Support NeoGAF

[Spiderjericho]

I still don't see a Viper army.

I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but your examples don't refute my point at all. It's probably a combination of things.

The Viper whining is a head scratcher to me too. Brings out the scrub in so many people.

I think Saty is channeling dark energy which is seeping onto the internet and creating rage amongst players who see Wolfkrone and Latif (who just started to do really well at tournaments) and associate that with a gang of people doing well at tournaments with a brain dead character.

Forget about Sanford using Sagat in Vanilla.

Or J.Wong using Rufus and getting all his friends to use him (Marn, Ricky and Floe).

Daigo going straight for the gold with Yun.

 

[Kimosabae]

I think Saty is channeling dark energy which is seeping onto the internet and creating rage amongst players who see Wolfkrone and Latif (who just started to do really well at tournaments) and associate that with a gang of people doing well at tournaments with a brain dead character.

Forget about Sanford using Sagat in Vanilla.

Or J.Wong using Rufus and getting all his friends to use him (Marn, Ricky and Floe).

Daigo going straight for the gold with Yun.

Did you hear Dieminion talking about Viper last week at GC?

SMH.

 

[Spiderjericho]

Did you hear Dieminion talking about Viper last week at GC?

SMH.

No. Is this guy who used Guile in Super?

It's like we're oxymorons. It doesn't make sense.

And regarding Combofiend. I think he has fans because he's an exciting player. And lately he plays the character he wants to vice going straight for tiers (which are retarded in the first place since it takes years and years to get accurate data on character matchups in any game).

 

[Lost Fragment]

I respect Latif and Wolfkrone.

But Viper is still stupid as shit.

 

[Kimosabae]

I respect Latif and Wolfkrone.

But Viper is still stupid as shit.

"Stupid" in what sense?

 

[Lost Fragment]

Not sure what I can say that hasn't already been said a million times.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I respect Latif and Wolfkrone.

But Viper is still stupid as shit.

I respect that krone isn't just brainless offense, and very methodical in his approach even if he isn't the best in execution. I like watching latif's flashiness, kinda like kyabetsu or dashio, I really hate seeing the shit he gets away with with his so called defense. But I share your sentiments.

"Stupid" in what sense?

-_-

 

[Kimosabae]

-_-

Not sure what I can say that hasn't already been said a million times.

I was just interested in seeing if I'd actually get something critical this time, instead of weightless common sense I always see on the subject. No need to waste anyone's time.

 

[Rice-Eater]

Besides James Chen, lol, who was using Cammy?

It has nothing to do with top players using the character. Anybody who took this game seriously and main'd that character should have been able to figure out Cammy had those combos, at least before Sako videos hit Youtube. I mean it's just a matter of someone thinking "hmm, I wonder if low fierce links into low forward" or "who knows, maybe stand strong links into crouch strong". Even I was able to figure stuff out for myself(stuff that was already known) by hitting buttons and seeing what works.

I respect Latif and Wolfkrone.

But Viper is still stupid as shit.

Same here, I respect those two, I just hate the character they play. I'd be perfectly fine if she never returns to another SF game. But if she does, hopefully her play style won't be so BS in whatever version of SF game that she may be in.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I respect Latif and Wolfkrone.

But Viper is still stupid as shit.

I believe you because you played the character and have defended her at times.

The others are just jumping the bandwagon.

 

[Kimosabae]

Fine, let me ask a different question:

What makes a character "brain-dead"?

 

[biosnake20]

Poongko beasting with evil ryu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgIehnYIhwU&feature=youtube_gdata

 

[mr. puppy]

Fine, let me ask a different question:

What makes a character "brain-dead"?

step 1: seismo
step 2: did seismo hit?
yes: burning kick!
no:
did they jump over it? DP!
did the stay still? Seismo!
step 3: did they jump over it and knock me down? EX Seismo!
step 4: start over!

 

[El Sloth]

No. Is this guy who used Guile in Super?

Dieminion still plays Guile in AE.

 

[Threi]

If I had two months to play justin wong and only had the choice of viper or hakan...i'd use viper.

Spoiler

sry TToBro

that being said...above all i'd rather make pretentious remarks in this thread about how my opinion is justifiable over others. That is the real good shit, it's comfy on high horses.

