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[Macka]

I've been trying to weigh this against the Michelle in Fiji and the Aaron in China situations. I think Aaron's might be the most unfair because of how it played out but maybe isn't as inherently unfair as the other two. There's very few realistic potential outcomes from this twist that aren't ridiculously unfair to the person voted out. Sierra would have been fucked, too. Not a fan.

I think Michelle was more swapfucked than Aaron. He was sent to another tribe with a partner, and had a chance to possibly integrate or win challenges to save himself. It's not as if the idea of the others throwing challenges was a foregone conclusion, especially in those days. Apparently Aaron also refused to talk strategy with Zhan Hu which contributed to them being willing to throw the challenge in the first place.

On the other hand, Malcolm was voted out by a separate tribe that he had never even interacted with. Plus he still only went because of an idol. Usually idol plays are fine. Savage in Cambodia getting got was great because he brought it on himself by making himself the figurehead and giving Kelley a reason to target him. But in this case, it wasn't based on the social side of things at all. It was a complete hail mary.

Not to mention Tai found the idol at camp, while Troyzan found his in a challenge. I dislike everything about how this all came together tbh.

 

[Macka]

Edit: Oops.

 

[tmac456]

Basically. Great TV, but hurt the integrity of the game. Don't wanna see this shit put back in future seasons.

exactly. and to lose such a strong player on that kind of nonsense makes it 10x worse. jumped the shark big time

 

[Pegasus Actual]

Integrity of the game? Meh, Survivor is a non-stop bullshit parade anyway. It's not the kind of game where your fate is really in your hands. At best you have that illusion. So for entertainment value, I enjoyed it. Ultimately I don't really care which of the greedy fame-whores get the most money and fame, it's all about watching them lose! Peace out Malcolm.

 

[Macka]

Integrity of the game? Meh, Survivor is a non-stop bullshit parade anyway. It's not the kind of game where your fate is really in your hands.

I'd love to hear you justify this. Obviously there's the odd person who gets swapfucked from time to time, but overall there's very few ways someone could get voted out without it being mostly their fault.

This is one of the few glaring exceptions.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

People hating on JT for trying something when he was completely swap-fucked in just the last episode.

 

[MSMrRound]

JT always exposed without Fishbach

 

[Macka]

Here's a cut confessional from Tai from before Tribal, where he talks about how he intends to use the idol to get rid of Malcolm.

We saw in the episode that Malcolm's tribe decided on Sierra beforehand, and with this we have confirmation that all of the 'scrambling' at Tribal accomplished absolutely nothing. There's no room to play with this twist. You just have to hope whoever you vote for doesn't spring an idol.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

I'd love to hear you justify this. Obviously there's the odd person who gets swapfucked from time to time, but overall there's very few ways someone could get voted out without it being mostly their fault.

This is one of the few glaring exceptions.

Well dropyerbuffs even without the surprise super-size council is inherently unfair because you can be put into a situation where you have zero chance of continuing no matter how good your game was to start with. For that matter just the tribe you start out with can totally fuck you. There have been some real bad tribes that probably had some players who would've had a fair chance if not paired with complete boobs. Or towards the end they'll some bullshit immunity challenge where players can gang up on the 'physical threat' making it easy to keep him from getting immunity whereas other seasons they'll have none of that.

I think if you replay all the seasons with a different random mix of starting tribes, or a different dropyerbuffs draw the vast majority would have different winners. It's not completely random, but it's closer to Chutes and Ladders than it is to Chess if you ask me. The only players I really respect are the ones that pushed the 'meta' forward such as it is, but those people don't always win because hey sometimes you need a ladder and you get a chute.

 

[RepairmanJack]

Well dropyerbuffs even without the surprise super-size council is inherently unfair because you can be put into a situation where you have zero chance of continuing no matter how good your game was to start with. For that matter just the tribe you start out with can totally fuck you. There have been some real bad tribes that probably had some players who would've had a fair chance if not paired with complete boobs. Or towards the end they'll some bullshit immunity challenge where players can gang up on the 'physical threat' making it easy to keep him from getting immunity whereas other seasons they'll have none of that.

