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[Satyamdas]

It sounds like you want SF4 to be modern ST, and AE moves it even further away from this which bothers you... I think your undervaluing of oki and execution just represents where you land on the compass of preferences and where you place your respect, not that Viper and Yun are actually nonsense.

I don't undervalue oki or execution at all, and I don't see how you are getting that from anything I've said. Execution and mindgames are both integral parts of SF, and I'd have it no other way. I want them to be parts of SF. There are people out there who clamor for a SF which has zero barrier to entry as far as execution and I think they are batshit insane. Part of the game is performing complex moves under pressure. But as someone who has been playing since SF2, I know that learning to do moves and combos is not some herculean feat, not by any stretch. Not even Viper's supposedly "high execution" shit. So when people throw the "bubububu high execution!!!" at me as a rebuttal when I say she has a ton of brain dead shit, I am dismissive of that. Not only is her shit not hard to do, but it doesn't justify the amount of nonsense the character has to me. If you think she is perfect as is then that's cool. We can agree to disagree.

Yun is nonsense, I don't care what you or anyone has to say about that. He is just too strong in every area (except health).

Viper is nonsense, but this is my personal opinion about the design of the character. I am not telling anyone that I'm right and they are wrong. I don't like her moves, her easy mixups which lead to free ultras, I don't like any character with a super jump, I don't like her design, I don't like anything about the character. This is a personal taste thing about her as a whole, and I am not saying that she is broken or overpowered. I hope this is clear enough.

I don't think this is a valid criticism of AE, Viper or Yun, since it's had a bit of this from the start. It's just gone much more in that direction for AE. There's ALWAYS going to be some amount of people who prefer Alpha 2 over Alpha 3, or 2I over 3S, but there will be people (like me!) who prefer AE over Super by far.

This comes back to what we individually prize in our fighting games. I think having the best balance possible is a good thing and worthy of striving towards. I see the huge imbalance of AE as a negative (and apparently so does Capcom which is why they are patching it), and prefer it not to be there. To each his own.

I can only imagine how much you'd hate Fuerte if he was S tier...

Fuerte is another character which completely avoids the fundamental aspects of SF in favor of gimmicks and a pure 50-50 guessing game. If he were S tier it would bother me no more than Yun being S tier because even at C tier, I can lose to Fuerte simply by guessing wrong a few times in a row.

In my opinion this kind of gameplay rewards randomness and punishes solid fundamentals. That element of guessing what the opponent will do is always going to be there and is a huge part of SF, but Fuerte is a whole character devoted to that element. I don't like him but I don't find him as obnoxious as Viper since he still has to work a bit more for his wins. She is handed wins on a silver platter in comparison.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Fuudo should pick up Chun then. Saty too.

Chun taking all majors until AE2012 drops.

 

[Teknopathetic]

You could probably think up some names, but it's not sufficient evidence for your assertion that they only just got into AE because of a different pace.

And for what its worth, I've always felt any claims in difference of pace between SF4/SSF4/AE were complete bullshit.

 

[Yellowcorn]

You could probably think up some names, but it's not sufficient evidence for your assertion that they only just got into AE because of a different pace.

And for what its worth, I've always felt any claims in difference of pace between SF4/SSF4/AE were complete bullshit.

Well, for evidence there's me at least... I greatly prefer it, and would rather fight 100 yuns than 5 Honda's. Maybe "pace" isn't specific enough, but there's a different dynamic about the average match I prefer... way more aggression imo.

You don't think that there's a different value(on average) placed on aggression/defensiveness between SF4 and AE? We disagree, I guess.

 

[Teknopathetic]

The only difference is that the more popular/powerful characters between each version have a more offensive or defensive playstyle. If your average match in one version features Sagats more frequently (even though Sagat can certainly be pretty offensive), then obviously you will see more matches with a slower pace than a version where a rushdown character like Yun/Yang is more popular. This isn't universal, though, only matchup specific. The Sagat/Zangief matchup looks the exact same in every version.

 

[Satyamdas]

When I compare execution to footsies, I'm not talking about the execution required for performing typical combos (Ryu, Bison, Honda). That's why I made the distinction by saying "high-precision". I'm talking about the design of a character. The Viper, Gen, Fuerte, Ibuki, etc. trials aren't the hardest in the game by coincidence. They operate with a unique style of execution which some would consider pretty difficult.

