Well of course, any meaning of "front liner" is meaningless if your army is powerful enough to kill all enemy units because they do any amount of damage.
Edit: To further elaborate, why don't I call my wizards light front liners? Because they're supposed to be at the back to avoid damage. If you can avoid damage altogether that your front liners do not take any significant damage. There's no distinction at all. Ninjas (barring steelstance/decoy spam) and rogues do not tank damage well.
Tanking damage isn't of any real importance in this game. Dual attacker's can deal out so much damage that using slower, less mobile, and less powerful units over them is rarely more effective. Healing is trivial in this game with how broken item use and lobbers are, and healing magic gets super effective once you can pair Major Heal III or IV with mother's blessing.
The thing is, it seems like your main problem with Tactics Ogre is based around what you call the "optimal strategy." You reduce TO down to one of its more significant features (TP points and skills) and present the game in an oversimplified manner that is more focused on pointing out the easiest way to beat the game instead of the easiest way to enjoy the game. The funny thing is the same can be done for most of the games I've played from the list you linked.
I love Fire Emblem, but if you're a good min/maxer you can take care of that game with little to no problems, and make it seem incredibly simple and boring in the process. However, even if you do play the game with efficiency as your primary concern there is no reason why you can't still enjoy it. I honestly feel like this is the case with any SRPG, at least with the ones I've played.
Choosing to play a game in the most boring manner possible and then complaining that it's boring is utterly daft.
If you try to play God of War never getting hit it's probably going to turn into a very tedious game of X X roll, X X roll, X X roll, over and over again until the end of time. That doesn't mean God of War is a terrible game.
Most single-player games have some exploit that makes the game broken / easy / boring / whatever. In a lot of games the "best" way to play is also the least fun. This is definitely a problem with the design but purposefully choosing to exacerbate it is just not smart.
In SRPGs I try to use a wide range of characters. This is almost never the best strategy but I enjoy it and it typically makes the game both harder and more enjoyable thanks to character diversity. In Shining Force 2 I used the Godzilla dude, even though I knew he was bad. in Tactics Ogre I don't store up TP then use it all on the boss, instead I fight "normally", try to surround the boss with tough characters to minimize the damage they do, use CHARIOT as often as I like and have a lot of guys get incapped. And?
I love competitive games. Single-player games are not competitive. Being the "best" at them seems like such nonsense - who cares?
Playing Tactics Ogre and only using the starter classes sounds terrible. Why exclude a vast amount of the content for no reason?
Again, it's bad design if a strategy game takes no real strategy due to exploits. But this describes most games, and if you aren't aware of an exploit in a single-player game it probably just means you need to keep looking. It's the choice of the player to make the game boring for themselves.
In the arcade version of TMNT if you inch forward one pixel at a time in places where you normally encounter a pack of enemies you'll get one to appear, kill him, inch forward, another appears, etc. That's probably the "best" way to play the game, and if you combine that with only using the special attack you can probably beat the game without getting hit. Sounds awesome right? It's a logical problem in the game but also a logical problem in a player who chooses to abuse it then complains that the game is boring and easy.
Tanking damage isn't of any real importance in this game. Dual attacker's can deal out so much damage that using slower, less mobile, and less powerful units over them is rarely more effective. Healing is trivial in this game with how broken item use and lobbers are, and healing magic gets super effective once you can pair Major Heal III or IV with mother's blessing.
In a no incapacitation run, several enemy units in a row can easily take out a non steelstanced ninja, swordmaster, or any unit in front without good defense. Why add an extra healing unit when you can replace another unit that can tank much better and survive without someone else healing them? Either your army is so awesome that it just obliterate the enemy, or you have to admit that non tank units in the front line can die in 2-4 enemy moves even without using high tp or finishing moves.
Of course, everything is again irrelevant with Chariot or save/load. Just reload until they hit someone else or heal your unit up in time, why even bother?
So I'm stupidly early in, and did I take a wrong turn or something? The main path sent me to some fight with a necromancer who summons a bunch of undead that slaughter my party. The whole fight feels deathly imbalanced, and yet the world map marks this as the only real objective(I think?). The two random battles I did previous to this fight on the world map were fine, but something is amiss. It takes 3-4 turns to down a single zombie when they are practically 1-shotting my team!
