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[Izuna]

*sigh* it's sad that such a fuss was made about this whole "issue", that someone had to do some proper journalism.


http://www.zdnet.com/surface-pro-ve...eing-dishonest-with-storage-space-7000011009/

Just read through that entire article. Should help extinguish those ignorant flames at my University.

Short story: I use my Surface RT for taking notes as opposed to the popular iPad (and mini) and the eyes of jealousy and hostility begetting regret have turned the rest of the lectur"ees" into Microsoft bashing twits.

My lecturer (read: self-proclaimed Apple fan boy) made so many preconceptions about the RT (including it not running a "real and full" version of Office) that I understand why people naturally choose iPads and iPhones without proper research. Apple have brainwashed everyone into thinking they're expensive hardware is always better and Windows is the cheap alternative.



I'm not saying the iPhone sucks. I use my other half's 4S frequently.

 

[Damon Bennet]

anyone know if the type/touch-covers are region locked or something? im pretty sure that I'll import surface pro from the states but i need qwertz to type fast enough

 

[dLMN8R]

No matter how frustrating it is that the press will spread the storage space story like wildfire, but then Ed Bott's analysis will be ignored, the responsibility for that story rests entirely on Microsoft's shoulders. Whoever that source was that provided those numbers initially - inaccurate numbers, and numbers without context - should be fucking fired.

 

[Totakeke]

anyone know if the type/touch-covers are region locked or something? im pretty sure that I'll import surface pro from the states but i need qwertz to type fast enough

I'm guessing if they did region lock it, someone would already make an article bashing Microsoft about it.

 

[zorbsie]

Got a call from the Microsoft store to confirm my preorder. Asked if they had the units already and if he could sell it too me. I was denied. lol. They told me the store would be opening at 8am on Saturday. Can't wait, I'll be there form 7:30.

 

[crisdecuba]

Played with it again today. As background, I'm currently without a laptop (aside from my locked down clunky work laptop that's 5 years old).

I first stopped by the apple store and played around with the iPad retina. Very nice and smooth, as I'd remembered. The one thing I noticed this time though is that I really wouldn't want to hold it for too long in one hand. An iPad mini on the other hand feels perfect for one handedness.

Then I went to the MS store and played around extensively with the surface pro. Here are my near final thoughts:

Touch cover - meh... I can see it as somewhat convenient, since its so thin, and I like that I can rest my fingers on home row without generating spurious inputs, but I just make too many typing errors for it to be viable.

Type Cover - really really like this. I'm amazed how thin they got it, and yet it feels great and tactile and responsive. The trackpad works, but isn't the greatest. I hate track pads in general though - even Apple's, which are the best of the bunch. Give me a mouse any day.

Surface Pro - while the iPad still feels to me overall like a huge iPhone, the Pro feels like a real, capable, do whatever youd like with it computer, in a tablet form factor. I definitely don't want to operate this one handed, but I wouldn't want to do that with the iPad either.

Kickstand - I can't open the darn thing very easily. My fingers can't seem to naturally find the groove. And I feel like I'm going to drop the thing.

All in all, I think I'm getting this on Saturday.

 

[Totakeke]

.

Touch cover definitely takes longer time to get used to, but I think people should generally opt for type cover on the Pro.

The kickstand is only meant to open be opened from just one side where there's an opening if you're not aware.

 

[giga]

*sigh* it's sad that such a fuss was made about this whole "issue", that someone had to do some proper journalism.


http://www.zdnet.com/surface-pro-ve...eing-dishonest-with-storage-space-7000011009/

Eh, there are some glaring errors in this piece. I expect better from Bott.

The parts about wear-leveling blacks and bad blocks are just part of how SSDs work. On a new SSD these numbers should be very small.

Very small relative to what? He says after wiping the recovery partition on the Surface, it has "considerably larger" free space (5GB) than the Air.

SSDs come out of the box usually with 0 or 7% over-provisioning. That's why Disk Utility on the Air shows a capacity of 121 billion bytes instead of 128 billion. Is 7GB very small?

On a MacBook Air 128, the EFI and Recovery partitions and other system items add up to 7.53 GB. On the Surface Pro 128, the EFI and Recovery partitions add up to 8.61 GB. Pretty close.