*smokes a cigar*

 

[Kimosabae]

step 1: seismo
step 2: did seismo hit?
yes: burning kick!
no:
did they jump over it? DP!
did the stay still? Seismo!
step 3: did they jump over it and knock me down? EX Seismo!
step 4: start over!

Oh, hey, look at this: an overtly simplistic mockery of a thought process.

*edit*

Actually, nobody waste their time on that question. I don't want to bother.

 

[Rice-Eater]

Poongko beasting with evil ryu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgIehnYIhwU&feature=youtube_gdata

Nice execution, but I'm not impressed with his Evil Ryu. It's clear he's just playing the character for fun and not really exploring ER options. Which is too bad, I'd love to see a really high level Evil Ryu.

 

[Satyamdas]

Why is it a head scratcher to you people that players don't like playing against Viper? Why do they have to be "jumping on a bandwagon"? Why can't they legitimately not like fighting against that character? I can only guess that either you are too gdlk to have any problems fighting a good Viper, or you don't play SF. Or you are just too worried about looking like a "hater" to voice your opinion about her nonsense. Or you are like a totally zen buddhist player who lets nothing affect them.

-does ridiculous amount of stun and damage
-59 ways to land high damage ultra
-is far too safe for being able to spam highly ambiguous and/or damaging moves
-flies around the screen at will and can alter her jump arc
-which makes zoning her impossible
-cannot play footsies with her
-can cancel a jump in attack into a fucking ambiguous crossup
-dp trades? eat another dp or better yet an ultra
-can lock you into blocking multiple seismos for chip that adds up to almost 100 dmg

And that isn't even all of her BS. To balance this out there is what? 900 health and somewhat crappy normals? Not good enough. She is a pain in the ass to fight for every character, similar to how no one likes fighting Fuerte. But Fuerte doesn't do the stupid damage/stun that she does, he actually has to put in more work to win. And he doesn't have anywhere near as good of a wakeup game either. So you see less players use Fuerte, therefore you see less bitching about him. But ask anyone who has played a good Fuerte and they will tell you FUCK FUERTE, he is annoying as shit and not fun to fight. Just like Viper.

You can make a list for any character like that.

-builds too much meter for whiffed palms
-too much frame advantage from normals which link into anything
-can juggle way too fucking much
-whiffed my dp? Too bad I flew away too far to be punished
-if you decide to block my infinite blockstrings I will command grab you into 400 damage

-can throw fireballs and poke you from full screen for trying to get around them
-if you get in he can teleport or drill away to safety
-yoga tower is cheap
-easy anti air normals

You can find bitching about any character if you want. The reason Viper gets disproportionate hate is because of how dominant Latif and Wolfkrone are. Just like Rufus was hated during Vanilla when Justin was dominating. Any time a character's BS is on full display and that character is winning, you are going to hear bitching about it. This shit isn't rocket science, people.

 

[Spiderjericho]

It has nothing to do with top players using the character. Anybody who took this game seriously and main'd that character should have been able to figure out Cammy had those combos, at least before Sako videos hit Youtube. I mean it's just a matter of someone thinking "hmm, I wonder if low fierce links into low forward" or "who knows, maybe stand strong links into crouch strong". Even I was able to figure stuff out for myself(stuff that was already known) by hitting buttons and seeing what works.

I never said it required top players. I said it required someone to dedicate themselves to learning the character, ie setups, combos, matchups, etc.

There wasn't anyone known at the time who was doing that with Cammy except...Team NAH Sako about the time Super came out. His videos happen to get uploaded because of his battles with Desora.

Desora or Bullcat are other examples of players who use lesser-known characters.

Like F. Champ said weeks ago, the U.S. doesn't really know much about this game. Japan thinks Blanka is top tier. Who hear is going H.A.M. with him or knows how to?

Latif and Krone had to put in some sort of work to get the results they're getting.

And you mention Evil Ryu but no one is really maining him. I'm sure if Poongko spent a week playing him, he'd probably start doing some dazzling things.

 

[Fosh]

It has nothing to do with top players using the character. Anybody who took this game seriously and main'd that character should have been able to figure out Cammy had those combos, at least before Sako videos hit Youtube. I mean it's just a matter of someone thinking "hmm, I wonder if low fierce links into low forward" or "who knows, maybe stand strong links into crouch strong". Even I was able to figure stuff out for myself(stuff that was already known) by hitting buttons and seeing what works.

