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Supernatural Season 12 |OT| Mama, I'm Coming Home
- Thread starter PhoncipleBone
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BoxManLocke
Member
Lack of focus is one thing, but the season also lacks an emotional hook and that's a much bigger problem.
This season's plot is not about Sam and Dean. Fair enough. Then you better give me some damn good reasons to care.
Of all the characters that are in play right now, the only one I was starting to give a crap about, they just killed for shock value.
The rest are all mediocre bad guys, a supposed best friend who's never around and a mother who doesn't give a shit about her sons (she can tell otherwise as much as she wants, she sure as hell ain't showing it).
Oh and there's Kelly, the pregnant lady without a personality.
I'm not one of these people who clamor that the show should ONLY be about Sam and Dean (although it's not an ensemble show and never will be). But if you're going to throw new characters in every five seconds, you have to put in the work before the brothers take a step back. Otherwise I'm not going to care.
Except Crowley and Castiel. You can like them.
Couldn't disagree more. This season, specifically the second half, has been a complete breath of fresh air. They've done what I've been hoping they would do: focus on more of a larger ensemble cast while keeping Sam and Dean at the center.
Mary has been a great addition as well. It was a bit shaky in the first half as they tried to figure out what to do with her but the second half has been really good. Tying her in with the Men of Letters was a smart move and I'm exited to see if Ketch tries to go through with killing the brothers and Mary or if he betrays Hess.
What makes this season work for me is the emotional hook you don't think is there. Mary's addition to the series, the Big Bad for the season being other humans for the first time in 12 seasons and the little emotional moments that have been a long time coming -- Cas near death and admitting how much he loves the boys as a family, Sam thanking Crowley for help and finally showing that Crowley actually does care about them through the smile he responded with, Sam hiding something from Dean for a single episode only to have Dean be okay with it, the connection they're building between Sam and Eileen.
A bunch of little moments in this second half of the season that have really helped the season feel fresh and a bit different. I feel like they've even expanded some of the shooting locations as well.
It's certainly not a perfect season. Like I said, the first half was shaky. I didn't like what they were doing with Lucifer. And in the second half, while it's amazing seeing Pellegrino back, I hope they tone down his humor a tiny bit when he escapes as I want to see a scarier Lucifer again.
(Oh, and there's only four episodes left that haven't had a synopsis released for them, which means there's only four episodes left for Bobby to make an appearance this season. And if he doesn't, it will be the first in the series that he doesn't appear in. Screw that. It's time for Bobby to make a big comeback. I'm hoping that Cas being in Heaven for so long leads to us seeing Bobby before the finale and I really want to somehow get a scene between him and Mary.)
BoxManLocke
Member
They're not, though. Not even close. Thursday's episode was very clear about that.
As for Mary, I still think she's got the potential to be the show's best character since Castiel, but having her for five minutes every 3 episodes just to show that she slept with a pscho isn't the best way to treat her I think.
And I completely disagree that anything about her was shaky at the beginning. Her struggles about her comeback felt genuine, and there were still very touching scenes between her and the boys. The problem is, ever since she joined the BMOL they've cut that link she had with her sons.
Castiel got some nice words in like three months ago, yes. Since then he fucked off with angels, and they have the shittiest influence on the character.
I think the first six episodes of the season were exceptionally strong. Like, best season since season 5 strong. It did feel fresh. No more conflict, and an interesting new villain.
Then they added the completely unnecessary Lucifer baby storyline and it all went to shit.
That's the one I really don't get. Like, why is it there at all ? Were the writers afraid that the audience wouldn't stick around without proper monsters for once ?
And more importantly, which characters does this storyline benefit ? So far, no one. That little game Crowley and Lucifer are playing right now could have happened with or without that stupid nephilim in play.
So much this. Ugh. I called it too. I was like 'Well, he's dead.'
Also, at least Cas was mentioned in this episode.
point taken. then they kinda have the same powers. id feel sorry for rowena if she actually liked crowley. shed be outta here quicker than his son
This one episode, yes, they took a bit of a back seat. The season as a whole? Not remotely.