I think if you replay all the seasons with a different random mix of starting tribes, or a different dropyerbuffs draw the vast majority would have different winners. It's not completely random, but it's closer to Chutes and Ladders than it is to Chess if you ask me. The only players I really respect are the ones that pushed the 'meta' forward such as it is, but those people don't always win because hey sometimes you need a ladder and you get a chute.

Of course luck has always and will always be some aspect of survivor, you can't really help that, but there is a vast difference from the tribe you start with or getting screwed by a swap and what this twist was. It was just fuckery for fuckery's sake.

 

[llehuty]

Of course luck has always and will always be some aspect of survivor, you can't really help that, but there is a vast difference from the tribe you start with or getting screwed by a swap and what this twist was. It was just fuckery for fuckery's sake.

I don't think it's the case. This could have been easily avoided if the 6 were tight and didn't leak information to the other tribe. It was an easy 6 against 5, and veteran players should be more careful about that stuff, and taking idols into account, etc. They could had easily searched for idols themselves, but they got cocky.

And you know, win immunity if you don't want to get voted out.

 

[RepairmanJack]

I don't think it's the case. This could have been easily avoided if the 6 were tight and didn't leak information to the other tribe. It was an easy 6 against 5, and veteran players should be more careful about that stuff, and taking idols into account, etc. They could had easily searched for idols themselves, but they got cocky.

And you know, win immunity if you don't want to get voted out.

I'm not saying there wasn't things that could have been done to avoid it. Or that it was even handled well. I'm just talking on a scale of Survivor and introducing twists. On that regard it's just bullshit.

Taking the result and what happened completely out of it, I just don't like that this was ever even thought of. They wanted it to be a random scramble.

Talking about the actual events though I still don't think very much of what actually happened at tribal even changed anything. Malcolm's exit interviews pretty much say nothing really changed.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

I don't think it's the case. This could have been easily avoided if the 6 were tight and didn't leak information to the other tribe. It was an easy 6 against 5, and veteran players should be more careful about that stuff, and taking idols into account, etc. They could had easily searched for idols themselves, but they got cocky.

And you know, win immunity if you don't want to get voted out.

The reason this shit twist actually worked for the producers was because last episode they had another unnecessary twist that fucked JT over 5 to 1.

 

[RepairmanJack]

The reason this shit twist actually worked for the producers was because last episode they had another unnecessary twist that fucked JT over 5 to 1.

I wouldn't really compare a swap to a twist, they've been happening for a long time now and they expect it.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

I wouldn't really compare a swap to a twist, they've been happening for a long time now and they expect it.

A swap is fine, it is a twist but it is also eventually expected.
However immediately following it with this crap just sucks.

This is legitimately the most annoying thing in all the seasons of Survivor for me.(and I don't like Malcolm)

 

[RepairmanJack]

A swap is fine, its a twist but its expected.
However immediately following it with this crap just sucks.

In a way though, I could actually see this vote attempt as a way to counteract the unfairness of the uneven tribe swaps. They now have the chance to realign with past alliances and make a change in the game.

I could at least see that as the thinking. The only problem is it should have been done in a way that more made it like a temporary merge and not just a sudden tribal with no cross strategy. They wanted the exciting tribal and they did a disservice to the game to get it.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

In a way though, I could actually see this vote attempt as a way to counteract the unfairness of the uneven tribe swaps. They now have the chance to realign with past alliances and make a change in the game.

I could at least see that as the thinking. The only problem is it should have been done in a way that more made it like a temporary merge and not just a sudden tribal with no cross strategy. They wanted the exciting tribal and they did a disservice to the game to get it.

Problem with that for me though is that its too early for that,
If it wasn't JT so outnumbered and against a player like Sandra its foolish this early to try setting that up.

This situation closer to the merge might have been great but it is just too early.
However if suddenly the merge happened next episode i'd forgive it.

Honestly i'd accept them going full stupid at this point,
Merge for a few episodes, split into 2, merge again.

