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Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition |OT4| Daigo Who?

B

biosnake20

Member
Official neogaf tier list

Top Tier:
Yang
Yun
Fei Long

Upper Mid Tier:
Sagat
Makoto
Ken
C.Viper
Zangief
Akuma
Ibuki
Seth
Cammy
Dictator
Sakura

Mid Tier:
Juri
Chun
Boxer
Adon
Abel
Ryu
Rufus
Dee Jay
Honda
Guile
Oni
Gen
Evil Ryu
Dudley
Guy
Blanka
Dhalsim

Lower Mid Tier:
Cody
Rose
Claw
T.Hawk
El Fuerte
Gouken
Dan

Bottom Tier:
Hakan

Feedback appreciated.
 
T

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
Official NeoGAF tier list for SSFIV:AE:

S tier:
Yang
Yun
Fei Long

A Tier:
Makoto
Ken
C.Viper
Akuma
Sakura

B+ tier:
Sagat
Zangief
Ibuki
Seth

B tier:
Cammy
Dictator
Chun
Boxer
Adon
Abel
Dee Jay
Guile

B- tier:
Juri
Ryu
Rufus
Honda
T.Hawk
Dudley
Dhalsim
Guy
Blanka
Gen
Oni

C tier:
Cody
Rose
Claw
El Fuerte
Gouken
Dan
Evil Ryu

D tier:
Hakan
 
F

Fosh

Neo Member
Make a match-up chart in excel. I think that it would be easier to provide feedback on specific match-ups instead of everyone arguing who belongs higher than who.
 
S

SmokeMaxX

Member
Rice-Eater said:
Thanks Smoke for the very thorough answer. Google Maps tells me it will be a 11 hour and 30 minute drive to reach Jacksonville, AR from where I live. Believe me, I'd love to come but I just can't bring myself to do it. I hate road trips in general and just the thought of being on the road for 10+ hours is painful. I could fly, but that's where the talk of a Major comes in.

Most average players will generally only go long distances to attend a tournament if it promises to be a multi day event that will attract top players and a lot of people overall. Can't say I'm any different. Since getting there and back will require me to invest quite a bit of my time and money, I'd only do it if it were "Major" status. Sorry if that sounds like I'm taking a jab at your event, I'm not. I wish you guys the best and hopefully ARK 10 or something will be one of those events that everybody around the country has marked on there calender.
Click to expand...
No offense taken, sir. We're not a true major yet and that's just a fact. Would I tell people that we're a "small major"? Sure, since you get to a point where you have to ask yourself what it takes to become a major. We were stickied without question on every board we asked to be stickied on (Dustloop, SRK, Smashboards, TestYourMight, etc.). We had attendance from 10 states or so. But yeah, are we really a major? Not really. But that's just something we have to aim for. We'll get there one day. Give us some time and we'll be there. We may have some surprises in store for ARK V. Stay tuned :)

Infinite Justice said:
Wow at Justin sweeping most of it LOL.

Congrats Maxx at the tourney support.
Click to expand...
Thanks! We're slowly but surely building our community in Arkansas. Wish more of you guys lived closer to us!
And I don't know how Justin does it, but he always wins our Mystery Game Tournament lol. His Pokemon fundamentals are too good. And yes, we did play Pokemon Wild Type at our tournament :)
Official neogaf tier list

<snip>

Feedback appreciated.
Click to expand...
Neogaf tier list? Surely it's...

S+++ (unbeatable) Tier
Blanka

F Tier
Everyone else
 
B

biosnake20

Member
Fosh said:
Make a match-up chart in excel. I think that it would be easier to provide feedback on specific match-ups instead of everyone arguing who belongs higher than who.
Click to expand...
I'll do it if people that play the characters well like saty, dbj, sephiroth, immortal, rice eater, etc. will post the matchups
 
N

Nyoro SF

Member
One annoying part of community tier lists is that everyone thinks their main character is weaker than they actually are.

Or they play a certain character regularly and get a badly magnified view of that character's abilities, making them feel stronger than they actually are.

I'm generalizing, but this is the usual attitude I see when tier lists get debated.
 
C

Conceited

mechaniphiliac
I like the simple yet effective Alioune way of looking at tier lists

Alioune said:
well to put it simple, to me A has 'a' set of tools, B has 'b' set tools : A beats B means 'a' cover more B options than 'b 'does with A. That's arbitrary, and human factor makes matchups less relevant at the highest level, they still exist though.
Click to expand...
 
T

ThatCrazyGuy

Member
Nyoro SF said:
One annoying part of community tier lists is that everyone thinks their main character is weaker than they actually are.

