Support NeoGAF

[jlai]

Makoto isn't guilty of that as well?

Her offense is pretty herp derp and I've never denied that. I used her all throughout Super as well and I'm not going to stop playing her because she got buffed. My character choice doesn't mean I can't ridicule someone for defending another char's herp derp. That's where the distinction lies.

To be honest though, I don't take the game seriously anyways. If you ever catch me in endless I'm messing around using a bunch of chars.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Wanna fix Viper? All burn kicks -4 on block. Done.

 

[Kimosabae]

Sorry for the quote response, but I'm short on time.

So what? Do you think you can play Dhalsim at F. Champ's level without an equal investment of time?

Subjectivity is meaningless. FFF can be theoretically learned by anyone, but the time investment required in learning to execute the combo at a high%, under pressure, easily surpasses Sim's BnBs for the average person. I don't see how you can argue against this. That's only one aspect of her execution barrier.

Time is not only devoted to sharpening execution, it is needed to learn how to avoid setups, how to play defense, how to create setups of your own, etc.

No disagreement there.

Execution is the least important aspect of the game because anyone who puts in the time to learn Street Fighter can sharpen their execution up to where pulling off anything in the game is trivial.

Demonstrably false. Cite any match between any two top players in the world you want and you'll sabatoge your own statement. The best players in the world have executional hiccups all the time (in regards to combos). You're threateningly close to likening human beings to machinery, so stop while you're ahead.

The real meat is in the mindgame aspects, the ability to read opponents, and proper spacing/zoning.

Normative statements that I don't disagree with. Of course, different character's execution requirements host varying barriers to the meat you speak of. The barrier variations host differential time costs (which also varies by person). To deny this is ridiculous.

People don't like characters like Yun and Viper because they don't have to worry about that shit at all. Just spam your favorite safe move which leads to stupid damage, and here, have a braindead Ultra setup while you're at it.

What a hatchetman you are. You should try playing the character sometime. This is bunk and you know it. Yeah, Viper's powerful, but her myriad Ultra setups require relative precision and are dropped often enough as evidence of this. Uppercut -> FADC Ultra it is not. If they're "Braindead" it's because a player has invested the time necessary to execute all the setups thoughtlessly. Considering this isn't as easy as you like to make it sound, as demonstrated, I consider that of merit. Latif and Flash might be the closest.

Regardless, you just sound salty. Yun and Viper don't destroy any of the paradigms you speak of.

Your incessant moaning about execution is meaningless because no one begrudges there being a high execution character in the game. Viper's shit is trivial anyway once a person invests the time into getting it down, so why should she still be rewarded with retarded damage, braindead mixups, and 5000 easy mode Ultra links?

Umm, because they invested the time.

If anything, being a "high execution" character should mean that it is a lot harder for her to land her Ultra. At least then the high damage of it would make sense.

Tell us, how hard is "hard enough"? Give us our objective measure, or at least, which ever measure would make you happy. How about all Viper players can only execute Ultra 1 through Kinetic peripherals, with the Dougie as the activation motion?

Really surprised to see a Viper player coming to the defense of Yun's stupidity. /roll eyes

You conveniently ignored the last sentence in the second quote where I stated he only seems broken in relation how limited the other characters feel. Gives context to the first quote.

 

[sixteen-bit]

since i'm restarting with AE on PC i want to try a new main but the only one i really enjoy is Yun.


im sawhy

Why are you sorry? Play who you like.

 

[MIMIC]

Every monkey can learn execution given enough time, what makes Street Fighter good is footsies and mindgames and characters like Viper just skip them.

Every monkey can, but doesn't (because "footsies" and whatnot are easier than getting the execution down). So.....this statement is worthless.

 

[cHaotix8]

Viper is dumb, can't wait until they nerf her. Lol wuts footsies

Every monkey can, but doesn't (because "footsies" and whatnot are easier than getting the execution down). So.....this statement is worthless.

Sorry but this is just wrong. Footsies takes more than just 10 hours in training mode to get good at, and it's always an infinite climb. Execution is important for all characters but footsies is what wins matches.