Even after a player has mastered the "high precision" execution needed for their character, they still need to have a strong fundamentally sound spacing and defensive game or else they get blown up. You basically said those fundamentals which players improve on for as long as they play, are easy to get down in comparison to "high execution". It remains nonsense.

What would be the point of Viper if she got a shitty reward for being able to perform intricate inputs on the fly? She'd be pointless.

She gets a GREAT reward for nothing more than a mashed out EX Seismo, Burn Kick, or a HP Thunder Knuckle, even if it trades. None of those are high execution moves or combos. Should she get high damage for FFF? Of course. Should having FFF in her repertoire mean that she also gets 5000 piss easy ultra setups? No.

And remember we're talking about ONE guy here: Latif. It's not like every other Viper is wiping the floor with everyone. How bout we give LATIF some credit? Are you going to shit on Ryu simply because Daigo makes it look so easy? They take full advantage of the character and you can't blame the character because the person playing it is so uniquely dominant.

I'm not even talking about Latif. I know plenty of Viper players who can do all of her combos 99% of the time too, and it doesn't change anything. I am talking about the character's abilities and qualities, not about player skill.

Well I got the impression that you think she's pretty unfair. But if not then OK.

Not unfair, just stupid and badly designed.

 

[kitzkozan]

This comes back to what we individually prize in our fighting games. I think having the best balance possible is a good thing and worthy of striving towards. I see the huge imbalance of AE as a negative (and apparently so does Capcom which is why they are patching it), and prefer it not to be there. To each his own.

I'll agree with that good sir. I hope the rebalance strike a nice medium between the defensive borefest of super and offensive AE.

 

[Satyamdas]

Holy... so much hate!

IMHO, people that think that landing ultra 1 with viper is easy... it's not.

Guty you know I <3 you. But that is just nonsense man. I know plenty of Viper players who will tell you that landing her Ultra 1 is too easy. Landing Honda's Ultra 1? Now *that* is hard!

 

[kitzkozan]

Even after a player has mastered the "high precision" execution needed for their character, they still need to have a strong fundamentally sound spacing and defensive game or else they get blown up. You basically said those fundamentals which players improve on for as long as they play, are easy to get down in comparison to "high execution". It remains nonsense.

Look no further than Marlinpie who's got the execution and precision. Sadly, spacing and defense is not his strong point and how often have we seen him get blown the fuck up? There was a MvC3 match where I was asking myself if he had forgotten that you can block in the game...

 

[Satyamdas]

Look no further than Marlinpie who's got the execution and precision. Sadly, spacing and defense is not his strong point and how often have we seen him get blown the fuck up? There was a MvC3 match where I was asking myself if he had forgotten that you can block in the game...

How shocking that a Viper player would falter when it comes to blocking.

 

[Axis]

Look no further than Marlinpie who's got the execution and precision. Sadly, spacing and defense is not his strong point and how often have we seen him get blown the fuck up? There was a MvC3 match where I was asking myself if he had forgotten that you can block in the game...

marlin gets blown up often in AE, obviously...because of his lack of fundamentals; his execution is gdlk, however. <3 mvc3 viper <3

 

[Killa Sasa]

I would happily return to AE 2012 if Cammy gets a lower dive restriction or several other characters become as "good" as Yun or Makoto. They're some of the more fun characters to play because their stuff is actually good (in this engine, anyway).

I don't get why it's so hard to have characters that feel powerful.

Also, as my friend said this weekend at EVO, "Virtua Fighter is a house of HEROES." Fuudo put on a friggin clinic. Despite me liking Marvel more, AE was far and away the best tourney this year, and best top 8 by a mile.

 

[Professor Beef]

How shocking that a Viper player would falter when it comes to blocking.

To be fair, it's pretty much just MarlinPie that doesn't know how to block.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I was just looking at my friends list and this fei long player all of a sudden is playing VF5 lol.


lol

Dat Fuudo influence.

Too bad the PS3 version of VF5 is like 6 revisions behind Arcade.

 

[Satyamdas]

To be fair, it's pretty much just MarlinPie that doesn't know how to block.

Uhh, did you somehow miss Latif mashing out EX Seismo on wakeup 75% of the time and getting blown up for it by Fuudo? And in the after hours suite Gamerbee exposed that shit and bodied him, as did Fuudo in 2 more sets. Krone and Crizzle are the only American Viper players I've seen who know how to block.

