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Super Street Fighter 4 |OT3| BACK OF THE BUS, SAGAT!

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L

LakeEarth

Member
kirblar said:
One of the problems Latif ran into was that Food just punished his EX Seismo wakeups over and over- are EX Burn Kick or EX Thunder Knuckle viable at all on wake up for "GTFO" moves?
Click to expand...
Yeah, Fuudo knew exactly when to hit a button to stuff wakeup EX Seismo. Really good play.
 
U

USD

Member
I secretly wish there was a version of SFIV with "ultimate" character forms, with each character having the best version of their tools.

Imagine Sagat with his SFIV Tiger Uppercut damage and Angry Charge *shudder*.

Imagine Zangief with the option (based on the buttons used) to knock you down or keep you standing with EX Banishing Flat.

Imagine Cammy with her SFIV Cannon Spike damage, her SFIV/SSFIV Cannon Strike and Spiral Arrow, and her AE frame advantage.

Imagine Yun as... Yun.

Imagine all characters with both Ultra Combos available during the match.

The balance would be totally fucked, but by Dhalsim it would be totally amazing.
 
K

kirblar

Member
kitzkozan said:
Like I said in the EVO thread, Fei Long's Ultra 2 has never looked so good. There was one occasion where he correctly predicted what Latif wanted to do when he jumped, but initiated U2 just a fraction of a second too fast. Just gave his opponent a small window for not pushing a button.

It's no wonder that he pounded Wolfkrone and made him look like a scrub. He was being read like a book and that sick pressure got to him real fast...
Click to expand...
I actually think you can give credit to Latif there for not pushing a button at all and successfully baiting the WU Ultra.
 
B

BotoxAgent

Member
USD said:
I secretly wish there was a version of SFIV with "ultimate" character forms, with each character having the best version of their tools.

Imagine Sagat with his SFIV Tiger Uppercut damage and Angry Charge *shudder*.

Imagine Zangief with the option (based on the buttons used) to knock you down or keep you standing with EX Banishing Flat.

Imagine Cammy with her SFIV Cannon Spike damage, her SFIV/SSFIV Cannon Strike and Spiral Arrow, and her AE frame advantage.

Imagine Yun as... Yun.

Imagine all characters with both Ultra Combos available during the match.

The balance would be totally fucked, but by Dhalsim it would be totally amazing.
Click to expand...

I dig that.

And maybe people will stop whining about tiers or their character choices (probably not)
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
USD said:
I secretly wish there was a version of SFIV with "ultimate" character forms, with each character having the best version of their tools.

Imagine Sagat with his SFIV Tiger Uppercut damage and Angry Charge *shudder*.

Imagine Zangief with the option (based on the buttons used) to knock you down or keep you standing with EX Banishing Flat.

Imagine Cammy with her SFIV Cannon Spike damage, her SFIV/SSFIV Cannon Strike and Spiral Arrow, and her AE frame advantage.

Imagine Yun as... Yun.

Imagine all characters with both Ultra Combos available during the match.

The balance would be totally fucked, but by Dhalsim it would be totally amazing.
Click to expand...
This will happen in 10 years and be released a Hyper SFIV X
 
K

Kimosabae

Banned
kirblar said:
One of the problems Latif ran into was that Food just punished his EX Seismo wakeups over and over- are EX Burn Kick or EX Thunder Knuckle viable at all on wake up for "GTFO" moves?
Click to expand...


I think Latif was just mind-fucked. In a lot block-string pressure situations where Ex Seismo was too slow, Fierce TK would have worked to get him out of trouble - not to mention save him meter. It seemed like Fuudo was blocking a lot of those Ex Seismos on reaction.

Ex TK isn't a viable Reversal at all, and EX Burn Kick is easily and heavily punished. Much easier than Ex Seismo which takes Focus.