On a Macbook Air, the EFI partition is 200MB and the Recovery partition is 650MB. There are no other "system items."

But one big difference is that the Windows 8 Recovery partition can be transferred to a USB flash drive and the disk space can be reclaimed.

One can also delete the OS X recovery partition and transfer it a USB drive.

In both cases, you can remove installed software to further free up disk space. The MacBook Air includes iLife ‘11, while the Surface Pro has 18 included apps, some or all of which can be removed.

If you go through those steps (it’s a simple process, really), you end up with 104.7 billion bytes of storage available for user data and new apps. At least that’s how a Mac user would describe it. A Windows user will see 97.5 GB in File Explorer and in Disk Management, but that’s just a difference in terminology.

[…]

It’s worth noting, by the way, that that number is considerably larger than the free space available on a MacBook Air.

It's worth noting that the 18 preinstalled apps are unlikely to be as large as the gargantuan iLife suite.

 

[Steelyuhas]

It's worth noting that the 18 preinstalled apps are unlikely to be as large as the gargantuan iLife suite.

I just added them up (only found 17, not sure which one I missed), and they were a little over 2GB.

No idea how that compares to Apple's suite.

 

[JaggedSac]

Eh, there are some glaring errors in this piece. I expect better from Bott.

So what are the final numbers for both?

 

[lastflowers]

The Surface Pro is more of a laptop than a tablet, in literally every single way except for the fact that the keyboard detaches and it has a touch screen.

-It has the CPU of a laptop
-It has ram of a laptop
-It has the OS and compatibility of a laptop
-It has the openness of a laptop, to the point where installing Linux on it is 100% supported
-It has the price of a laptop
-It has the battery life of a laptop

don't listen to Brot. He's a webOS and BlackBerry fanatic.

 

[coldfoot]

The Surface Pro is more of a laptop than a tablet, in literally every single way except for the fact that the keyboard detaches and it has a touch screen.

-It has the CPU of a laptop
-It has ram of a laptop
-It has the OS and compatibility of a laptop
-It has the openness of a laptop, to the point where installing Linux on it is 100% supported
-It has the price of a laptop
-It has the battery life of a laptop

True but it has many failings as a laptop:
- It has the storage space of a tablet.
- It has the non upgradable memory of a tablet, even the Macbook Air is upgradable to 8GB at time of purchase.
- It has the port limitations of a tablet, even the Macbook Air has more ports.
- It has a crappy add-on keyboard/touchpad like a tablet
- It has the awkward ergonomics of a tablet/keyboard combo when using in your lap

I'd be very open to the idea of a MS designed high quality ultrabook, but not this niche product. I don't think it'll appeal to many people outside of digitizer pen enthusiast niche.

 

[Bubble Metropolis]

True but it has many failings as a laptop:
- It has the storage space of a tablet.

Doesn't the Macbook Air also ship with 128gb, aside from the premier SKU? (Fake edit: Just checked and the lowest model actually also ships with 64gb of SSD space.)

The most recent and most championed laptop offerings from Asus and Lenovo come with a base 128gb SSD too. You can upgrade the Asus model, but it's a few hundred more, I believe. It's not indicative of being a tablet anymore, it's just the way things are with the market transitioning from HDDs and betting on cloud space. At least the Surface Pro comes with that SDHC slot.

 

[eastmen]

True but it has many failings as a laptop:
- It has the storage space of a tablet.
- It has the non upgradable memory of a tablet, even the Macbook Air is upgradable to 8GB at time of purchase.
- It has the port limitations of a tablet, even the Macbook Air has more ports.
- It has a crappy add-on keyboard/touchpad like a tablet
- It has the awkward ergonomics of a tablet/keyboard combo when using in your lap

I'd be very open to the idea of a MS designed high quality ultrabook, but not this niche product. I don't think it'll appeal to many people outside of digitizer pen enthusiast niche.

The mac air comes in 64 / 128 flavors only.

The mac air only has a mini displayport output

The mac air has 2 usb 3 ports but no sd slot at all.

The mac air has no touch screen

The mac air has no stylus support

The mac air has awkward ergonomics of a laptop while trying to use it laying down or walking.