Is it a matter of blowing all 30k of my starting money on better gear?(Weird way to ease players in I would think) Just grinding in the first couple fields?(Also weird...) This doesn't seem right.
Weird. Gotta wonder what the point of leaving in the first place was. To get slaughtered, reload, and go back? Couldn't have been that obvious a beginner's trap.
Also, how worried should I be about missable stuff? Especially for a first run. Will that fight cease to exist if I push forward too far?
So I'm stupidly early in, and did I take a wrong turn or something? The main path sent me to some fight with a necromancer who summons a bunch of undead that slaughter my party. The whole fight feels deathly imbalanced, and yet the world map marks this as the only real objective(I think?). The two random battles I did previous to this fight on the world map were fine, but something is amiss. It takes 3-4 turns to down a single zombie when they are practically 1-shotting my team!
Is it a matter of blowing all 30k of my starting money on better gear?(Weird way to ease players in I would think) Just grinding in the first couple fields?(Also weird...) This doesn't seem right.
Make sure you don't go too far through the story missions or that mission(and the eventual quest chain associated with it) with be gone forever. That's if you wanna do it.
Yeesh, went back and tried the optional Necromancer battle again after spending like 30 minutes upgrading more skills and getting my archers some greatbows.
Felt really cheesy using the Chariot system to make sure some of my spells actually hit(sometimes they would miss with 89% hit rate consistently...buh), and well my success was entirely factored into having Canopus(sp? wing guy) do a suicide run at the Necromancer while his minions slaughter my party down below. Though I won in the end, it didn't feel really satisfying. But now that BS is out of the way, I am hoping the challenge feels more normalized as I press on with the game proper.
Just really weird how the game immediately throws an optional death trap fight at new players. It's not even obvious to return right back to the castle after leaving(your first time even using the world map even!) to make forward progress, the game literally sends you to Necromancer guy according to the map path. Again, weird.
I'm also hating the interface, it's likely been discussed to death, but for every 30 minutes of combat, I am spending equal time just trying to outfit my party with skills and spells through obscene amounts of layers of interface. Overwhelming, impractical, and a real buzzkill. I'm sure in time it will all become second nature, but goddamn.
So I'm stupidly early in, and did I take a wrong turn or something? The main path sent me to some fight with a necromancer who summons a bunch of undead that slaughter my party. The whole fight feels deathly imbalanced, and yet the world map marks this as the only real objective(I think?). The two random battles I did previous to this fight on the world map were fine, but something is amiss. It takes 3-4 turns to down a single zombie when they are practically 1-shotting my team!
Is it a matter of blowing all 30k of my starting money on better gear?(Weird way to ease players in I would think) Just grinding in the first couple fields?(Also weird...) This doesn't seem right.
Whew....I thought I was alone here, I've been put off playing this game for the last week because of this one battle, so you people say this is optional? I sure hope so as the severe ass kicking I received has caused me to fear playing the game
Whew....I thought I was alone here, I've been put off playing this game for the last week because of this one battle, so you people say this is optional? I sure hope so as the severe ass kicking I received has caused me to fear playing the game
It is, and it doesn't disappear until the end of the chapter. Just go the other way and after a few more battles it should be much easier.
I'm also hating the interface, it's likely been discussed to death, but for every 30 minutes of combat, I am spending equal time just trying to outfit my party with skills and spells through obscene amounts of layers of interface. Overwhelming, impractical, and a real buzzkill. I'm sure in time it will all become second nature, but goddamn.
Yeah, you'll get used to it, but for now don't try to do too much at once. You don't really need to review everything after every battle, but rather upgrade a bunch of stuff, advance several battles and then look at the new equipment and see if there's something you need. The only thing you should look into as soon as possible is setting several upgradeable skills for every character (Anatomy, weapon of choice, elemental boosts...), because they take a long time to level up.