Because Viper has low-life and no truly dependable Reversal, it's really easy for Viper players to psychologically crack on defense - they'd often rather spend meter than think clearly and take the mixups. That's what makes Wolfkrone so good. He's not scared to take mixups.
 
S

Spiderjericho

Member
USD, personally, I wish they'd come out with an Hyper Street Fighter IV which allows you to select from the four incarnations of each character (or three or two in some cases).

Get hype with SFIV Rufus, Ryu, Dhalsim and Sagat. Get hype with Super Honda. Get wasted with AE Yun, Yang and Fei Long. Get Salty with Balanced Edition Vega.
 
H

HiResDes

Member
It just seems logical, if I'm clever enough to mix up somebody in the corner, I feel as though I should be rewarded. I pick people off with Devil's Reverse all the time.
 
U

USD

Member
What I really want is Ultimate Fei Long: Seth Killian Edition. Super HK Rekku/CW invincibility and AE sweep combo and EX Rekka. Plus EX Tenshin-into-UC1, cancellable cr.MK, extended Tenshin range, and less UC2 recovery.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
USD said:
What I really want is Ultimate Fei Long: Seth Killian Edition. Super HK Rekku/CW invincibility and AE sweep combo and EX Rekka. Plus cancellable cr.MK, extended Tenshin range, and less UC2 recovery.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't be S-Kill edition without Tenshin -> UC1
 
K

kitzkozan

Member
USD said:
I secretly wish there was a version of SFIV with "ultimate" character forms, with each character having the best version of their tools.

Imagine Sagat with his SFIV Tiger Uppercut damage and Angry Charge *shudder*.

Imagine Zangief with the option (based on the buttons used) to knock you down or keep you standing with EX Banishing Flat.

Imagine Cammy with her SFIV Cannon Spike damage, her SFIV/SSFIV Cannon Strike and Spiral Arrow, and her AE frame advantage.

Imagine Yun as... Yun.

Imagine all characters with both Ultra Combos available during the match.

The balance would be totally fucked, but by Dhalsim it would be totally amazing.
Click to expand...

It could work, but only if characters would be given more tools. I think AE is easily the most exciting version of SF IV and also close to being the best. The top 32 was really sick and you could really see the raw skill shining this year.

The problem is not really Yun, Yang or Fei Long and AE is nowhere close to being garbage or a complete misfire. Ono wasn't crazy in thinking that SSFIV was balanced but missing something, he was partially right imo.

Yun and Yang are great addition, but they expose most of the SFIV cast for what they are: mediocre characters in what started out as a mediocre character game. The SFIV version of Ryu is ass and when you look at him, he's been reverted to his SF II days. It worked before and in vanilla/super, but if you played SFIII or CvS or even alpha how could you not be somewhat bored by his IV incarnation? What's worse is that you put this basic incarnation of Ryu against 3rd strike characters with so much more tools. How could it be surprising to see most characters unable to keep up given their limitations?

Rose is possibly the worst offender along with Gen. Play Rose in Alpha 2 or 3 and look at her in IV my god, what a boring and crappy character compared to what she was in the past.

If everyone had more options, we could have the strongest version of each character but alas...
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
If every character had more options, you wouldn't be playing a footsie game. The whole point of Street Fighter is that it's supposed to be measured and deliberate. Yun and Yang are trash characters because they're completely mindless. Look at how complicated Tokido's Akuma has to be to get consistent pressure the way he does. Now look at any Yun. It's just stupid. Even Seth has to put his life behind every mixup, but Yun just gets everything he wants for free.

Street Fighter should be about characters with defined playstyles interacting with each other. 3s was a great, great game, but it was a bad street fighter game. There's a reason 2 and 4 are the most popular, even if you don't like them. I know I don't like 4.
 
R

Rice-Eater

Member
With AE 2K12 on the way this is what I'm hoping to see changed with Evil Ryu.

