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[Doytch]

This update better come out this friday, so I can play a bunch during reading week. Cmooooon Valve.

 

[omgimaninja]

Hmm I have a ton of patches to install it seems.

 

[firex]

A sprint thing for the scout would be pretty cool. I kind of think the update overall will add a new mouse2 ability for him. and lol I like that pic where he's being Neo with all the bats.

 

[Doytch]

A sprint thing for the scout would be pretty cool. I kind of think the update overall will add a new mouse2 ability for him. and lol I like that pic where he's being Neo with all the bats.

Ya I sort of expect a sprint ability or something that can let him bypass an sg. If they don't give him something to get past sentries, the update will be a waste probably.

 

[speedpop]

Can you imagine the amount of whining hardcore Engineers will do though? But granted it is practically needed in Payload maps where Scouts are hardly, if ever, a played class. Only thing to get past SGs atm are good Spies and Uber'd Demos.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

Only thing to get past SGs atm are good Spies and Uber'd Demos.

Pyro's and Heavies are also pretty effective against sentries.

 

[Zek]

Scouts shouldn't get anything without trading a weapon, they're already really powerful in the right maps, i.e. Badlands, Well, etc. They just need a situational improvement for getting past sentries and fighting in crowded maps, which is perfect for the unlockable pistol and scattergun respectively.

 

[Twig]

If you make it so you can't attack while sprinting (similar to cloaking with a spy, but you actually have to "unsprint" fully before you can attack), it wouldn't be that much more powerful. Just a way to get past sentries, nothing more. And of course regular bullets could still kill you.

Also no sprinting while carrying the intelligence or whatever.

Personally I'd like to see cleats that allow wall-jumping or something, in lieu of the standard double-jump.

 

[firex]

it could be a major reflex thing similar to uber where he builds up energy by running around, and then can spend it on a super fast dodge or something. Like mouse2 and the scout will dive so fast that he moves past bullets/rockets enabling him to skip a sentry or a focused minigun, but it'd require a long time to recharge.

or they could just do like someone else said a long time ago in this topic and give him a pistol replacement of a stack of baseballs he can hit that will distract sentries.

edit: and of course doing that quick dodge/dive thing (the way I imagine it, it's like the scout "teleports" a few yards ahead but he teleports by leaving a big cartoony cloud of dust) would make him drop the intel.

 

[Zek]

If you make it so you can't attack while sprinting (similar to cloaking with a spy, but you actually have to "unsprint" fully before you can attack), it wouldn't be that much more powerful. Just a way to get past sentries, nothing more. And of course regular bullets could still kill you.

Also no sprinting while carrying the intelligence or whatever.

It would be way more than just that - faster travel times, easier escapes, easier getting behind people, etc. I don't really think Scouts need to be any faster but if they were they should definitely lose at least the pistol.

 

[Big-E]

Pyro's and Heavies are also pretty effective against sentries.

Unless you have retarded medics.

 

[Twig]

It would be way more than just that - faster travel times, easier escapes, easier getting behind people, etc. I don't really think Scouts need to be any faster but if they were they should definitely lose at least the pistol.

If something like this were put in, it's not like it would last as long as a spy cloak lasts. Maybe like 5 seconds max. Enough to get by a sentry. Nothing more. Maybe less.

It wouldn't make a huge difference.

 

[Azure Dream]

If something like this were put in, it's not like it would last as long as a spy cloak lasts. Maybe like 5 seconds max. Enough to get by a sentry. Nothing more. Maybe less.

It wouldn't make a huge difference.

It would mean lots of ninja capping control points. Some of them capture too quickly, especially at a Scout's 2x Capture rate. You would have to keep a person standing on the point at all times on some maps.

 

[Gully State]

I've been putting in a lot more time as a demo lately and while I've gotten better playing demo, my aim has exponentially gotten better as soldier right after I switch from demo. Anyone else experiencing this?

 

[Hazaro]

Ya I sort of expect a sprint ability or something that can let him bypass an sg. If they don't give him something to get past sentries, the update will be a waste probably.

