NOTE: This thread will have slight spoilers about the existence of few characters, and light spoilers about Social Link/Confidant of few characters. Nothing major story-wise is spoiled here. Also, this OP will be very picture heavy and long, but no gifs are used, so it should be fine for mobile users. I will also note that I really like this game, its right now in the top of my GOTY list of this year, even surpassing Zelda.
Persona 5 was released in west three weeks ago, and people have started to clear the games story mode. I completed the game last week myself. Since then, Ive been thinking about the way the game shows LGBT themes. LGBT themes arent exactly the forefront of this game, especially less so than they were in Persona 4. But I want to discuss the way Persona 5 handles its LGBT themes.
In short, they dont do exactly stellar job about it. There is very, very little LGBT representation in this game. The examples Im going to go through are basically all there is in this game about the subject matter. Ill be going through negative and positive examples about LGBT representation in Persona 5. Since I know this opening post is very long, there is a very brief TL;DR in the bottom.
Negative Example A: Those Two Guys
If youve played the game, you know what Im talking about. These two unnamed men are the only explicitly gay characters in the game:
The game goes pretty much all out on the stereotype about these characters. They are effeminative gay men, who are basically preying on the innocent straight minor Ryuji.
The game lets you respond with a joke response to Ryuji that he has to basically man up against these unmanly gay men.
The men then take Ryuji away, and only implications about what happen are comedically referenced the next day in the game:
This isnt the last time these two characters are seen, though. They can be seen throughout the game in one of the districts in Tokyo, although they can be ignored there. They do end up appearing again in the beach scene. This time the game stops with the implications, and pretty much outright says, that these two men want to at least sexually harass minors.
So the scene starts with the two gay men making their entrance.
The scene is framed as being reflection to the boys attempts to hit on women earlier, so its more or less meant as a punishment towards them with the cost of showing these gay men again in an offensive light.
This whole scene feels very awkward and out of place, same as that earlier scene pictured above. But the worst part comes at the end, when the game outright states that these men are going to sexually harass these minors (16-year-olds, in this case).
The Boys react with running away in agony
And then the gay men running after them, since they are going to forcibly harass them. The game doesnt say they would molest them, but the way this whole thing is framed, I wouldnt be surprised if it was the intent of the writing.
The boys manage to escape, and the two gay men are never referenced directly in the game again, unless you go out of your way to talk to them in Shinjuku, where they make remarks about another male character who is still a minor.
So why is this stereotype harmful?
This is basically yet another example of a very troublesome trope widely known as "All Gays are Pedophiles". Although in this case the targets of the mens affections are 16, they are still definitely minors, and so fits this trope. This showing in this game is especially bad due to these two characters being the only two definitely gay men in Tokyo Protagonist will interact with.
The idea that All gay men are sexual predators, hunting for especially minors/children is especially troubling due to how this stereotype about gay men is actively used as a reason to abuse and hunt Gay minority in Russia especially. (Warning, some pictures in the link might be NSFW)
So it is worrying and harmful to see the game use this very damaging stereotype towards gay men, especially in this case where these two characters are the only explicitly gay men in the whole game.
---
Moving on to the other major problem the game has with LGBT representation:
Negative Example B: Lack of Choice
Persona 5 is a social life JRPG, where you can hang out, and make romantic connections to people. The game gives you multiple different romance options, including multiple women who are significantly older than the protagonist, which can lead into questions about power balance between the two sides of said romance. But the game gives you explicitly no gay romance choices, which is unfortunate, although not exactly a surprise, given how Persona 3 (Outside of P3P where Female Protagonist could romance Elizabeth and Aigis) and 4 were absolutely no-no to gay choices, even when it would have been the most logical conclusion writing wise (Persona 4 for example removed Yosukes romance option completely, even though there are signs that he was originally going to be one.).
But even more interestingly, there is nearly nothing in terms of LGBT representation in any of the social links of this game. There is only one reference to LGBT in most of the social links in this game, and its this scene with Yusuke, where you go out to a lake in a rowing boat. The lake is apparently popular among couples.
Right from the start you can make a reconfirmation that your character is indeed straight, with the option I should bring a girl here. But theres nothing to worry, since Yusuke is only interested in the passion between man and a woman.
At the end of the scene, the people in the boat next to you and Yusuke think you two are a gay couple.
Which your protagonist responds with seemingly distressed emotion of hearing the idea, while Yusuke didnt seem to hear the subject matter at all.
I wanted to talk about this scene in particular, because its more or less the only confidant scene in the game with any sort of LGBT theming in it. Its also a scene where the main protagonist shows some distress of being even labeled gay, and you are not given any other option about it. This is weird, especially since you are able to otherwise mostly choose your reactions to some level, and most definitely can choose what kind of women your character is attracted to, you can even choose them all.
So its a shame how this game is definitely against the idea of even having a gay option for you to romance. This is weird, especially in comparison to Persona 2, which actually let you choose a gay romance option in a very respectful manner. Its also a real missed oppoturnity, especially since the only gay characters shown before are harmful stereotypes.
