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[coldfoot]

I'm not sure how you can make any judgment about what "most people" will think about the keyboard, but I have average-sized hands and there's absolutely nothing cramped about it at all. You should really give it a shot, it sounds like you've never seen it or used it. If there's one thing that every review of both the Surface RT and Surface Pro talk about, it's that the type cover is incredible.

Well I can't even be comfortable on a 11.6" Air, so I doubt the surface keyboard would be any better. Looking at how the 13" is the most popular notebook form factor after 15", I'd wager many people think the same.

Sure, the trackpad is tiny, but even if it was better or bigger I'd barely ever use it anyway. The thing has touch, and that's what I use most of the time even to tap things on the desktop. When I do need some more precision, it works well for its size. I turned down the sensitivity which helps improve the precision.

Why include it in the first place when there's always the argument of "there's a touchscreen anyway?" If you trust the touchscreen so much, don't have a half-assed effort for a trackpad, either do it right or don't include it at all.

Besides, lifting your fingers from the keyboard to touch the screen is ergonomically a lot worse and is more distance than using the touchpad.

The lack of a backlight stinks, but I also don't have one on either of my Lenovo laptops, so it's not really a make-or-break dealio for me.

Cool, it is a definite dealbreaker for me. But then again my (and the current market's) view of tablets is geared towards entertainment, not productivity anyway.

 

[coldfoot]

The market is rarely a competent indicator of quality.

It's the best indicator of what people want. Make a new product that people want like the iPhone, and people will flock to them.

And in this case, for all the complaints that reviewers have of both Surface devices, your opinion on keyboards seems to disagree with almost all of them.

Maybe they're young kids who grew up with smartphones and such. I can't be comfortable in any laptop keyboard that's smaller than 13".

 

[Totakeke]

We already predicted your kind of "compare against iPad and compare against expensive laptops and list all the disadvantages and none of the advantages" shtick. If you think you're making a compelling argument, you're not.

 

[coldfoot]

We already predicted your kind of "compare against iPad and compare against expensive laptops and list all the disadvantages and none of the advantages" shtick. If you think you're making a compelling argument, you're not.

An ultrabook + iPad mini is better than the surface Pro. It's the best productivity device + best entertainment device. The technology is not ready to blend them into a single device yet, and it may not be possible due to physical constraints until flexible, foldable screens and keyboards are invented. It'll also weigh less than all the clutter you'll be forced to buy to turn your surface pro into a proper laptop.

If you're not convinced, follow the market.

 

[f0lken]

Didn't the market bought on masse cheap, plastic, shitty netbooks?? So much for the market always being right

 

[Totakeke]

Follow the market has to be one of the stupidest argument ever thought up.

 

[Steelyuhas]

type cover vs. touch cover, dude.


I completely agree that the touch cover is pretty poor. I could never get used to it even after trying for months. But the type cover is fucking fantastic. And even though technically it's twice as thick as the touch cover, it's still so thin that I can't notice the difference at all, and it's roughly the same weight as the touch cover.

Honestly, I don't know why the touch cover even exists.

Looks sexy in the commercials.

Touch cover is cool, but I never found it to be up to functional snuff either, I made typing mistakes all the time with it. Type Cover is great though.

 

[eastmen]

Didn't the market bought on masse cheap, plastic, shitty netbooks?? So much for the market always being right

and they have now replaced them with cheap shitty ipads / android tablets. But that's fine , sometimes people just want a portable dvd player / web browser. Some people need more.

Remember the craze of buying 6lbs + laptops with huge screens that lasted an hour or two on battery just to plunk them down on a desk never to move them ? instead of buying cheaper more powerful desktops ?


This is the same thing. People will buy ipads in mass until something more portable comes about. I don't know what that might be but it will come just as its allways come in the past.

 

[Colonel Nasty]

Follow the market has to be one of the stupidest argument ever thought up.

Justin Beiber is an amazing artist #followthemarket

 

[f0lken]

McDonalds the most amazing food ever #followthemarket

 

[AlteredBeast]

I need something I can write in bed with... Hopefully the Pro fits the bill.

 

[BrownChickenBrownCow]

An ultrabook + iPad mini is better than the surface Pro. It's the best productivity device + best entertainment device. The technology is not ready to blend them into a single device yet, and it may not be possible due to physical constraints until flexible, foldable screens and keyboards are invented. It'll also weigh less than all the clutter you'll be forced to buy to turn your surface pro into a proper laptop.