Exactly, that's the whole point of it. It's only for crossing certain poitns that the scout couldn't cross before.

Can you imagine the amount of whining hardcore Engineers will do though? But granted it is practically needed in Payload maps where Scouts are hardly, if ever, a played class. Only thing to get past SGs atm are good Spies and Uber'd Demos.

How so? A Scout will almost never take down a level 3 + engie + level 3 dispenser next to him. The only thing possible I would see is if a Scout sprinted behind the engie having it kill him. :lol

Scouts shouldn't get anything without trading a weapon, they're already really powerful in the right maps, i.e. Badlands, Well, etc. They just need a situational improvement for getting past sentries and fighting in crowded maps, which is perfect for the unlockable pistol and scattergun respectively.

It would be way more than just that - faster travel times, easier escapes, easier getting behind people, etc. I don't really think Scouts need to be any faster but if they were they should definitely lose at least the pistol.

The penalty of using sprint is the cost. A scout with no speed or even no double jump is a horrible class with terrible HP and damage output if it can't dodge. Sprinting would only be used to flee or run past sentries. It's a fair tradeoff.

It would mean lots of ninja capping control points. Some of them capture too quickly, especially at a Scout's 2x Capture rate. You would have to keep a person standing on the point at all times on some maps.

If a Scout can cap the last point quickly you should have someone on it. Additionally it will be easier to get them off because they won't be able to dodge well.

I've been putting in a lot more time as a demo lately and while I've gotten better playing demo, my aim has exponentially gotten better as soldier right after I switch from demo. Anyone else experiencing this?

Yes! It's odd, but it happened to me too.

 

[Twig]

It would mean lots of ninja capping control points. Some of them capture too quickly, especially at a Scout's 2x Capture rate. You would have to keep a person standing on the point at all times on some maps.

But this sort of thing is already in the game. Both scouts and spies do it all the time, unless you're playing against a good team.

The sprint would not be a minute long thing -- not if I had anything to do with it anyway. Short and sweet with a long cooldown.

Maybe even a buildup. Like you have to have a clear runway without taking damage to build up to the highest speed. Maybe damage slows you down bit by bit until you're back to normal, I dunno.

 

[Azure Dream]

But this sort of thing is already in the game. Both scouts and spies do it all the time, unless you're playing against a good team.

The issue is that I can think of two or three maps where a "good" sentry or two covering most entrances can't see into every corner of the actual capture point. Scouts usually can't charge past the sentries. And having one person just stand on the point? That's boring as hell for that person, nobody wants to play paperweight unless things are really tight.

I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, though. Here's even an extra potential angle to it: If a Scout sprints while already on fire, should the flames be extinguished, or burn hotter (take more damage off)?

 

[Zek]

The penalty of using sprint is the cost. A scout with no speed or even no double jump is a horrible class with terrible HP and damage output if it can't dodge. Sprinting would only be used to flee or run past sentries. It's a fair tradeoff.

What cost? Scouts already can't sprint now, you're saying they should be able to. Adding a free ability to the Scout would be a flat out buff, one which they don't need at all in the maps where they're already strong. What they need is a sometimes-buff, i.e. to be stronger in maps like Dustbowl and especially against sentries, without being much stronger anywhere else. I think getting past sentries alone is powerful enough to justify trading out the pistol, let alone all the other stuff a sprint would let you do. So maybe if the pistol replacement were an energy drink or something that let you sprint, that would be one thing, depending on how it's balanced.

 

[Twig]

What cost? Scouts already can't sprint now, you're saying they should be able to. Adding a free ability to the Scout would be a flat out buff, one which they don't need at all in the maps where they're already strong. What they need is a sometimes-buff, i.e. to be stronger in maps like Dustbowl and especially against sentries, without being much stronger anywhere else. I think getting past sentries alone is powerful enough to justify trading out the pistol, let alone all the other stuff a sprint would let you do. So maybe if the pistol replacement were an energy drink or something that let you sprint, that would be one thing, depending on how it's balanced.

