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Super Street Fighter 4 |OT3| BACK OF THE BUS, SAGAT!

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Yellowcorn

Neo Member
I sure as hell hope they patch arcade and home versions...

I'm really surprised this happened, I've been around a long time but the complaining about Yun is far worse than anything before. R2 Sagat? Chun in 3s? Sagat in vanilla?

I fail to see how Yun is more broken than anything we've seen in the past. There is always top tier, why is there so much complaint now?

The mentality of the average person is so much different these days... everything is someone elses fault, nobody is interested in dealing with what they're given. This goes for games, school, work, etc. Ugh.
 

zlatko

Banned
Yellowcorn said:
I sure as hell hope they patch arcade and home versions...

I'm really surprised this happened, I've been around a long time but the complaining about Yun is far worse than anything before. R2 Sagat? Chun in 3s? Sagat in vanilla?

I fail to see how Yun is more broken than anything we've seen in the past. There is always top tier, why is there so much complaint now?

The mentality of the average person is so much different these days... everything is someone elses fault, nobody is interested in dealing with what they're given. This goes for games, school, work, etc. Ugh.

Those other examples weren't done on purpose. Those other games aren't being played with as big of prize pools as SSF4AE is right now. There are sponsors and a lot of money going around, and to make a game intentionally broken for your own personal amusement is not how you help shit grow.

That's just how I see it. Tons of top players feel super discouraged by AE in its current state and were probably on the edge of just leaving it behind altogether if it stays in its current state.
 
pirateben said:
Ono announces a free AE balance patch coming this winter...

Hopefully it'll just be the twins tweaked down or everyone else buffed up. Please don't randomly start nerfing other characters please!

Edit: Beaten!

Is this real life? Is it known whether the arcade cabs will also be updated?

Need to nerf 'Sim more. More startup and recovery on st.HP and B+HK and MK. Inferno should only do 250 dmg, fires should do 30 dmg, and none should go full screen. Oh, and normal Yoga Blasts should be nerfed, they're way too buff as it is.
 

Yellowcorn

Neo Member
zlatko said:
Those other examples weren't done on purpose. Those other games aren't being played with as big of prize pools as SSF4AE is right now. There are sponsors and a lot of money going around, and to make a game intentionally broken for your own personal amusement is not how you help shit grow.

That's just how I see it. Tons of top players feel super discouraged by AE in its current state and were probably on the edge of just leaving it behind altogether if it stays in its current state.

This "on purpose" issue is something else all together. I also fail to see how they can miss so much in other games then suddenly get a bullseye with where they want Yun to be. It's rarely how they intend it to be.

Also, "broken"... I guess I have a different threshold for broken, but to me it would take a lot of 7-3s, 8-2s etc to be "broken"...

The one argument I can side with about Yun... is that suddenly a very good character was added that doesn't quite fit with the pace and feel that SF4 and SSF4 had set, which a lot of people liked.
 
Has there ever been a case of getting salty after you win? Because that happened to me earlier today. I was helping a friend run the local monthlies as usual, but since EVO is going in right now, only one person showed up for AE. So I decide to play some friendlies with some guy before I packed everything up, and I straight body him. 10-3, my Hawk against his Dictator.

After every single match, he complains. "Oh, I wanted to block. Oh, this game is stupid. Oh, why did that hit me," etc. Blaming everybody and every thing except for himself. THEN he went on a small rant about how I should ditch my PS3 and get a 360 because "EVO isn't running things on PS3s anymore, my friend is there and they're all using 360s."

I got so tired of his shit, I just packed up and left before I decided to do something stupid.
 

Yellowcorn

Neo Member
Professor Beef said:
After every single match, he complains. "Oh, I wanted to block. Oh, this game is stupid. Oh, why did that hit me," etc. Blaming everybody and every thing except for himself.

This is what I was talking about a few steps up... this happens with EVERYTHING these days. Screwed up dinner, broken car, bad grades, fail at work, etc.
 

zlatko

Banned
Yellowcorn said:
This "on purpose" issue is something else all together. I also fail to see how they can miss so much in other games then suddenly get a bullseye with where they want Yun to be. It's rarely how they intend it to be.