So at level 19, I was kind of getting owned-ish in the first map of the Hanging Gardens, so I decided to recruit Azelstan instead, which was quite possibly harder, and I didn't even level up anyone in the process (afterward, I did fight one more battle to get Denam to 20, however). Man, that last battle to get Azelstan was tough! I exhausted just about all of my items, and barely made it out of there alive.
Hopefully now I'll be able to tackle The Hanging Gardens a little easier (Denam just got a serious weapon upgrade at level 20), but I might need to fight one or two random battles more. I don't think I want to level up Azelstan at this point so late in this file. It takes so long to get them up to level, not to mention to get worthy skills equipped.
Things don't really become missable until chapter 4. If you can stomach it, a guide on when certain sidequests become available and unavailable is advised if you don't want to miss anything.
About missable things, (not a spoiler, but spoilering for the people who claim they want to know nothing yet read a message board thread about the game):
If there is a named character not on your team in a battle as an ally, if they die (and leave a bag of loot), they're dead forever. You might have been able to recruit them, so do your best to keep them breathing.
That's not really true. There are missable sidequests/characters as early as chapter 2. But check the latest news in the warren report after major events and you should be fine.
So I am moving along and I hit some battle where I am supposed to save some AI chick. Well the battle starts me off with my party on one end of the map and she is alone on the opposite side.
Two turns later I am just barely able to even get my group moving out of the shitty boxed corner the game forces me in at the start, and the AI girl is dead from mage spells and archer fire(also she is an AI idiot that seems suicidal). Game Over when she dies...WTF, Game Over? I seriously was doing all I could to move my ass over to her. It's not like I made any grievous tactical errors during the fight, hell I didn't even have a chance to fight yet!
This game is full of too much BS at the start. I was shocked when it sent me to Game Over after her insipid death. I'm like 6 battles into the entire game! Including the tutorial ones! The Necromancer was a stupid beginner trap, one that I scraped through barely, but I can forgive. But this was pure BS.
That mission is kind of shit since it's so dependent on the AI to not be an idiot. ..which is mostly up to chance.
You can either choose not to save her (which makes the mission easier but you miss out on a potential recruit) or you can equip some of your own team to make them more appealing target for the enemy AI. I got lucky on my second try so I didn't have to worry about it.
That mission is kind of shit since it's so dependent on the AI to not be an idiot. ..which is mostly up to chance.
You can either choose not to save her (which makes the mission easier but you miss out on a potential recruit) or you can equip some of your own team to make them more appealing target for the enemy AI. I got lucky on my second try so I didn't have to worry about it.
Yea, I might just stop playing period. I can see why this game is so beloved, and I am -hooked- on the actual battles, but everything surrounding the core combat gameplay is just utter shit. Interface is entirely inefficient(honestly reason enough to have me quit), story is incomprehensible, and that AI inconsistency ruined what should have been an interesting narrative choice.
That Game Over was a sign to move on and never look back.
Yea, I might just stop playing period. I can see why this game is so beloved, and I am -hooked- on the actual battles, but everything surrounding the core combat gameplay is just utter shit. Interface is entirely inefficient(honestly reason enough to have me quit), story is incomprehensible, and that AI inconsistency ruined what should have been an interesting narrative choice.
That Game Over was a sign to move on and never look back.
Wait. How does the lack of outfitting and mid-battle loading make everything about the UI entirely inefficient?
How is the story incomprehensible?
And why am I the only person who never has trouble with saving people? Hobyrim was the only time I had to retry and it was just a matter of Quickening Ravness and giving her Wade.
The AI people getting themselves killed is one of the most annoying parts of the games. Making the player feel like they have no control over the situation is pretty lame.
The UI makes some stuff (magic, skills, equipment) a lot more tedious than it has to be, no doubt about it. And I'm having a hard time figuring out why anyone thought that AI companions would be a good idea (seriously, you can keep me from making equipment/job changes if you must, just let me control the stupid character).
..but I still love the game. I don't agree with the story complaint either. In fact, I've come to love the dense political drama style that Matsuno uses. Just brush up in the Warren Report if you're confused about the names.