The mac air has a low res display.


We can do this all day.

 

[coldfoot]

Doesn't the Macbook Air also ship with 128gb, aside from the premier SKU? (Fake edit: Just checked and the lowest model actually also ships with 64gb of SSD space.)

The most recent and most championed laptop offerings from Asus and Lenovo come with a base 128gb SSD too. You can upgrade the Asus model, but it's a few hundred more, I believe. It's not indicative of being a tablet anymore, it's just the way things are with the market transitioning from HDDs and betting on cloud space. At least the Surface Pro comes with that SDHC slot.

You can upgrade the Macbook Air to 8/256, which is what I got, but with the Surface you're stuck at 4/128 as max.

 

[eastmen]

You can upgrade the Macbook Air to 8/256, which is what I got, but with the Surface you're stuck at 4/128 as max.

Yes and it comes out to 1,500 for it. That's $600 more than the 128 gig surface.

But you can never add a touch screen or Wacom stylus .

 

[coldfoot]

The mac air comes in 64 / 128 flavors only.

WRONG, you can go up to 256 on either version.

The mac air only has a mini displayport output

So does the Surface Pro, what's your point?

The mac air has 2 usb 3 ports but no sd slot at all.

An extra USB port when you only have one is far more useful than a sd slot, and the 13" Air has a SD slot.

The mac air has no touch screen
The mac air has no stylus support

Obviously, as it's not a tablet, which can only sell in today's market as a low cost, lightweight entertainment device. You just don't combine some things, ever heard of a submarine/aeroplane hybrid?

The mac air has awkward ergonomics of a laptop while trying to use it laying down or walking.

You use a tablet while walking? The Surface Pro is a 2lb brick of a tablet compared to the much lighter and thinner competition that's far more comfortable to use as an actual tablet.

The mac air has a low res display.

You can find plenty of ultrabooks with a high res display. The MBA isn't the only laptop there is.

 

[Bubble Metropolis]

You can upgrade the Macbook Air to 8/256, which is what I got, but with the Surface you're stuck at 4/128 as max.

Ah, okay. I went to try the Macbook Air customization thing on the Apple site before posting that but didn't see the option to upgrade SSD.



Anyway, I went to Best Buy today, and while they had a slot where the Surface Pro was very obviously supposed to be, I didn't get to see one.

I did however spend about twenty minutes with the Zenbook Prime (UX31A) while there and it's a really, really nice machine; now I'm conflicted. I hope I can get my hands on a Pro to test it soon, or I might just jump on the UX31A. The Surface Pro's superior portability, (reportedly) superior screen, and pen input are hard to just abandon without at least giving it an honest examination.

 

[coldfoot]

Yes and it comes out to 1,500 for it. That's $600 more than the 128 gig surface.

But you can never add a touch screen or Wacom stylus .

First, it's $471 more, not $600 more as you can't ignore the cost of keyboard with the surface pro, and second, price is irrelevant to this discussion as we know Apple products are expensive. You can get less expensive ultrabooks from other manufacturers, some even with touchscreens.

Second, you can never add a decent keyboard or touchpad to the Surface pro due to its form factor.

 

[coldfoot]

I did however spend about twenty minutes with the Zenbook Prime (UX31A) while there and it's a really, really nice machine; now I'm conflicted. I hope I can get my hands on a Pro to test it soon, or I might just jump on the UX31A. The Surface Pro's superior portability, (reportedly) superior screen, and pen input are hard to just abandon without at least giving it an honest examination.

The UX31A is really nice. About the only weaknesses I find on it is max 4GB RAM like the Surface Pro, and HDMI output instead of mini-Displayport, which means you can't drive external monitors higher than 1920x1200 with it.

 

[btrboyev]

First, it's $471 more, not $600 more as you can't ignore the cost of keyboard with the surface pro, and second, price is irrelevant to this discussion as we know Apple products are expensive. You can get less expensive ultrabooks from other manufacturers, some even with touchscreens.

Second, you can never add a decent keyboard or touchpad to the Surface pro due to its form factor.