... They did that in one episode. You're being a bit hyperbolic.
I'm gonna wait and see how it plays out first. He's not back this week but he'll be back on the 4/27 episode (all CW shows are off for a week in between).
BoxManLocke
Member
Well not as a whole, obviously. There are still standalones which have been high quality, and some instances where the writers were able ton find a balance, although it happened less and less as the season progressed (last time was episode 14).
To be clear here I'm not just talking about screentime. I'm also talking about the character's emotional involvement. I don't care if Jensen and Jared are on screen 39 minutes out of 40 if they're going to be useless or just be the muscle like episodes 8 and 13 for instance.
I do feel like it's getting a lot worse as the nephilim storyline is gaining importance, because as I said, there's just nothing there that the brothers have a connection with.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Just got caught up on the last few episodes over the weekend. Seems I was right that they would come to an ethical crossroads with how the MoL kill indiscriminately (and they even specifically mentioned Garth). However I was hoping for more a buildup in that friction rather than MoL just straight up crossing the line and offing the one guy that had some actual interest in working with the American hunters.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
I think how much you like this season depends in part to how much you like mary.
I personally don't feel like she has added anything to the show and the best episodes that featured her would have been just as good without her.
She is such a distraction, but even worse an extremely unused distraction. She gas a character arc that barely gets explored and as a result she feels pointless. The brothers have come to terms with her needing her own space and being her own person so quickly that she never feels "done" and unessential because we never spend time with her. When we do spend time with her she has less screen presence than one off characters from motw episodes.
The fact that I feel more attached to that one girl from season one from the haunted painting episode who was killed like 9 seasons later than I do to mary who is supposed to be this seasons biiiiiigggg thing says a lot. Mary just doesn't do anything for me, she's not fun to watch, she never makes me want to root for her, I am never hyped when she is the focus and worst of all I am never looking forward to seeing her. She's just so bleh, like Cas.
I personally don't feel like she has added anything to the show and the best episodes that featured her would have been just as good without her.
She is such a distraction, but even worse an extremely unused distraction. She gas a character arc that barely gets explored and as a result she feels pointless. The brothers have come to terms with her needing her own space and being her own person so quickly that she never feels "done" and unessential because we never spend time with her. When we do spend time with her she has less screen presence than one off characters from motw episodes.
The fact that I feel more attached to that one girl from season one from the haunted painting episode who was killed like 9 seasons later than I do to mary who is supposed to be this seasons biiiiiigggg thing says a lot. Mary just doesn't do anything for me, she's not fun to watch, she never makes me want to root for her, I am never hyped when she is the focus and worst of all I am never looking forward to seeing her. She's just so bleh, like Cas.
Remember when we were hoping that the MoL were going to end up being the Winchesters new backup crew and would open all kinds of new and interesting doors? Nope, they had to be comically evil so that cooperation with them can never happen, because this show must never, ever be about anything other than Sam and Dean not fully getting along. Any friends they make must die or just forever disappear within a maximum of 3 cameo reappearances. (Because you know Eileen "went to Ireland" so they never have to bring her back.)
At this point, I don't think I can drop a show that I've been following this long, but it's getting real old now. Let some of their friends survive and hang around, use the MoL bunker for something, build to something bigger!
At this point, I don't think I can drop a show that I've been following this long, but it's getting real old now. Let some of their friends survive and hang around, use the MoL bunker for something, build to something bigger!
BoxManLocke
Member
This. Adding humans as main villains is completely useless if they aren't going to have any redeeming qualities.
So Sam and Dean just have to kill them now which isn't compelling at all.
In fact the only potential "drama" they have here is related to the Ketch/Mary relationship so I expect them to fully take advantage of it even if it's one of the worst pairings in the show's history
Septimus Prime
Member
Mary really isn't doing anything for me. Like, she really has no impact emotionally, and I don't think I'd even care if they killed or wrote her off. It really feels like they brought her back because they couldn't get John.
Crowley has also long overstayed his welcome. His thing with Lucifer right now is ridiculous.