I should say that I don't really disagree with making it an unlockable "weapon". That would be fine, as far as I'm concerned.

But I don't think it'd be nearly as powerful as you seem to think. At all. It's not like if they get past a sentry they're all of a sudden home free. They've still got the actual engineer to worry about, on top of anyone else on the other team possibly hiding near the sentry, etc.

Just like it is now.

 

[speedpop]

I've been putting in a lot more time as a demo lately and while I've gotten better playing demo, my aim has exponentially gotten better as soldier right after I switch from demo. Anyone else experiencing this?

I've noticed that I've gotten a lot better in aiming since I've been doing the Heavy rounds.

 

[Zek]

I should say that I don't really disagree with making it an unlockable "weapon". That would be fine, as far as I'm concerned.

But I don't think it'd be nearly as powerful as you seem to think. At all. It's not like if they get past a sentry they're all of a sudden home free. They've still got the actual engineer to worry about, on top of anyone else on the other team possibly hiding near the sentry, etc.

Just like it is now.

Maybe if there were a law that you could only use it to run past sentries that would be fine. But in reality whenever there isn't a problematic sentry, Scouts would use it however they please. They would use it all the time to escape or to close the gap on somebody before firing.

 

[Hazaro]

Maybe if there were a law that you could only use it to run past sentries that would be fine. But in reality whenever there isn't a problematic sentry, Scouts would use it however they please. They would use it all the time to escape or to close the gap on somebody before firing.

You would NOT use it to close the gap on someone unless it was a sniper, even then you already have the upper hand if they are not fully charged.

You lose the scouts only asset which is his speed. If you can't dodge then it's pointless.

It's usage is very situational and the class does need a buff on some maps to be more useful. It's not a huge game changer because of the drawback of using it and Scout is already the fastest class.

I'm a pretty good scout and enjoy playing the class, but it's impossible to play on some matchups.

 

[Alaskanbullworm]

How about the Scout uses a baseball and throw/hit it at the sentry will throw it off kilter (and an engineer can easly fix it up like if it were a sapper hitting it) for a few seconds for the Scout to pass?

I dunno, I'm tired.

 

[Hazaro]

How about the Scout uses a baseball and throw/hit it at the sentry will throw it off kilter (and an engineer can easly fix it up like if it were a sapper hitting it) for a few seconds for the Scout to pass?

I dunno, I'm tired.

No since they don't want something to disrupt the sentry.
It's a hard counter to scout and they still want it that way. The sprint is even a stretch because Scout is vulnerable afterwards.

Plus it's been posted about 80 times on the TF2 forums along with a nailbat, gun that crits while capping, and a nailgun.

 

[Twig]

Maybe if there were a law that you could only use it to run past sentries that would be fine. But in reality whenever there isn't a problematic sentry, Scouts would use it however they please. They would use it all the time to escape or to close the gap on somebody before firing.

Wait, so.

It's too powerful to allow a scout to run past a sentry unharmed even though there are other players.

It's too powerful to allow a scout to run really fast by people without being able to shoot.

What?

Sounds to me like you're completely ignoring the penalty(ies?) of our proposed sprint ability.

 

[Fox318]

 

[Zek]

Wait, so.

It's too powerful to allow a scout to run past a sentry unharmed even though there are other players.

It's too powerful to allow a scout to run really fast by people without being able to shoot.

What?

Sounds to me like you're completely ignoring the penalty(ies?) of our proposed sprint ability.

It's too powerful to be a free ability, yes. It doesn't matter if it has a speed penalty, it would still be worth using all the time which means it's a net buff to a class that only needs it sometimes. The scout is an extremely powerful class already, what they need is a situational buff in certain maps. That's why there has to be an actual tradeoff, i.e. losing the pistol.

 

[Gully State]

I liked the baseball idea (replaces the pistol). But instead of throwing it at sentry, turn it into a decoy. It has all the properties of another character to the sentry. so if the baseball is further away from the sentry than the scout it, the sentry will plug the scout still (which makes how one throws it important) . Once the ball is destroyed or it hits the ground, it no longer functions as a decoy. Also make it such that it can't be spammed (perhaps give it a cooldown).