Why couldn't you? You can use any Bluetooth keyboard, and there isn't any reason why ms could come up with a newer keyboard. MS also has a mouse designed for it

 

[Feep]

Oh my godddd life is so haaaaaaard

 

[coldfoot]

Oh my godddd life is so haaaaaaard

Plug in a external 2.5" HDD to one of those USB ports and the other 3 will become useless due to not enough power.

 

[f0lken]

Second, you can never add a decent keyboard or touchpad to the Surface pro due to its form factor.

It isn't compatible with the multitude of keyboards available in all kind of prices since forever?

 

[Feep]

Plug in a external 2.5" HDD to one of those USB ports and the other 3 will become useless due to not enough power.

A rare event for me, considering 90 GB + 64 GB SDXC + Cloud. Good enough for a mouse, phone charger, printer, whatever.

 

[BrownChickenBrownCow]

True but it has many failings as a laptop:
- It has the storage space of a tablet.
- It has the non upgradable memory of a tablet, even the Macbook Air is upgradable to 8GB at time of purchase.
- It has the port limitations of a tablet, even the Macbook Air has more ports.
- It has a crappy add-on keyboard/touchpad like a tablet
- It has the awkward ergonomics of a tablet/keyboard combo when using in your lap

I'd be very open to the idea of a MS designed high quality ultrabook, but not this niche product. I don't think it'll appeal to many people outside of digitizer pen enthusiast niche.

A few things, a stylus is far from a niche at this point. It comes standard on one of the best selling phones in the business (note 2), and people buy the crappy ones for iPads for note taking all over college campuses nationwide.


I don't care to really enter the dickwaving contest between a MacBook Air and the Surface bro, but everything you mentioned is remedied by a simple add on/wireless solution.


The type cover is ultra effective for typing as you most likely will buy a cover for that product, and considering the smart cover for an iPad is over 40 bucks. (I personally don't care much for the touch cover) and there are millions of compact mice on the market for use like the Touch Arc which IIRC uses Bluetooth or has a variation that is Bluetooth (as are real keyboards)

I can agree with the lap thing, I personally don't have an issue, but if you have larger legs then yes.

Remind me why more than one USB port is important for a person with a laptop? Do you plan on connecting USB memory stick you can never remove? Or will you have it attached to a printer 24/7?


That said, both machines are ultra capable, one is just new and different, the other is just an established norm.

I say this as an RT user with a touch screen desktop at home both on Windows 8.

So beyond the lap thing, there are very little failings for it as a laptop, and you can always pop the kickstand and rest your hand in the wedge for some quick use. Quick use like you would if you using your laptop in your lap.


PS: You have to remember this isn't Windows of old, the use of ram on 8 is very efficient and much improved over 7.

 

[coldfoot]

It isn't compatible with the multitude of keyboards available in all kind of prices since forever?

I should have added "While maintaining a lap friendly form factor and without taking away from the portability of the device"
There isn't enough room in a 10.6" device to have a comfortable keyboard, as you can see by the lack of 10.6" laptops with good keyboards.

 

[eastmen]

WRONG, you can go up to 256 on either version.

oh i'm sorry , didn't know anyone would waste that much money on such a low res netbook

So does the Surface Pro, what's your point?

your the one claiming the surface has less ports

An extra USB port when you only have one is far more useful than a sd slot, and the 13" Air has a SD slot.

I can add a cheap wire that will give me five usb ports. The sd slot is for more useful while on the go.

Obviously, as it's not a tablet, which can only sell in today's market as a low cost, lightweight entertainment device. You just don't combine some things, ever heard of a submarine/aeroplane hybrid?

Yes I've heard of them .
Apple can't sell a tablet / pc because they can't make a tablet / pc os. So they are stuck with netbooks .

You use a tablet while walking? The Surface Pro is a 2lb brick of a tablet compared to the much lighter and thinner competition that's far more comfortable to use as an actual tablet.

The surface is half a pound more than an ipad. Anything I can do with an ipad I can do with the surface and more. I will be using the surface to sketch out rooms for wiring or even full buildings . I will take pictures of wiring racks and be able to label the photo while on the go. I can't do that with an ipad easily or with a mac air.