-Make LK axe kick -3 on block. Right now it's -7 and that's ridiculous to me. It can still be interrupted by moves with invincibility, why make it this bad. At least make it safer on block I say.
-Make HK axe kick a true overhead. Right now it's useless, anybody who plays Evil Ryu never uses the HK version. Give it something so that we would want to take the risk of using a move that take 2 minutes to finish.
-change cr. MK to a 5 frame start up so you can link it off cr. jab or cr. strong.
-change cr. HK to 6 frames so Evil Ryu can tatsu sweep everybody Akuma can. Admittedly, he can't do anything with this besides cross up tatsu, but at least it's available so you can do safe jumps or empty jumps at the very least.
-change st. Jab to +6 so he can do st. Jab into sweep. Give him some ways to combo into a untechable knockdown.
-bump health and stun to 900 each.

I think this way Evil Ryu would be a good character, but still far from top tier. But at least we would see people use him and maybe even place high or win tournaments with him. But with his health/stun still low, no air tatsu, shitty teleport, etc. I don't see people complaining about him like they would a Viper, Yun, or Fei being too good.
 
K

kitzkozan

Member
God's Beard said:
If every character had more options, you wouldn't be playing a footsie game. The whole point of Street Fighter is that it's supposed to be measured and deliberate. Yun and Yang are trash characters because they're completely mindless. Look at how complicated Tokido's Akuma has to be to get consistent pressure the way he does. Now look at any Yun. It's just stupid. Even Seth has to put his life behind every mixup, but Yun just gets everything he wants for free.

Street Fighter should be about characters with defined playstyles interacting with each other. 3s was a great, great game, but it was a bad street fighter game. There's a reason 2 and 4 are the most popular, even if you don't like them. I know I don't like 4.
Click to expand...

It's getting late for that with all these SFIII characters in it now. :p What a contradiction for Ono to state that SFIV is bringing back the franchise to it's SFII roots and putting in offensive monsters designed to work in a completely different game...
 
H

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
HiResDes said:
Bison should be able to combo off of landing Devil's Reverse into Ultra 1...That's all I need
Click to expand...
Devil's Reverse is a controllable move, but for Ultra 1 you need to have a back charge.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
kitzkozan said:
It's getting late for that with all these SFIII characters in it now. :p What a contradiction for Ono to state that SFIV is bringing back the franchise to it's SFII roots and putting in offensive monsters designed to work in a completely different game...
Click to expand...
Shame on you for taking PR talk seriously. They're is just doing whatever they think will result in a more commercially successful product.
 
K

kitzkozan

Member
_dementia said:
Shame on you for taking PR talk seriously. They're is just doing whatever they think will result in a more commercially successful product.
Click to expand...

Is it all PR talk? The initial roster for the arcade edition of SFIV consisted of the original 12+4 brand new characters and Akuma as an hidden character. It really started out almost as a remake of SFII except in 2.5d and a new game mechanic or two. For the console version, it started to become more fan service than anything by adding alpha and SFIII characters.

I'm sure it was the initial intent of Ono to make SF IV as close as possible to II, but the arcade success just wasn't what they expected in Asia so they went fan service mode after that.
 
K

Kimosabae

Banned
God's Beard said:
If every character had more options, you wouldn't be playing a footsie game. The whole point of Street Fighter is that it's supposed to be measured and deliberate. Yun and Yang are trash characters because they're completely mindless. Look at how complicated Tokido's Akuma has to be to get consistent pressure the way he does. Now look at any Yun. It's just stupid. Even Seth has to put his life behind every mixup, but Yun just gets everything he wants for free.

Street Fighter should be about characters with defined playstyles interacting with each other. 3s was a great, great game, but it was a bad street fighter game. There's a reason 2 and 4 are the most popular, even if you don't like them. I know I don't like 4.
Click to expand...

Dismissing powerful muscle memory tactics derived from dedication as "mindlessness" is such a trash conception. From my perspective it's "mindless", not to mention lazy. Not to say Yun, specifically, requires much dedication, because he doesn't, but I see this general objection trotted out far too often when criticizing execution-based gameplay in regards to this series (largely in regards to Viper).