 

[Hazaro]

I liked the baseball idea (replaces the pistol). But instead of throwing it at sentry, turn it into a decoy. It has all the properties of another character to the sentry. so if the baseball is further away from the sentry than the scout it, the sentry will plug the scout still (which makes how one throws it important) . Once the ball is destroyed or it hits the ground, it no longer functions as a decoy. Also make it such that it can't be spammed (perhaps give it a cooldown).

Could allow others to kill the sentry which is a very big no-no.
They want the Sentry to be a hard counter to the Scout, I said that before and the Sprint ability is still a stretch on that since it has negatives.

 

[Twig]

it would still be worth using all the time.

What.

"It's always worth throwing away your weapon so you can run faster!"

 

[Zek]

What.

"It's always worth throwing away your weapon so you can run faster!"

All the time as in, very frequently. I would use it every single time an ambush goes bad and I want to escape. Who cares about a brief speed penalty, it beats dying. I would probably also use it to catch up with people who are hurt and trying to escape, or who are a ways ahead of me running towards the fight.

 

[Twig]

All the time as in, very frequently. I would use it every single time an ambush goes bad and I want to escape. Who cares about a brief speed penalty, it beats dying. I would probably also use it to catch up with people who are hurt and trying to escape, or who are a ways ahead of me running towards the fight.

Look, the point is scout is already overpowered so another boost won't make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Proven]

Look, the point is scout is already overpowered so another boost won't make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

That's a very stupid way to justify a change.

 

[KittenMaster]

Sentries counter the Scout. The scout should be able to win fights, otherwise he'll suck like he did in TFC.

If the updates are like pretty much any other update, they'll be extremely minor and often times not worth using over default weapons.

 

[Proven]

Honestly, I'm for a buff for Scouts vs. Sentries, if only to help deal with people turtling with 5 engineers and your team only having enough coordination for one Uber pair. Sentries will be weakened, but Engineers have gained depth from their other buildings having level ups, the game will grow overall faster and stalemate less, and it increases the chance of the Engineer update (looking forward to most not because it's my favorite class, but because it'll be the most interesting to tinker with if they change the buildings rather than the weapons) coming before this year is out.

 

[KittenMaster]

Indeed. Scouts want options against sentries, and these weapons to help against them will probably somehow suck against humans.

 

[Hazaro]

Honestly, I'm for a buff for Scouts vs. Sentries, if only to help deal with people turtling with 5 engineers and your team only having enough coordination for one Uber pair.

So damn true. I'd take them all out as demo except they have 3 snipers :|

I mean really. This is hard to get past. Esp if there's a pyro or demo who can actually do something to ubers.

 

[Zek]

Sentries counter the Scout. The scout should be able to win fights, otherwise he'll suck like he did in TFC.

If the updates are like pretty much any other update, they'll be extremely minor and often times not worth using over default weapons.

Until now the only updated class that actually had serious design issues that needed addressing was the Pyro, and they got a major class-defining buff even though their unlocks aren't great(axtinguisher aside). Medics had no balance issues, they just needed a little something extra to get people to play them, and Heavies only needed a little less Medic dependency. Compared to those two, the Scout has a really serious problem, sometimes more serious than the Pyro's - they are completely useless on all the most popular maps in the game. Since they're just fine on other maps I think the issue will be addressed through the unlocks, and if they gained new weapons that made them a useful class on Dustbowl or Goldrush that would be a big deal.

 

[firex]

Are scouts bad on Badwater? I haven't played that map in awhile but I remember it being pretty good for everyone, really.

 

[Twig]

That's a very stupid way to justify a change.

Mhm. Lawl.

...

I like how it's all black and white. Scout is either completely useless or overpowered.

Just sayin'.

 

[Zek]

Are scouts bad on Badwater? I haven't played that map in awhile but I remember it being pretty good for everyone, really.