At the same time I see many reading books on the ipad but it weighs almost 3 times as much as a nook simple touch and I don't see people complaining. I'm not a 2 year old girl , I can handle half a lb extra of weight

You can find plenty of ultrabooks with a high res display. The MBA isn't the only laptop there is.

I can , but I want a hybrid tablet. It suits my needs better than an ultra book.

First, it's $471 more, not $600 more as you can't ignore the cost of keyboard with the surface pro, and second, price is irrelevant to this discussion as we know Apple products are expensive. You can get less expensive ultrabooks from other manufacturers, some even with touchscreens.

So if we have to add the keyboard cost (why can't I just use a $5 usb keyboard ) how do we adjust the cost of the missing touch screen and Wacom stylus ? Anyway you cut it , to get the same features of the surface in an apple combo you'd have to spend a lot of money and use up a lot more room. Which is the point of why I want a surface , to reduce the amount of stuff I carry on the go.

Second, you can never add a decent keyboard or touchpad to the Surface pro due to its form factor.

Sure you can. The type keyboard is awesome and I can add a real usb keyboard that is far better than mac air's keyboard or any ultra books. I can also add a real mouse to the system.


Look you don't like the surface I get that. But the surface offers what many other products don't and there will be more surface pro like products and I'm sorry but apple just isn't offering them. I'm sure in a few years apple will and apple will try and claim credit but for now just face the facts.

 

[coldfoot]

A few things, a stylus is far from a niche at this point. It comes standard on one of the best selling phones in the business (note 2)

1. Note 2 is far from being a best selling phone when the iPhone and Galaxy S3 and other Android phones outsell it vastly.
2. How many people buy the Note 2 for its stylus vs just because it has a large screen? If you can prove that people are buying it for the stylus and not because of this trend of ever increasing screen sizes of phones, I'll happily concede the point.

and people buy the crappy ones for iPads for note taking all over college campuses nationwide.

Do you have the sales figures for iPad styluses vs the amount of iPads sold vs. iPad keyboards and bluetooth keyboards sold? I bet the keyboards outsell the styluses at least 10:1. Stylus is niche as you can see by touchscreen phone adoption before and after the iPhone.

 

[dLMN8R]

The Surface Pro not being the perfect laptop in every single way does not discount the fact that it's a far better laptop than many other laptops in many ways, and it's also far more of a laptop than it is a tablet, and should therefore be primarily compared to other laptops.


Also, the Type Cover is every bit as comfortable to type on as any other laptop keyboard I've ever used, even on my lap. Though I haven't tried the Pro, so it being heavier might change how usable it is on your lap compared to the RT. Why are you comparing it to keyboards sold for the iPad? The iPad is much smaller in its longest dimension, so obviously keyboards for it won't be able to be as comfortable to type on.

 

[coldfoot]

oh i'm sorry , didn't know anyone would waste that much money on such a low res netbook

This is enough to ignore you forever as you're not really interested in anything other than trolling. Goodbye and enjoy being one of the few people that will ever be buying a Surface Pro.

 

[eastmen]

A rare event for me, considering 90 GB + 64 GB SDXC + Cloud. Good enough for a mouse, phone charger, printer, whatever.

consider also 64 gig flash drives are under $40 for usb 2.0 and under $60 for usb 3.0

THe majority of what i'd need an external hardrive is reduced by a few usb sticks .

 

[coldfoot]

Also, the Type Cover is every bit as comfortable to type on as any other laptop keyboard I've ever used, even on my lap

You must have used pretty crappy laptops until now then. Go use an Macbook Pro/Air or a proper Thinkpad before you make judgement on a keyboard with zero tactile feedback.

For the rest of your post, I am in agreement that iPad keyboards aren't that great either. My real argument is that Tablets are not meant to be used with keyboards and they are not the type of devices to write novels on. The future of tablet is smaller and lighter like the iPad mini, and as an entertainment and web consumption device with some non-traditional productivity tasks.

Submarines were never meant to fly and tablets were never meant to replace laptops for productivity. Just because you can build a submarine that can fly doesn't mean that it'll be very good at either task.

 

[dLMN8R]

You must have used pretty crappy laptops until now then. Go use an Macbook Pro/Air or a proper Thinkpad before you make judgement on a keyboard with zero tactile feedback.

