Professor Beef
Banned
Dem Hawk buffs, aw yiss.
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Super Street Fighter 4 Æ |OT5| Waiting to go from Super to Ultra
- Thread starter Kadey
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Shouta
Member
Nothing's changed much since CapCup but cl.mp gonna be good as an anti-air. Current version can actually hit opponents directly above you. It's gonna be activating from farther now, lol.
AkumaHokoru
Member
Far MP -fapfapfap-
What was the initial problem with Dudley's victory rose? I thought it was that it didnt cause enough block stun to do anything with it?
Also what do you or other dudley players think of the changes being made to him?
biosnake20
Member
They're on the right track with those Cody buffs. Gimme dat faster backwards walk speed. I really hope they give Sagat his stand short from Vanilla back though. Not sure why they took it away. Just make it one hit again as a slight nerf then make it special cancelable.
Except for Dan, he still has it. EVERYONE GET ON THE DAN TRAIN. NEXT STOP, TOP TIER!
Except for Dan, he still has it. EVERYONE GET ON THE DAN TRAIN. NEXT STOP, TOP TIER!
I think they're trying to take defensive play away from Juri completely, which is a bad idea. I don't think it will be AS bad as folks think, as Juri rarely is without meter, as EX divekick does lead to solid damage/easier U2. Still a completely unneeded nerf though. The counter nerf I could live with.
Jump fierce getting knockdown back means she at least has something.
Am I the only one that doesn't understand what Juri players are complaining about? The only nerfs I see are the bolded ones. The latter two nerfs will not have any effect on the big picture. The additional frame disadvantage was to compensate the additional invincibility frame (other characters received similar treatment). The invincibility frames of Engine seems pointless as I only see Juri players use it after a knockdown.
CountBlack
Member
Reading the salt on the SRK character forums is so fun.
It's entirely the removal of jump back dive kick that is causing complaints.
That's a great counter to folks who spam focus on wakeup, and allows for fireball punishing a lot more easily.
She is getting some nice buffs, but she wasn't a strong character to begin with, so she didn't need nerfs.
Counter nerf is pretty minor, except on low life. My favorite use of counter was vs sonic booms at a certain range to get in.
That's a great counter to folks who spam focus on wakeup, and allows for fireball punishing a lot more easily.
She is getting some nice buffs, but she wasn't a strong character to begin with, so she didn't need nerfs.
Counter nerf is pretty minor, except on low life. My favorite use of counter was vs sonic booms at a certain range to get in.
vas_a_morir
Banned
Time spent in the training room really pays off. I find myself able to pull off the vortex more and more, and make better reads. I was able to take a round from a couple of top 200 players tonight with my grimy play-style. I don't think I got swept (2-0 round losses) once tonight out of 15 matches. That makes you feel good even in a loss.
Why not neutral jump against focus attacks? Even if she couldn't dive kick, I don't know how people waking up with focus attack could be an issue in the first place. Do you mean focus back dash? Punishing a fireball with jump back dive kick sounds pretty situational to me. Maybe if the opponent is trying make you land on a fireball?
Kontergurke
Member
Sorry for the noob question, but aren't the input for Red Focus and EX Red Focus identical?
How do you differentiate between the two?
How do you differentiate between the two?
Rice-Eater
Member
Red Focus: Basically a focus attack that can practically absorb a infinite number of hits
EX Red Focus: Used for canceling moves. What's unique about this is that landing a level 1 focus will crumple your opponent. So if you're playing Ryu you can do EX red focus a regular st. HP and crumple your opponent with a level 1 hit and follow up with Ultra or whatever you want.
BTW, did anybody notice that Ken DP, FADC, Ultra is going to do a fuck ton of damage now? His HP SRK does 120 off the first two hits now and his non animation Ultra 1 does 390 damage. If my math is right, that means Ken does 432 off his DP, FADC, Ultra now. That's much much higher than what he does right now which is 326. I thought the point was to give him a little more damage, not give him one of the most damaging DP, FADC, Ultra combos.
You can't FADC the second hit on block though, so at least there's that.
AkumaHokoru
Member
Engine could be used to activate and blow up a punish attempt. that shit is gone.
Losing jump back divekick takes away a minor trick for juri. other characters got more off their jb divekick but they decided she shouldnt have one because no one else has one despite having the worst divekick by far in the game.