The combo is character specific. It only works as a standard punish combo on a handful of characters like chun-li. Other characters it requires a TK strike and a slight walk forward before the cl.mp to make it so that the c.mk wont whiff. With other characters the combo requires a standing mp instead of c.mk.

I believe that part of the reason that reason why the combo didnt surface immediately. Im sure that people tried to do the combo from neutral position and it didnt work on 80% of the cast so they assumed it didnt work. The tk dive kick set-up to use a reeling animation to get closer than normal is pretty unique afaik.

 

[Kimosabae]

Like F. Champ said weeks ago, the U.S. doesn't really know much about this game. Japan thinks Blanka is top tier. Who hear is going H.A.M. with him or knows how to?

US doesn't even seem to care about this game that much anymore, honestly. It's really a damn shame. I can't tell if it's due to AE,Marvel or a combination of both. I doubt 2012 is going to change things either.

 

[Satyamdas]

US doesn't even seem to care about this game anymore, honestly. It's really a damn shame. I can't tell if it's due to AE,Marvel or a combination of both. I doubt 2012 is going to change things either.

Right, that's why 2+ years in and it is still the game with the most entrants at every tourney.

 

[Rice-Eater]

The combo is character specific. It only works as a standard punish combo on a handful of characters like chun-li. Other characters it requires a TK strike and a slight walk forward before the cl.mp to make it so that the c.mk wont whiff. With other characters the combo requires a standing mp instead of c.mk.

I believe that part of the reason that reason why the combo didnt surface immediately. Im sure that people tried to do the combo from neutral position and it didnt work on 80% of the cast so they assumed it didnt work. The tk dive kick set-up to use a reeling animation to get closer than normal is pretty unique afaik.

I'm not talking about that combo, I'm actually just talking about cr. HP, cr. MK or st. MP, cr. MP. Both combos are 2 frame links and are pretty much standard combos that every decent Cammy player started doing after they saw Sako do them. It stuns me that people couldn't figure out these combos or be confident enough to use it themselves until after Sako videos surfaced.

 

[mr. puppy]

Oh, hey, look at this: an overtly simplistic mockery of a thought process.

*edit*

Actually, nobody waste their time on that question. I don't want to bother.

so you're going to EX-seismo out of my comments?

 

[Fosh]

I'm not talking about that combo, I'm actually just talking about cr. HP, cr. MK or st. MP, cr. MP. Both combos are 2 frame links and are pretty much standard combos that every decent Cammy player started doing after they saw Sako do them. It stuns me that people couldn't figure out these combos or be confident enough to use it themselves until after Sako videos surfaced.

I dont mean to be rude, but back in Vanilla when Cammy was released on console we were all doing c.hp, c.mk xx SA for our bnb. Every scrub on SRK forums was doing it and it was probably in the sticky.

I dont know why justin and sanford were doing close fierce xx SA or low forward xx SA. My guess is unfamiliarity with the character during that time. I think most players were using that combo though. Console characters were completely untapped in vanilla.

 

[Kimosabae]

so you're going to EX-seismo out of my comments?

This is 2012, son. Bait da DP.

 

[biosnake20]

There hasn't been some ae2012 info in a while, hope there is some info soon. I wonder if theyre gonna do anymore loc tests. I need dat 2012 Cody.

 

[Rice-Eater]

I dont mean to be rude, but back in Vanilla when Cammy was released on console we were all doing c.hp, c.mk xx SA for our bnb. Every scrub on SRK forums was doing it and it was probably in the sticky.

I dont know why justin and sanford were doing close fierce xx SA or low forward xx SA. My guess is unfamiliarity with the character during that time. I think most players were using that combo though. Console characters were completely untapped in vanilla.

I guess my memory is foggy because I don't remember Cammy players doing these combo. Whether I played against them or watched streams. Then Sako comes along and I'm thinking to myself "wow, I've never seen this stuff before". I guess I'll go back and look to see what Cammy players were doing in 2009.

 

[Kimosabae]

I guess my memory is foggy because I don't remember Cammy players doing these combo. Whether I played against them or watched streams. Then Sako comes along and I'm thinking to myself "wow, I've never seen this stuff before". I guess I'll go back and look to see what Cammy players were doing in 2009.

Yeah, I was playing Cammy in Vanilla and Super. TKCS, cr. HP, cr. MK xx SA was the literally the first combo I learned. I started playing Cammy because of Sanford and I thought TKCS and that combo looked cool as hell.