If you're not convinced, follow the market.

Why are you in this thread anyways? Post history says that you dislike the idea of Windows 8 and touchscreens for productivity, yet you are in a topic dedicated to a device from Microsoft which happens to have productivity software, and marketed as an on the go do it all alternative.

Follow the market is the argument Microsoft used when the iPhone just came out, and now the market is totally different. Different market now. Following the market just guarantees you are going to be mediocre and irrelevant soon.

Crap argument, crap discussion.

Macbooks only sold 22 million of the 170+ million laptops sold worldwide sold. No one buys them. #niche #followthemarket #12%

 

[Windu]

Didn't the market bought on masse cheap, plastic, shitty netbooks?? So much for the market always being right

The market was right. Low priced computing devices are still the big sellers.

 

[f0lken]

The market was right. Low priced computing devices are still the big sellers.

Not as a metric for quality which is the reason those cheap and shitty devices are all but dead by now

 

[lastflowers]

Like I said earlier, don't feed the troll. It was clear months ago in a thread he was unwilling to budge a single inch on any front because what was in his mind was correct 100%.

Follow the Market ---> just build tablet.

Apple --> Followed the market with iPad.
Apple --> Followed the market with iPhone.
Apple --> Followed the market with iPod.



He changes his argument at will to twist your words against you even if it makes no sense. Many times there is a kernel of truth to what he is saying, and sometimes he is completely right. But most of the time he's just a troll that refuses to accept a different viewpoint whatsoever. He follows the crowd when it's needed, he follows the outside when it's not the norm.

Luckily the posts here haven't gotten completely ridiculous like that previous thread he was in.

 

[Troll]

On the Vergecast they destroy the Surface Pro. It's pretty entertaining, actually.

 

[Bit-Bit]

An ultrabook + iPad mini is better than the surface Pro. It's the best productivity device + best entertainment device. The technology is not ready to blend them into a single device yet, and it may not be possible due to physical constraints until flexible, foldable screens and keyboards are invented. It'll also weigh less than all the clutter you'll be forced to buy to turn your surface pro into a proper laptop.

If you're not convinced, follow the market.

lol, Just wait for Apple to invent it?

 

[DagsJT]

Skipped reading so many posts over the last few pages. Some people don't like the Pro. We get that. Not sure why those people are continuously posting their hate for it, and what they're trying to achieve.

Thread has kinda turned into a bitchfest.

 

[Izuna]

An ultrabook + iPad mini is better than the surface Pro. It's the best productivity device + best entertainment device. The technology is not ready to blend them into a single device yet, and it may not be possible due to physical constraints until flexible, foldable screens and keyboards are invented. It'll also weigh less than all the clutter you'll be forced to buy to turn your surface pro into a proper laptop.

If you're not convinced, follow the market.

Why would a flexible keyboard be what you want? I can't take the whole Mac keyboard argument seriously either. Personally the Touch keyboard is enough for me, and the Type keyboard is no different in usefulness as any other keyboard for keyboard, but hey don't ask someone who's actually given it a try.

Following the market means following the masses of people who buy things just because it's the popular thing to do in this case. The Surface Pro isn't even released yet, and your shooting it down for not having sold the most?

Edit: MBPro & iPad mini or Surface Pro & Desktop computer

 

[coldfoot]

lol, Just wait for Apple to invent it?

That would be true if Steve Jobs was alive. Now who knows who's going to be the next one to invent the big thing.

 

[coldfoot]

Didn't the market bought on masse cheap, plastic, shitty netbooks?? So much for the market always being right

Asus, who made the OG netbook did quite well. Follow the market to determine what's successful, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to innovate. Surface Pro is an attempt, but ends up with too much compromise. These compromises aren't software/hardware compromises like Apple devices have, but actual physical compromises on how people interact with devices plus it's not cheap like netbooks, hence why I don't think it'll be successful.

 

[dLMN8R]

I'm really confused why you seem to think you're credible enough to continue making authoritative objective statements when it seems pretty clear that you've never even touched either of the devices, and apparently weren't even aware of what the Type Cover was.

 

[coldfoot]

I'm really confused why you seem to think you're credible enough to continue making authoritative objective statements when it seems pretty clear that you've never even touched either of the devices, and apparently weren't even aware of what the Type Cover was.

I knew both of them, just thought you meant the touch cover and not the type cover. Never mind I'll leave you to your styluses.

