It will take time , TV's of that size are still not that cheap and we haven't realy seen touch screens past 20 or so inches and the bigger you go the fewer points of touch they seem to have.
So it will take some years
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Surface |OT|
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It will take time , TV's of that size are still not that cheap and we haven't realy seen touch screens past 20 or so inches and the bigger you go the fewer points of touch they seem to have.
So it will take some years
Don't worry, there is more than likely a solution incoming. In a worst case scenario, you would have to make do with a Sub $500 program like art rage, sketchbook Pro, or similar utilities. From my standpoint, it's been an exceptional tablet thus far, and I purchased it specifically for artistic applications.
RT is the future of Microsoft in the tablet space. The underlying ARM/x86 does not matter as consumers won't know what's powering their tablets, they can easily make RT on x86 if Intel starts offering competitive mobile chips, and by that I mean mostly price competitive. What matters is that EVERYTHING is metro and metro only without any reminders of a traditional Windows desktop, which will never be good to use with touch.
Metro is a great UI, better than current iOS and Android from an aesthetic and smoothness standpoint. It's just lacking the years of polish on those other OS's and the app store. Unlike phones though, the tablet market is still young and the iOS/Android app store for tablets does not have an insurmountable lead in apps over the Windows tablet app store. It may very well be too late for phones, but the tablet market is still young.
The moment you see a Windows desktop on a touch device, it's a sign of failure. Keep touch OS for touch devices and keep desktop for laptops/workstations.
Thanks for the heads up. I may check into Art Rage, while Sketchbook Pro is somewhat decent for android, it lacks simple "select" options.
Also, the demo unit seemed to have a tiny bit of lag with the pen. I hope it was due to overuse of that particular unit, and not a common issue.
Having a Desktop is not a "sign of failure", because every device with touch also supports hundreds of millions of devices like mice and keyboards too. Whether Windows 8 or Windows RT, this is true.
Now, the obvious areas for improvement are reducing the instances of needing to use the Desktop with touch, but saying that the simple existence of the Desktop is a "sign of failure" is being ridiculously ignorant of everything that Windows 8 is for.
This is the black-and-white thinking that Apple wants you to have because they want you to buy more devices, not fewer. The reality is that the entire world is heading toward convergence, not divergence, which means single devices that work equally well with a mouse and keyboard as they do with touch. It doesn't matter if Microsoft, Apple, Google, or some other competitor is first to perfectly converge devices like this, the fact is that's absolutely where the world is heading, and as such there is absolutely reason to have the Desktop exist on devices with touch.
If there is going to be convergence, it'll be with a notebook that you can detach the screen and run it as a lightweight tablet instead of a 2lb brick with a fan. Think of it as a screen with all the required tablet parts + a keyboard with all the ports, extra cpu/storage, etc.
Besides I am not too sure on the convergence thing, we don't see fridges with toasters built. But still, keeping an open mind, I'll say that the moment they can make the tablet part as lightweight as an iPad mini and make is still as powerful as an ultrabook is when they'll succeed. I don't foresee technology coming to that level for at least 5 more years.
I would design such a convertible that if you touched the screen it'd go to metro and you would be locked out of the desktop unless you had the keyboard attached. It's all about controlling the user experience these days as witnessed by the popularity of sandboxed devices such as phones, tablets, consoles, and app stores. Being inside the desktop with only touch input available is a fail state that you want to avoid when designing your device.
new Atom SoC PCs. I'm using a Windows 8 tablet right now that is lighter than an iPad and just as thin.
Is it the W510? My feeling is Atom is just too slow for traditional Windows apps. I utilize my 2 IVB cores to the max at times myself and could not live with an Atom device as my only machine.
Interesting note, I saw one of those in MicroCenter the other day for $499, same price as the Surface RT, but running full Windows 8. It was about the same weight as one as well.