Yea, I might just stop playing period. I can see why this game is so beloved, and I am -hooked- on the actual battles, but everything surrounding the core combat gameplay is just utter shit. Interface is entirely inefficient(honestly reason enough to have me quit), story is incomprehensible, and that AI inconsistency ruined what should have been an interesting narrative choice.
That Game Over was a sign to move on and never look back.
The AI *is* fucking suicide, most likely you'll have troubles on battles that require saving a certain NPC
ESPECIALLY on the second Azelstan battle, that one was VERY interesting...
but to dismiss the WHOLE game because of this reason... that's going way too far; it's not like every single battle in the game involves saving NPCs.
Also, I don't think the interface is inefficient, I think it does the job very well and I never had any troubles past the first battles. Story being incomprehensible? you can pretty much review all the story parts using the Warren's Report.
Yea, I might just stop playing period. I can see why this game is so beloved, and I am -hooked- on the actual battles, but everything surrounding the core combat gameplay is just utter shit. Interface is entirely inefficient(honestly reason enough to have me quit), story is incomprehensible, and that AI inconsistency ruined what should have been an interesting narrative choice.
That Game Over was a sign to move on and never look back.
Yea, I might just stop playing period. I can see why this game is so beloved, and I am -hooked- on the actual battles, but everything surrounding the core combat gameplay is just utter shit. Interface is entirely inefficient(honestly reason enough to have me quit), story is incomprehensible, and that AI inconsistency ruined what should have been an interesting narrative choice.
That Game Over was a sign to move on and never look back.
In any of the missions where you have to save someone just grab a few of the Horns that cause bad weather from a shop (can't remember the exact name at the moment). At the beginning of the fight use one to make the weather worse and notice how everyone is limited to 1 or 2 squares of movement per turn except for Canopus. This allows you to easily fly him in for healing and protecting duty while giving the rest of your party time to catch up. It's a very effective strategy that has yet to fail me in those missions.
The interface is the farthest thing from inefficient, to be completely honest. Yes, it is a bit overwhelming at first, but after playing the game for a few hours you will find yourself marveling at just how well designed everything is. The complexity of the game requires a deep and complex menu system so just accept that you will be overwhelmed for awhile and take some time to learn how everything works. It's completely worth it in the long run.
The story may seem incomprehensible at first but it's only because it's deeper than your average video game story. If you spend some time learning about the back-story and the characters involved you will be rewarded for it in the long run. One thing that helped me a lot was watching the intro video that plays if you idle on the main menu for about 30 seconds or so. Also, use the Warren Report to refresh your memory or re-watch cutscenes that you found confusing or incomprehensible.
One thing I will say is that spending a lot of time in menus is crucial and practically required in this game (especially once crafting opens up). If you don't enjoy that level of micromanaging then it's certainly a possibility that this game just isn't for you.
Eventually lucked out and was able to save the AI girl, thankfully she survived long enough for me to clean house...
funny enough, she took off anyway because of my narrative choice in the cutscene post-fight...whatever
.
It's been easy going since that fight. Just hit Chapter 2 and am surprised how greatly the branching system may seem to come into play if that final decision I made in Ch. 1 has as much bearing as I presume.
I'm still not at all sold on the shop interface, it's archaic, dated, and a pain in the ass. In terms of the actual interface outside of shopping, it's mostly fine, but not as elegant or efficient as need be. I'm constantly futzing with layers and screens to figure basic info out that could have been highlighted more readily. But yes, in the big picture scheme of things, the interface is functionally fine at providing relevant info.
I hate the story presentation personally(at least so far). It's as dry and witless and full of names that require something like a Warren Report to dig through, because who could possibly absorb any of it on the first pass? Normally, if I was engaged enough to care, I would happily pore through the codex, but the sheer density of it all is thrust too haphazardly, and it lacks any real hook to ease an outsider in. Much like the shop interface, it's clunky and demanding too much effort on the player.
Eventually lucked out and was able to save the AI girl, thankfully she survived long enough for me to clean house...
funny enough, she took off anyway because of my narrative choice in the cutscene post-fight...whatever
.
It's been easy going since that fight. Just hit Chapter 2 and am surprised how greatly the branching system may seem to come into play if that final decision I made in Ch. 1 has as much bearing as I presume.