For the record, I think Surface RT is a fine tablet only in need of a $100 price cut and some time for both the app store and the OS to mature. It's problem is that it's relatively unfinished due to having v1 of its OS while Android and iOS are in version 4-5 already. RT version 2-3 should be great. MS has the right idea with the RT, not so much with the Pro. I would not be surprised if the RT goes on to mature, gets smaller and lighter, and cheaper while the Surface Pro might not even get a second iteration and get discontinued. Legacy Windows on tablets will never be successful, but RT has a good chance to be successful.

 

[f0lken]

One thing tha MS should do is offer the Surface RT in 8" size, I think the tiers for the second generation should be these:

-8" Surface RT $300-350 Obviously with updated specs, maybe even keep the same resolution
-10.6" Surface $500-600 With a new Atom processor and Windows 8 and a res of 1600x900
-10.6" Surface Pro $900-1000 With haswell.

And every option should have pen input. That said I am still hyped and willing to buy in an instant the actual Pro, if only they sell it here SMH MS

 

[coldfoot]

If you have a touchscreen device with resizable windows and scrollbars, you've messed up.

 

[f0lken]

If you have a touchscreen device with resizable windows and scrollbars, you've messed up.

Scrollbars yes, they aren't needed in a touchscreen enviroment, but as the MS App Store matures that will be less of an issue (hopefully, but you never know), as for the resizable windows I think MS has the right idea with the snap thing, they just have to allow for 1 or 2 more fixed sizes for their apps, I love split screen on my Galaxy Note, and use regularly snapped apps on my desktop pc

 

[brotkasten]

eastman vs coldfoot has to be the greatest war ever.

Oh my godddd life is so haaaaaaard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hnOCUkbix0

 

[coldfoot]

Scrollbars yes, they aren't needed in a touchscreen enviroment, but as the MS App Store matures that will be less of an issue (hopefully, but you never know), as for the resizable windows I think MS has the right idea with the snap thing, they just have to allow for 1 or 2 more fixed sizes for their apps, I love split screen on my Galaxy Note, and use regularly snapped apps on my desktop pc

I meant resizeable windows in a traditional way with windows on top of one another that allows for free resizing in both directions. The snap system is a brilliant innovation on Metro and I do not put it in the same category as the former. However I think it's fine the way it is, with 80/20 and 50/50 splits allowed. Too many different configurations would mean much more work for developers, whom you'll want to attract to your new ecosystem.

What I meant was full blown windows 8 has no place in tablets, and MS better get to work on RT and Office so that it's IMPOSSIBLE to see anything resembling legacy windows, even when messing around with the control panel.

 

[Feep]

What I meant was full blown windows 8 has no place in tablets, and MS better get to work on RT and Office so that it's IMPOSSIBLE to see anything resembling legacy windows, even when messing around with the control panel.

I love when an environment capable of running over 90% of all my lifetime purchased software is closed off to me.

Dude, whatever. I'm excited about running Visual Studio, OmmWriter, and Steam on what's essentially a slightly overweight tablet. Hate all you want.

 

[usctrojan]

I'm pretty sure I'm jumping in on Saturday; I always said I'd skip the RT and get a pro. For some reason i hope they have some cool bonus for Saturday adopters liek they did for the first RT buyers who got a free year of Xbox music. Just finalized sale of my MBP and will jump completely into this! So excited!!!

 

[BrownChickenBrownCow]

I meant resizeable windows in a traditional way with windows on top of one another that allows for free resizing in both directions. The snap system is a brilliant innovation on Metro and I do not put it in the same category as the former. However I think it's fine the way it is, with 80/20 and 50/50 splits allowed. Too many different configurations would mean much more work for developers, whom you'll want to attract to your new ecosystem.

What I meant was full blown windows 8 has no place in tablets, and MS better get to work on RT and Office so that it's IMPOSSIBLE to see anything resembling legacy windows, even when messing around with the control panel.

I think you meant that you just enjoy talking out of your ass about things you have used for 30 seconds or things that you never plan on using. Snap was introduced in Windows 7 and it is only in the desktop environment in 50/50. Metro allows multitasking in the metro or desktop environment with the 80/20 snap.

Functionally there is not a single difference with how Windows operates in the normal desktop & metro between RT and 8 (beyond the ability for legacy apps). Control panel is available in both metro and power user, window resizing, folder navigation. It is all the same.

Here is a screenshot to demonstrate snap, both forms being used.

