DJ Crimson
Banned
Yea
-
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Team Fortress 2 |OT4| Official Halo Thread of Polearms and High Fashion
- Thread starter Yeef
- Start date
Yes, the demo with stock weaponry is pretty much more powerful than any other class. Having something even more effective would be madness.
And why wouldn't spies just go through the fire to stab the heavy? Even if the spy dies, it's worth the sacrifice to kill the target. Or is the on-fire sound so loud that the heavy would hear it over the sound of the gun firing?
Nonsense, let's be reasonable. The way people talk, heavy is so powerful that there's no way it could be shut down by a mere heavy.
And you play scout! Scout is pretty much one of the most annoying, hardest to hit classes! Everyone hates scouts! They're like the roaches of the TF2 world, and yet you probably want them to be effective!
Anyone thinking the heavy has no weaknesses is nuts and needs to play heavy for a few days. Good demos can destroy you. Good soldiers can destroy you. Pyros can destroy you. Good spies can destroy you. The GRU is terrible now since other heavies will destroy you, unless it's a long map in which case you should be taking a teleporter anyway. Headshots and backstabs both still work on heavy, and have always worked on heavy. Or, maybe none of these things work on heavy and I am just terrible (probably the correct answer).
You people are even more complainy than me, and surely we all believed that was impossible!
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
Groucho glasses?! Eh... I was going to get Sleeping Dogs anyway.
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
Quick, to change.org!
What if you gift the game, who gets the items?
Grimm Fandango
Member
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
I see no conceivable reason spy should be PENALIZED for doing his job, and succeeding at it. Regardless of whether the sacrifice is worth it, there is no justifiable reason any sacrifice should exist in the first place.
Except how hard a scout is to hit is directly related to how skilled the player is. His inherent strengths are his run speed and double jump. His primary is nothing more than a slightly-buffed shotgun. Without the knowledge and skill, he's just a faster engineer who doesn't know how to use the PDA. The heavy has 300 health, and his primary is one of only two fully-automatic weapon types in the game (the other just being the smg), with by far the highest damage of any weapon. The heavy's inherent strengths are simply so much better that he will always be more effective being used by an inexperienced player than a scout used by the same inexperienced player will be. That is, heavy is much more accessible. It takes less to do more with heavy just because his inherent strengths are so effective. A low-level scout will be destroyed by everything short of bad demomen, because his inherent strengths only take him so far without skill to back them up.
And while I don't want Valve to make scout, or any class, more "accessible," what have they done to do so? The closest they've come is the Milkman set, which still sacrifices power and capacity for survivability. What has Valve done to make the heavy more accessible? What HAVEN'T they done? First it was Natasha. The heavy's main skill, tracking opponents, and that's mitigated, because he can now slow people down. Then they decided heavy needed too many teammates to be effective, in a game called Team Fortress 2, and so they buffed his movement and spinup speed by 25%. Apparently this wasn't enough either, so they brought in the Tomislav. This gun was one of the most heinous, poorly thought-out weapons since the original Backburner. 75% faster spinup. Almost instant, it was an assault rifle, not a minigun. This was the biggest warning sign that Valve had lost any self-control. Heavy's slowness is his main disadvantage, the only thing keeping him from breaking TF2 in half like a wooden bat over Bo Jackson's knee, and Valve just completely disregards it. It doesn't even matter that it sacrificed damage, because it spun up faster, giving him a direct buff against all 125 hp classes. It rewarded inattentive heavies and discouraged smart tactics like ambushing the heavy, because you would now get killed for taking advantage of the heavy's weakness, which no longer existed.
The only class who could take advantage of the Tomislav's downside was, guess who, heavy. Valve apparently saw no problem in releasing a weapon that gave heavy a direct buff against nearly every single class in the game, further propagating the need to use heavies to counter heavies. Snipers and spies don't beat heavies because every class "beats" snipers and spies. A heavy does the work of 5 team members, each sniper and spy can only do a very specific job, and especially in spy's case, not with exceptional efficiency. And after so many months, Tomislav was finally nerfed all the way down to 10% faster spinup speed. A 65% change in the statistics of a weapon. That is how badly Valve screwed up. But did they learn their lesson?