 

[cartographer]

Re: swaps - the difference is swaps generally give you a few days with the people you vote with. I think fans are generally too loose with the term swap fucked, especially considering how often the tribes flip on their original numbers.

I think Michelle was more swapfucked than Aaron. He was sent to another tribe with a partner, and had a chance to possibly integrate or win challenges to save himself. It's not as if the idea of the others throwing challenges was a foregone conclusion, especially in those days. Apparently Aaron also refused to talk strategy with Zhan Hu which contributed to them being willing to throw the challenge in the first place.

On the other hand, Malcolm was voted out by a separate tribe that he had never even interacted with. Plus he still only went because of an idol. Usually idol plays are fine. Savage in Cambodia getting got was great because he brought it on himself by making himself the figurehead and giving Kelley a reason to target him. But in this case, it wasn't based on the social side of things at all. It was a complete hail mary.

Not to mention Tai found the idol at camp, while Troyzan found his in a challenge. I dislike everything about how this all came together tbh.

If you you play both twists out infinite times with infinite casts, the GC twist screws people over far more often than the China twist. I never want to see the China twist again because of its potential for bullshit, but it's not as inherently unfair as the GC twist. But I do think the Aaron situation is pretty much worst case scenario for the China twist. It just required very specific variables to be that bad.

I don't think it's the case. This could have been easily avoided if the 6 were tight and didn't leak information to the other tribe. It was an easy 6 against 5, and veteran players should be more careful about that stuff, and taking idols into account, etc. They could had easily searched for idols themselves, but they got cocky.

And you know, win immunity if you don't want to get voted out.

That doesn't change the twist being bull shit, just the victim. Most potential results end up being majorly unfair in some way. Even if it was Tavua and Mana and they split votes between Troyzan and Hali with Troy playing his idol, Troy still loses his idol in a situation he wouldn't have and loses his ability to idol out whomever. And if they all vote for Troyzan anyway and Troy idols out a Mana player, that player is screwed too. It's just icky and cheap.

 

[thecouncil]

"JT's not getting a Christmas card. Stupid kid couldn't keep his mouth shut."

- Malcolm's hilarious parting words.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

"JT's not getting a Christmas card. Stupid kid couldn't keep his mouth shut."

- Malcolm's hilarious parting words.

Didn't JT even ask Malcolm if he should talk to Brad?

 

[#sorrynotsorry]

I know everyone loves to hate him but Brad is doing legitimately well this season and he's interesting. He's not my favorite but I do like him much more. He's forming the right bonds and holding his tribe together:

- Convinced Tai to backstab Caleb
- Had the relationship with JT
- Controlled Tai's idol play

I can't think of any way he could have played better. He's a major threat.

 

[hoverboarder]

I know everyone loves to hate him but Brad is doing legitimately well this season and he's interesting. He's not my favorite but I do like him much more. He's forming the right bonds and holding his tribe together:

- Convinced Tai to backstab Caleb
- Had the relationship with JT
- Controlled Tai's idol play

I can't think of any way he could have played better. He's a major threat.

Plus all of his feng shui antics in trying to increase morale around camp.

This write-up on Brad's first time playing may even change some people's perspectives on the last time he played. It did for me.

 

[RepairmanJack]

I know everyone loves to hate him but Brad is doing legitimately well this season and he's interesting. He's not my favorite but I do like him much more. He's forming the right bonds and holding his tribe together:

- Convinced Tai to backstab Caleb
- Had the relationship with JT
- Controlled Tai's idol play

I can't think of any way he could have played better. He's a major threat.

I do think he's playing great and think he is doing a good job of having loyal alliance members around him, but I feel like it wouldn't be a stretch seeing his move of crossing JT and voting out Malcolm could be a bad move for him. JT will now trust him less and it puts JT in a bad situation with his tribe and Malcolm was always going to be a target and be a target before him so it seems almost like a misfire to me. Cudos on him keeping his tribe strong and coming out ahead but feel like he may have not made the best possible decision in this situation.

 

[Macka]

This write-up on Brad's first time playing may even change some people's perspectives on the last time he played. It did for me.