Or they play a certain character regularly and get a badly magnified view of that character's abilities, making them feel stronger than they actually are.

I'm generalizing, but this is the usual attitude I see when tier lists get debated.
Click to expand...

First part is, people want built in excuses when they lose I think. And they want to feel even better about themselves when they win, like they climbed Mt. Everest, when it was just up the Pomona Hill on the 10.

2nd part is, people don't know how to step back and look at things objectively I think.

That's why Aris says no tournament players should be balancing games (unless they work for said company) . To much bias. I tend to agree.
 
K

kirblar

Member
ThatCrazyGuy said:
First part is, people want built in excuses when they lose I think. And they want to feel even better about themselves when they win, like they climbed Mt. Everest, when it was just up the Pomona Hill on the 10.

2nd part is, people don't know how to step back and look at things objectively I think.

That's why Aris says no tournament players should be balancing games (unless they work for said company) . To much bias. I tend to agree.
Click to expand...
Your best players are the ones you want stress-testing the games, not making them.
 
S

Satyamdas

Banned
Nyoro SF said:
One annoying part of community tier lists is that everyone thinks their main character is weaker than they actually are.

Or they play a certain character regularly and get a badly magnified view of that character's abilities, making them feel stronger than they actually are.

I'm generalizing, but this is the usual attitude I see when tier lists get debated.
Click to expand...
By the same token, if a person creating a list doesn't play a certain character, then they can easily misjudge that character's match ups. If someone who doesn't play Sim watched Mochi body some random Chun, they might think "Oh, this is heavily in Sim's favor". But the reality is that it's a 6-4 match for Chun, and it is player skill making up the difference.

I'm gonna trust Joekage's opinion on Cody's match ups more than I am some dude who plays Rose. That's not to say players of a certain character are always perfectly objective, but they do have more knowledge about their character's match ups and at face value I'm going to give their opinion more weight. That's also why I would never bother ranking any matches other than Sim's match ups. I don't play those characters so I don't feel qualified to offer an opinion on them.
 
B

biosnake20

Member
I can do cody's then someone like joekage can do one to then we'll have an intelligent conversation about it and pick the definitive one.
 
R

Rice-Eater

Member
Conceited said:
I like the simple yet effective Alioune way of looking at tier lists
Click to expand...

What Alioune says sounds like A should always be greater then B or C. But that's not the case as we all know. So I don't think that's how it should be looked at. But then again, the tier chart method isn't the best way either. In Super when Chun and Honda were considered two of the top characters, they didn't win or barely even showed up in top 8 in major tourney's because they struggled against other top characters. They only got to the top because they destroyed weaker characters more so then the other top characters.

cHaotix8 said:
5 frame low forward for evil Ryu would be mad broken. That shit's like a dhalsim limb that you can combo off of.
Click to expand...

I was just kidding

No I wasn't, gimme my 5 frame low foward for Evil Ryu Capcom
 
T

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
Ryu matchups ~

Ryu vs Dhalsim: 3.5 - 6.5
Ryv vs Juri: 4.0 - 6.0
Ryv vs Tony Hawk: 5.0 - 5.0
Ryv vs Yun: 4.0 - 6.0
Ryv vs Fei Long: 4.0 - 6.0
Ryv vs Ken: 4.0 - 6.0
Ryv vs Akuma: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs Sagat: 5.0 - 5.0
Ryv vs Zangief: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs C. Viper: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs Bison: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs Chun Li: 5.0 - 5.0
Ryv vs Abel: 4.0 - 6.0
Ryv vs Balrog: 4.0 - 6.0
Ryv vs Guile: 4.0 - 6.0
Ryv vs Dudley: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs Makoto: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs Honda: 5.5 - 4.5
Ryv vs Adon: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs Seth: 5.0 - 5.0
Ryv vs Ibuki: 5.5 - 4.5
Ryv vs Cody: 5.0 - 5.0
Ryv vs Cammy: 5.0 - 5.0
Ryv vs Gen: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs Sakura: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs Oni: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs Guy: 5.0 - 5.0
Ryv vs Rose: 5.5 - 4.5
Ryv vs Rufus: 5.0 - 5.0
Ryv vs E. Ryu: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs El Fuerte: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs Blanka: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs Dee Jay: 5.0 - 5.0
Ryv vs Hakan: 6.0 - 4.0
Ryv vs Yang: 4.0 - 6.0
Ryv vs Gouken: 4.5 - 5.5
Ryv vs Dan: 5.5 - 4.5
Ryv vs Claw: 4.0 - 6.0
 
S

Satyamdas

Banned
the_log_ride said:
Even if other specialists don't follow suit, start posting up your thoughts on 'Sims matchups, Saty.
Click to expand...
Actually I agree almost completely with this match up list from Japan. Admittedly it's 3 months old, but I think they nailed almost every match up for Dhalsim.

