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Super Street Fighter 4 |OT3| BACK OF THE BUS, SAGAT!
- Thread starter Teknopathetic
- Start date
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To be clear, I don't meant disrespect to those players, I think those characters don't have steep learning curves and some of the more obnoxious tools is all(not a bad thing at all). I'd rather have a competent character than a character that takes a shit ton of practice to get good with on a casually competitive level. I don't need fulfillment from pulling off some technically difficult stuff but rather from bodying everyone that crosses my path.
black_vegeta
Member
Threi said:
Yes, really.
I don't know how to execute properly when it comes to Viper and Ibuki, BUT for those who have their execution down to a T, then those characters become easy mode.
Everytime an "easy mode" post is brought up, you jump straight to Rog. He's not just the only characters with a Staples "THAT WAS EASY" button yo.
Look how long it took for Rawg to finally get paid and win a major.
ok. Since you avoided the definition that "easy mode" is in reference to a risk/reward ratio (something that Balrog FAR excels over the rest of the cast in this game), let's refer to easymode as ease of inputs. Balrog has some of the easiest links and hitconfirms in the game, solely due to his jabs. Bison at the very least requires some sense of timing for his c.short link. The extent of Balrog's input difficulty is the fact that you have to make sure of when you are ending charge moves in down-forward, or forward. The risk/reward for something like this however, is skewed heavily in balrog's favor though when you compare that same risk to another character like vega, where ending in downforward, forward, or upforward result in completely different moves, whereas Balrog's are largely the same.
strange thing is you said all chars are easymode (input wise) "If you know how to execute properly". That makes no sense. So basically hard chars are easymode too if you learn them? Knowing the char doesn't make them any objectively easier to play. Gen still requires dexterity, whether you know how to use him or not.
Also...the whole "if this char isn't so good why hasn't anyone won a major with them" argument is SO stupid.
Definitely my pet peeve. Nobody has won a major with Rog because Justin Wong and other top players who choose to play other characters were there. If Wong wanted to main Rog then he would win tourneys with him. It's not because Rog isn't tops, but because he just didn't like him for whatever reason. Rufus isn't tops either.
strange thing is you said all chars are easymode (input wise) "If you know how to execute properly". That makes no sense. So basically hard chars are easymode too if you learn them? Knowing the char doesn't make them any objectively easier to play. Gen still requires dexterity, whether you know how to use him or not.
I jump to Rog because he requires the least amount of effort to win in the game. Simple as that. It's in his character design.black_vegeta said:
Also...the whole "if this char isn't so good why hasn't anyone won a major with them" argument is SO stupid.
Definitely my pet peeve. Nobody has won a major with Rog because Justin Wong and other top players who choose to play other characters were there. If Wong wanted to main Rog then he would win tourneys with him. It's not because Rog isn't tops, but because he just didn't like him for whatever reason. Rufus isn't tops either.
black_vegeta
Member
Moving forward...
Its fine though, the reason Rog has his tools (and most other charge chars) is because his moves require startup time, you can't do them on demand like motion chars. It's the only way they would be competitive at all. Charge chars without normals or other strengths to back them up would pretty much be terrible.
But unfortunately a lot of people who play motion chars fail to realize that, and thus we get the bitching about "Super charge fighter 4 being too lame", and so Capcom decides to listen to them, and put in more fucking divekick 3s chars to shut them up.
Fun times ahead :/
But unfortunately a lot of people who play motion chars fail to realize that, and thus we get the bitching about "Super charge fighter 4 being too lame", and so Capcom decides to listen to them, and put in more fucking divekick 3s chars to shut them up.
Fun times ahead :/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTL1YwXjzAk&feature=player_embedded
New funny/cool moments for ssf4/mvc3.
New funny/cool moments for ssf4/mvc3.
black_vegeta
Member
Threi said:
<3
The twins can be beat with the proper strategy. I saw Maeda Taison (Rog player) take on a few such as Kindevu and Nemo. It's still a tough matchup.