 

[Satyamdas]

Subjectivity is meaningless. FFF can be theoretically learned by anyone, but the time investment required in learning to execute the combo at a high%, under pressure, easily surpasses Sim's BnBs for the average person.

You make the mistake in thinking I was comparing Sim's combos to Viper's combos. It takes much less time to learn Sim's than Viper's, but to learn all of Sim's normals for any given situation, to learn how to escape pressure without a reversal, to learn how to trap and zone your opponent, takes a hell of a lot longer than it takes to get FFF down pat.

So execution is not the be-all-end-all thing that you promote it as.

Demonstrably false. Cite any match between any two top players in the world you want and you'll sabatoge your own statement. The best players in the world have executional hiccups all the time. You're threateningly close to likening human beings to machinery, so stop while you're ahead.

Did I ever say anyone hits every combo perfectly 100% of the time? No. I said they can practice to the point where doing every move is TRIVIAL. If a player can rely on hitting his combos 97 times out of 100, then that execution can be considered trivial and irrelevant.

What a hatchetman you are. You should try playing the character sometime. This is bunk and you know it. Yeah, Viper's powerful, but her myriad Ultra setups require relative precision and are dropped often enough as evidence of this. Uppercut -> FADC Ultra it is not. If they're "Braindead" it's because a player has invested the time necessary to execute all the setups thoughtlessly. Considering this isn't as easy as you like to make it sound, as demonstrated, I consider that of merit. Latif and Flash might be the closest.

I have played the character. I don't like the character. I don't need to main Viper to have an opinion about her movesets and damage and playstyle.

And at the bolded, I fucking LOL'd hard.

EX Seismo > Ultra and Burn Kick > Ultra require "relative" precision? Relative to what? A monkey mashing the stick? You've got to be taking the piss. At least SJC > Ultra requires some execution but even that is piss easy with practice.

Regardless, you just sound salty. Yun and Viper don't destroy any of the paradigms you speak of.

You can repeat your mantra all day, son. Doesn't make it truth. I beat you and a plethora of other Vipers enough to where I have no reason to be salty about the character.

Expressing a negative opinion about a thing is not necessarily "hating" on it, nor does it mean one must be "salty". For being as verbose and pretentious as you are I'd figure you would know that, but I guess you gotta get your petty little insults in.

Tell us, how hard is "hard enough"? Give us our objective measure, or at least, which ever measure would make you happy. How about all Vipers players can only execute Ultra 1 through Kinetic peripheral, with the Dougie as activation motion?

So you are waking up as Viper, and rather than block a meaty or backdash, you mash out EX Seismo. Player was going for a meaty, gets hit and juggled, and you get a free 400 damage Ultra. Or instead, you go for HP Thunder Knuckle as a reversal to a jump in, it trades, and you get a free 400 damage Ultra. Or your opponent is waking up in the corner, you do a Burn Kick, they guess the wrong direction, you get a free 400 damage Ultra.

You are going to tell me that any of this is "hard"? What, pray tell, would be "easy" to you?

You conveniently ignored the last sentence in the second quote where I stated he only seems broken in relation how limited the other characters feel.

Then maybe the mistake is that they made Yun too powerful in relation to the rest of the cast? Nooooo, couldn't be that.

 

[kitzkozan]

Every monkey can learn execution given enough time, what makes Street Fighter good is footsies and mindgames and characters like Viper just skip them.

I agree that footsies and mindgames is a great part of SF.

However, there's no way everyone can learn the elite level of execution. Everybody can get proficient to a certain point, but being able to execution complex and hard combo 95% of the time? If that were true, why is it that only Sako is able to pull off monstrous links/combos with Rose, Ibuki or even Cammy that nobody else does? Perhaps it is because they tried and fuck them up over 50% of the time unlike him?

We see plenty of dropped combos in MvC3 all the time and it's a much easier game from an execution stand point than 2...

Arturo said in an interview that the great thing about Arcana heart is that you don't really need execution, implying elite level of execution which is needed to play some game like Guilty Gear. Even Viscant once said that he was sloppy in MvC2 and didn't have the necessary level of execution to compete with the top players in that game.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Viper is dumb, can't wait until they nerf her. Lol wuts footsies



Sorry but this is just wrong. Footsies takes more than just 10 hours in training mode to get good at, and it's always an infinite climb. Execution is important for all characters but footsies is what wins matches.

wuts blocking? I got ex seismo when I'm under pressure son.

