Threi said:
What reasons are that? He does well against the current top tier of SSF4 for different reasons than the current top tier of Vanilla, that is true. That doesn't really address your initial claim though, that it is due to risk/reward being a direct correlation of damage output. How Akuma does against Honda and Guile is irrelevant. How about how he does against SSF4 Sagat? Despite Sagat having his damage nerfed, the matchup is relatively the same, if not better for Sagat. That directly flies in the theory that raw damage output is what determines matches. It's toolsets of the characters.
I never said it was a direct correlation. I said damage is a bigger factor than what you give credit for. You on the other hand disregard it completely in favor of things being "hard to punish", hence me emphasizing it more.
You addressing specific matchups means my points didn't get to you, so I'll explain them further.
"He's top tier in Super for different reasons (although rooted in the same strengths) because surprise surprise the top tier in Super are of a different likeness, including characters like Honda and Guile."
Meaning, the criteria for being a better character in Super Street Fighter IV is different than Street Fighter IV. I think you agree this.
Then this makes your previous point moot:
"You are aware that vanilla Sagat's sole worst matchup in that game was Akuma right? His tier ranking did not change. He was, and still is able to shut down a large portion of the cast with his mixup options, his health unchanged from both versions. According to you because of his low health the reward was not worth the risk due to the high damage output of other characters, but that isn't the case. Akuma was hell for vanilla Sagat players."
It was not that Akuma stayed the same due to the utility of his mixups. It was that the environment of the game shifted and when everything was said and done with the new strengths and weaknesses of every character, Akuma was tops again.
And this makes the idea that Yun would stay the same, disregarding the changes of other characters, naive. Akuma isn't the same. That's why I mentioned Guile and Honda, characters who weren't even touched in the previous version.
Viper is a poor measurement to base anything on. Viper for almost the entirety of vanilla was largely unexplored, it wasn't until super that we were starting to get a grasp of what she was capable of.
Viper may have not changed much, but the Viper player did. This is why I said it's stupid to argue over hypothetical scenarios, there are too many variables to account for.
Don't put words into my mouth. I never said his "cheapness" transcends games. I stated that his strengths as a character would benefit him in all of the versions of street fighter, much like, say, Akuma. That is not to say that AE Yun plopped into another game would be weak, but it is to say that vanilla SF4 is not one of those games. Not that much has changed between the versions, what has developed most of all has been the mindset of players, and their abilities to make use of tools characters have in this game. Yun, has those tools.
Then tell me, what is this new Viper tech that I don't know about.
And it's funny you throw out the knowledge card out there. How much experience do you have fighting Yun?
One person in Japan says that Yun is fine. Many others say he dominates the cast. Until I see that Sagat player beating down Yuns left and right I will go with the majority on this one.
RF (the sagat player) actually said Yun was the best character in the game. Reminding you again, that doesn't make him infallible, incapable of error, have zero weaknesses, picking him means the world comes to an end etc. This Yun you're describing is something from your nightmares, then the actual character.
Yun has safe specials, ex variants included, fast meter gain, huge damage output when a super is stocked, and fast, easily hit conformable normals. For his pressure he is good defensively, with high priority, fast reversals that the opponent has to be aware of.
And for the record Yang is just as much of a problem as Yun is.
Do you not believe that Yun, nor Yang are top tier? Do you believe that the reaction to AE in both Japan, and America, and the explosion in playerbase for those characters are purely by coincidence? Why are you willfully acting oblivious to the fact that these characters, are indeed more powerful than they should be?
This all started actually when I said AE Yun would probably be a B/C rank character in Vanilla to Professor Beef saying he rather fight a field of vanilla Sagats, and you laughed at my claim. So, actually, I'm just waiting for you to prove why Yun is
specifically cheap to the point where he, unlike any other character that's been put in the game, can completely disregard the overall changes to the cast. I think it's a pretty bold claim, considering we've seen characters go from zero to hero and more often than not it's due to
a lack of changes.
Yun is top tier
in AE. He certainly is better than Yang. The way you sized up Yun, you can make a lot of characters in this game scary. You can give me a list of Seth's capabilities or dwell on some specific capability like Juri being able to dash under fireballs. It doesn't tell me anything in context to the rest of the cast, which you seem to often ignore. Also, Geneijin doesn't do a lot of damage. It's the meter building that's the biggest offender, because Yun is one of the only characters in the game who can spend bar with little to no repercussion.
Imm0rt4l said:
Viper is a poor measurement for anything tier related, she has poor normals, but she doesn't really adhere to the rules of Street Fighter so she can be either garbage or GDLK. Viper has always been good, and by that I mean she has always been competitive since she's always had great mixups/mindfuck shenanigans, 50/50 guessingames, damageoutput.
You can't tier mixup characters now? News to me.