BrownChickenBrownCow
Banned
blah blah blah. Yea we know. You've discussed this at length in this thread and we ALL realize that the desktop will be legacy at some point in the future. This is not new, however the desktop isn't going anywhere, it will be used less over time, but it won't go anywhere. So it will always be a failure in your eyes or for at least the next 10 years.
Reasoned discussion is good for these threads, so long as people keep their language in check.
"Fridges and toasters", now you're even using Apple's language in addition to espousing their entirely manufactured mindset.
Apple is the company that espoused convergence once with the iPhone - a web browser, an iPod, and a phone in one thing. But that first iPhone was tremendously compromised. It had bad battery life, bad performance, was severely limited compared to the features of many smartphones of the time, it was extremely expensive at launch too.
Apple is only saying that convergence doesn't work between tablets and laptops because they don't have a product that does it yet. And you're completely believing them.
The worst part is that you're saying "If there is going to be convergence, it'll be with a notebook that you can detach the screen and run it as a lightweight tablet instead of a 2lb brick with a fan." So now you're saying:
1) There won't be convergence
2) If there's convergence, it will only work in this one extremely specific form factor (which is silly and unimaginative since in the future a device like the Surface Pro could easily exist in a box with the size, weight, and battery life of the current iPad)
3) If this converged device is used in this one extremely specific form factor, other features that might be a little more difficult to use should be totally locked out
Ugh, no thanks. Just because stuff is less-than-optimal on the Desktop with touch doesn't mean it's impossible. Let the customer decide.
BrownChickenBrownCow
Banned
No offense but you're a shit designer. So glad you don't work for MS.
And it did not sell that well. iPhone really did not explode until there was an app store and many apps. The real gangbusters iPhone was iPhone 3GS/4.
No, because Apple won't usually make such a product before the technology is really ready for it. If you want notebook replacing performance, ARM and Atom isn't going to cut it. You need a proper high-performance x86 chip like IVB, which results in a 2 lb brick with 5 hour battery life and active cooling fan.
Even assuming you could do with an Atom or a future x86 chip that's fast and low-power, anything over 10 inches is too large for a tablet and too small for a notebook, so there is that physical problem that seems to be insurmountable with the current technology. There is a reason people want their notebooks to be at least 13" and tablets to be small, perhaps 8" is the ideal size judging by how the iPad mini is a hit despite the low specs. That's because big screens are required for productivity while small screens are required for portability.
Customers are idiots and they will panic when the touch interface they've been working all along suddenly changes to a windows desktop that they can't navigate by touch very well. It is not consistent at all and people have been shunning windows 8 as response. I have seen it among many non-techy people who hate the windows 8 that came on their laptops. I personally am fine with it, but most people aren't.
So you're saying convergence is the right idea, the hardware just wasn't ready for it?
Really? Right after your previous sentence? Normally these things are separated by at least a few paragraphs, or full-blown posts.
There will never be a perfect screen size for everyone, that's why there will always be many options. In addition to external monitors to plug into for real work. Or to wirelessly stream to.
Or, who knows? You're not very imaginative.
Again, you're not being very creative or imaginative. You're seeing things exactly as they are today, and assuming that in the future only tiny tweaks are possible, therefore the entire thing should be scrapped.
Look at Windows 95. It retained all the power user scenarios of the command prompt, but the system could be used completely without ever touching the command prompt. No one ever saw the command prompt who didn't want to see it. Maybe in Windows 95 it wasn't perfect, but as time went on, the DOS window absolutely never popped up in front of people who didn't want it.
But for those who did want it? It was just a couple keystrokes away.
the ipad is like a microwave with only a single button that says pizza on it.
Sure it makes some tasty frozen pizza but what if you want to make something else ? I guess you can put the other stuff in there and mash the pizza button over and over again and hope for the best. But I rather have a microwave that has the proper tools for each job .
The surface has the proper tools for each job.