 

[coldfoot]

I thought there was 50/50 snap in metro, I could swear that I've seen it before. Anyway, I think it should be added. 80/20 and 50/50 are pretty much perfect for Metro. Windows 7 did not introduce the snap concept at all, it was there in individual programs for at least 10-15 years. I remember mIRC and chat windows snapping back when people cared about IRC.

The "desktop mode" on RT is only there because MS ran out of time to convert everything to Metro. It'll be phased out, or should be. Traditional Windows desktop as we know it does not belong on a tablet, and definitely not on a Metro UI. Once MS makes a great file manager and migrates all the settings to Metro, there will be no point to it besides Office, which will also move to Metro completely.

 

[derFeef]

Hey what's going o.... oh...
simpsonsgranpa.gif

 

[BrownChickenBrownCow]

I thought there was 50/50 snap in metro, I could swear that I've seen it before. Anyway, I think it should be added. 80/20 and 50/50 are pretty much perfect for Metro. Windows 7 did not introduce the snap concept at all, it was there in individual programs for at least 10-15 years. I remember mIRC and chat windows snapping back when people cared about IRC.

The "desktop mode" on RT is only there because MS ran out of time to convert everything to Metro. It'll be phased out, or should be. Traditional Windows desktop as we know it does not belong on a tablet, and definitely not on a Metro UI. Once MS makes a great file manager and migrates all the settings to Metro, there will be no point to it besides Office, which will also move to Metro completely.

Hmmm I'm pretty sure you are wrong about 50/50 snap being automatic before Windows 7 unless you did it manually.
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows7/products/features/snap

I think there is more to the desktop mode in RT than just office. There is still a lot of power user function within the desktop especially for BYOD and some advanced network settings.

I don't think seeing the movement toward a metro environment requires any foresight or theory. It is painfully obvious that Microsoft wants you in the metro environment and they are purely appeasing the masses by keeping the desktop there. While you may not agree with it, the market might. As does enterprise. (keeping the desktop that is) The market tells me this.

Windows 10-15 years ago when you used it is a lot different today, however that said I appreciate the fact that you have taken it down a notch with the conversation to prevent a troll ban, but I still think you are talking out of your ass.

 

[coldfoot]

Hmmm I'm pretty sure you are wrong about 50/50 snap being automatic before Windows 7 unless you did it manually.
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows7/products/features/snap

I did not say at an OS level, but within an application you could easily make as many windows as you want snap. Try mIRC and you'll see what I mean.

I think there is more to the desktop mode in RT than just office. There is still a lot of power user function within the desktop especially for BYOD and some advanced network settings.
I don't think seeing the movement toward a metro environment requires any foresight or theory. It is painfully obvious that Microsoft wants you in the metro environment and they are purely appeasing the masses by keeping the desktop there.

Everything will be finally migrated to Metro with time. MS and many of their faithful customers are just having a hard time accepting that their traditional Windows software catalog means jack squat when it comes to tablets and they have to start over again, without a defacto monopoly this time.

Windows 10-15 years ago when you used it is a lot different today, however that said I appreciate the fact that you have taken it down a notch with the conversation to prevent a troll ban, but I still think you are talking out of your ass.

My thoughts on the Pro have not changed junior, I still think it is a half-baked tablet that will fail and RT will be developed further until last resemblance to traditional Windows OS is purged.

 

[BrownChickenBrownCow]

1. I did not say at an OS level, but within an application you could easily make as many windows as you want snap. Try mIRC and you'll see what I mean.


2. Everything will be finally migrated to Metro with time. MS and many of their faithful customers are just having a hard time accepting that their traditional Windows software catalog means jack squat when it comes to tablets and they have to start over again, without a defacto monopoly this time.


3. My thoughts on the Pro have not changed junior, I still think it is a half-baked tablet that will fail and RT will be developed further until last resemblance to traditional Windows OS is purged.

1. Yes, but snapping within an application is not relevant to the conversation about an OS and how it handles the snapping of programs.

2. Yea everything is going to Metro with time, you could have the insight of a paper bag to catch that, however the desktop will probably stay in one form or another for at least 10 years (see MS-DOS).

3. Whoa... Junior... *bow* you got me. Doesn't change the fact that you are talking about an operating system in which you have had very little interaction with for the past 10 years. So in essence you are just a troll covering Microsoft threads in your verbal fecal matter, member.

 

[coldfoot]

=1= Yea, but snapping within an application is not relevant to the conversation about an OS and it's functions.

