Frozenprince
Banned
It's also wildly out of character for him AND the direction they were taking his character until a design choice literally months before launch.
His homophobia never comes up again despite being in similar situations with Kanji.
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Taking a look at the LGBT representation in Persona 5 (Light Spoilers)
- Thread starter Burbeting
- Start date
His homophobia never comes up again despite being in similar situations with Kanji.
Like, it's weird; a Japanese company making a game for Japanese players about youthful rebellion in the face of the wrongs of Japanese society, and yet here we are. Not including any of it would be an understandable sidestep, at least, but actively including what they did is just kinda...woof.
Except for Lala. Lala's great and one of the most level-headed adults in the game.
The people who wrote P1-P2 are not the same as those who wrote P3-P5. That's pretty much all there is to it.
The people who wrote P1 and P2 were more forward thinking and progressive in terms of sexual identity than the P3-P5 crowd who also have to pander to the otaku demographic who only want to romance waifu's. Ironically P3-5 is still very popular with female regardless.
The people who wrote P1 and P2 were more forward thinking and progressive in terms of sexual identity than the P3-P5 crowd who also have to pander to the otaku demographic who only want to romance waifu's. Ironically P3-5 is still very popular with female regardless.
King Tubby
Member
It really sucks that the two gay dudes are so fucking awful. Persona definitely has a very weird take on sexuality in a lot of areas. It's basically a straight male throwback power fantasy, especially the way you can bang adult women and everything is a-ok. The Velvet Room girls are also...eugh.
I would go far as to say that she was THE most level headed adult in the game barring Confidants. Really enjoyed her character.
Persona 5 Crimson pls
See, I feel like the actual romancing stuff in these games are so half baked and minimal that I think there is absolutely 0 reason for why you can't romance the dudes. You just need one piece of dialogue to acknowledge "he is one of your many boyfriends now" and that would be it.
I also disagree with this. I've read plenty of Japanese media where the shoujou ai representation has almost zero sexual bait. I think there is an element of that which certain segments capitalize on to appeal to otaku, but i don't think that's the goal of all writers.
Pretty sure Naoko Takeuchi-san didn't write Haruka and Michiru for lesbian titilation, and same for her husband's YYH manga, sensui and Itsuki.
I don't think its fair to characterize it with a broad brush
Frozenprince
Banned
Because then they would be targeting fujoshi and I don't think the world at Large is redy for the "yaoi hole"
I know you're right, but it's still really frustrating. Is Atlus hearing me at all? It really feels like they don't care about what I think of the homophobic content in their games, since nothing's really changed.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
What the fuck is this garbage? I keep thinking of buying this game but then I keep finding awful shit about it that prevents me from doing so.
Even 90s sitcoms did better LGBT representation than this shit.
Even 90s sitcoms did better LGBT representation than this shit.
You're under the assumption that people only get in relationships to bang. As far as I know this game doesn't have that implication.
Its writers who are attempting to be progressive in certain areas, but are blatant hypocrites in trying to have their cake and eat it too in regards to who their userbase is.
P3P atleast had the option to romance guys as a girl, but now even straight females don't get options.
On the one hand i can understand the logistical nightmare it would be, but in trying to thread that needle, they don't even do what they do attempt as well as they should.
I don't even know what these mean, and I could probably google it, but I'm not sure if I want to.
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
Agree with the two stereotypical gay guys. It felt arkward as fuck. And I say this as someone who is not gay.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
Oh yes it does.
fujoshi are female otaku, the kind of girls who will draw light softcore doujinshi and drool about her nonexistent bishounen boy ships
Well, unlike P3 and P4, P5 has a romantic route for every single female confidant.
I've got a legitimate question that I'm sure someone will take completely out of context but I'm just genuinely curious, would it be as offensive if they weren't so flamboyant? Like, if they were just two gay dudes that were sexual predators without the ridiculous stereotypes, would there be as much anger? Is there any scenario where a gay dude being some sort of predator in a game would be acceptable?
For example, let's say...in The Last of Us,
And please don't take this as me somehow giving this a pass. I thought the scenes were pretty fucking ridiculous and had me rolling my eyes and skipping through.
For example, let's say...in The Last of Us,
there's the scene where David has Ellie prisoner and basically tells her if she'll willingly have sex with him, he'll be able to talk the others into letting her stay. If Ellie was a boy in the game, and everything else happened exactly the same, would that be something that would draw anger? Or would it be acceptable because it's clearly shown to be a fucked up thing and is not in there just for laughs?
And please don't take this as me somehow giving this a pass. I thought the scenes were pretty fucking ridiculous and had me rolling my eyes and skipping through.
JonnyDBrit
Member
That's a fair criticism - had forgotten about Shoujo Ai in spite of the handholding meme. The main point of reference that came up in my mind are the numbers of series that might have characters who are lesbian in every aspect but that the series refuse to actually confirm anyone as a couple because reasons. Still, bad move on my part.
You're right. The latter is an automatic story one though.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
which means "rotten girl". How cute.
I also do not know a lot of these terms but as a person who buys a Persona game every 8 years, I still firmly think that if you can romance the girls in the way that you do, you should be able to romance the guys.
Lala should have been a Confidant!
Man if you could romance Sae and Makoto that would make for one awful "them finding out" scene. TBH I'm a little disappointed there isn't a scene already where she finds out you and Makoto are together.