Sure it makes some tasty frozen pizza but what if you want to make something else ? I guess you can put the other stuff in there and mash the pizza button over and over again and hope for the best. But I rather have a microwave that has the proper tools for each job .
The surface has the proper tools for each job.
BrownChickenBrownCow
Banned
My iPad 4 weighs 3lbs with a snap on cover with built in keyboard that folds into a stand. Does that make it a brick too? Would you like me to take a screen shot to prove the weight?
Without the keyboard in my other case it is still over 2lbs. BRICKS I TELL YA.
Without the keyboard in my other case it is still over 2lbs. BRICKS I TELL YA.
I should put it out there, just in case there are people reading this who don't know from my other posts in this and other threads, that I do work for Microsoft, and I do work on Windows. I spent 3 years of my life working on Windows 8, and I'm right in the middle of what's coming next. What I've posted doesn't reveal anything about that 
I'm obviously biased and emotionally invested!
I'm obviously biased and emotionally invested!
dream
Member
I don't know. It seems problematic to argue that everything is moving towards convergence when Apple and Google are moving in the opposite direction. Microsoft seems to be the only company spearheading a push towards convergence and, by most accounts, these products (including those made by OEMs) aren't selling very well.
I should put it out there, just in case there are people reading this who don't know from my other posts in this and other threads, that I do work for Microsoft, and I do work on Windows. I spent 3 years of my life working on Windows 8, and I'm right in the middle of what's coming next. What I've posted doesn't reveal anything about that
I'm obviously biased and emotionally invested!
tell them to make a hunter green type or touch cover darn it !
And the weight is a temporary, minor setback. There will probably be a Surface 2 with 256 GB SSD, Haswell CPU with 8-12 hours battery life, and slightly thinner. Then Broadwell die shrink, memory die shrink and by 3rd gen you'll have compact size, extremely long battery life, very high performance. That's only 1.5 years from now. I think MS timed this just right even if the 1st gen has too many concessions for me personally.
He needs to sneak in registry changes to the Windows installer to neuter the charms bar on desktop, and then disable Admin Approval Mode along with the requirement for it in Modern Apps. THEN he may do your hunter green type cover thingy.
Not coincidentally, people are gravitating towards tablets like the iPad mini and Nexus 7 precisely because they're much smaller and lighter. Honestly, even the regular iPad is too heavy to hold in one hand for a while, especially with a case.
Compared to laptops, the Surface Pro's weight (when adding in a type cover) is pretty similar to 11" ultrabooks.
BrownChickenBrownCow
Banned
Well these products are supply hamstrung and are 4 months into release. Android tablets didn't take off the until Asus and Google introduced the Nexus 7, before that Kindle Fire and Nook would have nice christmas bumps and then dwindle during the year. IIRC Kindle Fire was pushing about 6million units in 2011 with like 45%+ of the android tablet market, and this was with complete retail support (BB, TGT, WM and all the big players) and their massively popular online store. So it is a little premature to make a call on whether convergence is the right/wrong move just by looking at the Surface.
Remember the Surface was sold at ~50 retail locations nationwide starting late October, and had a limited christmas push toward the begining of December at some Big Box retail locations (which IMO was a really big mistake, it was shoehorned into planograms all over the place and not given proper retail space)
You have to take in account that Intel announced huge subsidies for haswell chips for ultrabook makers who include touchscreens. So whether you like it or not touchscreen Windows 8 devices are going to flood the market Q2 2013, in all shapes and sizes. Just like the cheap android tablets did in 2011 and 2012.
@GuessWho
I totally agree with you. I think MS needs a solution at the 7" size, if they want to really penetrate the market. I had the opportunity to use an iPad Mini for a couple of days and it was a delight. It was the perfect size/weight for just screwing around on the internet/facebook/youtube while laying in bed. We have kindle fire HD and the 7in one in the house, but they were second rate compared to the Mini. Should have waited and got Nexus 7's for the parents, but we ran out of time for Christmas.