For the rest of your post, I am in agreement that iPad keyboards aren't that great either. My real argument is that Tablets are not meant to be used with keyboards and they are not the type of devices to write novels on. The future of tablet is smaller and lighter like the iPad mini, and as an entertainment and web consumption device.

Submarines were never meant to fly and tablets were never meant to replace laptops for productivity. Just because you can build a submarine that can fly doesn't mean that it'll be very good at either task.

I've had a Lenovo x220 for more than 2 years, and before that I had a Thinkpad t61 for 4 years.

I'm not sure you used the Type Cover if you think it has "zero tactile feedback".

 

[coldfoot]

I've had a Lenovo x220 for more than 2 years, and before that I had a Thinkpad t61 for 4 years.

I'm not sure you used the Type Cover if you think it has "zero tactile feedback".

The keys don't move = zero tactile feedback. And most reviews, even Microsoft themselves put it on a lower standard than a traditional laptop keyboard.
Also one thing I forgot, non-backlit keyboard in a $999 laptop is inexcusable in 2013.

 

[eastmen]

I've had a Lenovo x220 for more than 2 years, and before that I had a Thinkpad t61 for 4 years.

I'm not sure you used the Type Cover if you think it has "zero tactile feedback".

you don't understand man... they weren't macs .... nothing compares to a mac. Come on son you know better than that !

 

[BrownChickenBrownCow]

1. Note 2 is far from being a best selling phone when the iPhone and Galaxy S3 and other Android phones outsell it vastly.
2. How many people buy the Note 2 for its stylus vs just because it has a large screen? If you can prove that people are buying it for the stylus and not because of this trend of ever increasing screen sizes of phones, I'll happily concede the point.


Do you have the sales figures for iPad styluses vs the amount of iPads sold vs. iPad keyboards and bluetooth keyboards sold? I bet the keyboards outsell the styluses at least 10:1. Stylus is niche as you can see by touchscreen phone adoption before and after the iPhone.

No I don't but you don't either, and 10:1 doesn't put a product in the "niche" category. If that is the case then the MacBook Air is a niche product.

 

[BrownChickenBrownCow]

The keys don't move = zero tactile feedback. And most reviews, even Microsoft themselves put it on a lower standard than a traditional laptop keyboard.
Also one thing I forgot, non-backlit keyboard in a $999 laptop is inexcusable in 2013.

the keys move.

 

[dLMN8R]

type cover vs. touch cover, dude.


I completely agree that the touch cover is pretty poor. I could never get used to it even after trying for months. But the type cover is fucking fantastic. And even though technically it's twice as thick as the touch cover, it's still so thin that I can't notice the difference at all, and it's roughly the same weight as the touch cover.

Honestly, I don't know why the touch cover even exists.

 

[eastmen]

I grabbed some toys while waiting for my pro

http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10246&cs_id=1024603&p_id=9474&seq=1&format=2

got one of these


http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009AYLDSU/?tag=neogaf0e-20

one of these for music and maovies with a second person.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10307&cs_id=1030702&p_id=9955&seq=1&format=2

one of these for travel when I want to plug some stuff into it or when i'm on my desk at home.

 

[Bubble Metropolis]

Speaking of Surface accessories, anyone with any experience using the Microsoft Wedge mouse?

I always see it paired with the Surfaces at stores, so I assume it's being marketed as a sort of companion product. It looks pretty slick and I'm thinking of picking it up as my portable, if it's good.

 

[coldfoot]

type cover vs. touch cover, dude.


I completely agree that the touch cover is pretty poor. I could never get used to it even after trying for months. But the type cover is fucking fantastic. And even though technically it's twice as thick as the touch cover, it's still so thin that I can't notice the difference at all, and it's roughly the same weight as the touch cover.

Honestly, I don't know why the touch cover even exists.

I'm sorry, I misread it as touch cover. However for most people a 10.6" keyboard, no matter how good, is just a bit on the small side. And just look at that joke of a trackpad and the non-backlit keys and you'll see it's definitely worse than what you'd get on a Macbook Air or an Asus Ultrabook. That's why the Surface Pro is a worse laptop than those two alternatives on ergonomics alone and I haven't even mentioned the top heaviness of using it on your lap.