 

[Professor Beef]

Uhh, did you somehow miss Latif mashing out EX Seismo on wakeup 75% of the time and getting blown up for it by Fuudo? And in the after hours suite Gamerbee exposed that shit and bodied him, as did Fuudo in 2 more sets. Krone and Crizzle are the only American Viper players I've seen who know how to block.

I was talking about Marvel 3, not Latif's match. And I didn't bother watching the after hours stuff, but I saw his match with Fuudo. Seemed like his tricks were working in the beginning, but he didn't know how to switch it up and Fuudo simply read him like a book.

 

[Rentahamster]

Yep, Latif just ran out of tricks. I remember exclaiming out loud, "why the hell does he keep doing wakeup EX seismo?!?!?!" at the same time that Seth did.

Was he doing it as often during SBO qualifiers? Maybe I just didn't notice because he wasn't getting punished for it.

 

[Satyamdas]

I was talking about Marvel 3, not Latif's match. And I didn't bother watching the after hours stuff, but I saw his match with Fuudo. Seemed like his tricks were working in the beginning, but he didn't know how to switch it up and Fuudo simply read him like a book.

I was talking about MarlinPie being a Viper player in Vanilla and Super, and having poor defense as a consequence. Why block when you can mash some shit and get dat Ultra?

 

[Professor Beef]

Why block when you can mash some shit and get dat Ultra?

You can say that about any non-charge character.

 

[Satyamdas]

You can say that about any non-charge character.

Really? What does Ken have that is equivalent of wakeup EX Seismo > Ultra? Sagat? Gouken? Cammy? Sakura?

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Uhh, did you somehow miss Latif mashing out EX Seismo on wakeup 75% of the time and getting blown up for it by Fuudo? And in the after hours suite Gamerbee exposed that shit and bodied him, as did Fuudo in 2 more sets. Krone and Crizzle are the only American Viper players I've seen who know how to block.

Just to play devil's advocate, if it's so easy to blow up (as evidenced by these players), what is the major problem with it.

Is the Viper mystery over after EVO now? Has it been solved? Was the problem that America has no matchup experience?

Would Latif's Viper get blown up at SBO?

 

[wario]

Uhh, did you somehow miss Latif mashing out EX Seismo on wakeup 75% of the time and getting blown up for it by Fuudo? And in the after hours suite Gamerbee exposed that shit and bodied him, as did Fuudo in 2 more sets. Krone and Crizzle are the only American Viper players I've seen who know how to block.

just to add to this, latif lost in straights sets to gamerbee in a separate FT3 MM on the showroom floor.

link

 

[Sblargh]

I tried to stay away, but EVO pulled me back. Ok, I was getting good with Makoto back when she was crap, apparently she is good now, what I need to know about AE Makoto?

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I wonder if we can expect anything new with ver.2012, like a third ultra. goukens 2nd ultra is ballsack.

Really? What does Ken have that is equivalent of wakeup EX Seismo > Ultra? Sagat? Gouken? Cammy? Sakura?

I'll say gouken has no equivalent to ex seismo. ex demonflip puts you back at square 1, IF you aren't punished for doing throwing it out to begin with(not a good move on wakeup). ex tatsu whiffs on crouching and is -120 frames on whiff....Blocking and option select crouch tech with cr. mk is one of Goukens best tools, which isn't saying much.

 

[Professor Beef]

Really? What does Ken have that is equivalent of wakeup EX Seismo > Ultra? Sagat? Gouken? Cammy? Sakura?

Ken: U1, or SRK FADC U1
Sagat: Tiger Uppercut FADC U1

Congratulations, you got me on the other characters you listed.

I wonder if we can expect any new with ver.2012, like a third ultra. goukens 2nd ultra is ballsack.

It NEEDS to be unblockable.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Just to play devil's advocate, if it's so easy to blow up (as evidenced by these players), what is the major problem with it.

Is the Viper mystery over after EVO now? Has it been solved? Was the problem that America has no matchup experience?

Would Latif's Viper get blown up at SBO?

Fuudo is just a better player than everyone. He's too godlike. That's the answer.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Fuudo is just a better player than everyone. He's too godlike. That's the answer.