 

[BotoxAgent]

I can probably try to main Yun and Saty's Sim will still kick my ass, lol

 

[Satyamdas]

However, there's no way everyone can learn the elite level of execution. Everybody can get proficient to a certain point, but being able to execution complex and hard combo 95% of the time? If that were true, why is it that only Sako is able to pull off monstrous links/combos with Rose, Ibuki or even Cammy that nobody else does? Perhaps it is because they tried and fuck them up over 50% of the time unlike him?

Sako does not do any combo in SF4 that no one else can do, he only did that in Vampire Savior. Hell I've played hundreds of players who can do them, and that's just online. He might have invented the Sako Combo Cammy Technology™, but actually pulling it off is not hard at all, even for mid level players. Ibuki is the same way, he is not doing combos that the average player can't do, what he is doing that no one else can do is read his opponent and force them into situations where they crack under his mixup pressure. He also plays flawless defense.

You guys are greatly underestimating the average player's ability to learn good execution. Some might take longer than others, but what Viper players do is by no means superhuman or even special.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Sorry but this is just wrong. Footsies takes more than just 10 hours in training mode to get good at, and it's always an infinite climb. Execution is important for all characters but footsies is what wins matches.

this is street fighter iv. knockdown is what wins matches.

 

[Satyamdas]

this is street fighter iv. knockdown is what wins matches.

And footsies leads to knockdowns.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

And footsies leads to knockdowns.

You're the one hating on Viper?

 

[Satyamdas]

Every monkey can, but doesn't (because "footsies" and whatnot are easier than getting the execution down). So.....this statement is worthless.

I think this might be the most ignorant statement made in the history of Street Fighter. Well done. ^_^

You're the one hating on Viper?

Non Sequitur much?

 

[the_log_ride]

You're the one hating on Viper?

 

[Imm0rt4l]

You're the one hating on Viper?

Vipers game isn't predicated on footsies.

 

[kitzkozan]

Sako does not do any combo in SF4 that no one else can do, he only did that in Vampire Savior. Hell I've played hundreds of players who can do them, and that's just online. He might have invented the Sako Combo Cammy Technology™, but actually pulling it off is not hard at all, even for mid level players. Ibuki is the same way, he is not doing combos that the average player can't do, what he is doing that no one else can do is read his opponent and force them into situations where they crack under his mixup pressure. He also plays flawless defense.

You guys are greatly underestimating the average player's ability to learn good execution. Some might take longer than others, but what Viper players do is by no means superhuman or even special.

Good execution yes, but not great. There is definitively a difference between good and great execution if you can do some difficult combo 95% of the time versus 65-70%.

Also, by looking at James Chen I would disagree with your statement that pulling off the Cammy combo tech is not hard for average players.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Some would say Sim is not actually playing footsies, but is zoning

Let the argument continue!

 

[Satyamdas]

Good execution yes, but not great. There is definitively a difference between good and great execution if you can do some difficult combo 95% of the time versus 65-70%.

So what? I've not seen anyone say that tough combos shouldn't do good damage.

Also, by looking at James Chen I would disagree with your statement that pulling off the Cammy combo tech is not hard for average players.

Yeah well James Chen is a self admitted scrub, so I don't know what pointing to his (84 yr. old) execution proves.

And I can point to a bunch of completely scrubby Cammy players (they know who they are), who can pull off her 1 frame links with ease.

Some would say Sim is not actually playing footsies, but is zoning

Let the argument continue!

Protip: You can do both at the same time!

 

[MIMIC]

I think this might be the most ignorant statement made in the history of Street Fighter. Well done. ^_^

I'll say that they're apples and oranges (footsies vs. high-precision execution). But you downplaying the latter in favor of the former is dumb. Who says footsies has to be the only strategy in Street Fighter?

Is Viper easy to play at a high level? No. But is she rewarded for doing the hard work with the proper execution? Yes. Makes sense to me.