 

[Totakeke]

type cover vs. touch cover, dude.


I completely agree that the touch cover is pretty poor. I could never get used to it even after trying for months. But the type cover is fucking fantastic. And even though technically it's twice as thick as the touch cover, it's still so thin that I can't notice the difference at all, and it's roughly the same weight as the touch cover.

Honestly, I don't know why the touch cover even exists.

Easier to hold, slightly more portable, still far better than typing on glass. Plus you'd just get another bunch of trolls if they only introduced the type cover.

I'm sorry, I misread it as touch cover. However for most people a 10.6" keyboard, no matter how good, is just a bit on the small side. And just look at that joke of a trackpad and the non-backlit keys and you'll see it's definitely worse than what you'd get on a Macbook Air or an Asus Ultrabook. That's why the Surface Pro is a worse laptop than those two alternatives on ergonomics alone and I haven't even mentioned the top heaviness of using it on your lap.

The only person you're going to convince with your baseless, out-of-thin-air arguments is yourself.

 

[BrownChickenBrownCow]

I'm sorry, I misread it as touch cover. However for most people a 10.6" keyboard, no matter how good, is just a bit on the small side. And just look at that joke of a trackpad and the non-backlit keys and you'll see it's definitely worse than what you'd get on a Macbook Air or an Asus Ultrabook. That's why the Surface Pro is a worse laptop than those two alternatives on ergonomics alone and I haven't even mentioned the top heaviness of using it on your lap.

Using a laptop on your lap can cause scrotal hyperthermia as well as toasted skin syndrome, so I'm not sure why people would do that over long periods of time. Keep your sperm safe friend.

Don't use laptops on your lap.


This has been a public service announcement.

 

[dLMN8R]

I'm sorry, I misread it as touch cover. However for most people a 10.6" keyboard, no matter how good, is just a bit on the small side. And just look at that joke of a trackpad and the non-backlit keys and you'll see it's definitely worse than what you'd get on a Macbook Air or an Asus Ultrabook. That's why the Surface Pro is a worse laptop than those two alternatives on ergonomics alone and I haven't even mentioned the top heaviness of using it on your lap.

I'm not sure how you can make any judgment about what "most people" will think about the keyboard, but I have average-sized hands and there's absolutely nothing cramped about it at all. You should really give it a shot, it sounds like you've never seen it or used it. If there's one thing that every review of both the Surface RT and Surface Pro talk about, it's that the type cover is incredible.

Sure, the trackpad is tiny, but even if it was better or bigger I'd barely ever use it anyway. The thing has touch, and that's what I use most of the time even to tap things on the desktop. When I do need some more precision, it works well for its size. I turned down the sensitivity which helps improve the precision.

The lack of a backlight stinks, but I also don't have one on either of my Lenovo laptops, so it's not really a make-or-break dealio for me.

The top-heaviness is a non-issue on the RT. I already said above that I haven't used the Pro, so because it's heavier it might be a bit worse, but I don't know. Saying "I haven't even mentioned..." about something you personally haven't even tried - and it appears like you haven't tried the RT + type cover either - seems a bit of an empty statement to me.

 

[coldfoot]

The only person you're going to convince with your baseless, out-of-thin-air arguments is yourself.

I'll settle for the market being in agreement with my arguments, thank you.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

I like the Touch Cover

Personally, I think it's brilliant. Seems very Apple-y, and I'd buy one in the second for my iPad.

That said, the price is Bruce Wayne is Superman insane.

 

[dLMN8R]

I'll settle for the market being in agreement with my arguments, thank you.

The market is rarely a competent indicator of quality.

And in this case, for all the complaints that reviewers have of both Surface devices, your opinion on keyboards seems to disagree with almost all of them.

 

[Returners]

Psyched to pick this up Saturday. MS Canada is also price matching US so it's the same price across for the keyboard covers too.

 

[railGUN]

If I had to label the Surface Pro between laptop or tablet, I'd say its a tablet. It doesn't even include a keyboard by default when you buy it.

Of course it's actually a hybrid, but it's more tablet than laptop, IMO.