Kagatsuchi is a EXTREMELY vulnerable counter. she already got full comboed for getting hit out of it. now she'll lose even more health for nothing. the move became a "do not use except last resort and only if they cant punish" option.
ex pin having more recovery...it already had a lot but now she will get punished free if it doesnt hit
I always considered Juri's "counter" a teleport move instead of a counter. I only used EX for countering because it was instant. The regular counter I used as a way to get in on certain projectiles.
EX pin counter makes no difference, she got full punished anyways. The extra frame of invin helps, but I wish the invincibie part of it got a wider hitbox horizontally so going through moves would be easier.
Juri's divekick did armor break, that is the best part of it, not many chars can armor break in the air. EX divekick at least is around 250 damage or so.
EX pin counter makes no difference, she got full punished anyways. The extra frame of invin helps, but I wish the invincibie part of it got a wider hitbox horizontally so going through moves would be easier.
Juri's divekick did armor break, that is the best part of it, not many chars can armor break in the air. EX divekick at least is around 250 damage or so.
AkumaHokoru
Member
it was her one guarenteed ab.
vas_a_morir
Banned
Thanks to Kevo for playing me to a FT5 tonight. I got thrashed by random characters (and a guest Honda), but if you want to do well in ranked matches, what you should do is go to Endless battle, get your shit slapped around for a hot minute, and when you pop into ranked and play people your own skill level, you will be sharp as a tack. Lots of fun, too.
EDIT: Case in point:
Number 40 player for Yang in the world.
EDIT: Case in point:
Number 40 player for Yang in the world.
I never meet Vega, but I met one that just bounced around and then started to simply chain throw me on wake up, from above. I think I tried the obvious stuff like DP on wake up, maybe even EX DP (Ryu). I just couldn't adjust, and then it was over. (Also congrats on your completely boring way of winning a match, to whoever you were, but whatever) - what do you do on wake up to not get thrown?
If they're going for throws, instant reversal moves work, as does backdash, or throw teching.
This was the Vega-bounces-from-one-side-of-the-screen-to-the-other-then-overhead-command-throw.
Sorry for the late response, but I'm playing on PSN right now.
I have this week off, so my goal is to finally crack the 3000bp mark, I've been hovering in the 2500-2700bp mark for too long. Already learned some safe jump tactics, gonna try to figure out Sakura's FADC combos, and grind until I get there. No mercy!
I have this week off, so my goal is to finally crack the 3000bp mark, I've been hovering in the 2500-2700bp mark for too long. Already learned some safe jump tactics, gonna try to figure out Sakura's FADC combos, and grind until I get there. No mercy!
kevo_huevo
Member
Heh glad I could help! I actually have more fun playing bipson than Honda, but I'll stick with the sumo for v.2014. Maybe I'll pick up Abel to help to counter pick some of Hondas bad matchups.
That 3000 mark is a beast- and I think 3000 is about where you start to weed out the unsolid players for the most part.
BP or PP? I'm at 2200 PP and 6100 BP with Sagat , but I'm still pretty mediocre.
Rice-Eater
Member
3k players are still ass. I say this as a 3k player. I and many like me still lack strong fundamentals and aren't able to apply more advance tactics. We get there with vortex, gimmicks, set ups, spammable safe moves, and we still mash DP no differently then the typical 1500pp guy. We're not all like this, I feel some of my fellow high 2k/low 3k guys have good fundamentals. But I think the majority are like what I just described. I get to 3k a lot by beating guys in the 1 or 2k range, then I run into better players and get beaten back down. But I'm always back there eventually. If I can do that I think that should be a strong indicator that low 3k players aren't all that.
1. All upkicks whiff on crouching chars/crouching normals
2. Most meaty low shorts recover faster than the time it takes for his other reversals (ex mgu/ex sobat) to reach their active frames (12f/15f respectively).
3. Meaty low normals that have a good amount of active frames (most character's low strongs/forwards) will stuff DeeJay's reversals due to what i noted in #1, plus the fact that all his other ex reversals aren't fully invincible until startup (ex mgu only has 4 frames of invincibility on startup, that is 8 frames to be completely stuffed before a trade. ex sobat has only 7 frames of invincibility, which also has an 8 frame gap) It's kinda funny in this respect because chars that are well noted for "not having a wakeup" (i.e. Rose) have reversals with both faster startup and more inv frames than deejay's options.