Yes it is, I'm showing to you that the idea was there in the 90's. Win7 snap isn't a big deal because Win7 programs aren't really optimized for that layout anyway.

=2= Yea everything is going to Metro with time, you could have the insight of a paper bag to catch that, however the desktop will probably stay in one form or another for at least 10 years (see MS-DOS).

Desktop windows is not going away, but it's not going to find traction in tablets. It'll be for laptops and workstations and servers, etc.

=3= Whoa... Junior... *bow* you got me. Doesn't change the fact that you are talking about an operating system in which you have had very little interaction with for the past 10 years. So in essence you are just a troll covering Microsoft threads in your verbal fecal matter.

When you try to play mod, you'll get the junior card. Also I use Windows every single day so I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[StudioTan]

On the Vergecast they destroy the Surface Pro. It's pretty entertaining, actually.

Did you expect anything different?

 

[BrownChickenBrownCow]

Yes it is, I'm showing to you that the idea was there in the 90's. Win7 snap isn't a big deal because Win7 programs aren't really optimized for that layout anyway.


Desktop windows is not going away, but it's not going to find traction in tablets. It'll be for laptops and workstations and servers, etc.


When you try to play mod, you'll get the junior card. Also I use Windows every single day so I don't know what you're talking about.

You can't be serious about snap in Windows 7. A lot of programs use it effectively. It is a quick resize of a window.

But you were commenting on how resized app windows don't work on tablets, and I was telling you that the snap function has existed since 7 and isn't a metro innovation, so apparently resizable windows works in a tablet environment.


I'm sure you use Windows everyday, however it does not reflect in your knowledge of the operating system in it's most modern form and it's basic functions, and you bring up an mIRC example to defend why you thought you were right? Hell the current UI screenshots on their official page are from Windows XP dude. So yea you probably use Windows XP at work everyday. Its over 10 years old.


Me going back and forth with you isn't going to change your mind, and that definitely isn't my intention. I am just fascinated in how much you post about an operating system that you don't intend to use, and one you definitely don't know about.

 

[Troll]

Did you expect anything different?

No, I love it when Paul chimes in. He's always the most informed opinion on the show.

 

[Returners]

No, I love it when Paul chimes in. He's always the most informed opinion on the show.

What did he say on the show?

 

[Nero3000]

No, I love it when Paul chimes in. He's always the most informed opinion on the show.

Right this will be entertaining, maybe ill keep a log of my thoughts while listening to the podcast...

 

[Troll]

What did he say on the show?

You guys are just going to have to listen to it, I think they get onto Windows about 40 minuets in. They spend most of the show talking about Superbowl commercials.

 

[eastmen]

You guys are just going to have to listen to it, I think they get onto Windows about 40 minuets in. They spend most of the show talking about Superbowl commercials.

but then i'd have to listen to the verge cast and in the end its not worth it. That show is horrible they just all love to talk over each other and simply don't make any good points

 

[a secret-boss]

tomorrow's the DAY.

woooo

 

[Returners]

You guys are just going to have to listen to it, I think they get onto Windows about 40 minuets in. They spend most of the show talking about Superbowl commercials.

alright I took the bullet. 48:20 in.

Fine device, good speed, screen amazing, pen nice.

Ergonomically blows. Either a better tablet or a better laptop.

Hard to use on lap, hard to use on desk.

"What am I supposed to do with it?"

Suffers from misplaced expectation. All compromise device.

Wrong idea, but a great device.

Battery life etc. 16:9 not comfortable to hold, read. Too heavy for 1 hand.

 

[Rommel]

How weak are people that 2 lbs is too hard for one hand? wtf...

Anyhoo, just got my email from Best Buy

Your reserved order will be ready for pickup on Saturday, February 9, 2013

 

[SCHUEY F1]

How weak are people that 2 lbs is too hard for one hand? wtf...

Anyhoo, just got my email from Best Buy

Your reserved order will be ready for pickup on Saturday, February 9, 2013

These guys had trouble holding a Lumia 920, not surprised.

 

[coldfoot]

How weak are people that 2 lbs is too hard for one hand? wtf..

Holding it for hours is not comfortable, even the iPad is too heavy for that.

 

[Izuna]

Holding it for hours is not comfortable, even the iPad is too heavy for that.

I hold the RT fine in one hand/lower arm, like a clipboard.

Realistically speaking, it's just as tiring as carrying nothing holding just your arm up for hours. Try it.