Also, "broken"... I guess I have a different threshold for broken, but to me it would take a lot of 7-3s, 8-2s etc to be "broken"...

The one argument I can side with about Yun... is that suddenly a very good character was added that doesn't quite fit with the pace and feel that SF4 and SSF4 had set, which a lot of people liked.

So when the developer of the game tells you before it even comes out, and after it comes out, that the team INTENTIONALLY wanted a character that is super god like and hard to overcome like vanilla Sagat, then you think they just stumbled and not bullseyed the mark for making him over powered?

He is 8-2 against Dhalsim for sure. Just look at EVO top placings right now with 13 fei's and 8 yuns. Hell, did you watch Tokido vs Daigo yesterday? Tokido couldn't get a damn combo in any of the rounds they played. It looked like his stick was off, and Tokido is without question one of THE best players out there, and someone who before Yun can stand toe to toe with Daigo.

He's overpowered without question. He needs a nerf as well as Fei. That's my 2 pennies.
 

Yellowcorn

Neo Member
zlatko said:
So when the developer of the game tells you before it even comes out, and after it comes out, that the team INTENTIONALLY wanted a character that is super god like and hard to overcome like vanilla Sagat, then you think they just stumbled and not bullseyed the mark for making him over powered?

He is 8-2 against Dhalsim for sure. Just look at EVO top placings right now with 13 fei's and 8 yuns. Hell, did you watch Tokido vs Daigo yesterday? Tokido couldn't get a damn combo in any of the rounds they played. It looked like his stick was off, and Tokido is without question one of THE best players out there, and someone who before Yun can stand toe to toe with Daigo.

He's overpowered without question. He needs a nerf as well as Fei. That's my 2 pennies.

I'm not saying he isn't the best in the game, I'm just confused at the amount of outrage compared to past tiers. I guess the popularity/cash issues you metioned could be valid, though it doesn't make sense to me.

They worded it like he's 8-2 on the whole cast, which isn't true at all. Not to mention, the high level Yun's we've seen are all high level with other characters..

The match before Daigo was Momochi...who is no slouch. I think Daigo's win is more on the side of a bad match than Yun being broken. If he was really broken, it wouldn't just be Daigo.
 

N4Us

Member
Professor Beef said:
After every single match, he complains. "Oh, I wanted to block. Oh, this game is stupid. Oh, why did that hit me," etc. Blaming everybody and every thing except for himself. THEN he went on a small rant about how I should ditch my PS3 and get a 360 because "EVO isn't running things on PS3s anymore, my friend is there and they're all using 360s."

I've known way too many people like this.
 

Lost Fragment

Obsessed with 4chan
Yellowcorn said:
I'm not saying he isn't the best in the game, I'm just confused at the amount of outrage compared to past tiers. I guess the popularity/cash issues you metioned could be valid, though it doesn't make sense to me.

They worded it like he's 8-2 on the whole cast, which isn't true at all. Not to mention, the high level Yun's we've seen are all high level with other characters..

The match before Daigo was Momochi...who is no slouch. I think Daigo's win is more on the side of a bad match than Yun being broken. If he was really broken, it wouldn't just be Daigo.

Most of the games you compared AE to are from a different era. Except for vanilla Sagat. But people didn't complain about him as much as they complain about characters in AE because vanilla Sagat wasn't as bad. Pretty simple.

As far as the characters from the other games go, it's pretty hard to say "Well people didn't complain as much then, so why are people complaining about characters that are arguably less powerful now?" because, well, that was then, and this is now. Lots of things have changed.
 

zlatko

Banned
Yellowcorn said:
I'm not saying he isn't the best in the game, I'm just confused at the amount of outrage compared to past tiers. I guess the popularity/cash issues you metioned could be valid, though it doesn't make sense to me.

They worded it like he's 8-2 on the whole cast, which isn't true at all. Not to mention, the high level Yun's we've seen are all high level with other characters..

The match before Daigo was Momochi...who is no slouch. I think Daigo's win is more on the side of a bad match than Yun being broken. If he was really broken, it wouldn't just be Daigo.

Past tiers you didn't hear that much outrage because the scene was smaller, and the internet masses weren't out in full force to voice their opinion on the game.