I'm more in fear of dat Mak. Buffs galore.
black_vegeta
Member
Imm0rt4l said:
Built-in TE sticks into the table, nice.
Also @ the YT comment "where are the stolen burgers?" LOL
black_vegeta said:
Seriously, with the type of crap v-ryu is finding in console Makoto even right at this very moment makes me fear for how he'll utilize AE Mak's new toys. Hell, there's this thread despite the fact that he hasn't even touched AE Mak yet!
Cloudius12
Member
I bet justin Wong doesn't have a lair like that =PImm0rt4l said:
the_log_ride
Member
Corky said:
An opponent has to be brain dead if this strategy works against them. Time to head over to XBL.
It would be hilarious if Sim had Rog's cr.LP (stretchy and non-stretchy)
AkumaHokoru
Member
yall are bugging.
Easy mode:
Characters that are easy to win with at any level
1. Balrog
2. Bison
3. Rufus
4. Honda
End of Easy mode.
Easy mode:
Characters that are easy to win with at any level
1. Balrog
2. Bison
3. Rufus
4. Honda
End of Easy mode.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Threi said:
We've been over this. You're using risk/reward incorrectly.
black_vegeta
Member
Dexa said:
Mash dat lp srk son.
sixteen-bit
Member
Not that he needs them!black_vegeta said:
kevo_huevo
Member
sorry, i don't know everyones mains here, but i sometimes think honda gets overrated by non honda players because of damage output. he can get zoned out pretty easily and his anti air options are pretty bad aside from ex headbutt. i think he might be the toughest charge character to get in with.
I'm not. I was going by black_vegeta's definition of what easymode is (which by his definition strictly related to the physical dexterity required to play the character)DryEyeRelief said:
My definition of Risk/Reward hasn't changed. When weighing the options of certain moves a character has, how much damage it can lead to, and how much damage you can suffer as a result if it doesn't go that way.
and once again, Yun is indeed very well off in that department. Mixups/Specials that are hard to punish yet do a good deal of damage/set themselves up for another mixup situation are high reward for little risk. That does not change whether he's in AE or Vanilla.
BotoxAgent
Member
AkumaHokoru said:
hey, where's Chun? XD
black_vegeta
Member
_dementia said:
Seriously.
The guy makes me sick to my stomach with his gawdlike skills.
the_log_ride
Member
Dexa said:
U MAD
Let's not kid ourselves. We all know who the easy mode characters are.
Balrog is total easy mode. I checked out my ranked character win rate with him (I ranked everyone up to C) and he's 68%, the 2nd highest not counting my mains. The highest is Sakura with 70%, but I wouldn't consider her "easy mode" though.
That jab of his is INSANELY good.
Balrog is total easy mode. I checked out my ranked character win rate with him (I ranked everyone up to C) and he's 68%, the 2nd highest not counting my mains. The highest is Sakura with 70%, but I wouldn't consider her "easy mode" though.
That jab of his is INSANELY good.
B1gg_Randall
Member
Shhhh... Leave Chun Li alone.BotoxAgent said:
black_vegeta
Member
MIMIC said:
That's because you are doing it right.
black_vegeta said:
Well that's my point. If you already have a good set of skills and are pretty knowledgeable with Street Fighter, then Balrog is going to be pretty much unbeatable. There's no real learning curve with him since there isn't that much else to learn; every thing is played on HIS terms for the most part.
I found Balrog to be an absolute breeze, and I NEVER play with him.
N00b friendly? That's a different issue, some would say.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Threi said:
Mixups/Specials that are hard to punish yet do a good deal of damage/set themselves up for another mixup situation describes a good amount of the cast.
In Vanilla he would yield smaller reward (his own damage) and higher risk (other characters damage), so no. It certainly does change.
If we are going to make theories of situations that haven't happened (Yun in Vanilla) you can also argue that any opponent in that game has their risk/reward skewed as well due to Yun. "Risk" is not exclusively defined to raw numbers on a punish. You are failing to include the probability of getting punished in the first place. Also keep in mind that the more amount of tools a character has (and in turn the harder said tools are to punish), the risk/reward shifts away from the opponent. It becomes a higher risk to punish for the same reward.