Maybe that is the answer, we ALL need to become better players.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Ken: U1, or SRK FADC U1
Sagat: Tiger Uppercut FADC U1

Congratulations, you got me on the other characters you listed.



It NEEDS to be unblockable.

Basically..... problem is meaty denjin would be so cheap unless you have an invincible move, so that won't happen. The good thing about denjin is that their are some decent os's to beat backdashes with it, the backthrow>shin sho nerf almost makes denjin worth using, but fuck that shit.

 

[gutabo]

lolz.gif

Guty you know I <3 you. But that is just nonsense man. I know plenty of Viper players who will tell you that landing her Ultra 1 is too easy. Landing Honda's Ultra 1? Now *that* is hard!

Ok I feel better now Viper can suck my ****!!!

 

[Professor Beef]

Basically, problem is meaty denjin would be so cheap unless you have an invincible move, so that won't happen. The good thing about denjin is that their are some decent os's to beat backdashes with it, the backthrow>shin sho nerf almost makes denjing worth using, but fuck that shit.

What if it was unblockable, but they cut the damage on it and made it so the damage scaling from the stun isn't as harsh? That way it's still viable compared to straight up backthrow>U1.

 

[Satyamdas]

Just to play devil's advocate, if it's so easy to blow up (as evidenced by these players), what is the major problem with it.

Is the Viper mystery over after EVO now? Has it been solved? Was the problem that America has no matchup experience?

Would Latif's Viper get blown up at SBO?

There isn't a problem with it. It's just a phenomena where the move is so braindead and works so well that even "top" Viper players refuse to block and still rely on mashing it out. My only issue is that it's an Ultra for 1 bar of EX meter for a move with too much invincibility. For this supposed "high execution" character that seems a bit too derpy for my tastes.

There is no Viper mystery. Shit just watch Latif vs. Krone and you will see that they can't even block Viper's mixups. People will always get blown up by Viper due to the nature of her design and damage.

Latif would get raped, skull fucked, and then blown up at SBO. The japanese players don't play that mashing shit, plus they have much better Viper players of their own over there.

Ken: U1, or SRK FADC U1
Sagat: Tiger Uppercut FADC U1

Congratulations, you got me on the other characters you listed.

Ken's U1? That shit starts up in like 90 frames. You will not catch anything with that that you would with EX Seismo. SRK FADC U1? Scales to shit and costs two meters. Same with Sagat. Ex Seismo > Ultra costs one meter, and there is no FADC involved so the damage isn't scaled the same.

Those aren't the same thing. So Viper clearly has more incentive to mash some shit out rather than block, in comparison to almost every other character.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

What if it was unblockable, but they cut the damage on it and made it so the damage scaling from the stun isn't as harsh? That way it's still viable compared to straight up backthrow>U1.

that would be nice, but I don't see them changing stun properties for 1 character, they couldn't even bother making a counter system that wasn't bound to the Focus attack system which is blown up by wakeup special of your choice. Pipe dream I think, I don't even really want it to be unblockable, just a decent 2nd option. When I play dudley and select u1 against certain characters it's a deterrent for them not to do certain stuff or stupid stuff, something that puts the fear of God in my opponent would be nice seeing as Gouken isn't exactly a scary character.

 

[Professor Beef]

Well, I answered your question about what they have that is similar to Viper's wakeup option. So if you're going to dismiss it simply because "they're not the same thing," then I guess there's no point in continuing this discussion with you. It's what I get for trying to discuss this when you're so vehemently against Viper though. Silly me.

that would be nice, but I don't see them changing stun properties for 1 character, they couldn't even bother making a counter system that wasn't bound to the Focus attack system which is blown up by wakeup special of your choice. Pipe dream I think, I don't even really want it to be unblockable, just a decent 2nd option. When I play dudley and select u1 against certain characters it's a deterrent for them not to do certain stuff or stupid stuff, something that puts the fear of God in my opponent would be nice seeing as Gouken isn't exactly a scary character.

I guess you're right. Makes me sad because I used to love playing as Gouken.

 

[Satyamdas]

Well, I answered your question about what they have that is similar to Viper's wakeup option. So if you're going to dismiss it simply because "they're not the same thing," then I guess there's no point in continuing this discussion with you. It's what I get for trying to discuss this when you're so vehemently against Viper though. Silly me.