Easily the best entry of v3 so far.

Brad's been fantastic this season. I loved Malcolm and Varner's reactions to the Nuku camp having decorated trees, before it cuts to Brad doing the same on his new beach lol.

 

[llehuty]

Plus all of his feng shui antics in trying to increase morale around camp.

This write-up on Brad's first time playing may even change some people's perspectives on the last time he played. It did for me.

Damn! Mind blown. A really nice read.

 

[Mega Man's Electric Sheep]

The article made a good point that there was far more talk about Culpepper being an asshole than footage shown of him that supported that conclusion. Yes, he said he wanted to punch Gervase, but Gervase was being a superdouche at the time lol

 

[Cromat]

Poor Malcolm.

Why didn't they target Debbie or Hali? They should have known no one would use an idol on them and they wouldn't have used it on themselves at this point.

 

[BunnyBear]

I don't think it's the case. This could have been easily avoided if the 6 were tight and didn't leak information to the other tribe. It was an easy 6 against 5, and veteran players should be more careful about that stuff, and taking idols into account, etc. They could had easily searched for idols themselves, but they got cocky.

And you know, win immunity if you don't want to get voted out.

It's never easy when there's idols in play. And they did search for idols, they just didn't find any. Stop being led by the edit FFS.

 

[SecretMoblin]

just caught up, and I see the "twist" very much lived up to its hype.

What a disaster for the show, and even though I was never really a Malcolm fan, what a terrible way for a player to be forced off the show. It was made even worse by Jeff's garbage feigned shock "wow I cannot BELIEVE this is happening!!" throughout.

It's a shit way to treat some of the personalities and fans who helped Survivor last as long as it has. I don't know if they see BB as something to aspire to, but it really felt like a culmination of all the disappointing nonsense brewing over the last decade.

Jeff should have never been made showrunner.

 

[BunnyBear]

just caught up, and I see the "twist" very much lived up to its hype.

What a disaster for the show, and even though I was never really a Malcolm fan, what a terrible way for a player to be forced off the show. It was made even worse by Jeff's garbage feigned shock "wow I cannot BELIEVE this is happening!!" throughout.

It's a shit way to treat some of the personalities and fans who helped Survivor last as long as it has. I don't know if they see BB as something to aspire to, but it really felt like a culmination of all the disappointing nonsense brewing over the last decade.

Jeff should have never been made showrunner.

If Jeff hadn't been made showrunner, the show would have gone off the air. He is both responsible for its recent success and it's smaller failures (this twist, medallion of power, Tyler Perry idol, etc.) Gotta take the good with the bad.

 

[GeoNeo]

I hope Brad Culpepper wins. ;_;

 

[DeviantBoi]

Troyzan found an idol but it turned out to be just a clue to an idol.

Tai found an idol and it turned out to be an idol and not just a clue.

Why didn't Tai find a clue?

So while everyone is at the challenge, the crew is back in camp removing the unfound clues and hiding idols that can be used in tribal.

During tribal, they remove the unfound idols and replace them with clues for idols hidden in challenges.

Ehhhh... not sure I like this.

 

[mackaveli]

Troyzan found an idol but it turned out to be just a clue to an idol.

Tai found an idol and it turned out to be an idol and not just a clue.

Why didn't Tai find a clue?

So while everyone is at the challenge, the crew is back in camp removing the unfound clues and hiding idols that can be used in tribal.

During tribal, they remove the unfound idols and replace them with clues for idols hidden in challenges.

Ehhhh... not sure I like this.

Tai found a clue first then the idol.

 

[DeviantBoi]

Tai found a clue first then the idol.

True, true. I misremembered that.

But it was a clue to an idol that he could find right away. He didn't have to wait until the next challenge.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

Probst is the best host on TV, I got no problems with him running the show. It's all about watching Jeff help people tie the rope around their necks at tribal. Whatever game-making he does in service of that goal is fine by me!

And of course they're cycling out clues and idols. It would make zero sense to leave a clue for an idol that was there two challenges ago!

Without a constant stream of idols the game gets really boring.

