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Super Street Fighter 4 |OT3| BACK OF THE BUS, SAGAT!

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O

Onion_Relish

Member
Satyamdas said:
You're still looking at the trials as existing for the sole purpose of being used in matches, when this implication is nowhere to be found in the game or elsewhere. Where is it explicitly stated or even implied that the trial mode combos are max damage or are necessary for use while fighting?
Click to expand...

Lets be real here. They are giving you moves, but they dont expect you to use them? If that was the developpers goal, then thats fine. Some random japanese guy is programming the trials and says "boy, this combo is pretty useless but it will be fun to add just so that people can do it" That is ridiculous. The tacit fact is that if the game engine allows you to do something, it should probably serve a purpose. When it comes right down to it, if Rufus' jab didnt link to his strong, it wouldnt make a lick of difference.

You won't get any argument from me that those specific trials are impractical in a match, but they DO serve a purpose in showing what is possible within the game engine and to get players used to the link timing in the game. How challenging would the mode be if they only included practical, BnB combos? People would breeze through that shit in 10 minutes flat. I'd understand the criticism if practical BnB combos were excluded at the cost of the hard and impractical ones, but that isn't the case. Every single character's BnB's are included in their trials, so I just don't get what the harm is in having some challenging (even if useless in match) combos included?
Click to expand...

I can understand the idea of giving multiple chances to practice tricky or difficult link timing, but is that really such a luxury when it is something that serves so little purpose? Without the wierd or impractical combos, the trial mode would still be a challenge. Ibuki's target combo super jump ultra cancel is an absolute colossal game changer, certainly it would still be included. Ultimately the harm is that by sheer existence these combos vex me. I will admit to being a serial completionist, but that doesnt detract from the fact that quite a few of the combos that stood before me and my platinum were not only needlessly included, but also not fun. Doing Ryu 24 and chin checking dan with the metsu shoryuken gave me a real feeling of elation and accomplishment, doing ryus mp cancels was a waste of time.
 
S

Satyamdas

Banned
Onion_Relish said:
Ultimately the harm is that by sheer existence these combos vex me.
Click to expand...
So you are just an irrational person. I can buy that.

Onion_Relish said:
I will admit to being a serial completionist, but that doesnt detract from the fact that quite a few of the combos that stood before me and my platinum were not only needlessly included, but also not fun.
Click to expand...
Fun is subjective. I had fun even with the silly and impractical combos. So now what?

Did fun somehow become an objectively measurable thing and I missed it?
 
S

Satyamdas

Banned
Onion_Relish said:
I'd hardly call myself irrational. I have clearly pointed out quite a few good reasons why these combos shouldnt exist
Click to expand...
Your reasons are all predicated on them not being useful in a match. I've pointed out that even while impractical, they help with timing and stringing together motions and with showing the possibilities within the engine. This in addition to the fact that combos that are useful in a match are all accounted for in the trials. So yes, being vexed at the inclusion of trials which are not necessary and easily ignored strikes me as a bit irrational.

What it boils down to is that since you had trouble with some trials, and because you won't see them used in a match, and because they aren't fun for you, they shouldn't exist for anybody. Gotcha.

Onion_Relish said:
we agree to disagree
Click to expand...
If you say so.
 
M

MIMIC

Banned
Onion_Relish said:
double ssf4 platinums
haters gonna hate

makotos last challenge can be a cockblock because you can actually cancel into tanden rekki too quickly. If you do that it pushes her too far away no matter how precise you are. You need to time your cancel into his body then you can actually do it with the proper timing.

Also, did ibuku's 24 today first try. Not even fucking joking. After days of trying and failing, i watched a youtube, used the exact handmotion on my stick and pow, first try. I was gobsmacked. I just sat there and watched the ultra going through thinking "this is both awesome and completely anticlimactic"

INDESTRUCTABLE

also worth noting, that means that i have achieved the unachievable dream of a perfect profile. All games at 100% completion (including dlc but not including those 2 games i never played which sucked :3 )
Click to expand...