You said every non-charge character has something similar to EX Seismo > Ultra on wakeup. I asked for examples that would result in the same damage for the same cost of 1 bar of EX meter. There don't exist any. She is unique in that regard, and it is why you will see so many Viper players mash that shit out on their wakeup. With that kind of reward I don't blame them for doing it at all.

Nothing to get your panties in a twist over. ^_^

 

[kitzkozan]

Gouken is one character who simply need more options, so a simple character rebalance won't do much for him. He need more than that imo...

Heck, ultra 2 should make it so the deijin cause a solid wallbounce even if you FADC or backthrow into it. Yun get a palm which can cause a huge wallbounce while Gouken's ultra 2 result in a weak one unless you connect with it raw. It's so weak that you can't do anything with it while Yun can ultra 1 and connect with a special when the opponent fall down. Fucking lame...

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Gouken is one character who simply need more options, so a simple character rebalance won't do much for him. He need more than that imo...

Heck, ultra 2 should make it so the deijin cause a solid wallbounce even if you FADC or backthrow into it. Yun get a palm which can cause a huge wallbounce while Gouken's ultra 2 result in a weak one unless you connect with it raw. It's so weak that you can't do anything with it while Yun can ultra 1 and connect with a special when the opponent fall down. Fucking lame...

I agree, the fact that he has no favorable matches aside for maybe hakkan is kinda telling. I think it would be nice if they gave him back his non-demonflip divekick overhead back, this would make his slide more potent as you have to react to high or low, as of right now, you have no reason to not just block crouching. If not they could at least make it knockdown the way akumas does, I chalk the character up to poor design, they had a different spin on typical shoto style but didn't want to make him too strong for players to use. But then you have Akuma, anything gouken can do, akuma can do much better. He's better at zoning, better defense, better rushdown etc. whatever, still gotta rep the low tier boss.

 

[kitzkozan]

I agree, the fact that he has no favorable matches aside for maybe hakkan is kinda telling. I think it would be nice if they gave him back his non-demonflip divekick overhead back, this would make his slide more potent as you have to react to high or low, as of right now, you have no reason to not just block crouching. If not they could at least make it knockdown the way akumas does, I chalk the character up to poor design, they had a different spin on typical shoto style but didn't want to make him too strong for players to use. But then you have Akuma, anything gouken can do, akuma can do much better. He's better at zoning, better defense, better rushdown etc. whatever, still gotta rep the low tier boss.

Lol yeah, Gouken is pure ass. I <3 the old man but he's been screwed by lack of foresight. Giving him back a divekick which can act as an overhead would be a start along with a fun U2. Outside of that, he simply should be able to use his forbidden shoryu all the time (and make a new super). He becomes another shoto, but that's how and why they usually work. I would like to see him with a tatsu super since he's the inspiration for Ryu.

 

[AZ Greg]

Saty IRC tears flowing into the OT, I see.

Good stuff.

 

[Kimosabae]

You make the mistake in thinking I was comparing Sim's combos to Viper's combos. It takes much less time to learn Sim's than Viper's, but to learn all of Sim's normals for any given situation, to learn how to escape pressure without a reversal, to learn how to trap and zone your opponent, takes a hell of a lot longer than it takes to get FFF down pat.

I used that as one example of Viper's execution barrier. Execution barrier, by my definition, is the minimum threshold necessary to play a character competently enough to access the "meat" of the game (as you put it). Execution barrier is only one aspect of playing a character competently and it is relatively high for Viper. Because it is relatively high for Viper, she requires more dedication in this area.

Now, what's the measuring stick for these bolded assertions? If you want to make the argument that the focus is stronger for Sim regarding these gameplay elements (where the "meat" lies) - I can buy that. SSF4 AE Viper is an overall better character than SSF4 AE Sim. Sim has low life and low damage and he has to compensate through zoning his opponent and keeping them out. He has no traditional Reversal, but his teleport functions the same in allowing him to escape pressure, so your statement regarding that is demonstrably false.

But you want to make the assertion that Viper doesn't need to focus on trapping and zoning at all? Nah, son. Seismo, Seismo Cancel, Meterless FADC and Seismo Chains (for example) are tools that demonstrate otherwise. You'd consider this if you actually played the character to any reasonable degree. But you don't, and you have a shitty outlook on the character and its players that makes your reasoning specious. The difference between Viper and Sim (besides the fact that their emphases are different) is that Viper's very gameplay strategies and tactics require more dedication to execution, because much of her current gameplay is predicated on dextrous techniques. Thus, coupled with time investment necessary to comprehend the "meat" of the game in relation to Viper, she requires a relatively large degree of dedication. Which character requires more general dedication between Sim and Viper I could give a fuckless about arguing.