3. His backdash is pretty bad (short distance, slightly poor recovery, he makes a distinctive audio cue for it). Wake up backdash is never a really good option either (unless you are chun, makoto, or rose). Even without option selecting it's pretty easy to react to (because of the range and audio cue). If you hear it, you just sweep and it will more than likely tag him.
Now this is just on wakeup however. Take this and apply it to any neutral situation where you are close to deejay and it's the same thing. His only 3f normals are standing (st.jab) which means you give up downcharge which cuts his options in half, and his low short is extremely slow (5f startup and very long recovery, but will be getting changed in USF4). Unless you have a hard read on what the opponent is going to do it is usually in deejay's best interest to block. (also the best idea to block at midrange too but that's another topic)
EX MGU being decreased to 6f startup should alleviate this issue though.
here's a rough example of it in action, its essentially the same with most chars.
2. Most meaty low shorts recover faster than the time it takes for his other reversals (ex mgu/ex sobat) to reach their active frames (12f/15f respectively).
3. Meaty low normals that have a good amount of active frames (most character's low strongs/forwards) will stuff DeeJay's reversals due to what i noted in #1, plus the fact that all his other ex reversals aren't fully invincible until startup (ex mgu only has 4 frames of invincibility on startup, that is 8 frames to be completely stuffed before a trade. ex sobat has only 7 frames of invincibility, which also has an 8 frame gap) It's kinda funny in this respect because chars that are well noted for "not having a wakeup" (i.e. Rose) have reversals with both faster startup and more inv frames than deejay's options.
3. His backdash is pretty bad (short distance, slightly poor recovery, he makes a distinctive audio cue for it). Wake up backdash is never a really good option either (unless you are chun, makoto, or rose). Even without option selecting it's pretty easy to react to (because of the range and audio cue). If you hear it, you just sweep and it will more than likely tag him.
Now this is just on wakeup however. Take this and apply it to any neutral situation where you are close to deejay and it's the same thing. His only 3f normals are standing (st.jab) which means you give up downcharge which cuts his options in half, and his low short is extremely slow (5f startup and very long recovery, but will be getting changed in USF4). Unless you have a hard read on what the opponent is going to do it is usually in deejay's best interest to block. (also the best idea to block at midrange too but that's another topic)
EX MGU being decreased to 6f startup should alleviate this issue though.
here's a rough example of it in action, its essentially the same with most chars.
Well, yeah, you are going to lose often to better players.
I'm not saying it's a true indication of skill, but I generally assume someone around that range knows what they're doing. Knows what they're doing, and is a threat to do well at regionals and majors are two different things.
Also some folks are online warriors who don't play as well offline.
Professor Beef
Banned
I have to respect Deejay's wakeup only because I play a big body. 
Yeah...I have to respect Deejay's wakeup only because I play a big body.
well i do know that you can get rid of deejay's side charge with condor spire off a forward throw, and that upkicks still whiffs on his low forward...its kinda slow though so ex mgu tags it. But his low jab recovers fast enough...but ex upkicks tags that. It's at least a guessing game with big body chars, not just a complete shut down like with most others.
Rice-Eater
Member
I didn't mean it in a way like these guys are threats to win big tournaments. Just that they lack strong fundamentals. Take me for example, I'm not looking to whiff punish, I just throw out normals and hope they hit. Another one is I don't react to jump ins that well, I sit there and say "he's going to jump soon, I need to focus on that".
I'm not saying everybody is like this, just that I think many are. Their is a youtube uploader who goes by "i shoryuken". He's a PC player and most of his uploads are from that player base. PC lacks all the big names, so you have all these random good/decent players instead and you'll see a lot of what I'm describing.
I'm sure you get what I'm saying already Alstein, I just wanted to clarify myself. And I know what you're getting at to. You don't get to 3k without knowing a lot about this game even if you can't successfully apply all your knowledge into a actual match.
Professor Beef
Banned
Yeah...
well i do know that you can get rid of deejay's side charge with condor spire off a forward throw, and that upkicks still whiffs on his low forward...its kinda slow though so ex mgu tags it. But his low jab recovers fast enough...but ex upkicks tags that. It's at least a guessing game with big body chars, not just a complete shut down like with most others.