When it comes to talking crap about Viper (i.e. thinking she's an "unfair" character), all I hear is salty bias.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Protip: You can do both at the same time!

Sim is predicated on zoning, not footsies

Would you relent that some Viper players are playing footsies (though its not predicated on that) in their gameplay?

I hate Sim and Viper, peace from Mother Russia.


And please, somebody define footsies again.

This came up in another fighting game thread a while back. People were going back and forth, like 3rd strike has more footsies than SF4 series and stuff,and other BS.

 

[Neki]

Sim is predicated on zoning, not footsies

Would you relent that some Viper players are playing footsies (though its not predicated on that) in their gameplay?

I hate Sim and Viper, peace from Mother Russia.


And please, somebody define footsies again.

This came up in another fighting game a while back. People were going back and forth, like 3rd strike has more footsies than SF4 series and stuff,and other BS.

footsies: attacks involving the foot

by this logic, adon/juri has the most footsies, amirite?

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

footsies: attacks involving the foot

by this logic, adon/juri has the most footsies, amirite?

Then all Sims punches are not footsies. F yogo sniper.

I play Elena. I have more footsies than all of you!

 

[Yellowcorn]

I didn't know people thought execution was so cheap...

 

[stabicron7]

Umm, because they invested the time.

Oh really? So just investing the time in a character should guarantee massive damage combos, easy mixups and multiple easy combos to ultra? I really don't think you understand how blessed your character is compared to others.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Vipers game isn't predicated on footsies.

That's the point.

Non Sequitur much?

Saty, you play the character who's mortal enemy is every character who yields 30% or more rewards on okizeme and you're going to tell me that people sink or swim based on footsies? With Cammy's easy answer TKCS and now you have Yun and Viper? Just because you got hit by Abel's step kick or Ibuki's cr. strong doesn't mean you have worst footsies than your opponent.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I was just looking at my friends list and this fei long player all of a sudden is playing VF5 lol.

footsies: attacks involving the foot

by this logic, adon/juri has the most footsies, amirite?

lol

 

[Satyamdas]

I'll say that they're apples and oranges (footsies vs. high-precision execution). But you downplaying the latter in favor of the former is dumb. Who says footsies has to be the only strategy in Street Fighter?

It's not a X vs. X thing. Footsies and execution are both incredibly important. If you have a player who can do every combo in the game 100% of the time but who doesn't understand spacing or how to play defense, then they are going to get blown up. Just like the guy who understands footsies and spacing but has shitty execution will also get blown up.

Is Viper easy to play at a high level? No. But is she rewarded for doing the hard work with the proper execution? Yes. Makes sense to me.

NO CHARACTER is easy to play at a high level. NOT ONE. But the rewards characters like Viper and Yun get far outweigh the execution needed to play them.

When it comes to talking crap about Viper (i.e. thinking she's an "unfair" character), all I hear is salty bias.

Then that is your own bias at work. No one has said she is unfair, people just have an opinion about how she plays and the ridiculous damage she does.

Sim is predicated on zoning, not footsies

Would you relent that some Viper players are playing footsies (though its not predicated on that) in their gameplay?

I hate Sim and Viper, peace from Mother Russia.


And please, somebody define footsies again.

This came up in another fighting game thread a while back. People were going back and forth, like 3rd strike has more footsies than SF4 series and stuff,and other BS.

Sim is predicated on zoning, but he also plays footsies as a part of that. Granted, he doesn't play the typical shoto footsies, but when Sim is standing just outside of fireball range, and pokes to stuff their startup, or does a preemptive st.HK to stop jumps, or slides under fireballs to get closer, or throws an EX fire and punishes their return fireball with a st.HP, this is all footsies. It just looks different.

And yes, a Viper player can play footsies, but her opponent cannot play a typical footsies game with her because her tools completely destroy anyone for attempting to do so. When the punishment for an errant fireball or cr.mk is an EX Seismo > Burn Kick > Ultra, it is clear that playing a traditional footsies game with Viper is just not a smart thing to do.

 

[kitzkozan]

Sim is predicated on zoning, not footsies

Would you relent that some Viper players are playing footsies (though its not predicated on that) in their gameplay?