You'd like to pretend the character doesn't rely on strategies at all. Have more fun with that.

So execution is not the be-all-end-all thing that you promote it as.

Never propped it up as such.

Did I ever say anyone hits every combo perfectly 100% of the time? No. I said they can practice to the point where doing every move is TRIVIAL. If a player can rely on hitting his combos 97 times out of 100, then that execution can be considered trivial and irrelevant.

Again, your utilitarian bias towards Viper is obvious. When it comes to Viper, only the consequences matter, but when it's regarding Sim... "Oh the trials and tribulations! I had to learn to deal with Wakeup Pressure with no Reversal, how to trap and zone and become intimate with each and every normal! I walked barfeoot in the fucking snow! Woe is me!".

Viper has no learning curve. It's all "Herp Derp".

I have played the character. I don't like the character. I don't need to main Viper to have an opinion about her movesets and damage and playstyle.

Of course not. But if you want to have a critical opinion that's worth a shit to someone that plays the character, it helps if your opinion is derived from premises refined from experiences playing the character.

I'll tell you what, in support of your argument: I hammered a nail with a hammer once or twice. I'm going to go tell the local carpenter his job is unskilled and "mindless" because, given enough time, anyone can do his job/.

From here, you're probably going to want to make the assertion that I can't play Viper well, and that only those that do something well can formulate a critical opinion on it: an ad hominem which would swiftly invalidate your own statements.

at the bolded, I fucking LOL'd hard.

EX Seismo > Ultra and Burn Kick > Ultra require "relative" precision? Relative to what? A monkey mashing the stick? You've got to be taking the piss. At least SJC > Ultra requires some execution but even that is piss easy with practice.

Relative to Ryu/Ken's/Cammy's/Sakura's/Gouken's/Sagat's/Cody's/Adon's or any other character that has an FADC -> Ultra. These Ultra setups require no strict timing (read: performing Ultra ASAP after FADC is acceptable) - presumably because they cost half meter.

- Rog's Headbutt -> Ultra 1.

- Rufus' Ultra 1 Setups

- Chun's Ultra 2 Setups.

etc.

Basically, relative to any other Ultra in the game that can be comboed into.

Let's not forget that you chose to ignore (or don't know) that all Viper's setups require different timings - some of which are precariously similar to each other, making them easily confounding at times.

Also, sucks SJC Ultra is missed so often by top Vipers when it's so easy for you. You really need to show them your secret.

You can repeat your mantra all day, son. Doesn't make it truth. I beat you and a plethora of other Vipers enough to where I have no reason to be salty about the character.

I WANT TO 100% CONFIRM TO EVERYONE READING THIS THAT SATY HAS INDEED BEATEN MY VIPER NUMEROUS TIMES. JUST IN CASE YOU WERE DOUBTING THE VALIDITY OF HIS STATEMENTS.

Wait...

Expressing a negative opinion about a thing is not necessarily "hating" on it, nor does it mean one must be "salty". For being as verbose and pretentious as you are I'd figure you would know that, but I guess you gotta get your petty little insults in.

Thanks for the kind words!

So you are waking up as Viper, and rather than block a meaty or backdash, you mash out EX Seismo. Player was going for a meaty, gets hit and juggled, and you get a free 400 damage Ultra. Or instead, you go for HP Thunder Knuckle as a reversal to a jump in, it trades, and you get a free 400 damage Ultra. Or your opponent is waking up in the corner, you do a Burn Kick, they guess the wrong direction, you get a free 400 damage Ultra.

Shitty hypotheticals with the whiny slant ("mashing?"). Because getting hit by a Reversal into Ultra when pressuring on Wakeup is completely specific to Viper. The last hypothetical is on you, since BK won't crossup in the corner. Ever.

But hey, blame your ineptitude and ignorance on Viper.

*yawns*

Then maybe the mistake is that they made Yun too powerful in relation to the rest of the cast? Nooooo, couldn't be that.