---
Although the two examples talked above are negative, there is one positive example in the game about LGBT-representation, in my opinion:
Positive Example: Lala Escargot
Around the same time in the game you meet with the two gay men, you also meet up with Lala Escargot.
The game never explicitly states, if Lala is a Drag Queen, or a transgender character. By the framing of the narrative, the latter option seems more likely to me, personally. She runs a bar called Crossroads in the game, and while is not a confidant, seems to be fairly close to one of the confidants in the game, who hangs out in the bar. While she is never really the focus of the game, her being a drag queen/trans is not her defining characteristic, and its never used as a joke/take that against her. Instead its simply part of who she is, and nobody seems to question it, which is refreshing to see. The only gag you can really make about her being drag queen is if you take a job in the bar, and ask if you have to cross-dress too.
Not all about Lala is perfect, though. Her writing is more or less the stereotype of a hostess in Okama Bar (Okama Bar is a gay bar with usually drag queen hosts), yet the bar she seems to be running is not a gay bar at least explicitly. Her voice in the english dub is also very masculine, which might be so just to bring contrast to her visual design otherwise. Still, the way she is written is fairly tasteful, especially in comparison to the negative examples talked earlier.
---
So why does the LGBT representation in this game even matter?
The usual answer to criticism about LGBT representation in JRPGs is its a japanese game, so its a cultural difference. And while this is true, Persona 5s main themes are definitely about challenging the more problematic aspects and stereotypes about the Japanese society. The game talks about sexual harassment, womens worse position in work and even politics in a very well written manner. Yet even then, it falls back to these harmful stereotypes when discussing LGBT, even though its one of those problematic aspects the game is supposedly trying to challenge and rebel against. This makes the issues the game has with writing LGBT stand out way more than it would have otherwise.
Its also worth discussing this, since this is the third mainline Persona game in a row where the LGBT-community is written as either jokes or obstacles in some manner. Persona 3 had this transphobic joke:
Persona 4 first seemed to go deep into LGBT themes, but then backed out twice in favor of different types of story arcs altogether, while letting one of the main characters (Yosuke) act like a rampant homophobic with no one actually calling him out if it during the whole game. And like mentioned before, Persona 4 also seems to have removed a gay romance option at some point during development, even though those lines were even dubbed in english.
So I was really hoping that Persona 5 would be better about this, especially due to its main theme of rebellion, but I was left very disappointed about it. Im interested in hearing other people's opinions about the subject.
TL;DR: While Persona 5 has one fairly well written LGBT character, overall the game does bad job writing about the sexual minorities, with outright harmful stereotypes and complete lack of gay romance options.
Persona 5 was released in west three weeks ago, and people have started to clear the games story mode. I completed the game last week myself. Since then, Ive been thinking about the way the game shows LGBT themes. LGBT themes arent exactly the forefront of this game, especially less so than they were in Persona 4. But I want to discuss the way Persona 5 handles its LGBT themes.
In short, they dont do exactly stellar job about it. There is very, very little LGBT representation in this game. The examples Im going to go through are basically all there is in this game about the subject matter. Ill be going through negative and positive examples about LGBT representation in Persona 5. Since I know this opening post is very long, there is a very brief TL;DR in the bottom.
Negative Example A: Those Two Guys
If youve played the game, you know what Im talking about. These two unnamed men are the only explicitly gay characters in the game:
The game goes pretty much all out on the stereotype about these characters. They are effeminative gay men, who are basically preying on the innocent straight minor Ryuji.
The game lets you respond with a joke response to Ryuji that he has to basically man up against these unmanly gay men.
The men then take Ryuji away, and only implications about what happen are comedically referenced the next day in the game:
This isnt the last time these two characters are seen, though. They can be seen throughout the game in one of the districts in Tokyo, although they can be ignored there. They do end up appearing again in the beach scene. This time the game stops with the implications, and pretty much outright says, that these two men want to at least sexually harass minors.
So the scene starts with the two gay men making their entrance.
The scene is framed as being reflection to the boys attempts to hit on women earlier, so its more or less meant as a punishment towards them with the cost of showing these gay men again in an offensive light.
This whole scene feels very awkward and out of place, same as that earlier scene pictured above. But the worst part comes at the end, when the game outright states that these men are going to sexually harass these minors (16-year-olds, in this case).
The Boys react with running away in agony
And then the gay men running after them, since they are going to forcibly harass them. The game doesnt say they would molest them, but the way this whole thing is framed, I wouldnt be surprised if it was the intent of the writing.
The boys manage to escape, and the two gay men are never referenced directly in the game again, unless you go out of your way to talk to them in Shinjuku, where they make remarks about another male character who is still a minor.
So why is this stereotype harmful?
This is basically yet another example of a very troublesome trope widely known as "All Gays are Pedophiles". Although in this case the targets of the mens affections are 16, they are still definitely minors, and so fits this trope. This showing in this game is especially bad due to these two characters being the only two definitely gay men in Tokyo Protagonist will interact with.