 

[BunnyBear]

I'll defend the show to the death but there's definitely been some funny business with idols in the past and probably in present times.

The Tai one was weird.

 

[Unison]

I'll defend the show to the death but there's definitely been some funny business with idols in the past and probably in present times.

The Tai one was weird.

Yeah, my biggest Survivor pet peeve is an idol found without a clue. Tai found a clue, but it was pretty out of the blue and ridiculous.


Worst random idol was Tyson on BvW. I am 100% convinced that at the very least the cameraman's actions tipped him off.

 

[Grexeno]

It was stated multiple times in pre-game press that idols would be hidden in various different ways this season. At challenges, at camp without clue, at camp with clue, etc.

Tai's idol find likely took place before the show tells us it did. The show is not always edited chronologically.

 

[Macka]

It was stated multiple times in pre-game press that idols would be hidden in various different ways this season. At challenges, at camp without clue, at camp with clue, etc.

Tai's idol find likely took place before the show tells us it did. The show is not always edited chronologically.

Both Tai and Sierra say in the episode that Tai found the idol 'ten minutes' before Tribal.

I don't have a problem with idols being found in different ways, but I think there should be some uniformity there. Trozan's idol was much more challenging to get than Tai's was. Honestly, it seems much more likely that production is just switching out the clue while the tribes are at challenges - before the challenge it would be a clue for an idol in the challenge, and afterwards it's one found at camp. Because production want every chance for contestants to get idols.

The main thing that bugs me is that the 'clue' to the ones found at camp are ridiculously clear though. Not so much a clue as it is a treasure map. It seems unfair that they are so much easier to find that way, and considering this is what allowed the Tribal to go down the way it did, it stands out even more.

 

[#sorrynotsorry]

Idols make things interesting. They can't be hidden so well or so hard to find that they don't come into play at all.

They better bring Malcolm back for a fourth time. That was so outrageously lame that he deserves it. Terrible twist. I still can't get over it a week later.

That said, after reading the article above I'm now 100% aboard the Culpepper train. He's in my top two of people I hope will make to the end now.

 

[cartographer]

Yeah, my biggest Survivor pet peeve is an idol found without a clue. Tai found a clue, but it was pretty out of the blue and ridiculous.


Worst random idol was Tyson on BvW. I am 100% convinced that at the very least the cameraman's actions tipped him off.

I've heard both Erik and Corinne speculate about idol shenanigans from Caramoan. At the very least, some players are really good at noticing how much the crew is paying attention to them and using that to marrow their search.

And then theres Kass who basically outright says they make sure certain people get the idols.

 

[Macka]

If production helped certain contestants get idols, Tony would still be in the game right now.

 

[kirblar]

If production helped certain contestants get idols, Tony would still be in the game right now.

X

Same w/ Russ in his 3rd season.

Russ's trick was watching the watchmen.

 

[SuperSonic1305]

Have they done a season of people who were removed for stuff like picking the black rock, blindsides, or medical evacuation?

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Have they done a season of people who were removed for stuff like picking the black rock, blindsides, or medical evacuation?

They did Philippines where they brought back three medevacs back for the three tribes. There's not really enough to get a full season out of that (especially without bringing back a lot of "who?" type people). Only three people have ever drawn a rock, so there's not much potential there. And "blindsides" is way too broad. At least 50% of players have been blindsided to some extent.

 

[cartographer]

Have they done a season of people who were removed for stuff like picking the black rock, blindsides, or medical evacuation?

Philippines brought back three players who had all been medically evacuated, but it wasn't full returnees.

It's also a top 2 or 3 season, IMO.

 

[kirblar]

Philippines brought back three players who had all been medically evacuated, but it wasn't full returnees.

It's also a top 2 or 3 season, IMO.

It's really something they should do again, they have enough recent ones to make it work, and it lets them avoid having to gimmick up the tribes.

 

[peteykirch]

Sandra gonna gut JT like a fish.

 

[BTM]

JT clutching it up

 

[peteykirch]

Boom and JT finds an idol clue out of the blue, and then the idol.