That's a legit outlook, but I think powerful characters are fun. Games with powerful characters I find to be more fun than characters with relatively few (MvC3 > SSF4 in pure fun factor for me). Hence, my converse outlook.

*shrugs*

But hey, I'm not the one trying to seriously propose the argument "Viper players are mindless" without seeing how hilariously untenable that is under scrutiny. And you want to suggest there's problems with the way I think.

 

[Axis]

lol walls of text

 

[Professor Beef]

lol walls of text

Walls of salt would be more accurate.

 

[Rice-Eater]

I've been suffering from Post-EVO depression. But the wall of text has put a smile on my face.

 

[Axis]

Walls of salt would be more accurate.

pretentious wall of text is what i should have typed :3

 

[Teknopathetic]

"pretentious wall of text is what i should have typed :3"

That's kimosabae posts.

 

[black_vegeta]

I've been suffering from Post-EVO depression. But the wall of text has put a smile on my face.

lol

 

[Satyamdas]

I used that as one example of Viper's execution barrier. Execution barrier, by my definition, is the minimum threshold necessary to play a character competently enough to access the "meat" of the game (as you put it). Execution barrier is only one aspect of playing a character competently and it is relatively high for Viper. Because it is relatively high for Viper, she requires more dedication in this area.

Now, what's the measuring stick for these bolded assertions? If you want to make the argument that the focus is stronger for Sim regarding these gameplay elements (where the "meat" lies) - I can buy that. SSF4 AE Viper is an overall better character than SSF4 AE Sim. Sim has low life and low damage and he has to compensate through zoning his opponent and keeping them out. He has no traditional Reversal, but his teleport functions the same in allowing him to escape pressure, so your statement regarding that is demonstrably false.

You get it mostly right, and then show your complete ignorance with that last statement. Sim gets blown up for using teleport on wakeup if the other player is even semi-competent.

But you want to make the assertion that Viper doesn't need to focus on trapping and zoning at all? Nah, son. Seismo, Seismo Cancel, Meterless FADC and Seismo Chains (for example) are tools that demonstrate otherwise. You'd consider this if you actually played the character to any reasonable degree. But you don't, and you have a shitty outlook on the character and its players that makes your reasoning specious. The difference between Viper and Sim (besides the fact that their emphases are different) is that Viper's very gameplay strategies and tactics require more dedication to execution, because much of her current gameplay is predicated on it. Thus, coupled with time investment necessary to comprehend the "meat" of the game in relation to Viper, she requires a relatively large degree of dedication. Which character requires more general dedication between Sim and Viper I could give a fuckless about arguing.

You'd like to pretend the character doesn't rely on strategies at all. Have more fun with that.

Oh but I DO know she has strategies. Strategies such as

1. Spam safe Burn Kicks at all times.
2. Super Jump to safety any time the pressure is on.
3. Wakeup? BETTER MASH DAT EX SEISMO!!
4. Land your super high damage Ultra in any myriad of easy setups.
5. ???
6. Profit!

^_^

Again, your utilitarian bias towards Viper is obvious. When it comes to Viper, only the consequences matter, but when it's regarding Sim... "Oh the trials and tribulations! I had to learn to deal with Wakeup Pressure with no Reversal, how to trap and zone and become intimate with each and every normal! I walked barfeoot in the fucking snow! Woe is me!".

When did I bellyache about what it takes to play Sim? It's not a good look when you have to put words in other people's mouths. All I was pointing out was that *every* character requires a huge time investment to play at a high level, and that time investment is focused on different areas depending on the character. You have your myopic high execution goggles on though and missed the point completely.

Viper has no learning curve. It's all "Herp Derp".

Wrong. She has a learning curve. Every character does. You can't unleash the herp derp until you have the execution down. Once you learn her, then the herp derp can begin. And she is rewarded with too many Ultra setups, and too much damage relative to that learning curve. From the way you talk about her execution if I didn't know any better I would think that it takes some elite human with skills that only 1% of all humanity possesses in order to FFF or SJC > Ultra with Viper. But I do know better and it's just not the truth.

Of course not. But if you want to have a critical opinion that's worth a shit to someone that plays the character, it helps if your opinion is derived from premises refined from experiences playing the character.