 

[biosnake20]

I still don't get why cammy was considered low-mid tier in vanilla. She didn't get any huge buffs from vanilla to super like guile did.

 

[Lost Fragment]

Cammy was probably around high-mid in vanilla. Maybe higher. Her crossup did get buffed from vanilla to Super, and that was pretty significant to her overall game.

 

[DR2K]

I went back to watch some old Vanilla matches. I watched Sanford's Cammy and Combofiend's Cammy when he pulled it out against Justin. At one point Justin mirror matches him and even won 1 match. But what really boggles my mind is that none of the 3 were doing the so called Sako combos. All I kept seeing was dive kick, low forward, cannon drill. And when they got dizzies or crumples, it was just FA, st. fierce, drill. Really, did it take Sako to show everybody that these combos existed or was it just that nobody was confident in doing these combos until we saw Sako attempting it every chance he got and landing it a high majority of the time.

Sako drops Cammy combos all the time, that's how fucking stupid they are. And once she lost her TKCS he dropped her completely. Putting things into perspective.

I still don't get why cammy was considered low-mid tier in vanilla. She didn't get any huge buffs from vanilla to super like guile did.

She got better normals, a cross up, and top tier were nerfed. She got minute buffs like Guile did, but it was dumb stuff was removed so she and a few others benefit from that.

 

[Satyamdas]

I still don't get why cammy was considered low-mid tier in vanilla. She didn't get any huge buffs from vanilla to super like guile did.

She didn't need huge buffs. She got that crossup lk, better st.HK, faster spin knuckle, and had her ridiculous dp damage nerfed. She wasn't considered low-mid tier in vanilla by anyone who played the game. She was very solid upper-mid tier. It's just that not many played her during vanilla.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I still don't get why cammy was considered low-mid tier in vanilla. She didn't get any huge buffs from vanilla to super like guile did.

she wasn't considered low tier even back then, it's just nobody played her. Although sako was, but a lot of top jp players were strictly arcade players, so there was that.

 

[Rickenslacker]

I still don't get why cammy was considered low-mid tier in vanilla. She didn't get any huge buffs from vanilla to super like guile did.

The console characters were just being slept on back then, and the perception was that downback destroyed her.

 

[cHaotix8]

No, it's definitely not a bnb for Ryu. Those Cammy links are though, and they're also her most damaging combos(except the 1 frame st. MP cr. HP link). That's what I meant by the comparison.

Cammy BnB in super was jab/short > jab > jab xx SA or close strong > low strong xx SA or cr. Fierce > cr Forward xx SA. Farms was doing those back in Vanilla. Everything else had at least one 1 framer and wasn't really that practical outside of punishes. Why run the risk of dropping a combo when you can get guaranteed damage?

Also, I hated Viper back in Super before it was cool. Also, Immortal we should play our ranbat match.

 

[Kadey]

Lobby in 2 hours or less.

 

[cackhyena]

I'll be there in 4.

 

[Professor Beef]

Can someone point me in the direction where I can find Hawk's buffs for 2012 so far? The only ones I remember are faster cr.hk, projectile invulnerability for his head on cr.hk, and being able to do splash during neutral jump.

Of course, if those are his only buffs, then don't bother. :|

 

[biosnake20]

I guess I got my info from James Chen then lol.

 

[cackhyena]

US doesn't even seem to care about this game that much anymore, honestly. It's really a damn shame. I can't tell if it's due to AE,Marvel or a combination of both. I doubt 2012 is going to change things either.

Are you for real here?

 

[shinshoryuken]

Nice execution, but I'm not impressed with his Evil Ryu. It's clear he's just playing the character for fun and not really exploring ER options. Which is too bad, I'd love to see a really high level Evil Ryu.

I too want to see a high level evil Ryu because he's one of my main. But the thing is ER really lacks any option beside dive kick mix up and frame traps. He doesn't have any vortex like akuma and ken/ryu actually have better options. ER have fancy combo that can deal huge damage but he can easily get blown up in an instant due to his low health.

 

[Nyoro SF]

Can someone point me in the direction where I can find Hawk's buffs for 2012 so far? The only ones I remember are faster cr.hk, projectile invulnerability for his head on cr.hk, and being able to do splash during neutral jump.