Yun/Sim is 8-2, not 7-3, and Yang is 7-3, not 6-4. Akuma/Sim is 6-4 for Akuma, not 5-5. Other than that I agree with every match up except for a few where I think it is .5 worse than they say (Chun, Dudley, Ibuki), or .5 more in Sim's favor (Cammy and Gouken).

What do you think about that list? Lemme see your Sim matchups!

Biosnake20 said:
I can do cody's then someone like joekage can do one to then we'll have an intelligent conversation about it and pick the definitive one.
Click to expand...
Oops, haha. I forgot you played Cody too. I didn't mean I trust him over you, I was just using an example of someone who I know mains a character being more trustworthy versus someone who doesn't play that character at all. DBJ might be 10-0 vs. the entire universe and God himself, but I'm still gonna trust his Sakura match up rankings over someone who mains Gief, ya know?
 
B

biosnake20

Member
Satyamdas said:
Actually I agree almost completely with this match up list from Japan. Admittedly it's 3 months old, but I think they nailed almost every match up for Dhalsim.

Yun/Sim is 8-2, not 7-3, and Yang is 7-3, not 6-4. Akuma/Sim is 6-4 for Akuma, not 5-5. Other than that I agree with every match up except for a few where I think it is .5 worse than they say (Chun, Dudley, Ibuki), or .5 more in Sim's favor (Cammy and Gouken).

What do you think about that list? Lemme see your Sim matchups!


Oops, haha. I forgot you played Cody too. I didn't mean I trust him over you, I was just using an example of someone who I know mains a character being more trustworthy versus someone who doesn't play that character at all. DBJ might be 10-0 vs. the entire universe and God himself, but I'm still gonna trust his Sakura match up rankings over someone who mains Gief, ya know?
Click to expand...
Oh I wasn't taking offense to that, I'm just saying if we have more than one person doing it for one character than there is less bias.
 
S

Satyamdas

Banned
eva01 said:
sim needs to be higher on that tier list
Click to expand...
crazy_turkish_tv6u0b.gif


Rentahamster said:
Pretty much the same as you, but I'd tend to agree more with the 5/5 Sim/Akuma matchup.
Click to expand...
You need to play better Akumas. Here, check this out. :D
 
T

the_log_ride

Member
Satyamdas said:
Actually I agree almost completely with this match up list from Japan. Admittedly it's 3 months old, but I think they nailed almost every match up for Dhalsim.

Yun/Sim is 8-2, not 7-3, and Yang is 7-3, not 6-4. Akuma/Sim is 6-4 for Akuma, not 5-5. Other than that I agree with every match up except for a few where I think it is .5 worse than they say (Chun, Dudley, Ibuki), or .5 more in Sim's favor (Cammy and Gouken).

What do you think about that list? Lemme see your Sim matchups!


Oops, haha. I forgot you played Cody too. I didn't mean I trust him over you, I was just using an example of someone who I know mains a character being more trustworthy versus someone who doesn't play that character at all. DBJ might be 10-0 vs. the entire universe and God himself, but I'm still gonna trust his Sakura match up rankings over someone who mains Gief, ya know?
Click to expand...

Rentahamster said:
Pretty much the same as you, but I'd tend to agree more with the 5/5 Sim/Akuma matchup.
Click to expand...

I was actually putting together a spreadsheet for fun, in order to track GAF's thoughts. I checked my Sim matchups against that link, Saty, and mine is more or less the same, give or take some 0.5s here and there. For what it's worth, the matchups where I deviated by 1 or greater were the following:

vs Abel 3-7
vs Akuma 4-6
vs Hakan 6.5-5.5
vs Juri 5-5
vs Dictator 4-6
vs Claw 5-5
vs Yun & Yang 2.5-7.5
 
T

the_log_ride

Member
Rentahamster said:
Perhaps. My personal play history might have a little too much weight since I'd rather fight Akuma than either Ryu or Ken, lol.
Click to expand...

haha, very interesting! I dunno what the hell is up, but I've been paired against random gdlk akumas and kens in ranked as of late. Kens give me a rough time for whatever reason. Gotta peep out that Akuma tech you're on. I must be doing something wrong
 
S

Satyamdas

Banned
the_log_ride said:
I was actually putting together a spreadsheet for fun, in order to track GAF's thoughts. I checked my Sim matchups against that link, Saty, and mine is more or less the same, give or take some 0.5s here and there. For what it's worth, the matchups where I deviated by 1 or greater were the following:

vs Abel 3-7
vs Akuma 4-6
vs Hakan 6.5-5.5
vs Juri 5-5
vs Dictator 4-6
vs Claw 5-5
vs Yun & Yang 2.5-7.5
Click to expand...
Can't argue with Sim/Abel at 3-7. I think I'd give Juri and Claw a .5 advantage over Sim, and the less said about the Yang/Yun matchups the better.