The idea that All gay men are sexual predators, hunting for especially minors/children is especially troubling due to how this stereotype about gay men is actively used as a reason to abuse and hunt Gay minority in Russia especially. (Warning, some pictures in the link might be NSFW)
So it is worrying and harmful to see the game use this very damaging stereotype towards gay men, especially in this case where these two characters are the only explicitly gay men in the whole game.
---
Moving on to the other major problem the game has with LGBT representation:
Negative Example B: Lack of Choice
Persona 5 is a social life JRPG, where you can hang out, and make romantic connections to people. The game gives you multiple different romance options, including multiple women who are significantly older than the protagonist, which can lead into questions about power balance between the two sides of said romance. But the game gives you explicitly no gay romance choices, which is unfortunate, although not exactly a surprise, given how Persona 3 (Outside of P3P where Female Protagonist could romance Elizabeth and Aigis) and 4 were absolutely no-no to gay choices, even when it would have been the most logical conclusion writing wise (Persona 4 for example removed Yosukes romance option completely, even though there are signs that he was originally going to be one.).
But even more interestingly, there is nearly nothing in terms of LGBT representation in any of the social links of this game. There is only one reference to LGBT in most of the social links in this game, and its this scene with Yusuke, where you go out to a lake in a rowing boat. The lake is apparently popular among couples.
Right from the start you can make a reconfirmation that your character is indeed straight, with the option I should bring a girl here. But theres nothing to worry, since Yusuke is only interested in the passion between man and a woman.
At the end of the scene, the people in the boat next to you and Yusuke think you two are a gay couple.
Which your protagonist responds with seemingly distressed emotion of hearing the idea, while Yusuke didnt seem to hear the subject matter at all.
I wanted to talk about this scene in particular, because its more or less the only confidant scene in the game with any sort of LGBT theming in it. Its also a scene where the main protagonist shows some distress of being even labeled gay, and you are not given any other option about it. This is weird, especially since you are able to otherwise mostly choose your reactions to some level, and most definitely can choose what kind of women your character is attracted to, you can even choose them all.
So its a shame how this game is definitely against the idea of even having a gay option for you to romance. This is weird, especially in comparison to Persona 2, which actually let you choose a gay romance option in a very respectful manner. Its also a real missed oppoturnity, especially since the only gay characters shown before are harmful stereotypes.
---
Although the two examples talked above are negative, there is one positive example in the game about LGBT-representation, in my opinion:
Positive Example: Lala Escargot
Around the same time in the game you meet with the two gay men, you also meet up with Lala Escargot.
The game never explicitly states, if Lala is a Drag Queen, or a transgender character. By the framing of the narrative, the latter option seems more likely to me, personally. She runs a bar called Crossroads in the game, and while is not a confidant, seems to be fairly close to one of the confidants in the game, who hangs out in the bar. While she is never really the focus of the game, her being a drag queen/trans is not her defining characteristic, and its never used as a joke/take that against her. Instead its simply part of who she is, and nobody seems to question it, which is refreshing to see. The only gag you can really make about her being drag queen is if you take a job in the bar, and ask if you have to cross-dress too.
Not all about Lala is perfect, though. Her writing is more or less the stereotype of a hostess in Okama Bar (Okama Bar is a gay bar with usually drag queen hosts), yet the bar she seems to be running is not a gay bar at least explicitly. Her voice in the english dub is also very masculine, which might be so just to bring contrast to her visual design otherwise. Still, the way she is written is fairly tasteful, especially in comparison to the negative examples talked earlier.
---
So why does the LGBT representation in this game even matter?
The usual answer to criticism about LGBT representation in JRPGs is its a japanese game, so its a cultural difference. And while this is true, Persona 5s main themes are definitely about challenging the more problematic aspects and stereotypes about the Japanese society. The game talks about sexual harassment, womens worse position in work and even politics in a very well written manner. Yet even then, it falls back to these harmful stereotypes when discussing LGBT, even though its one of those problematic aspects the game is supposedly trying to challenge and rebel against. This makes the issues the game has with writing LGBT stand out way more than it would have otherwise.
Its also worth discussing this, since this is the third mainline Persona game in a row where the LGBT-community is written as either jokes or obstacles in some manner. Persona 3 had this transphobic joke:
Persona 4 first seemed to go deep into LGBT themes, but then backed out twice in favor of different types of story arcs altogether, while letting one of the main characters (Yosuke) act like a rampant homophobic with no one actually calling him out if it during the whole game. And like mentioned before, Persona 4 also seems to have removed a gay romance option at some point during development, even though those lines were even dubbed in english.
So I was really hoping that Persona 5 would be better about this, especially due to its main theme of rebellion, but I was left very disappointed about it. Im interested in hearing other people's opinions about the subject.
TL;DR: While Persona 5 has one fairly well written LGBT character, overall the game does bad job writing about the sexual minorities, with outright harmful stereotypes and complete lack of gay romance options.
AN is atrocious in this regard, and I don't really take anything from that game (or Arenas or Q) to be representative of the characters in the way they were portrayed in the numbered games.