Crowley has also long overstayed his welcome. His thing with Lucifer right now is ridiculous.
BoxManLocke
Member
John's story was complete at the end of season 2, and his influence on Sam and Dean was discussed in many many episodes (although they focused way too much on the negative IMO). We've had a whole character arc for Dean that was directly related to John's deal to bring him back.
Mary's story on the other hand felt completely fresh and it made sense to bring her back. It's a shame they stopped expanding on that after she joined the British.
But really killing her would be such a waste. It's the only thing they have created in season 12 that has potential now that Mick is dead.
The solution for Mary is the same as Castiel's. Get her out of that shitty B-plot and have her work her issues with Sam and Dean.
Supernatural's idea of an ensemble show is terrible. Each character is stuck inside a different plot, and separated from the others for way too long. Crowley and Lucifer is the perfect example. They get reunited when it's time for the main plot to move along and by then it's just too late to give a crap.
Are we... watching the same show?
Sam and Dean haven't been arguing for like two seasons now.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
This season been good? I took a rest after the great season 11.
It's not topping last season...at least not yet. It's had a few solid episodes, but the overall plot is so-so.
It'll be hard for them to top last season---the seeds are there to have a fantastic showcase, but the build up is rough. Plus, they finally introduced a fun new character and tossed it out the window.
BoxManLocke
Member
Pretty cool *almost* standalone episode. Lots of season 1 vibes and a couple of very nice scenes like Sam and Dean carving their names on the bunker table.
I just didn't like those men of letters scenes. Unnecessary.
On a side note, it's been almost two hours since the episode aired and it's still not available for download. Weird.
I just didn't like those men of letters scenes. Unnecessary.
On a side note, it's been almost two hours since the episode aired and it's still not available for download. Weird.
I'm watching the show for the first time (about halfway through S2), and caught a little of this to see what the show was like now. Man, it hasn't changed much lol.
BoxManLocke
Member
Oh no, it has, belive me. It has evolved and changed many times over, for better or worse.
But we still get this kind of throwback episode every once in a while. Most of the time, they're very good, because the recipe to Supernatural's success in the first season was a very simple one.
It's awesome to still come across new watchers for such an old show. How are you liking it so far ?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
BoxManLocke
Member
Wait 'til he gets to season 8 and sees Chewbacca Sam in all his glory.
Some episodes are definitely better than others. I really like the mother/daughter owners of the bar (forgetting their names).
Moose looks glorious in that season.
Just saw this on YouTube, cant believe Ive never seen this before.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CnAwd0V9aoo
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CnAwd0V9aoo
PhoncipleBone
Banned
An oldie but a goodie. But they actually put it at the end of the episode on DVD. Not sure on streaming.
DarkHeartedKill
Member
New video by them lol
https://vimeo.com/212476351
https://vimeo.com/212476351
BKatastrophe
Member
Dabb's playing clean-up. This show was never an ensemble show. It was always Sam and Dean and then other characters weaving in and out, with Bobby being the closest to a third and that was really only S4-6. Outside of that, he did the same thing as the rest. This season is trying, and after the last episode, it's really shown that a big theme is leaving a legacy. Look at all the hunters the Winchesters have interacted with. The people they've tried to save. The effect they've left on the MoL. Not just their legacy either. Mary's seeing her children; Lucifer's having a child and we get to see the Princes of Hell, who were the closest thing that Lucifer had to children before this.
It's a shaky and a bit unfocused, but I like it after the heavily plot focused (and intensively inconsistent) run that Carver had. It's relaxing, but still compelling. It builds on the mythos without trying to rewrite or retcon everything. Dabb may not be leaving a notable footprint with his contributions, but he's doing a good job with what others have left.
One of my favorite seasons, easily.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Holy Fuck I'm literally in tears after watching that, my stomach hurts from laughing so hard, LOL!!!
BoxManLocke
Member
I'm going to wait to see what happens with Lucifer's baby before saying that season was light or relaxing. They've been stalling so much with this, but we're getting close to the end and if that thing is born we're going to be right back to something that's much more similar to Carver's stories in season 13.