You are aware that vanilla Sagat's sole worst matchup in that game was Akuma right? His tier ranking did not change. He was, and still is able to shut down a large portion of the cast with his mixup options, his health unchanged from both versions. According to you because of his low health the reward was not worth the risk due to the high damage output of other characters, but that isn't the case. Akuma was hell for vanilla Sagat players.
So no Yun's risk/reward will not have changed. There is a point where damage comes into play and outweighs the options (which doesn't happen to such an extreme in a game like SF4 anyways, maybe in other 2d fighters), but if plopped in vanilla he still has the tools to shutdown other characters, and considering the characters who were high tier in that game Yun theoretically shouldn't have any problem at all.
But once again I didn't respond last time because getting into an argument over a "what if" scenario is stupid. But here I am now so yeah....
You are aware that vanilla Sagat's sole worst matchup in that game was Akuma right? His tier ranking did not change. He was, and still is able to shut down a large portion of the cast with his mixup options, his health unchanged from both versions. According to you because of his low health the reward was not worth the risk due to the high damage output of other characters, but that isn't the case. Akuma was hell for vanilla Sagat players.
So no Yun's risk/reward will not have changed. There is a point where damage comes into play and outweighs the options (which doesn't happen to such an extreme in a game like SF4 anyways, maybe in other 2d fighters), but if plopped in vanilla he still has the tools to shutdown other characters, and considering the characters who were high tier in that game Yun theoretically shouldn't have any problem at all.
But once again I didn't respond last time because getting into an argument over a "what if" scenario is stupid. But here I am now so yeah....
Threi said:
Charge character fit perfectly within the defensive based engine of IV once you take ultra FADC out of the equation, gotta admit.
I think the real reason why many find the game lame or boring is the obvious limited amount of offensive tools versus a game like Marvel 3. It's incredibly obvious as to how tame the IV serie is now that people see Marvel 3 on stream all the time. Nerfing the good tools/combos of a given character doesn't help in changing the perception either, as Ono and his team prefer to nerf options than give them to everyone. If there is any balance change coming to AE, it's going to be nerf to Yun and Yang? Rather have everyone being mediocre/average than ridiculous.The real problem is the engine of IV which was always strange and slow, but most people didn't really notice since they weren't hardcore players or hadn't played SF in years. Offense is so risky within the engine because of weak pushblock and hit stun+ wide reversal window, that the safest and only real way to generate it is by hit confirming with jabs into a special over and over again ( and even then, damage scaling is severe so overall damage output is rather low). Yun is the exception because he's got more offensive option than everyone else introduced in IV so far, and yet he's overpowered in AE because of how mediocre most character are compared to him.
Unlike many on the Marvel 3 thread, I haven't turned my back on SFIV and I won't say it's ass or boring as shit, but I do worry about AE bringing the hype back to IV and SF V obviously. It's going to be much harder to get good sales if V is going to as slow and tame as IV imo.
black_vegeta
Member
I'm surprised any Captivate SSF4 info has not been leaked.
Why can't it be the 14th already!?
Why can't it be the 14th already!?
Slamtastic
Member
12th is when the embargo ends.black_vegeta said:
If we're talking personal dates we which it could be already, I wish it was the 19th >_>.
black_vegeta
Member
Slamtastic said:
Ah damn, 2 days earlier than I expected.
hitsugi said:
Probably. SSFFo needs the hype.
sixteen-bit
Member
If Chun Li is easy mode I haven't unlocked it yetBotoxAgent said:
black_vegeta
Member
_dementia said:
The Relix special.
Backdash>c.hk.
stabicron7
Member
black_vegeta said:
lol
DryEyeRelief
Member
Threi said:
You've never played a good Akuma if you think Super Akuma is unchanged. Vanilla Akuma was hell for a bunch of characters, not just Sagat. He was Viper level in terms of insanity, two wrong guesses and you were stunned and dead. In Super, you have to have to be near pixels and on the wrong end of several mixups before being in the same condition. He's top tier in Super for different reasons (although rooted in the same strengths) because surprise surprise the top tier in Super are of a different likeness, including characters like Honda and Guile.