I'm still not at all sold on the shop interface, it's archaic, dated, and a pain in the ass. In terms of the actual interface outside of shopping, it's mostly fine, but not as elegant or efficient as need be. I'm constantly futzing with layers and screens to figure basic info out that could have been highlighted more readily. But yes, in the big picture scheme of things, the interface is functionally fine at providing relevant info.
I hate the story presentation personally(at least so far). It's as dry and witless and full of names that require something like a Warren Report to dig through, because who could possibly absorb any of it on the first pass? Normally, if I was engaged enough to care, I would happily pore through the codex, but the sheer density of it all is thrust too haphazardly, and it lacks any real hook to ease an outsider in. Much like the shop interface, it's clunky and demanding too much effort on the player.
I don't think the story is dry or witless at all. I think the translation is incredible.
Fair enough complaining about the density and effort, I can understand that... but witless???
Hey ho, each to their own.
Edit: By the way, the story does get better and will become easier to understand as you play.
Eventually lucked out and was able to save the AI girl, thankfully she survived long enough for me to clean house...
funny enough, she took off anyway because of my narrative choice in the cutscene post-fight...whatever
.
It's been easy going since that fight. Just hit Chapter 2 and am surprised how greatly the branching system may seem to come into play if that final decision I made in Ch. 1 has as much bearing as I presume.
I'm still not at all sold on the shop interface, it's archaic, dated, and a pain in the ass. In terms of the actual interface outside of shopping, it's mostly fine, but not as elegant or efficient as need be. I'm constantly futzing with layers and screens to figure basic info out that could have been highlighted more readily. But yes, in the big picture scheme of things, the interface is functionally fine at providing relevant info.
I hate the story presentation personally(at least so far). It's as dry and witless and full of names that require something like a Warren Report to dig through, because who could possibly absorb any of it on the first pass? Normally, if I was engaged enough to care, I would happily pore through the codex, but the sheer density of it all is thrust too haphazardly, and it lacks any real hook to ease an outsider in. Much like the shop interface, it's clunky and demanding too much effort on the player.
Well I'm going to grab this off the PSN, but first can someone exlplain to me the 40 dollar price point? I'm not trying to troll. For some reason I thought 30 was the standard price point. I cant recall what Peace Walker was originally. Anyhow the 1UP retrospective sold me as I dont see too many games referencing the
Yugoslav Civil War
.
I also like the rewind features for SRPG putzs like myself.
It was worth every penny at $40. Most big psp games released at $40 (Peace Walker including) up until early this year pretty much. Might be because of the NGP announcement too.
Wait. How does the lack of outfitting and mid-battle loading make everything about the UI entirely inefficient?
How is the story incomprehensible?
And why am I the only person who never has trouble with saving people? Hobyrim was the only time I had to retry and it was just a matter of Quickening Ravness and giving her Wade.
Just find a decent spot to grind a few random battles and only bring the minimum number of units that you need. The lower level classes will get the bulk of the EXP.
You can also get a few generic units from a shop, change them to Swordmaster, and bring all of them into a random battle. Having more units from the same class helps the class level up faster.
Just find a decent spot to grind a few random battles and only bring the minimum number of units that you need. The lower level classes will get the bulk of the EXP.
You can also get a few generic units from a shop, change them to Swordmaster, and bring all of them into a random battle. Having more units from the same class helps the class level up faster.
Just find a decent spot to grind a few random battles and only bring the minimum number of units that you need. The lower level classes will get the bulk of the EXP.
You can also get a few generic units from a shop, change them to Swordmaster, and bring all of them into a random battle. Having more units from the same class helps the class level up faster.
Swordmasters are great as well. I love the pre-empt skill. I'm training mine as well some other lower classes in the wildwood. You get to that not too long after rescuing him.
Sorry, it only gets worse. The strange thing is I enjoy the items I craft more because of how inefficient the crafting process is. Something about pressing x and waiting 15 times in a row to get some iron ore makes that fresh new weapon or piece of armor feel kind of special.