Convergence for phones were the right idea and smartphones did exist before Apple made the iPhone. They had the right idea with the bigger screen than anyone else at the time, no physical keyboard and no stylus, plus an app store and hardware that's fast enough for the job. I mocked the OG iPhone and boasted that my Nokia N95 could do much more, which it did at the time. However with the 3GS, I jumped onboard due to the App Store. The best chance for the Pro is to be like that OG iPhone.
There isn't a perfect screen size that can accomodate a laptop and a tablet at the same time. Anything that's too big for a tablet is too small for a laptop and vice versa.
Show me these mass produced resizeable LCD's please? I go by what's available to mass produce, not some one-off prototypes and stuff that's years away from being a reality. Truth is, the Surface Pro is a gimped laptop and a very bulky heavy tablet TODAY. You can't just call me unimaginative if we're talking about products that are available today. It is what it is.
There will be Windows 12, iOS 20 and 10 more generations of Intel and ARM processors by the time your future arrives. This thread is about the Surface, available TODAY with TODAY's technology.
With a GUI vs. Command prompt you still have the same interface since you still need the keyboard with a GUI. A touchscreen is a complete different UI paradigm. MS is just trying to use their Windows library to advance into the tablet app ecosystem where they're behind. Unfortunately for them, traditional desktop Windows doesn't work well with touch.
How huge are these subsidies? I mean, when we're talking about the cheap Android tablets and Fires we're talking under $200. That has implications on what's 'flooding' the market and how the public will receive them. I'm not sure the comparisons are really valid in that regard.
I think Google is getting really close. It doesn't make sense that Chrome OS and Android are two separate things. There are a lot of hints that Google is about to release Chromebooks that have touch. From there, imagining a Chromebook with with a detachable screen that turns it into an Android tablet seems reasonable, and by then they'll have probably unified their OS too.
Apple has already brought a number of iOS concepts into Mac OS, and every iteration of Mac OS further increases that. Notification Center, Launchpad, iCloud, messaging, and more. They'll undoubtedly introduce touch into Mac OS within the next year or two, and soon after, create devices that seamlessly blend Mac OS with iOS. Or just continue improving iOS to the point that it supplants the need for Mac OS, by bringing some amount of multi-windowing to it.
0.5 lbs is a lot of weight plus the iPad is heavy to begin with anyways. After using the mini I could never go back to a regular iPad.
I'd actually prefer if my iPad was heavier, but then again I loved my 7lb laptop that had a real GPU in it and could game like crazy for it's time.
Every single one of your posts that I've responded to has been about future trends of where computing is going. You're making broad statements about what doesn't work now, and will never work in the future. You can't just pretend to backpedal now and act like those posts don't exist.
You're dramatically underestimating how fast future progresses. I'm sitting here on my Lenovo x220 Tablet that came out less than 3 years ago. When I got it, it was a thin, light, portable laptop, with a top-of-the-line touchscreen. Now it's heavy as a brick, gets bad battery life, has a shitty screen with horrible touch support, and is pretty slow too.
My wife just got the Acer Aspire S7. It's absolutely unbelievable how much lighter and thinner it is, how much better the screen is, etc. Her entire 13.3" computer is almost as thin as just the screen on my x220.
By the end of this year, we'll probably have a PC that's as powerful as the Surface Pro, that's as thin as the Surface RT, with the battery life somewhere in between. I don't know if it'll be built by Microsoft, or Apple, or some other company. But it'll almost certainly exist.
The command prompt doesn't work awfully well with a mouse.
a secret-boss
Banned
Anyone tried Baldur's Gate HD on this yet. Since it's suppose to work with Intel graphics
The only statement of "never working in the future" from me was Windows desktop on touchscreen devices, and I still stand by that claim. If a device is mostly intended to be used as a tablet, you have to make sure everything it does as a tablet is Metro and never traditional Windows UI. You must have a built in (or included) keyboard/mouse for every single device that's going to use that UI.