A better method of measurement would be Viper no? A mid tier character in vanilla who remained relatively unchanged. In AE she's one of the better characters. I think I'm right putting Yun somewhere above that.
You're incredibly vague. What is it about Yun that makes his cheapness transcend games? You sound more like the victim of ono tweets more than anything. RF, a Sagat player, has stated that in AE, Yun is one of Sagat's easier matchups. You think he wouldn't have a problem against vanilla Sagat, Ryu, Akuma or Rog? Try again because believe it or not, AE Yun is not impossible to beat.
If you're not going into specifics, I'll force you to. What is it about Yun that makes him cheaper than Yang?
sixteen-bit
Member
I thought the Relix special was lagswitching?black_vegeta said:
Spiderjericho
Member
Question, where does Mike Ross get his fighting-game shirts from?
It's not Kineda/broken tier/triumvir it looks like.
It's not Kineda/broken tier/triumvir it looks like.
black_vegeta
Member
LULZ_dementia said:
No doubt, laggy sob.
BotoxAgent
Member
Relix with the "unblockable" hasanshus, lol
sixteen-bit
Member
I see him wear shirts from Meatbun.us from time to time.Spiderjericho said:
What reasons are that? He does well against the current top tier of SSF4 for different reasons than the current top tier of Vanilla, that is true. That doesn't really address your initial claim though, that it is due to risk/reward being a direct correlation of damage output. How Akuma does against Honda and Guile is irrelevant. How about how he does against SSF4 Sagat? Despite Sagat having his damage nerfed, the matchup is relatively the same, if not better for Sagat. That directly flies in the theory that raw damage output is what determines matches. It's toolsets of the characters.DryEyeRelief said:
Viper is a poor measurement to base anything on. Viper for almost the entirety of vanilla was largely unexplored, it wasn't until super that we were starting to get a grasp of what she was capable of.DryEyeRelief said:
Viper may have not changed much, but the Viper player did. This is why I said it's stupid to argue over hypothetical scenarios, there are too many variables to account for.
Ok sure let's put Yun in Vanilla. Do we do so with the knowledge we had when vanilla launched or the knowledge we have now?
Don't put words into my mouth. I never said his "cheapness" transcends games. I stated that his strengths as a character would benefit him in all of the versions of street fighter, much like, say, Akuma. That is not to say that AE Yun plopped into another game would be weak, but it is to say that vanilla SF4 is not one of those games. Not that much has changed between the versions, what has developed most of all has been the mindset of players, and their abilities to make use of tools characters have in this game. Yun, has those tools.DryEyeRelief said:
One person in Japan says that Yun is fine. Many others say he dominates the cast. Until I see that Sagat player beating down Yuns left and right I will go with the majority on this one.
Yun has safe specials, ex variants included, fast meter gain, huge damage output when a super is stocked, and fast, easily hit conformable normals. For his pressure he is good defensively, with high priority, fast reversals that the opponent has to be aware of.DryEyeRelief said:
And for the record Yang is just as much of a problem as Yun is.
Do you not believe that Yun, nor Yang are top tier? Do you believe that the reaction to AE in both Japan, and America, and the explosion in playerbase for those characters are purely by coincidence? Why are you willfully acting oblivious to the fact that these characters, are indeed more powerful than they should be?
If you think that I am one of those people who are whining about Yun "just because" then please direct your argument elsewhere. My issue with Yun and Yang aren't for the characters themselves, their strengths or weaknesses (because you know what? I have enough sense to know that you should option select crouch tech with c.strong to break up divekick pressure).
My issue with AE is Capcom's attitude. They effectively killed one style of play because either they themselves or the fans they listened to bitched about it. Now we have a strong Yun, Yang, and oerbuffed Makoto. Yay more third strike. :/
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