That said, I don't hesitate to save my game right before I attempt to craft an item with the tons of ingredients I just got done making. That helps with my biggest gripe with the crafting system --- the fact that you lose your weapon/armor/jewelry if the crafting is unsuccessful. That seems unnecessarily brutal to me.
I wish myself, though it bothers me far less than actual weapon/armor shopping, where I can't directly compare anything. I do hate that I have to unequip current equipment to craft better +x versions. As meticulous as the menus and interface are, they are obscenely inelegent and ineffecient. It really is the biggest sticking point in keeping me from loving this game. Especially given how the opportunity was there to really modernize this stuff for a 2011 release.
Everything inside combat sorties is fabulous. Everything outside of it makes me want to strangle myself. I would hire an intern to do all the bullshit menu management/party upkeep between combat if I had the opportunity.
That said, I don't hesitate to save my game right before I attempt to craft an item with the tons of ingredients I just got done making. That helps with my biggest gripe with the crafting system --- the fact that you lose your weapon/armor/jewelry if the crafting is unsuccessful. That seems unnecessarily brutal to me.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread as well. Any game that punishes for crafting is bullshit. It promotes save-load shenanigans, and provides zero benefit for the dedicated player base. Especially damning for a 15+ year revisit where the entire point was to clean this garbage up.
So I am moving along and I hit some battle where I am supposed to save some AI chick. Well the battle starts me off with my party on one end of the map and she is alone on the opposite side.
Two turns later I am just barely able to even get my group moving out of the shitty boxed corner the game forces me in at the start, and the AI girl is dead from mage spells and archer fire(also she is an AI idiot that seems suicidal). Game Over when she dies...WTF, Game Over? I seriously was doing all I could to move my ass over to her. It's not like I made any grievous tactical errors during the fight, hell I didn't even have a chance to fight yet!
This game is full of too much BS at the start. I was shocked when it sent me to Game Over after her insipid death. I'm like 6 battles into the entire game! Including the tutorial ones! The Necromancer was a stupid beginner trap, one that I scraped through barely, but I can forgive. But this was pure BS.
I had the same issues. I actually got past this mission (barely) after having the AI character do the same dumb self destruct. It wasn't even clear at first that saving her was a mission requirement. Normally in SRPG's I don't mind having to do a random battle to get a level up, but I hate how long some of these battles take. I also really despise how the entire equip/abilities/magic UI works. When you go to the store and buy spells it's hard to know whether you can can even remember the spell. I loved FF tactics and A-2 but for some reason I find this game sorta vindictive in it's difficulty and UI.
Sorry, it only gets worse. The strange thing is I enjoy the items I craft more because of how inefficient the crafting process is. Something about pressing x and waiting 15 times in a row to get some iron ore makes that fresh new weapon or piece of armor feel kind of special.
I can sorta see why they made it this way, because crafted items usually end up two weapon levels higher than the weapon they were made from in the first place.
Though, they should have just made crafting items rarer/more expensive and remove the chance of failure.
see5harp said:
I had the same issues. I actually got past this mission (barely) after having the AI character do the same dumb self destruct. It wasn't even clear at first that saving her was a mission requirement. Normally in SRPG's I don't mind having to do a random battle to get a level up, but I hate how long some of these battles take. I also really despise how the entire equip/abilities/magic UI works. When you go to the store and buy spells it's hard to know whether you can can even remember the spell. I loved FF tactics and A-2 but for some reason I find this game sorta vindictive in it's difficulty and UI.
Heh, crafting is actually new to this release! There are a couple of UI issues that kinda reek of a lack of time in QA/budget, like the very barebones crafting or how unbalanced skill growth is, so hopefully the team can get another shot.
Are hidden battlefield items random?
Is there ever any point to breaking random scenery objects? I screwed around on my last battle doing just that, but never found anything interesting.
Not really something I can see myself pursuing or looking up in a faq, but I am curious.
I don't think they're random, but you can no longer find actual equipment in them, just expendable items and crafting materials, so don't worry too much about them.
It depends, it might be useful if the enemy is positioned correctly and that object is the only possible space for your next unit to attack, but it's very specific.