Congrats. I'm an achievement nut, too. :)

My dumb brother played Tekken 6 under my profile and I'm in the process of finishing that game. Fortunately for me, people say that the achievements aren't too hard. If Microsoft allowed you to erase a game even with some of the achievements completed, I'd totally do it.

Also, I'm glad that I got all of the achievements for "1 vs. 100" as quickly as I did because, as far as I know, there are no plans to bring it back to Xbox Live. :( That game was REALLY fun.....AND it was pretty popular.

And regarding the trials.....oh my God. I bitched a moaned about that a LONG time ago (also, in the Vanilla thread) so I don't even want to relive any of that hell. lol

_dementia said:
Fuerte's SF4 Hard Trial 5 was some fucked up troll shit.

Fierce Punch
Fierce Punch
Fierce Punch

What. The fuck.
Seriously how would anyone know they'd have to run cancel it to make it work?
Click to expand...

LOL. I think that trial (in Vanilla) is what made me pick up Fuerte.




Fake edit (after reading more comments):

Also, I think the practicality of the trials in actual matches is character dependent. I remember that one of Ryu's trials is just silly because it burns all his meter and doesn't really do any damage, IIRC. But Fuerte's last trial: if you land a Focus Attack and don't have Ultra, his RSF by far does the most damage of anything he's capable of.

But overall, I'd liken the trials to playing a game of HORSE: fun, but should never come as a priority unless you can do it 99% of the time and it doesn't put you at any type of disadvantage.
 
K

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
I'm tearing up here. This has been one of the most entertaining streams in a while. So insightful about the history of CF.
 
AZ Greg

AZ Greg

Member
Onion_Relish said:
Lets be real here. They are giving you moves, but they dont expect you to use them? If that was the developpers goal, then thats fine. Some random japanese guy is programming the trials and says "boy, this combo is pretty useless but it will be fun to add just so that people can do it" That is ridiculous. The tacit fact is that if the game engine allows you to do something, it should probably serve a purpose. When it comes right down to it, if Rufus' jab didnt link to his strong, it wouldnt make a lick of difference.
Click to expand...

Saty is wrong a lot, well, most of the time actually, but that's not the point!

However, he's on the money this time. Not only, like he said, does Capcom never try and pretend that this is some training type mode, they even call it "Challenge Mode." If you can't interpret from there that it's simply another facet of the game to entertain the gamer, and not necessarily prepare him for EVO (Or even simply play his/her character properly), then I guess you should also be up in arms about the inclusion of things like the barrel bonus stage. I mean, that isn't preparing us for tournament level play, what the hell Capcom!

As for what I quoted of yours, your line about something being in the game engine needing to serve a purpose is just wrong on multiple levels. I'm not going to get into how it would hurt the game's flexibility and the player's enjoyment because that should be common sense. But the other thing you have to remember is that it's not as easy as Capcom saying "Oh hey, let's removed all these unnecessary combos that aren't practical in a competitive match!" It would require retooling of the engine. They aren't in there because some developer likes obscure combos, they are in there as a result of other, sometimes more practical, combos. Just look at Vega, for example. One of his BnBs is:

- Cl.St.HP > Cr.MP xx EX Wall Dive

But you can also do, and it's one of the trials:

- Cl.St.HP > Cr.LP > Cr.MP xx EX Wall Dive

It really serves no purpose because it does less damage thanks to scaling. Combined with the increased difficulty of adding that link, it's virtually pointless. But the reason it works, again, isn't because some Japanese developer gets a kick out of adding useless combos. It works because both Vega's Cr.LP and Cr.MP are 4 frames. In order to eliminate that "useless" combo you'd have to start tweaking the properties of his moves. Do you make Cl.St.HP leave Vega at less of an advantage on hit and thus eliminate one of his best moves in terms of combos and scoring damage? Do you do something bizarre like make his Cr.LP 5 frames so that combo doesn't work but keep his Cr.MP at 4 frames (lol)?