I'm not interested in whether you give weight to my opinions. The fact that you play the character and are so breathless in your rush to argue against my admittedly exaggerated opinion of her signals to me that I might have struck a nerve. Particularly since you don't seem to even have full command of the character yet. It's like you think I am attacking you personally when nothing could be further from the truth.

I could stop playing SF completely and I still will have a valid opinion about the characters in the game because I am opining as to their tools, damage, and playstyle, and none of these things require me to play the game in order to grasp.

I'll tell you what, in support of your argument: I hammered a nail with a hammer once or twice. I'm going to go tell the local carpenter his job is unskilled and "mindless" because, given enough time, anyone can do his job/.

Do you know how many times I've been told that Sim is easy mode because all you have to do is mash st.HP and b+HK to win? You know what I say in response? "LOL". I don't need to defend against people's negative opinions because I know they are just trolling and/or are wrong. The fact you feel like you have to write tomes in defense of my shit talking of Viper tells me you think there is merit in what I am saying, otherwise why bother? I'm just some dumb troll who doesn't know anything, right?

"He doth protest too much."

From here, you're probably going to want to make the assertion that I can't play Viper well, and that only those that do something well can formulate a critical opinion on it: an ad hominem which would swiftly invalidate your own statements.

Not only do you put words in my mouth, now you are inserting thoughts into my head. Why even reply to me if you know what I'm going to think and say?

Just goes to show you are way too sensitive about this, because your particular skill with Viper is irrelevant. I am talking strictly about the tools and qualities of the character, not the player.

But by all means, put more words in my mouth and do my thinking for me.

Relative to Ryu/Ken's/Cammy's/Sakura's/Gouken's/Sagat's/Cody's/Adon's or any other character that has an FADC -> Ultra. These Ultra setups require no strict timing (read: performing Ultra ASAP after FADC is acceptable) - presumably because they cost half meter.

- Rog's Headbutt -> Ultra 1.

- Rufus' Ultra 1 Setups

- Chun's Ultra 2 Setups.

etc.

Basically, relative to any other Ultra in the game that can be comboed into.

Let's not forget that you chose to ignore (or don't know) that all Viper's setups require different timings - some of which are precariously similar to each other.

All those Ultra setups you listed are on the exact same level of difficulty as EX Seismo > Ultra or Burn Kick > Ultra. If you think that Viper's Ultra setups require more precision than them then you are obviously too blinded by your allegiance to the character to see the reality. I will say the same thing about Rufus's many braindead Ultra setups. He doesn't need that many just like Viper doesn't. Or if they do have that many, then the damage for the Ultra needs to be nerfed. It's really simple. I don't have a problem with Chun's or Rog's setups to Ultra because the damage is accordingly low.

Also, sucks SJC Ultra is missed so often by top Vipers when it's so easy for you. You really need to show them your secret.

I don't see top Viper players dropping that very often at all. Your threshold for what constitutes a top Viper player must be exceedingly low.

Shitty hypotheticals with the whiny slant ("mashing?"). Because getting hit by a Reversal into Ultra when pressuring on Wakeup is completely specific to Viper. The last hypothetical is on you, since BK won't crossup in the corner. Ever.

But hey, blame your ineptitude and ignorance on Viper.

Hypotheticals? They happen alllllll the time, dude. And I wasn't going to mention your particular skills with Viper, but if you don't know her corner ambiguous cross up/Burn Kick > Ultra setups then you are even more scrubby than I thought.

But hey, I'm not the one trying to seriously propose the argument "Viper players are mindless" without seeing how hilariously untenable that is under scrutiny. I don't think there's any problems with the way I think.

It holds up remarkably well as evidenced by the ease with which Viper wins against even skilled players. I would think something was wrong with a Viper player who tried to play a straightforward, well thought out, and strategic gameplan. Because her tools are so good, her damage is so high, and her mixup is so tough to deal with. I don't begrudge Viper players for going on autopilot, it is the sensible thing to do in my opinion.

But hey, I'm not the one taking someone's not-serious-at-all trolling of Viper to heart and rushing to her defense as if I were a white knight, without seeing how hilarious that looks under scrutiny. I know there's nothing wrong with the way I think. ^_^

 

[black_vegeta]

sooooo much text...

 

[Professor Beef]

 

[black_vegeta]

http://i.imgur.com/68SGE.jpg *NSFW*

 

[biosnake20]

Sooooooooo im late to the party, what are we arguing about?