I hate Sim and Viper, peace from Mother Russia.


And please, somebody define footsies again.

This came up in another fighting game thread a while back. People were going back and forth, like 3rd strike has more footsies than SF4 series and stuff,and other BS.

I think Satyamdas is a Dhalsim player? I do know he got put on blast hard on SRK since I saw one of his post from here and folks were roasting him for the content. Then someone said that he's a Dhalsim player so...

Footsies is the ground game, but it's not so simple to explain lol. It's the poking, baiting and stuff like that.

 

[dragonballjoseph]

Bison should be able to combo off of landing Devil's Reverse into Ultra 1...That's all I need

Bison can combo ultra from the headstomp follow-up. But you have to be in the corner.

 

[stabicron7]

Bison can combo ultra from the headstomp follow-up. But you have to be in the corner.

Isn't that only off counterhit? Even so though that's kinda useless lol.

Edit: nvm I thought it had less frame advantage than it does, it is still rather useless considering that its easy as hell to block skulldiver even after stomp hitting.

 

[Satyamdas]

Saty, you play the character who's mortal enemy is every character who yields 30% or more rewards on okizeme and you're going to tell me that people sink or swim based on footsies? With Cammy's easy answer TKCS and now you have Yun and Viper? Just because you got hit by Abel's step kick or Ibuki's cr. strong doesn't mean you have worst footsies than your opponent.

I agree with this. What I said before was tongue in cheek because I was actually referring to the prior SF games where footsies won matches.

SF4 has basically made a strong footsies game all but irrelevant unless there is a specific match being played. In ST and 3S footsies reigned supreme, but in SF4 there are too many characters with too many moves which completely avoid the old ground based poke/counterpoke game altogether. And I'm fine with that. I just don't think that avoiding the fundamental aspect of what makes Street Fighter what it is should be rewarded with so much damage.

I think Satyamdas is a Dhalsim player? I do know he got put on blast hard on SRK since I saw one of his post from here and folks were roasting him for the content. Then someone said that he's a Dhalsim player so...

LOL, what? Link, please.

 

[Rice-Eater]

Just wanted to say I loved seeing Fuudo beasting on both Wolfkrone and Latif. I hate Viper and I'm glad Fuudo's Fei told her to sit the fuck down and quit trying to escape or reversal every fucking situation or else they will pay for it. I hate Fei to but for completely different reasons. He's just really solid but isn't predicated on gimmics, safe reversals, and I refuse to block on wake up or during anything really(ok, well not quite but it's not as bad as Viper).

 

[Relix]

Saltyamdas making a name for himself!

 

[Aedile]

Why is all the anger bubbling up to the surface now? Is now just a good time because of what we saw on the big screen, or did people really not see from the start that AE had dialed up the randomness and turned Super into a much shallower game? The pros certainly seemed to know: people could dismiss Art's salt because his two mains were destroyed, but Tokido said the general consensus among Japanese players was that the game was ass, too.

My only problem with it, like I said before, is that I think Capcom did it on purpose and I don't know why, especially since they're now (presumably) going to undo what they've done.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

I always thougth footies was putting yourself in a position where you limit the options of the other player. Thats why I love anti-airing with Bison then Sim with normals.

Fuudo put a clinic on footies and anti-airs at EVO. Seeing Fei played in that perfect range to Rekka or Anti-air was amazing. Latif didn't have many options.

 

[Professor Beef]

I think we should all main Viper just to anger Saty.

 

[kitzkozan]

Why is all the anger bubbling up to the surface now? Is now just a good time because of what we saw on the big screen, or did people really not see from the start that AE had dialed up the randomness and turned Super into a much shallower game? The pros certainly seemed to know: people could dismiss Art's salt because his two mains were destroyed, but Tokido said the general consensus among Japanese players was that the game was ass, too.

My only problem with it, like I said before, is that I think Capcom did it on purpose and I don't know why, especially since they're now (presumably) going to undo what they've done.