Of course, if those are his only buffs, then don't bother. :|

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2011/aug/23/part-2-ssf4-ae-v2012-changes-japanese-dev-team/
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2011/sep/21/part-2-beta-changes-ssf4-ae-v2012/

 

[Professor Beef]

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2011/aug/23/part-2-ssf4-ae-v2012-changes-japanese-dev-team/
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2011/sep/21/part-2-beta-changes-ssf4-ae-v2012/

Thanks. Those changes....*sigh*

 

[black_vegeta]

US doesn't even seem to care about this game that much anymore, honestly. It's really a damn shame. I can't tell if it's due to AE,Marvel or a combination of both. I doubt 2012 is going to change things either.

Oh my days

 

[Kimosabae]

Are you for real here?

Of course I am. Maybe it's just me, but most of the US just spends their time badmouthing the game. I definitely don't think the level of play is as high as when the series was newer because AE seemed to drop the level of caring for a lot of people. There's also Marvel now. Players that were Marvel players first and foremost when SSF4 was the game to play, seem to be more focused on Marvel 3 now.

Are you really going to tell me that AE is as as hype as SSF4 last year leading up to Season's Beatings with Daigo coming here every other major?


*shrugs*

 

[Axis]

Of course I am. Maybe it's just me, but most of the US just spends their time badmouthing the game. I definitely don't think the level of play is as high as when the series was newer because AE seemed to drop the level of caring for a lot of people. There's also Marvel now. Players that were Marvel players first and foremost when SSF4 was the game to play, seem to be more focused on Marvel 3 now.

Are you really going to tell me that AE is as as hype as SSF4 last year leading up to Season's Beatings with Daigo coming here every other major?


*shrugs*

...or justin wong who says he's focusing on SF ^_^

 

[FindMyFarms]

Cammy got Two significant buffs going into Super, universal crossup j. lk (it was char. specific in vanilla.) This mean that after a back throw, or a rh drill, she had a high block 50/50 against all characters, on top of the low 50/50. But the high allowed her to combo into st. strong for significantly more damage, and if blocked, maintain offense due to frame advantage. This meant getting thrown by cammy was scary as fuck, making her up close 50/50 (dive kick or throw) that much scarier.

Her other buff was st. rh being extended, made her footsie tools better.

Her one nerf, DP going from 150 -> 100 was only a nerf in relation to her vanilla character, but in compared to overall damage nerfs in super her output remained proportionate.

I think she was high upper mid tier in vanilla, damage going down in super while hers remained the same for the most part, and a weakened ryu/sagat (who i felt she went 5/5 with in vanilla) meant she got a winning matchup vs. the previous games top tier along with akuma (i think in super she goes 6/4 vs. akuma/sagat/ryu, ken is the only shoto she goes 5/5.) The crossup j. lk was big because it turned her into magneto. So in Super, I can definitely say she was TOP TIER for sure. When i started talking about how good she was, people used to think i was dumb for saying she was so amazing, but as time went on people started to realize what a beast she was. For what it's worth, if she had her Super incarnation in AE, she'd STILL be top tier, since I'm 100% sure she'd have a winning matchup vs. the twins, mak, and SLIGHTLY lose to fei 4.5/5.5 (fei getting 400 damage meterless combo on her is friggin good lol.) Also she BODIES Viper (super.)

*sigh* I wish capcom left her alone :/

edit - Please do not look to James Chen for any representation of Cammy as a character, he's a great guy but honestly doesn't know what he's talking about. For what it's worth, I learned cammy originally from Buk, who pretty much designed how she's meant to be played while Chen was the most vocal complainer.

 

[Spiderjericho]

Or there aren't any real competitive alternatives except to play old games? Probably why they play MVC3, despite x-factor or Phoenix. Or SSFIV AE (case in point Gootecks, Steve H, Arturo, etc).

But AE tournament at Evo had the most entrance. And most of the viewers come to watch it. Not to take anything away from MVC3, as it's a popular game in the community.

 

[Rice-Eater]

Or there aren't any real competitive alternatives except to play old games? Probably why they play MVC3, despite x-factor or Phoenix. Or SSFIV AE (case in point Gootecks, Steve H, Arturo, etc).

But AE tournament at Evo had the most entrance. And most of the viewers come to watch it. Not to take anything away from MVC3, as it's a popular game in the community.

SF4 is the game that revived the community, it won't take a backseat to any game that easily.