Challenge mode is simply Capcom understanding the flexibility of their engine and utilizing it to give us another mode to keep us entertained. And even with all that said, it's not like the mode is completely useless in terms of learning practical things either. Not only, like others have mentioned, do you get the more practical BnBs early on, but you also learn what links. And regardless of the practicality of the particular combo you learned it on, you can apply it to something more practical of your own.
 
hikarutilmitt

hikarutilmitt

Member
Satyamdas said:
You're still looking at the trials as existing for the sole purpose of being used in matches, when this implication is nowhere to be found in the game or elsewhere. Where is it explicitly stated or even implied that the trial mode combos are max damage or are necessary for use while fighting? And what is the big deal with hard or impractical combos in addition to each character's BnB combos, which are ALL included? How does some silly combo detract from anything? Too hard? Don't do it. Impractical? Don't do it in a match.

You won't get any argument from me that those specific trials are impractical in a match, but they DO serve a purpose in showing what is possible within the game engine and to get players used to the link timing in the game. How challenging would the mode be if they only included practical, BnB combos? People would breeze through that shit in 10 minutes flat. I'd understand the criticism if practical BnB combos were excluded at the cost of the hard and impractical ones, but that isn't the case. Every single character's BnB's are included in their trials, so I just don't get what the harm is in having some challenging (even if useless in match) combos included?
Click to expand...

I will defend to my last breath that the trials are to learn the game and not just hand you combos and say "here, go play". The trials in the SFEX are the same way where you learn a few actually useful combos early in the set but later get to things that are more complicated and, typically, more for showing off or learning some kind of timing or restriction to work around creatively. I mean geez, there were ones where you had to stay in the air or keep your opponent in the air for 10 seconds while you had infinite meter!

I will also state that Ryu's cl.MP > FADC > cl.MP > FADC > cl.MP xx mp SRK is what finally made the timing and general method to FADC click with me.
 
H

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Oh my god.


Two things:

1. Combos exist primarily because the engine allows them to exist. Not everything is a predefined target combo, nor should it be. Do you lose sleep at night knowing you can level 2 focus crumple, c lk xx hadouken xx level 2 ex focus crumple, c lk xx hadouken level 2 ex focus crumple ultra 1 with Ryu for full meter burn and only 255 damage?

2. Achievements wouldn't be achievements if they were easy. I have no sympathy for OCD types who insist on getting everything yet expect it all to fall on their lap.
 
T

The Take Out Bandit

Member
Hitokage said:
Stop bitching already.
Click to expand...

I will when you stop crying lagswitch. ;)

TheSeks said:
But bitching is what TTOB does best. ;)
Click to expand...

YES! Finally someone recognizes my natural abilities. :D

Oichi said:
TToB, once a scrub always a scrub. :p
Click to expand...

Reno, always up for talking trash; but never putting that catcher's mitt he calls face in front of the fist.

Charge characters were actually created for those who COULDN'T do fireball and dragon punch motions.
Click to expand...

SF2 motions are so pervasive now (crossing over into ARPGs and other genres) most folks can perform them. If you can't pull off the motion, then keep practicing. This stuff wasn't second nature in 1992 either. :\

I'm not saying DO IT WAH WAH WAH. I'm just saying - it might be worth considering given all the changes they've been making.

haunts said:
Would you guys buy a Street Fighter 5 built on MT Framework that was pretty similar to SF4 roster and gameplay wise? ie: updated graphics with a few new additions.
Click to expand...

Nope.

Every new Capcom fighter this generation has been fugly. SSF4 could maybe get a pass if they'd tone down the creepy texture maps on the character skin. I didn't like it in Tekken on the PSX, I don't like it in my SF game. >:|

MvC3 really doesn't do anything for me visually. Though some of the production art from whatsisname is awesome - dude that used to work for SNK, and the chick that's been doing a lot of anime designs recently. Oh hell. . . Shinkirou and Kinu?

In a perfect world Capcom would rise to the challenge and make a high definition sprite based SF5, base the online play off of GGPO so I can play by reflex (not mash crap out because I can't rely on the netcode to get the message), and offer an EO/ISM system for the Ono level changes that cater to new players. The softened inputs still cheese me off.