Because lot's of people complained about SSFIV being a boring as fuck game where defense rule supreme. Thus why they nerfed the defensive/zoning characters and crippled both Ryu and Akuma escape air tatsu (and replaced Seth back jumping fierce punch) .

 

[Satyamdas]

I always thougth footies was putting yourself in a position where you limit the options of the other player. Thats why I love anti-airing with Bison then Sim with normals.

That is zoning. Zoning and spacing is the control of the playfield.

Footsies is the ground based poking/counterpoking game that is played up close that developed in SF2 because jumping in that game meant you would get anti aired every time for free and for FAT damage. So players would instead walk up and poke and counterpoke the opponents whiffed moves. The ability to punish whiffed moves and to smartly place your own moves to connect is footsies. And it was called that because the most frequently used move was crouching medium kick. That move had better range than light kick, started up and recovered faster than sweep which made it safer to use, and for shotos was special cancelable (sweep > fireball was also good). So you would have two characters poking the tips of each others feet with their cr.mk and playing footsies with each other.

In SF4, with super jumps, dive kicks, and special moves which move characters across the screen on ground or in the air, the traditional poking game isn't as prevalent as it was in SF2. It still happens in certain match ups, but a lot of characters (Fuerte, Viper, Gief to name a few) make it so that playing such a poke/counterpoke game is impossible or heavily in their favor to the point where you are better off not even bothering with footsies.

I think we should all main Viper just to anger Saty.

Beating a bunch of scrubby Wipers? That would just bore me. ^_^

 

[Yellowcorn]

SF4 has basically made a strong footsies game all but irrelevant unless

there is a specific match being played. In ST and 3S footsies reigned

supreme, but in SF4 there are too many characters with too many moves which

completely avoid the old ground based poke/counterpoke game altogether. And

I'm fine with that. I just don't think that avoiding the fundamental aspect

of what makes Street Fighter what it is should be rewarded with so much

damage.

Not just this, but your other posts too. I hope this makes a shred of sense.

The way I've always seen it...players are made up of different areas of interest and abilities... zoning, footsies, execution, intangibles, etc. Different games place different levels of importance on these and further, within those games different characters alter this further. This is how I figured they appealed to a core audience, and then got people "almost" interested by making characters that further change the game towards their interests/abilities. Some people place more importance on footsies with inherent huge punishes, some people like footsies with a dexterity requirement for the reward.

Correct me if I'm wrong here... but there are a number of good players who hardly played SF4 at all until AE came along (Hsien, MDR, maybe more?) If it was about playing top tier, they could have just played other characters in previous versions... I'm guessing what they like is the change in pace. For every person who loves the turtly style of SF4, there's someone who can't stand it.

It sounds like you want SF4 to be modern ST, and AE moves it even further away from this which bothers you... I think your undervaluing of oki and execution just represents where you land on the compass of preferences and where you place your respect, not that Viper and Yun are actually nonsense.

I don't think this is a valid criticism of AE, Viper or Yun, since it's had a bit of this from the start. It's just gone much more in that direction for AE. There's ALWAYS going to be some amount of people who prefer Alpha 2 over Alpha 3, or 2I over 3S, but there will be people (like me!) who prefer AE over Super by far.


I can only imagine how much you'd hate Fuerte if he was S tier...

 

[N4Us]

Viper should be buffed in AE2012 imo

 

[gutabo]

Holy... so much hate!

IMHO, people that think that landing ultra 1 with viper is easy... it's not. I think the execution barrier for her is just fine(well, I played mostly Honda, back when I used to play so there's that). I used to play krone on a daily basis back in the day(ssf4 lag ftw!), and anyone can make a couple of good guesses with her but getting consistent wins is a complete different story.

Personally I hate dive kicks more. Low risk/high reward FTL. I hated Rufus for that reason(well, I played mostly Honda, back when I used to play so there's that). I used to play Ken I a lot back in the day(vanilla lag ftw!) and I raged HARD against him. It made me feel like I had to take a wild guess with all the odds against me, which I don't think it's the case with Viper. I never felt helpless against krone(once he got in) the way Ken I made me feel(once he got in). I even think I might have PTSD because of Ken I. It might well be my character choice. I have no experience against Yun so my tale ends here.