The keyboard did not go away OR become any less important with the rise of the GUI. It never became optional. With a tablet, it is optional.
If you see the future as touchscreen ultrabooks like the S7, they are rarely used as tablets.
Raven77
Member
BrownChickenBrownCow
Banned
My comment was in response to convergence and touchbased Windows UI being something that will take off or not, and more directed as towards Windows 8 succeeding as a whole. Not a Surface comment. Just like android tablets really getting their foot in the door in the same aspect. Lower cost, higher volume, eventually better quality.
I don't think we will see Windows at the $200 mark with touchscreens unless Microsoft either releases something themselves, or they reduces the licensing fee on RT. They really should just offer Office RT for one or two years with an option to renew afterwards by subscription on RT machines.
And again, the problem to solve is not getting rid of the Desktop entirely, it's making so that people using devices who never want to see the Desktop, never have to see the Desktop, and never accidentally end up getting thrown onto the Desktop against their will.
But it's always there, in case you have a keyboard and/or mouse you want to use, and in case you're comfortable with getting by using it with touch (which I often do on my Surface RT, thanks to the Ribbon interface in Explorer)
The simpler and more elegant solution would be to not include it instead of overcomplicating it by putting in a Desktop that's a completely different environment such that even your mail settings in Metro won't be the same as your e-mail settings on the desktop, further confusing customers.
Tablet customers have spoken and they're not comfortable with using their tablets with mice.
A keyboard is sometimes used in tablets solely for typing purposes only instead of navigating the OS. Mouse is not wanted or desired when you have a touchscreen as the primary method of input as in a tablet.
That's an even smaller niche than a stylus.
BrownChickenBrownCow
Banned
I recall a conversation about digitizers/pens that was about the future, and a bunch of references about "the market says this now" "the market says that now".
The keyboard did become less important with the introduction of the GUI, while it was essential for word processing, and some command prompt/power user things it was no longer used for executing programs. The mouse took that over, as well as many other functions.
With a tablet, the keyboard is still built into the tablet via software, and the mouse which as been replaced with touch, but if you want to do real work you will go mouse and keyboard. So there is a progression of these physical peripherals that are being replaced slowly (but not indefinately), but since it doesn't fit your arguement I can understand why you would want to overlook them.
Do you have statistics as to how the S7, or the Yoga are being used? No, but Microsoft does.
Where did you read that? Or is it something you just pulled out of your ass to prove one of your points. Does the iPad/Android support drivers for mice? No, so what you meant was Google and Apple have spoken and they do not want customers using their tablets with mice.
Most touchscreen ultrabook reviews say the touchscreen isn't that useful.
Can you please tell me what other tablet OS's actually exist that natively support mice and productivity applications which use mice to give them far more potential and precision than touch?
The absence of a device does not equate to the lack of demand for that device.
coldfoot, you're out of your league. How can you scream about talking about NOW with the Surface when the iphone example you gave showed how Apple being slightly ahead of the curve in terms of tech paid off for them. MS will be on their 3rd gen. version of their convergence product when Haswell is released later this year and Apple/Google will be debating if they should get in on the action or plotting the best way to do so. It doesn't take a genius to know that convergent products that adapt to your usage scenario is where things are heading. Who in their right mind would want to carry a phone, a tablet and a laptop if they can get a device that has great battery life, is powerful, can play many of the high performance pc games, all of the productivity software you can throw at it and is as light as a tablet. A device that you can use like a tablet on the go and get to work, plug it into a large monitor and keyboard gives you a full blown workstation that would put any workstation a couple years old to shame performance wise. This isn't a pipe dream. This is coming before the end of the year.
BrownChickenBrownCow
Banned
Interesting, because I recall a Verge review that was very snuggly about the touchscreen weeks after reviews were out. Why don't you go use a product before you make assumptions.