Call my execution sloppy all day, I'll still tell you ending a QCF in UF (2369 for you nu school players) accidentally is not in the same zip code as a 360 motion; so why am I getting a 360 motion move? If my execution is bad I'd rather a low risk move come out, like in the previous titles, than a high risk easily punishable move.

Also note all my impressions are from online play, since there's nobody to play locally. :|
 
S

Satyamdas

Banned
hikarutilmitt said:
I will also state that Ryu's cl.MP > FADC > cl.MP > FADC > cl.MP xx mp SRK is what finally made the timing and general method to FADC click with me.
Click to expand...
But it's not practical to use in a match!!!! It shouldn't exist!! Stupid developers just put it in there to torture meeeee!!

I just can't fathom why Capcom won't fully flesh out their mission/trial modes. It can't take THAT much money/time to implement, and seeing how popular their games are it could only help in preventing some players from giving up too early when they can't figure stuff out.
 
T

The Take Out Bandit

Member
Hitokage said:
Oh, I definitely agree that Capcom needs to put proper tutorials in their fighting games.
Click to expand...

That would be a good idea.

All joking aside, your Chun Li is greato! As is your T. Hawk. I was pleased to see you at full capacity and not held back by a pad.

Dammit, I just can't quit you Hokan! D:

I learned some new stuff playing against Unison tonight...
 
D

DarkoMaledictus

Tier Whore
haunts said:
Would you guys buy a Street Fighter 5 built on MT Framework that was pretty similar to SF4 roster and gameplay wise? ie: updated graphics with a few new additions.
Click to expand...

I would buy it of course, but I would rather they made a new engine...not very found of the MT framework.
 
D

DarkoMaledictus

Tier Whore
haunts said:
me too. lol. >_>

though, id love a Sf5 that was more like 3rd Strike with a ton of new characters and only a few familiar faces tho I know that will never happen.
Click to expand...


Well interesting as that might be it would kill sales :(
 
T

The Abominable Snowman

Member
2eevrk8.gif
Well, MvC3 was a good distraction but im back with the winning party now
2eevrk8.giff


Playable Online is sooo good
 
J

Joekage

Member
Late night XBL ranked is the biggest cess pool of scrubs I've ever seen in my entire life. God I wish I knew how to properly troll online and actually win. My mashed DP's never come out or anything. Sigh, I can never be as good at this as BlackXXHawkXXDown..
 
U

USD

Member
If you didn't know already, Saturday and Sunday (Feb 26-27) is GVN Winter Brawl 5 in Philadelphia, which will be streamed by Team Sp00ky. While some events will be much larger than others, the official tourney list is huge:

Super Street Fighter IV
Marvel vs. Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds
Tekken 6
BlazBlue: Continuum Shift
SoulCalibur IV
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
Guilty Gear XX: Accent Core
Melty Blood: Act Cadenza*

*Not sure whether this is a mistype, or if they are actually going with Act Cadenza over the latest version, Actress Again. I'm assuming the former.

Apparently there is a special AE event the day before the tourney, but doubtful that it will be streamed.

Also this Sunday (or technically Saturday, for the US) is NSB 21 in Japan, bringing you more 3v3 AE action. The last AE tournament was incredible, so expect another great one. The tourney is scheduled to start at 10 PM EST** (Sat Feb 26), so around the time the first day of Winter Brawl is winding down, NSB 21 will be starting up. Got enough stream monster in you to go back-to-back?

**12 PM GMT+9 Sunday in actual Japan. Expect the stream to be up at least hour before then, probably closer to 2 or 3.

NSB will also be streaming another 3v3 tourney at LOOP Kasugai the day before, Sat Feb 26. The tourney is scheduled for 1AM-5AM EST (3PM-7PM Japan time), so between NSB and Team Sp00ky, you've got Saturday and Sunday covered.
 
T

The Take Out Bandit

Member
zlatko said:
I asked earlier, but why do you spell Hakan this way ?
Click to expand...

Early translation error, and it's stuck on me.