I have a question tho: should I buy AE now? is it worth it? or it's better for my liver if I just wait for the patch?

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Rufus makes me rage more than the Twins. Being able to dive kick so close to the ground pisses me off.

I feel more in control when playing the twins, even with their powers.

 

[stabicron7]

Holy... so much hate!

IMHO, people that think that landing ultra 1 with viper is easy... it's not. I think the execution barrier for her is just fine(well, I played mostly Honda, back when I used to play so there's that). I used to play krone on a daily basis back in the day(ssf4 lag ftw!), and anyone can make a couple of good guesses with her but getting consistent wins is a complete different story.

Personally I hate dive kicks more. Low risk/high reward FTL. I hated Rufus for that reason(well, I played mostly Honda, back when I used to play so there's that). I used to play Ken I a lot back in the day(vanilla lag ftw!) and I raged HARD against him. It made me feel like I had to take a wild guess with all the odds against me, which I don't think it's the case with Viper. I never felt helpless against krone(once he got in) the way Ken I made me feel(once he got in). I even think I might have PTSD because of Ken I. It might well be my character choice. I have no experience against Yun so my tale ends here.

I have a question tho: should I buy AE now? is it worth it? or it's better for my liver if I just wait for the patch?

I'd wait for the patch myself. Then again apparently the patch will be free so up to you. I will warn you if you hate dive kicks the twins will make you rage.

 

[MIMIC]

It's not a X vs. X thing. Footsies and execution are both incredibly important. If you have a player who can do every combo in the game 100% of the time but who doesn't understand spacing or how to play defense, then they are going to get blown up. Just like the guy who understands footsies and spacing but has shitty execution will also get blown up.

When I compare execution to footsies, I'm not talking about the execution required for performing typical combos (Ryu, Bison, Honda). That's why I made the distinction by saying "high-precision". I'm talking about the design of a character. The Viper, Gen, Fuerte, Ibuki, etc. trials aren't the hardest in the game by coincidence. They operate with a unique style of execution which some would consider pretty difficult.

NO CHARACTER is easy to play at a high level. NOT ONE. But the rewards characters like Viper and Yun get far outweigh the execution needed to play them.

What would be the point of Viper if she got a shitty reward for being able to perform intricate inputs on the fly? She'd be pointless.

And remember we're talking about ONE guy here: Latif. It's not like every other Viper is wiping the floor with everyone. How bout we give LATIF some credit? Are you going to shit on Ryu simply because Daigo makes it look so easy? They take full advantage of the character and you can't blame the character because the person playing it is so uniquely dominant.

Then that is your own bias at work. No one has said she is unfair, people just have an opinion about how she plays and the ridiculous damage she does.

Well I got the impression that you think she's pretty unfair. But if not then OK.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Correct me if I'm wrong here... but there are a number of good players who hardly played SF4 at all until AE came along (Hsien, MDR, maybe more?)"


Hsien Chang played SF4 before AE. He was playing Akuma in Vanilla. MDR was at the Japanese National Tournament for Vanilla. Hell, MDR beat Daigo at the Japanese National Tournament.

 

[Yellowcorn]

"Correct me if I'm wrong here... but there are a number of good players who hardly played SF4 at all until AE came along (Hsien, MDR, maybe more?)"


Hsien Chang played SF4 before AE. He was playing Akuma in Vanilla. MDR was at the Japanese National Tournament for Vanilla. Hell, MDR beat Daigo at the Japanese National Tournament.

Well I guess I'm wrong. Wish I could think of more names, it was brought to my attention for a bunch, but I can't remember... though I don't recall seeing any or MDR in Super.

Kazunoko?

Feel free to fill in the blanks.


edit: found plenty of Hsien with better searching

 

[cHaotix8]

A good Chun can beat most characters without having to use combos, just good ole whiff punishing and anti airing. Footsies > Execution.

And yeah, Hsien money matched Daigo at Evo last year with Dudley. He's been playing SF4 since 08.

 

[Relix]

A good Chun can beat most characters without having to use combos, just good ole whiff punishing and anti airing. Footsies > Execution.

*raises hand*

This is how I win XD!