already in its second or third active frame, allowing you to block in time. I suppose its useful if your opponent has never seen the setup before and decides to dp but other than that, it could be hard to continue your pressure due to the spacing.
CountBlack
Member
Didn't even know Kadey had a different XBL gamertag
Yeah, there are certain spacing-related safejump setups where you land far enough that the first active frame of the SRK doesn't hit you, so you can recover from your landing frames. Reading up on it, Sak can do it, so I should practice up on them too.
Just wanted to say thanks again, chaps. I watched a decent amount of Kyo Anton last night, providing some good image training. I agree that sometimes the play can be gimmicky, but I much prefer watching and learning from someone who can adapt, throw out fresh tricks and stay on the offensive rather than someone who gets shut down and has to change their entire operation.
Also, that crouch tech tech is pretty nifty, thanks. I'm a pad player by default, so a bit tricky. Perhaps it's time to splash out on one of those silent sticks...
vas_a_morir
Banned
What is the consensus for comback character of the year when Ultra comes out? The character that everybody has slept on that is going to awesome?
So, how long until I stop getting beat around? It's not everything to win. If I wanted to win, I would have stayed with Blanka where I got 1200 PP in just a few hours. But damn, I'm starting to think Ibuki is a bit too advanced for a relative newbie like me. I just flat out don't know how to play this game. Just feeling a bit frustrated. I got roughed up pretty damn bad when I first started today.
So, how long until I stop getting beat around? It's not everything to win. If I wanted to win, I would have stayed with Blanka where I got 1200 PP in just a few hours. But damn, I'm starting to think Ibuki is a bit too advanced for a relative newbie like me. I just flat out don't know how to play this game. Just feeling a bit frustrated. I got roughed up pretty damn bad when I first started today.
kevo_huevo
Member
yeah, i would move away from ibuki if i were you. from what i remember, there were some fundamental things like spacing, repeated jump-ins and random/wakeup ultras that you need to clean up. i would pick up maybe bison/rog/ryu or even go back to blanka.
Passive Assassin
Member
i don't know about ibuki being advanced. her game is mad simple. get knockdown and do unblockables till death. but yeah, it's probably better to play a charge character or a fireball character to get a better idea on footsies.
vas_a_morir
Banned
Actually, I consciously made note and worked hard to eliminate risky guess/counter Ultras after our matches, as I actually think I random'd myself out of winnable matches a few times when we played.
Also, at that time I was unaware that I had to super jump in order to get the Vortex going. These are issues I have addressed a bit. My absolute biggest issue is my ground-game. I got nothing. I'm not going to act like I'm not getting better, but I feel like I could get better faster with a more well-rounded character. So far, I've played mostly low-tier gimmick characters.
Rose she has good buffs and the system changes benefit her while taking very little away.
vas_a_morir
Banned
Probably the best Ultra in the game
Rose U2 is good and needed, but it's hardly the best Ultra.
She'll get the best mileage out of double ultras.
vas_a_morir
Banned
I dunno... it's a big momentum changer.
Rice-Eater
Member
Rose's U2 was arguably one of the best in SSF4. It's still good, just probably not top 5 anymore like it was before.
BTW, yesterday a few of us were discussing using EX red focus in combos. I made a video using Kingblacktooth's Ultra mod. It's my first time using editing tools and such. I just found some stuff online and threw this together, unfortunately it has no sound. I don't know how to fix it so I just uploaded it like this. Here it is in case you're interested. Basically the point is just to show how easy certain characters will have it in landing it and how much damage it can do so you will have to come to your own conclusion on whether it's worth it to safe 3 bars to use this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-I4-qYwsS0&feature=youtu.be
BTW, yesterday a few of us were discussing using EX red focus in combos. I made a video using Kingblacktooth's Ultra mod. It's my first time using editing tools and such. I just found some stuff online and threw this together, unfortunately it has no sound. I don't know how to fix it so I just uploaded it like this. Here it is in case you're interested. Basically the point is just to show how easy certain characters will have it in landing it and how much damage it can do so you will have to come to your own conclusion on whether it's worth it to safe 3 bars to use this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-I4-qYwsS0&feature=youtu.be
RockTurtle
Member
i love Rose's U2 because Rose players get confident and start to rush in, so they feel comfortable doing jumpings or dashing forward like mad.
EX-HOZANTO'D
It can be, yeah. The same could be said of counter ultras like Cammy's CQC. I personally think the projectile ultras like Ryu's and Sagat's are the best because of their versatility.
vas_a_morir
Banned
EX Neckbreaker. They always dash in.
Tonight, I've decided to go back and focus on fundamentals: defense, footsies, normal anti-airs, and safe cancelling. I'm using mostly Guile and Ryu. I've been playing a bunch of Endless Battles, and if I get chipped out playing conservatively, well I can live with that, because that's what I need to improve the most 5 weeks in so far. What I can't live with is whiffing on special moves and getting punished like I live in a cage in Zed's pawnshop basement. Still working on some other characters in training mode, though.
I'm on PSN [vasamorir]. Any gaffer is welcome to add me.
AkumaHokoru
Member
Hrm...new best character in ultra...I think most improved will go to W Gief.
biosnake20
Member
It can't be, there are no clips of you shitting on my Cody.
black_vegeta
Member
All dat derp
CountBlack
Member
Got bodied by Pr Rog 4 times on stream.
First match was close.. then he adapted and I got BODIED
First match was close.. then he adapted and I got BODIED
Rice-Eater
Member
So Shinblanka just announced that Capcom will have a location test for USF4 during Final Round. My birthday is actually that Saturday during the weekend of Final Round. Being able to attend and put to use all the practice I've been putting in the USF4 mod would have been a great birthday gift. But nope, that's not happening. I have to go to California to get married that same weekend. If that wasn't bad enough, I'm going back to the shithole...err I mean city where I was born, Stockton, California.
I would have gone to Final Round for nothing else but that location test. But that's just my luck. I guess it's back to the USF4 mod and watching more streams where I will watch people continue to not play my character
I would have gone to Final Round for nothing else but that location test. But that's just my luck. I guess it's back to the USF4 mod and watching more streams where I will watch people continue to not play my character
biosnake20
Member
So Shinblanka just announced that Capcom will have a location test for USF4 during Final Round. My birthday is actually that Saturday during the weekend of Final Round. Being able to attend and put to use all the practice I've been putting in the USF4 mod would have been a great birthday gift. But nope, that's not happening. I have to go to California to get married that same weekend. If that wasn't bad enough, I'm going back to the shithole...err I mean city where I was born, Stockton, California.
I would have gone to Final Round for nothing else but that location test. But that's just my luck. I guess it's back to the USF4 mod and watching more streams where I will watch people continue to not play my character
CountBlack
Member
So Shinblanka just announced that Capcom will have a location test for USF4 during Final Round. My birthday is actually that Saturday during the weekend of Final Round. Being able to attend and put to use all the practice I've been putting in the USF4 mod would have been a great birthday gift. But nope, that's not happening. I have to go to California to get married that same weekend. If that wasn't bad enough, I'm going back to the shithole...err I mean city where I was born, Stockton, California.
I would have gone to Final Round for nothing else but that location test. But that's just my luck. I guess it's back to the USF4 mod and watching more streams where I will watch people continue to not play my character
Rice-Eater
Member
Lol
Yes I was being sarcastic although the timing still sucks
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