It's like dismissing an athlete as "mindless" for training his/her body through focus and dedication when not actually competing. You don't dismiss an Olympic Runner as "mindless" for spending weeks, months and years focusing on training his/her body and mind to handle the stress of competition in a 100 meter sprint without objection. You wouldn't call Usain Bolt "mindless" after detailing his preparation for coming off the block and improving his reaction time, improving his Point of Max (where the average runner meets their maximum speed), and speed maintenance. Detailing the preparation alone, would exhaust the average human.

Everytime I see someone whine about an execution-heavy game/character being "herp derp" I just point and laugh at the irony ushered in by their blind irritation.

And that's why the current generation of fighters is such a joke in regards to their competitive value (MvC3 and SSF4 specifically). They don't reward or measure dedication the way they used to, IMO. Or at least, dedication in terms of execution. That's an obvious criticism at this point, sure, but that's a serious problem when evaluating the actual merits of competing in a video game. At least, IMO. You can trot out the cliche' chess comparison if you'd like, but that game has established itself in our culture as something else entirely. Video games are not Chess.

I'm not saying these games shouldn't be accessible, or that the game's engine should easily allow the theoretical "Perfect Match" to go unabated with no guesswork involved. No one wants zero-death combo dominated gameplay because that's geared too heavily towards the execution extreme, making it uninteresting as a game. Guesswork is part of makes a fighting game thus. But the ceilings are way too low, which is part of why I surmise the competition is so tight at the highest levels right now. The cap on a player's talent is more arbitrary than ever, allowing the competition to reach the higher levels quicker.

Meh.
 
S

SamVimes

Member
Every monkey can learn execution given enough time, what makes Street Fighter good is footsies and mindgames and characters like Viper just skip them.
 
J

jlai

Member
SamVimes said:
Every monkey can learn execution given enough time, what makes Street Fighter good is footsies and mindgames and characters like Viper just skip them.
Click to expand...

citizen_cane.gif
 
K

Kimosabae

Banned
SamVimes said:
Every monkey can learn execution given enough time, what makes Street Fighter good is footsies and mindgames and characters like Viper just skip them.
Click to expand...


Again, the oversimplification and lack of thought in this response is outstanding. You must have filtered this through the FGC RPU (Response Processor Unit).



That's the point. Not everyone is willing to invest the time, which is intrinsic to dedication. Time investment comes at Opportunity Cost and is a finite resource. Thus, everyone cannot, and will not, dedicate/invest the same amount.

*edit*

Also, the implication that every human is uniform in their physiological makeup is hilariously thoughtless.
 
S

Satyamdas

Banned
Kimosabae said:
Dismissing powerful muscle memory tactics derived from dedication as "mindlessness" is such a trash conception. From my perspective it's "mindless", not to mention lazy. Not to say Yun, specifically, requires much dedication, because he doesn't, but I see this general objection trotted out far too often when criticizing execution-based gameplay in regards to this series (largely in regards to Viper).

It's like dismissing an athlete as "mindless" for training his/her body through focus and dedication when not actually competing. You don't dismiss an Olympic Runner as "mindless" for spending weeks, months and years focusing on training his/her body and mind to handle the stress of competition in a 100 meter sprint without objection. You wouldn't call Usain Bolt "mindless" after detailing his preparation for coming off the block and improving his reaction time, improving his Point of Max (where the average runner meets their maximum speed), and speed maintenance. Detailing the preparation alone, would exhaust the average human.

Everytime I see someone whine about an execution-heavy game/character being "herp derp" I just point and laugh at the irony ushered in by their blind irritation.