As far as Dictator, he's one of those matchups that feels a lot worse than it actually is. His corner pressure is stupid good, he forces you to stand still, play great defense, block a ton of spam, and you have to slowly whittle his health away. I think the matchup is one of the least fun to play as Sim, and that "UGHHHH not this shit again!" factor makes us rate it worse than it is. I don't know if you caught this when it happened at EVO, but Champ and Neurosis ran a FT3 in the redemption suite. Champ is gdlk at this matchup and wins it 3-1, but it isn't easy. This set shows how Sim has to play vs. Dictator if he wants to win. I think I'd put it at 5.5 in Dic's favor at most.



As for Akuma/Ken/Ryu, I think Akuma is the worst just because his vortex is next to impossible for Sim to get out of. His frame traps are really effective since Sim has no reversal for Akuma to fear, plus his damage means that if you guess wrong you lost 35%+ and are one touch away from being stunned. Ken has his own little ambiguous jumpin vortex that is less scary, but which does just as much damage as Akuma if you fuck up. And kara throws and step kick make playing footsies with him a lot harder and make him scarier at just outside of sweep range. Ryu has the weakest mixups of the 3 but still does good damage if he lands anything.

Also, when it comes to ranking match ups I consider how hard it is to keep them out. Ryu is the easiest by far, then Ken who has a few more tools to get in, and then Akuma who gets in the easiest. Also, how hard is it to get away from them? Again I think Akuma is hardest, Ken second hardest, and Ryu easiest.

Vs. Akuma 4-6
Vs. Ken 4.5-5.5
Vs. Ryu 6-4
 
R

Rice-Eater

Member
Whoa, some new changes just came in, first translation for Ryu is up

HFX said:
Ryu

Hadouken damage is up from 60 to 70, but it still does the same chip damage of 15.

HP Shoryu
- does one hit now instead of two
- startup 3f, if hit early on the 1st 2nd frame it does 160 damage, if hit later it does 60 damage
- invi until the 4th frame
- is not FADCable on hit or block
Click to expand...

At first I was like "fuck yeah, Vanilla DP back". Then I read the last part and was like "WTF, no FADC :(" and was like "well so much for almost being able to do vanilla DP, FADC, Ultra 1 again".

Good news:
-HP SRK is back to vanilla level. One hit for 160 damage.
-Invincibility is back to 4 frames, just like Vanilla

Bad new:
-Can't FADC, which would have been 455 damage hypothetically.
 
C

cackhyena

Member
Rice-Eater said:
Whoa, some new changes just came in, first translation for Ryu is up



At first I was like "fuck yeah, Vanilla DP back". Then I read the last part and was like "WTF, no FADC :(" and was like "well so much for almost being able to do vanilla DP, FADC, Ultra 1 again".
Click to expand...
Eh, I hardly ever touch HP for srks.
 
C

Conceited

mechaniphiliac
Link to the update Rice is talking about: http://www.capcom.co.jp/blog/sf4/development_blog/2011/09/21_4255.html

Ken
• Startup for crouching Hard Kick increased from 7 to 8 frames. They say that you should be really careful trying to combo into crouching Hard Kick from far standing Light or Medium Punch.

• Far standing Hard Kick's startup decreased from 12 to 11 frames, recovery decreased from 21 to 18 frames.

• Far standing Hard Kick on hit is +1, and on guard is -3.

:\
 
U

USD

Member
Going through the changes now:

RYU
-Hadoken from 60 to 70 damage, still 15 damage chip
-HP Shoryuken now one hit, 160 on deep hits, 60 otherwise.
-3F startup, 4F invincibility, cannot FADC

KEN
-cr.HK is 8F (slower from 7F), loses sweep combo
-st.HK 11F from 12F, recovery from 21F to 18F; +1 on hit, -3 on guard
-Overhead feint from 27F to 24F
 
R

Rice-Eater

Member
Wow, they took away Ken's ability to combo into sweep already? Ken players were so happy about that, and it's already gone? I can see why they took it away from Fei because he was so good already, but I don't see the need to take it from Ken.
 