They're bad on offense because the defense always has turrets. On defense they're playable, but the map is pretty crowded anyway past the first point which makes their life very difficult.

 

[Hazaro]

Are scouts bad on Badwater? I haven't played that map in awhile but I remember it being pretty good for everyone, really.

A: Great
B: Pretty good on the back area
C: Great if no sentry (obviously)
D: Pretty bad

 

[Cheeto]

I have no problem playing scout on Payload maps. They are great for moving the cart on offense, and defense they can be very mobile because offense usually doesn't put up sentries. Generally, you can put the cart between you can the sentry and push the cart for awhile.

 

[Sciz]

Java and Pillow and fallen and Volc and Potatoe and MicVlaD and I are still playing.

Where are the rest of you people? We used to be able to pack an entire server with gaffers. D:

 

[Twig]

Java and Pillow and fallen and Volc and Potatoe and MicVlaD and I are still playing.

Where are the rest of you people? We used to be able to pack an entire server with gaffers. D:

There's no more GAF server. ):

I personally hate waiting to join servers so half the time I don't even bother when I see people playing. Even though I want to.

 

[speedpop]

Had an intense game of Control Point earlier tonight. On defense and our first cap went up pretty quickly, Engi's weren't pulling their weight with the sentries. It was literally wave after wave of Blu smacking us on the final CP and everyone cowering at our doors at the spawn, twice I had to uber myself to try and stop it and grabbed the nearest person available - sniper, pyro, whatever. Was certain we'd lose after the 2nd uber and then someone on voices goes "weee 12 more mins left of this".

10 mins to go, for some reason everyone just picked up their game. Heavy's rotated in the middle CP, some standing in front of sentries being built to protect them from rockets, all under a constant barrage of at least 5 Demo's smacking us. Got an uber ready to hit up, grabbed the nearest Pyro at a good chance and went to town. Blu was just standing around the corner all bunched up getting ready for their own onslaught and we mowed them down within 5 seconds.

Pushed them all the way back to the first CP and held them there for when the countdown went. It was so epic.

 

[Sciz]

The exact inverse of a W+M1 Pyro.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

Java and Pillow and fallen and Volc and Potatoe and MicVlaD and I are still playing.

Where are the rest of you people? We used to be able to pack an entire server with gaffers. D:

"Still playing" would be somewhat of an understatement in my case:

Spoiler

Total playtime: approximately 650 hours on PC + 150 hours on Xbox 360.

The exact inverse of a W+M1 Pyro.

I'd take the Flare Gun over the shotgun any day of the week.

 

[Hazaro]

I didn't expect myself to enjoy this, but recently I've been playing on the 3-PG server that has 100% crits that do 2x damage (so 66% of crit damage) and just rotates interesting maps.

67.18.130.18:27015
3-PG.com CRAZY! [100%-2x Crits!,FUN MODS!!]

In addition here's the normal pl_cashworks_b2 server I usually play on.
72.232.197.29:27015

pl_waste, pl_cashworks, pl_tug_of_war_2 (?) and a few other things as well.

Grenades (after 5 kills), medic AOE heal, fast uber charges (It's fun to play medic now!), medic "bubbles" that you can deploy that block all incoming and outgoing damage for 3-10 seconds (depending on uber %). Engies hit for 200 metal, 1 sec teleports, snipers charge in 0.2 seconds and some tweaks to each class.



Another plus to the server is that out of 20 people only about 2 are usually snipers sometimes none.

This is what I was talking about on cashworks, it was insane to get past we probably needed 3 coordinated ubers and 3 spies sapping.

A little fun on goldrush :lol

I love Scout

This map is so horrible it's not even funny.

Another new map for me, great fun with all the 3-PG server mods.

The exact inverse of a W+M1 Pyro.

Great video I don't know why I never thought of flaring them then blasting them up right after. I still suck at airblasting and most pyros do also when I play soldier. You just need really good reflexes or predicting when the next rocket is coming.

 

[ice cream]

Thanks for that post Hazaro. I'm def gonna add that server, looks hella fun.