Frozenprince
Banned
A couple of the adult women links flat out say "oh we bangin tonight"
hydrophilic attack
Member
I find the whole "you can date anyone (as long as they're a girl)" thing really creepy. Some people are just not going to be into you. Human relationships are not like a game where everyone will want to have sex with you as long as you are sort of nice to them and put enough friendship points in
I have a question, why does this problem seem exclusive to Persona? I can't think of any other Japanese games that ive played where LGBT representation is offensive. Absent is much more common, but Persona is the only I can think of that I've been offended by.
Nier Automata seemed fine. I remember one operators mentioning another female operator that she was in love with. As a positive example, Danganronpa 3 (it's an anime but a sequel to the games) had a major character who was gay and wasn't treated as a joke. It was part of his characterization and explained some of his actions throughout the show.
Point is, I don't think it's a Japan problem, it's an Atlus/Persona Team problem.
Nier Automata seemed fine. I remember one operators mentioning another female operator that she was in love with. As a positive example, Danganronpa 3 (it's an anime but a sequel to the games) had a major character who was gay and wasn't treated as a joke. It was part of his characterization and explained some of his actions throughout the show.
Point is, I don't think it's a Japan problem, it's an Atlus/Persona Team problem.
Bluecondor
Member
Ya - I noticed the negative portrayal of homosexuality as well. They really went with the tropes/stereotypes.
This stands out like a sore thumb in a game that does an amazing job touching on serious themes related to suicide and sexual abuse.
This stands out like a sore thumb in a game that does an amazing job touching on serious themes related to suicide and sexual abuse.
Mattakuevan
Member
...would have been far more interesting than Ohya.
sensui-tomo
Member
before someone has a dumbass idea to post the dumbass bingo card
Dont say something like "well hey it says shoehorning/Only if the writing is only good" and act like this writing is fine.
Dont say something like "well hey it says shoehorning/Only if the writing is only good" and act like this writing is fine.
ArchedThunder
Banned
It would still be offensive imo. At best it'd be marginally less offensive than having that same gay person be a flamboyant stereotype, but still unnecessarily harmful. Like the work that one would have to do in order to make it "acceptable" is just not worth the effort from my perspective.
It would be creepier if they werent 'stereotypical flamboyant gay guys' you see in anime all the time, cause then it would not be played for laughs by the writer, and the tone would be completely different.
I think the only acceptable way to really go about having gay people in these series hitting on men is not not have them in any sort of predatory role to begin with
Unless your being serious about having a male friend in danger of bein raped by some guy on a power trip, but that would not work on Persona game as they are currently written. They would have to be much darker and written much more carefully which i don't think the current writers have in them
Yoko Taro (of Nier fame) is generally leagues above other Japanese devs in this sense. And sans the occasionally creepy hetero pervy shit, Hideo Kojima actually did okay here too, IIRC.
Hashino's come under fire recently for these instances, and I hope to god something is done about it in an update/expansion. Persona games are so contradictory with the MC, he is not a player insert because your options are limited to what the male MC actually would do, but him not being voiced leaves players believing that he is.
It's frustrating, coming from their failed experiments in P4 with gay and transgender characters, you would think they would get it down this time or at least attempt it. It's not rocket science Atlus. It also wouldn't interfere with your precious narrative either considering how the female romances have zero impact on the story and are just relegated to side events.
It's frustrating, coming from their failed experiments in P4 with gay and transgender characters, you would think they would get it down this time or at least attempt it. It's not rocket science Atlus. It also wouldn't interfere with your precious narrative either considering how the female romances have zero impact on the story and are just relegated to side events.
Japanese games in general don't really make any kind of effort. Case in point, the Harvest Moon games. There's yet to be one where you can marry somebody of the same sex after a dozen or so games.
Yeah, I realize it wouldn't fit in Persona, which is why I ended up just saying in any scenario.
King Tubby
Member
Lala Escargot - Temperance
Kawakami - Devil
Ohya - idk, disappears maybe
It checks out.
The writers have aversions to writing about gay topics and are unwilling to try and write gay relationships for their main characters who they firmly consider straight.
I think that's fair, but by that same token, don't include regressive stereotypes about the sexual orientation your not going to write about seriously.
That's where it crosses the line for me.
Let me clarify then, I'm used to not being represented. I'm not used to being made fun of or being perceived as a threat. That seems exclusive to Persona games from what I've played.
FTFY.
They should have made Lala and Ohya like the Strength (?) Arcana in Persona 4 with the sports guys. They represent the same arcana, but depending on what sport you choose one is the main s.link.
ArchedThunder
Banned
I think that one part of it is that a lot of Japanese devs (not all mind you) just avoid these things entirely to avoid controversy in other countries.
It doesn't really have anything to do with them being flamboyant, imo. I mean that's a ridiculous stereotype in itself, but the main issue is that the only gay characters in the game are being portrayed as predators. To even begin to try and get away with that, you'd need to have equal number or more of other gay characters who were good and had positive representation to counterbalance the negative ones. But even then, in today's social climate especially in a story not focused on LGBT issuse it's just better not to feed into things like "gays as sexual predators" from the start
A lot of other Japanese media like One Piece and One Punch Man have the same stereotype of the effeminate gay man shamelessly hitting on the straight guys. It's a thing for them.
It's both! Yoko Taro games have been pretty LGBT friendly, but he's definitely the exception. There are some fantastic anime out that that have very positive LGBT characters (Wandering Son, Paradise Kiss, etc) but these are also exceptions. While things have been slowly improving, Japan on the whole isn't very understanding about LGBT issues. For every anime or game that has a positive example, there's many more with negative ones.