U

USD

Member
CHUN-LI
-EX Hyakuretsu moves farther, making some difficult combos easier to land
-cl.HP does 1F more hit stun, half the pushback from before; cl.HP &#8594; HK Spinning Bird (290 damage, 400 stun) is possible
-HK Spinning Bird damage and stun to 200
-Tenkukyaku (second hit of Tenshokyaku TC) has a lower extended hitbox, easier to connect from Kintekishu (first hit)

E.HONDA
-Last hit of HP Hundred Hand has bigger hitbox, easier to land fullhit from cr.LP
-EX Oicho to 150 stun (from 100)
-UC2 shortcut command is easier to do
 
U

USD

Member
BLANKA
-EX Vertical Roll (upball) now knocks down, but leaves the opponent closer on guard

ZANGIEF
-(far) st.HP knocks down on hit

GUILE
-Flash Kick does 10 more damage for non-EX versions, to 110/130/140 for LK/MK/HK
-Sonic Hurricane (UC2) damage to 150+15*4+90 (300), from 90+30*4+90 (300); Flash Kick &#8594; UC2 does about 50 more damage as a result (EDIT: USD can't do math, same damage, changed distribution)
-Reverse Spin Kick (F/B+HK when close) now +5 on hit (from +4)

Guile is top tier again. The Spin Kick buff means he can link into cl.HP/st.HP one-frame. And Sonic Refreshing Wind Blast is no more.
 
C

Conceited

mechaniphiliac
USD said:
GUILE
-Flash Kick does 10 more damage for non-EX versions, to 110/130/140 for LK/MK/HK
-Sonic Hurricane (UC2) damage to 150+15*4+90 (400), from 90+30*4+90 (300); Flash Kick &#8594; UC2 does about 50 more damage as a result
-Reverse Spin Kick (F/B+HK when close) now +5 on hit (from +4)

Guile is top tier again.
Click to expand...

Nooooooooooooooooo
 
C

cackhyena

Member
USD said:
Guile
-Flash Kick does 10 more damage for non-EX versions, to 110/130/140 for LK/MK/HK
-Sonic Hurricane (UC2) damage to 150+15*4+90 (400), from 90+30*4+90 (300); Flash Kick &#8594; UC2 does about 50 more damage as a result
-Reverse Spin Kick (F/B+HK when close) now +5 on hit (from +4)

Guile is top tier again. The Spin Kick buff means he can link into cl.HP/st.HP one-frame. And Sonic Refreshing Wind Blast is no more.
Click to expand...
Niiiice. U2 isn't shit anymore.
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Dhalsim (might be incorrect, I'm not sure what the specific Street Fighter jargon is in Japanese/English.):

&#12304;&#31435;&#12385;&#24369;&#12497;&#12531;&#12481;&#12305;&#12498;&#12483;&#12488;&#26178;&#12398;&#30456;&#25163;&#20596;&#30828;&#30452;&#12434;1F&#24310;&#38263;&#12375;&#12289;
&#12498;&#12483;&#12488;&#26178;&#12395;2F&#26377;&#21033;&#12395;&#12394;&#12427;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#35519;&#25972;&#12434;&#12375;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;
&#20363;&#12360;&#12400;&#12289;&#12304;&#31435;&#12385;&#24369;&#12497;&#12531;&#12481;&#12305;&#8594;&#12304;EX&#12520;&#12460;&#12501;&#12524;&#12452;&#12512;&#12305;&#12364;
&#12467;&#12531;&#12508;&#12392;&#12375;&#12390;&#32331;&#12364;&#12427;&#12424;&#12358;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;

Standing light punch does one frame more hitstun, and is +2 frame advantage on hit.

For example, standing light punch -> EX Yoga Flame is now comboable.


&#12304;&#12520;&#12460;&#12502;&#12521;&#12473;&#12488;&#12305;&#12364;&#12498;&#12483;&#12488;&#12375;&#12383;&#22580;&#21512;&#12395;&#12289;&#24369;&#12539;&#20013;&#29256;&#12399;&#12480;&#12523;&#12471;&#12512;&#12398;&#30828;&#30452;&#12434;10F&#12289;
&#24375;&#29256;&#12399;&#30828;&#30452;&#12434;5F&#12381;&#12428;&#12382;&#12428;&#30701;&#32302;&#12375;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;

Light and medium yoga blast has 10 frames less recovery on hit, hard yoga blast has 5 frames less recovery on hit. (note: It might also be "reduced TO 10 frames and 5 frames. I'm not sure which. I'm not familiar enough with the JPN SF jargon to discern which it is.)
 
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