And that's why the current generation of fighters is such a joke in regards to their competitive value (MvC3 and SSF4 specifically). They don't reward or measure dedication the way they used to, IMO. Or at least, dedication in terms of execution. That's an obvious criticism at this point, sure, but that's a serious problem when evaluating the actual merits of competing in a video game. At least, IMO. You can trot out the cliche' chess comparison if you'd like, but that game has established itself in our culture as something else entirely. Video games are not Chess.

I'm not saying these games shouldn't be accessible, or that the game's engine should easily allow the theoretical "Perfect Match" to go unabated with no guesswork involved. No one wants zero-death combo dominated gameplay because that's geared too heavily towards the execution extreme, making it uninteresting as a game. Guesswork is part of makes a fighting game thus. But the ceilings are way too low, which is part of why I surmise the competition is so tight at the highest levels right now. The cap on a player's talent is more arbitrary than ever, allowing the competition to reach the higher levels quicker.

Meh.
Click to expand...
2le0vn9.jpg
 
K

Kimosabae

Banned
God's Beard said:
What the fuck? When did I say a damn thing about execution? Tokido's Akuma takes way more execution than Daigo's Yun.
Click to expand...


Sorry, I was mostly using your usage of the word "mindless" as a springboard to launch an argument against those that tend to dismiss offensive/execution heavy gameplay in fighters. I see the distinction with you is that you feel the barrier for Yun is too low for the rewards he gets, which I generally agree with (and I mentioned as much).


Satyamdas said:
2le0vn9.jpg
Click to expand...


Get out.
 
S

Satyamdas

Banned
Kimosabae said:
Again, the oversimplification and lack of thought in this response is outstanding. You must have filtered this through the FGC response RPU (Response Processor Unit).



That's the point. Not everyone is willing to invest the time, which is intrinsic to dedication. Time investment comes at Opportunity Cost and is a finite resource. Thus, everyone cannot, and will not, dedicate/invest the same amount.

*edit*

Also, the implication that every human is uniform in their physiological makeup is hilariously thoughtless.
Click to expand...
So what? Do you think you can play Dhalsim at F. Champ's level without an equal investment of time? Time is not only devoted to sharpening execution, it is needed to learn how to avoid setups, how to play defense, how to create setups of your own, etc.

Execution is the least important aspect of the game because anyone who puts in the time to learn Street Fighter can sharpen their execution up to where pulling off anything in the game is trivial. The real meat is in the mindgame aspects, the ability to read opponents, and proper spacing/zoning. People don't like characters like Yun and Viper because they don't have to worry about that shit at all. Just spam your favorite safe move which leads to stupid damage, and here, have a braindead Ultra setup while you're at it.

Your incessant moaning about execution is meaningless because no one begrudges there being a high execution character in the game. Viper's shit is trivial anyway once a person invests the time into getting it down, so why should she still be rewarded with retarded damage, braindead mixups, and 5000 easy mode Ultra links? If anything, being a "high execution" character should mean that it is a lot harder for her to land her Ultra. At least then the high damage of it would make sense.
 
S

Satyamdas

Banned
Kimosabae said:
Sorry, I was mostly using your usage of the word "mindless" as a springboard to launch an argument against those that tend to dismiss offensive/execution heavy gameplay in fighters. I see the distinction with you is that you feel the barrier for Yun is too low for the rewards he gets, which I generally agree with (and I mentioned as much).
Click to expand...

Kimosabae said:
If I had my way, I'd hardly even touch Yun, if at all. I've been saying forever he's not "broken" by any means, he's just far and away the most versatile character in the game, donning the largest number of viable tools. He should be a template for boosting the other characters, instead of hacking away at everybody's hitboxes and framedata and putting them all in very particular gameplay box (read: Super. Yeah, it was more "balanced" but it was still largely boring compared to Vanilla). Characters like Yun and Fei only become frustrating to play against when you realize how restricted your character is in relation to them in terms of gameplay.
Click to expand...
wmnsly.jpg


Really surprised to see a Viper player coming to the defense of Yun's stupidity. /roll eyes
 
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