I have a GIF response I need to make, but curse my lack of Photoshop. :(


USD said:
If you didn't know already, Saturday and Sunday (Feb 26-27) is GVN Winter Brawl 5 in Philadelphia, which will be streamed by Team Sp00ky. While some events will be much larger than others, the official tourney list is huge:

Super Street Fighter IV
Marvel vs. Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds
Tekken 6
BlazBlue: Continuum Shift
SoulCalibur IV
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
Guilty Gear XX: Accent Core
Melty Blood: Act Cadenza*

*Not sure whether this is a mistype, or if they are actually going with Act Cadenza over the latest version, Actress Again. I'm assuming the former.

Apparently there is a special AE event the day before the tourney, but doubtful that it will be streamed.

Also this Sunday (or technically Saturday, for the US) is NSB 21 in Japan, bringing you more 3v3 AE action. The last AE tournament was incredible, so expect another great one. The tourney is scheduled to start at 11 PM EST** (Sat Feb 26), so around the time the first day of Winter Brawl is winding down, NSB 21 will be starting up. Got enough stream monster in you to go back-to-back?

**1 PM GMT+9 Sunday in actual Japan. Expect the stream to be up at least hour before then, probably closer to 2 or 3.
Click to expand...

This looks awesome.

I found out about it too late, otherwise I would have gone. Get my ass kicked in BB:CS and ass kicked through mouth in 3S, and watch all the cool stuff.

Looking forward to the streams.
 
S

Shito

Member
For Makoto and Akuma lovers, some casual matches between VRyu and Tokido during last week-end's Beat-By Contest:

1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I10KDkeaF7o
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqOQ6tL6O9o
3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80h72sdonuo
4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JzvTK0Ftk4
5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPa50zzJR-0
6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Isqh7ajtk7I
7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utKCXl_U1dg
8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCxYbthBmxU

Console version, so a really bad match-up for Makoto (and it shows!), but VRyu handles himself quite nicely, despite an awful lot of missed IATs.
 
U

USD

Member
Speaking of the Makoto match-up, Momochi's view on Makoto's match-ups in AE:

4:6
Fei-Long, Yun

5:5
Ken, Sagat, Zangief, Akuma, Chun-Li*

Advantage
Everyone else

*He did list some unfamiliar match-ups that could possibly fit into this category: Ibuki, Adon, Rufus, Guile and Cammy

Fei-Long
-cl.MP → Chicken Wing works on Makoto
-Flame Kick FADC Chicken Wing does full damage (280 to be exact)
-Fei's horizontal push is not good for Makoto
-Not many good punishes for Rekka
-On throw whiffs, there's a good chance Chicken Wing won't hit, but when used to run away, it's hard to punish. Try to land UC2
-UC choice: To counter Rekka, UC1. All (non-EX) versions are punishable on the second hit. Though overall, he favors UC2

Yun
-With an equally-skilled opponent, your only option is to rush that shit down.
-As for Yun's defensive options, you can properly punish blocked Up Kicks
-Your options when Yun gets in: bear with it or run away. Regardless, since Yun has more options to win, it's probably best to go for the biggest returns
-UC choice: UC2
 
N

NinajHeartless

Member
USD said:
If you didn't know already, Saturday and Sunday (Feb 26-27) is GVN Winter Brawl 5 in Philadelphia, which will be streamed by Team Sp00ky. While some events will be much larger than others, the official tourney list is huge:

Super Street Fighter IV
Marvel vs. Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds
Tekken 6
BlazBlue: Continuum Shift
SoulCalibur IV
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
Guilty Gear XX: Accent Core
Melty Blood: Act Cadenza*

*Not sure whether this is a mistype, or if they are actually going with Act Cadenza over the latest version, Actress Again. I'm assuming the former.

Apparently there is a special AE event the day before the tourney, but doubtful that it will be streamed.

Also this Sunday (or technically Saturday, for the US) is NSB 21 in Japan, bringing you more 3v3 AE action. The last AE tournament was incredible, so expect another great one. The tourney is scheduled to start at 11 PM EST** (Sat Feb 26), so around the time the first day of Winter Brawl is winding down, NSB 21 will be starting up. Got enough stream monster in you to go back-to-back?