As for the popularity cash not making sense to you think of it this way. Starcraft 2 right now is THE biggest competitive game. Prize pools for that game have been as high as around $100,000 for first place. A sponsored player now for that game can make around $30,000 a year before talking about winnings or streaming, or promotions is what people are stating from that scene. Now imagine if you play that game for 10+ hours a day, working hard at your skills in the match ups, but then you simply lose because of something imbalanced as hell? People would dismiss it quickly and bitch for a fix ASAP.

This is now starting to take case in the fighting game community which is growing and wanting to expand to that level of popularity. No one wants to practice all their match ups non stop, hours upon hours a day, and then lose due to an intentional imbalance for the game. Plus, if 1 thing has a clear advantage over everything else in the game, then you start seeing a shift within those players who DO want to be pro at it. Why practice 12 hours a day learning say Vega, and have a much smaller chance to winning, when you could put that same time into Yun, and have a much higher chance of success thanks to him having so many clear advantages in so many match ups?

Yun does a disservice to the players at the top level who put blood sweat and tears into the game. Most casual/mid level players can't even tap into Yun, so we don't suffer, but even as a stream monster I would have HATED if every stream from here on out was just which Yun or which Fei is going to win this time, and then you start seeing more and MORE of these characters and nothing else.

Hope that sort of clears that up. I do agree people bitching about anything and everything is stupid and it's why Blizzard waits months at a time for trying to even do a balance patch, because they want to see if players can find ways to work around the problems with the tools given to them in SC2. Often players do, but sometimes that isn't the case and changes are made.
 

Yellowcorn

Neo Member
Lost Fragment said:
Most of the games you compared AE to are from a different era. Except for vanilla Sagat. But people didn't complain about him as much as they complain about characters in AE because vanilla Sagat wasn't as bad. Pretty simple.

As far as the characters from the other games go, it's pretty hard to say "Well people didn't complain as much then, so why are people complaining about characters that are arguably less powerful now?" because, well, that was then, and this is now. Lots of things have changed.

I think you can easily find people who disagree about Sagat. It's not* that cut and dry.

From another era of complaining? :p It's more like "this is the same in pretty much every fighting game since the dawn of time, why is the whining so bad this time?"
 
Yellowcorn said:
I think you can easily find people who disagree about Sagat. It's not* that cut and dry.

From another era of complaining? :p It's more like "this is the same in pretty much every fighting game since the dawn of time, why is the whining so bad this time?"
Name a game that has been completely dominated by one and only character in the past.
 

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Timedog said:
are you one of the best in the world?
No, do I have to be?
 

Yellowcorn

Neo Member
Professor Beef said:
Name a game that has been completely dominated by one and only character in the past.

I can't, just like you can't say AE is dominated by Yun. That's kind of my point? It's the same.

8 in top 32, 2 in top 8? Not broken to me, just top tier. This mirrors other tournaments... and even the SBO qualifiers with their high amount of Yun's match the first year of SF4 and its amount of Sagat qualifiers.

If you built a list of high level folk being knocked out at Evo, I'm sure you'll find plenty who never faced a Yun, too.
 
I never said Yun dominated top 8. What I will say is that he is clearly head and shoulders above most of the cast in this game except for a handful of characters. It's not a matter of "oh he's just top tier" when he beats nearly the entire roster with his eyes closed.

And no, this doesn't mirror other games in the slightest. Even though people weren't as vocal about games in the past, I can't think of a single game (besides Brawl) where a single character is just downright better then everyone and people outraged. Games used to have balance, and Yun spits on it and swirls his hat around.
 

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Timedog said:
How much money do you make?
Not nearly enough, but I have a job and I get happy with what I earn through hobbies.
 

Yellowcorn

Neo Member
Professor Beef said:
I never said Yun dominated top 8. What I will say is that he is clearly head and shoulders above most of the cast in this game except for a handful of characters. It's not a matter of "oh he's just top tier" when he beats nearly the entire roster with his eyes closed.

And no, this doesn't mirror other games in the slightest. Even though people weren't as vocal about games in the past, I can't think of a single game (besides Brawl) where a single character is just downright better then everyone and people outraged. Games used to have balance, and Yun spits on it and swirls his hat around.