A lot of my frustration with the matchup is just plain stubbornness on my part. I actually lost a local tournament and got 2nd to a Deejay player (he was amazing though, so I wasn't really mad). In fact, he was the only guy I lost to. Made me realize I know next to nothing about the matchup, which goes back to what you said about nobody knowing the MU and Deejay players being able to exploit that.
CountBlack
Member
Did you get lost in the beat?
One of the all-time great SF4 mysteries for me is why I lose to online DeeJays every damn time. I don't think I have a worse win/loss ration against any other character in the game, as ridiculous as that sounds.
It's just so rare that I come across one online that I don't know that matchup at all, I guess.
It's just so rare that I come across one online that I don't know that matchup at all, I guess.
vas_a_morir
Banned
So, you really can't engage in a ground-game with Ibuki. I'm only just now realizing just how important kunai are, beyond just vortexing. It keeps them from trying random nonsense, and
I can't vortex worth shit, btw. I need to read some tips. I know we got a few Ibukis in here, what are some things you had to realize in order to execute the vortex effectively? Like, do I have to 'super-jump' to make it work?
I can't vortex worth shit, btw. I need to read some tips. I know we got a few Ibukis in here, what are some things you had to realize in order to execute the vortex effectively? Like, do I have to 'super-jump' to make it work?
Passive Assassin
Member
yea you have to super jump after the neckbreaker knockdown and throw a kunai whenever to mix your opponent up. for most of the cast, it's better to just use the unblockables rather than kunais and os to catch them if they use stuff like ex rush or psycho crusher to get out of the vortex.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovrKPK5YM0o here's all the options on every character in the game for ibuki.
I did mean PP, not BP. BP means nothing other than indicating character familiarity.
And yes, I realize 3000pp isn't a mark of excellence, but I'm always hovering in the 2500-2700pp and it's a nice round number to strive for. Safe jump setup has been doing me well, but I need to work on some execution issues. I'm leaving damage on the table, which is the opposite of what Sakura is supposed to be doing. The last 6 months I've been playing 3rd Strike exclusively, so I have to adjust to SF4 input quirks.
Day 1, still at 2700pp. Lost 100+ twice because I didn't adjust to crappy play quick enough, and my reaction time was total crap (ie. I got hit by Oni's EX slash 3 times in 3 rounds). One of them even unsolicited 'u mad?' message to me that I didn't respond to. Then I had a nice streak and got all the points back, though, which I think is the best revenge.
My guess if that you probably press buttons during Deejay's block strings and then get sweeped and subsequently get sucked into the weird Deejay vortex that you feel like you should respect, but really shouldn't. Kneeshot is also weird if you're not used to it.
How can I test this? Because I've been assiduously thrown out of what seems like the active hitbox of my cr. normals when going for OS lows on wakeup (i.e. cr. LK + LP).
When do attacks beat throws in this game? It seems to me throws win regardless of whether or not the attack hitbox is active.
If a throw and a attack reach active frames at the same time, the throw wins, if it's in range. Normal attacks also extend your vulnerability range to throws, making it easier for you to be thrown out of them. Without invincibility or evasion, the only option really is to hit them before they hit you.
empty jump low is a great option, but your timing is off, that's all.
IIRC you play viper, she has a pretty slow low short as well (5f like deejays) so you have to be strict with the timing as well.
What you are trying to do here is press the button while the char is in the getting up animation (if they aren't doing a reversal) so that the first active frames of your low attack are right when the the opponent gains a hurtbox again. It's essentially cancelling out the startup frames of your low short. If you are getting grabbed its because like i said, you are doing it too slow and they are grabbing you out of the startup of your low short (or it could even be that you are doing it too fast, before they wake up and past your low short's active frames, and they are grabbing you out of recovery)
Viper though...she doesn't even really need to use that much lol. Just ambiguous burn kicks all day
IIRC you play viper, she has a pretty slow low short as well (5f like deejays) so you have to be strict with the timing as well.
What you are trying to do here is press the button while the char is in the getting up animation (if they aren't doing a reversal) so that the first active frames of your low attack are right when the the opponent gains a hurtbox again. It's essentially cancelling out the startup frames of your low short. If you are getting grabbed its because like i said, you are doing it too slow and they are grabbing you out of the startup of your low short (or it could even be that you are doing it too fast, before they wake up and past your low short's active frames, and they are grabbing you out of recovery)
Viper though...she doesn't even really need to use that much lol. Just ambiguous burn kicks all day
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