**1 PM GMT+9 Sunday in actual Japan. Expect the stream to be up at least hour before then, probably closer to 2 or 3.
Click to expand...

I'll be at Winter Brawl 5 repping NeoGAF in MvC3 and Super.

Gonna try and get that fight money, or at least win a single match :p
 
hikarutilmitt

hikarutilmitt

Member
Satyamdas said:
But it's not practical to use in a match!!!! It shouldn't exist!! Stupid developers just put it in there to torture meeeee!!

I just can't fathom why Capcom won't fully flesh out their mission/trial modes. It can't take THAT much money/time to implement, and seeing how popular their games are it could only help in preventing some players from giving up too early when they can't figure stuff out.
Click to expand...

They should get AM2 to help them make a worthwhile training mode. Like, a training mode training mode. Would be hot stuff to get one even close to VF4Evo. Hell, even Arc has started going in a similar direction with BlazBlue.
 
E

El Sloth

Banned
NinajHeartless said:
I'll be at Winter Brawl 5 repping NeoGAF in MvC3 and Super.

Gonna try and get that fight money, or at least win a single match :p
Click to expand...
I said it in the other thread, but you need to money match Tokido in Marvel. FT10.

Do it for the hype. Do it for GAF.
 
U

USD

Member
El Sloth said:
I said it in the other thread, but you need to money match Tokido in Marvel. FT10.

Do it for the hype. Do it for GAF.
Click to expand...
Tokido's not going to Winter Brawl. He's going to Final Round two weeks later, though.
 
U

USD

Member
NSB will also be streaming another 3v3 tourney at LOOP Kasugai the day before, Sat Feb 26. The tourney is scheduled for 1AM-5AM EST*, so between NSB and Team Sp00ky, you've got Saturday and Sunday covered.

*3PM-7PM Japan time
 
E

El Sloth

Banned
USD said:
Tokido's not going to Winter Brawl. He's going to Final Round two weeks later, though.
Click to expand...
Bah, I was certain Sp00ky had mentioned on the CTF stream that he might be showing up. He must have been talking about Final Round and I misheard him.
 
B

black_vegeta

Member
USD said:
NSB will also be streaming another 3v3 tourney at LOOP Kasugai the day before, Sat Feb 26. The tourney is scheduled for 1AM-5AM EST*, so between NSB and Team Sp00ky, you've got Saturday and Sunday covered.

*3PM-7PM Japan time
Click to expand...

Got a roster lineup this time my good man?

Got my lotion ready for furious fapping if Maeda is playing again.
 
U

USD

Member
About two weeks old, but haven't seen this posted. Apparently Hsien Chang was in Taiwan. For the Gamerbee videos, three parts, but two matches:

Hsien Chang (Yun) vs Gamerbee (Adon) 1
Hsien Chang (Yun) vs Gamerbee (Adon) 2
Hsien Chang (Yun) vs Gamerbee (Adon) 3
Hsien Chang (Yun) vs MirrorR (Makoto)
Hsien Chang (Yun) vs lsy9983 (Dictator)

Also, fixed the time for NSB 21. Tourney starts at 10PM EST (not 11PM). Was looking at the BBCS2 NSB time.

black_vegeta said:
Got a roster lineup this time my good man?

Got my lotion ready for furious fapping if Maeda is playing again.
Click to expand...
Nothing yet.
 
M

MIMIC

Banned
I played a non-annoying Blanka that had a sizable grasp of Blanka's combos and mixup shenanigans. He didn't play lame so maybe that's why I enjoyed playing with him. lol

He could do hop into ambiguous Ultra. @_@ First time I ever had that done against me......but I guessed right ^_^
 
C

Corky

Nine out of ten orphans can't tell the difference.
MIMIC said:
I played a non-annoying Blanka that had a sizable grasp of Blanka's combos and mixup shenanigans. He didn't play lame so maybe that's why I enjoyed playing with him. lol

He could do hop into ambiguous Ultra. @_@ First time I ever had that done against me......but I guessed right ^_^
Click to expand...

How do you do crossup hop into ultra?
 
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