Well, we disagree then. I especially don't remember any balanced fighting games...there is an S tier in almost everything.

To me, "head and shoulders above" and "beats most of the cast with his eyes closed" means there would be far more Yun's in the top 8 of every tournament... the most we've seen is 3, which includes Daigo.
 

DjangoReinhardt

Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.
Nice to see Capcom give fans a free balance patch that almost everyone wants. The community has totally held up their end of the bargain by supporting this through three iterations and buying DLC costumes.

I really hope this is a simultaneous arcade + console release so the playing field is as level as possible.
 

alstein

Member
pirateben said:
Ono announces a free AE balance patch coming this winter...

Hopefully it'll just be the twins tweaked down or everyone else buffed up. Please don't randomly start nerfing other characters please!

Edit: Beaten!

Fei could use some nerfing. Most of the chars that got nerfed in AE need buffs back, though not necessarily their stuff from Super returned to them.

A large part of the reason we didn't see more Yuns in top 8 was due to the fact Americans only had a month with Yun, which is why we saw more Feis.
 
Glad to see the balance patch coming. I hope AE lives for a long time coming. Hope they don't hit Makoto too hard if at all. :X Though I welcome buffing a good portion of the cast and the nerfing of Yun and fixing Yang's invincible wakeup bug.
 

alstein

Member
Lost Fragment said:
Most of the games you compared AE to are from a different era. Except for vanilla Sagat. But people didn't complain about him as much as they complain about characters in AE because vanilla Sagat wasn't as bad. Pretty simple.

As far as the characters from the other games go, it's pretty hard to say "Well people didn't complain as much then, so why are people complaining about characters that are arguably less powerful now?" because, well, that was then, and this is now. Lots of things have changed.

I don't think it was that. I think that what happened was pre-SF4, people's expectations on balance were much lower, so a slightly broken Sagat was tolerated. Super was a very well-balanced game though, and raised the standards. The era of patching has also raised people's expectations- we now know that poorly balanced games can be fixed. Look at MK, still has some problems, but the game is much improved over what it was at launch, in just 3 months.

The other issue that comes into play is the FGC's insisting that ANY nerf= horrible. Sometimes chars do need nerfing, you just gotta do it in a way that keeps folks from abandoning the character (See SSF4 Sagat- you can't just remove tools from a character without giving something interesting in return) Also, you can't just buff everyone either- that can turn a game just as dull as nerfing everything.

The real fundamental problem with SF4 though is the controls and the excessive emphasis on option selects without good techniques to beat the option selects. VF5 had just as much emphasis on option selects, but it was much easier to beat an OS if you could predict it. (circular to beat ETEG, low throw/low/delayed mid/delayed throw to beat fuzzy) Won't happen though since that would take more then a balance patch, so not expecting it.
 
the_log_ride said:
Is this real life? Is it known whether the arcade cabs will also be updated?

Need to nerf 'Sim more. More startup and recovery on st.HP and B+HK and MK. Inferno should only do 250 dmg, fires should do 30 dmg, and none should go full screen. Oh, and normal Yoga Blasts should be nerfed, they're way too buff as it is.

Wha? Why would you say such things? Its actually hilarious how much they made Sim free to so many characters now. Sim and AE is already dead to me.
 

MightyKAC

Member
toasty_T said:
That cr. MK is the shit though

It is one of the few nice changes that they gave him. Too bad they had to nerf its damage (why, I don't know) to give it to him.

Over all I'd rather have the old (Super not Vanilla) Vega back.
 
Art exposed:

BLxEQ.jpg
 
MightyKAC said:
It is one of the few nice changes that they gave him. Too bad they had to nerf its damage (why, I don't know) to give it to him.

Over all I'd rather have the old (Super not Vanilla) Vega back.

That's the best we can hope for I think, I don't like how is it at the moment. Damage reduction across the board, ultra 1 is just weird when you go forward missing completely at times, ultra 2 damage is shit without the claw, claw falls off way too easily, his stun is pretty low, his hitbox becomes enormous when using his claw pokes, cr. jab needs to be a chain (just me wishing) etc.

Maybe I'm just bitching but with the way they jerk around this character you'd think he was S tier once upon a time
 
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