I still think that storyline was completely unnecessary as it took time away from the BMOL, Mary and Castiel. That's why things are feeling unfocused. Too many plotlines.
Disagree with you that Dabb might not leave a mark as big as others. He's got a better writing team, the quality of standalones has risen pretty dramatically from Carver's era, there's less reliance on melodrama and there was a clear attempt to bring back the show's core theme of family.
If he can iron out the issues for season 13 and avoid some of the self-sabotage, it might be one of the best.
cartoon_soldier
Member
It seemed more like it always bothered him but he believed that way was the only way to work. When he met Sam/Dean he realized there is another way to "save the world".
i dont think anyones challenged his worldview before. that and realizing that he was wholly unprepared for the supernatural world probably helped. he was just meat for the grinder like the blonde dude that was top of his class
I'm in tears.
It's so obvious that the #SPNFamily thing is legit. The cast and crew are so close and I love it.
Whats your theory?
That the character is killed by the British Men of Letters.
The person who plays that character has repeatedly assured the fanbase they will refuse to appear in any episode where that is written in the script.
Have hope.
BoxManLocke
Member
That was incredibly boring.
Also Castiel being brainwashed for the tenth time sure adds something new.
Also Castiel being brainwashed for the tenth time sure adds something new.
DarkHeartedKill
Member
It was a little slow I agree. However, Cas being brainwashed makes perfect sense this time. This baby is supposed to be the Anti-Christ, who biblically speaking will perform many miracles and lead many astray only weird thing is the Anti-Christ is never mentioned to be Lucifers son...but that's okay.
We saw the supposed "miracles" of Kelly being resurrected from the dead, Castiel stopping Dagon's Angel killing attack, Castiel gaining healing abilities(and in turn healing himself...or did nehpilim baby do that?) and Castiel foreseeing the future. What kind of annoyed me is Dagon used that ability on all the Angels instead of just punching em, except for Castiel and that other Angel(But that was so she could get information from him). But both times she meets Castiel no insta-Angel death attack. Very out of character for her...
Now question is, is that Joshua THE Joshua(man that speaks to god) or did they just name an Angel the same name? Further on the topic aren't Angels supposed to end in el? They started with that, but kinda stopped in later seasons like with Hannah and such. Just wondering.
Something I'm not quite clear on...is David Haydn actually still in character while Jensen and Jared are doing their chupacabra bit?
Walker_Boh
Member
Is it safe to assume that the baby is the cosmic consequence that Billie warned the boys about if they broke their oath to her?
I think they spliced the show's footage of him with the guys messing around.
I think they spliced the show's footage of him with the guys messing around.
Great episode. They're taking the baby story in an interesting direction that I didn't expect.
I'm not sure why some of you think Cas is brainwashed. He's not. He saw a vision that he fully believes and it's filled him with hope. It's actually nice to see.
So the question is this: are they actually planning to have Lucifer's child be a pure force for good? Because that would be a damn cool twist.
But obviously the other option is that the baby is "lying" through the visions. But if that's the case, I do have a theory:
I'm not sure why some of you think Cas is brainwashed. He's not. He saw a vision that he fully believes and it's filled him with hope. It's actually nice to see.
So the question is this: are they actually planning to have Lucifer's child be a pure force for good? Because that would be a damn cool twist.
But obviously the other option is that the baby is "lying" through the visions. But if that's the case, I do have a theory:
I find it strange that when the baby is "communicating" through Cas and Kelly, they not only give them yellow eyes but they even use the sound effect from the fire effect in seasons 1 and 2. What if, somehow, Lucifer's child is actually Azazel being reborn?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
My prediction is Lucibabbeh is 'good' but the Men of Letter don't care and attempt to kill it anyway. This makes the adolescent Nephilim mad and it decides all humans must perish. The Winchesters and Co. however manage to successfully extract the being's grace after it finishes off the MoL and it just becomes a normal child to live happily ever after.
TheVampire
Banned
Why the fuck did the writers destroy The Colt
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