No, of course not. Gosh, I hate being killed by those pesky spies! If only there was some way to rotate my view, and periodically check behind me, but that's absurd! So now there's a weapon that PUNISHES THE SPY FOR DOING HIS JOB. Are you kidding me? The class who takes the least effort to be effective, and his spatial awareness, one of the only things he has to worry about, turning around, actually playing the game and having any clue what he's doing, is now hardly an issue, and he is now REWARDED just for holding down a single button, at the absolutely meager cost of using more ammo? That is ludicrous. There's nothing else to describe it. There is absolutely no reason, ever, anywhere at all, that heavy should be rewarded just for existing, and punish the spy, who is supposed to be his COUNTER. This would be like if the Spycicle was buffed to deal damage to the pyro every time he sets a spy on fire. This "soft counter to counters" has been getting progressively stupider, but this just shows a complete negligence, a complete disconnect from Valve and the people who actually play the game. Even if the gun were worthless, this gun would still be one of the worst offenders ever added by concept alone.
Like anybody hasn't played heavy for a few days. I've played heavy 60 hours across every "era" of TF2 and he is stronger and more annoying than he has ever been even with all the new options the classes have. Good soldiers won't destroy you because a heavy outdamages soldier and being a combo mitigates the damage done by soldier while he reloads. So even if the soldier isn't taking any damage himself, he won't be able to kill the heavy as long as there's a medic. Demoman can, but that's because he's demoman and can do anything as long as long as it doesn't involve killing scouts. Pyro will never destroy you, a combo is one of pyro's hard counters. Good spies won't destroy you because that relies entirely on how aware you are, how coordinated your team is, how open or cramped the area of the map is, and a dozen other factors that will kill spies. Spy isn't a very efficient counter mainly due to him needing to be close to the other team, so he has to travel and still might die without the heavy even knowing there was ever a spy. The class that everybody needs to play for a couple days is spy. Revolver and invis watch, no Dead Ringer. Then we'll see if they manage to keep telling themselves that somewhere out there, maybe in their imagination, there exists a spy who is "good enough" to counter all of the misfortunes he will inevitably encounter, who never misses a stab, who always counters the heavy on time, and who never gets killed by spam or pyros.
The point is, the flamethrower minigun is inexcusable and should be scrapped immediately.
Why don't we play one attack and one defense round of Hoodoo instead of the six total rounds? It ends up taking about forty minutes and pretty much every map is the same, wi h mildly varying sentry spots. It usually takes longer than Hightower! It's a chance of pace from faster paced maps, but six of them in a row is too much.
The new Sapper bug is pretty hilarious, making a wrangled sentry practically invincible. I like the idea of level dropping, seems like a good counter for the Wrangler, quickly weakening it and putting the nest under the pressure of a combined push. The times should be tweaked though, making it take a bit longer to drop levels to give Engies more of a chance.
Curious how wide the Heavy's AOE is in practice. Do the hitboxes extend a little past the particles, stop at the last flicker, or have a more confined radius?
The new Sapper bug is pretty hilarious, making a wrangled sentry practically invincible. I like the idea of level dropping, seems like a good counter for the Wrangler, quickly weakening it and putting the nest under the pressure of a combined push. The times should be tweaked though, making it take a bit longer to drop levels to give Engies more of a chance.
Curious how wide the Heavy's AOE is in practice. Do the hitboxes extend a little past the particles, stop at the last flicker, or have a more confined radius?
Professor Beef
Banned
Relax. It'll get nerfed because plenty of people are going to complain just like you're doing now, and it'll get something like a 50% damage nerf.
Cloudius12
Member
The person who you gifted to.
This is correct.
You have to have the game in your library to get the items. You can't buy the game and sell it to someone else to get the items.
The new map looks like the secret Soho screenshots we've been shown. Soho is probably a secret CODE NAME.
And no one knows what Toho/Touhou is.
I know that Toho is the Japanese company that makes Godzilla movies, though I have no idea what Touhou is.
This looks like a nice little update. I really like the fact we're also getting a map with this update, little content packs like this have never included maps in the past (besides the community map pack of course) so it gives me hope we'll see even more maps in updates like this.
Now I need to craft the weapons.
afreaknamedpete
Member
At this rate I wish every new pyro weapon was just an axtinguisher reskin, since the new sign looks awesome but is totally useless. Who the hell thought that letting the pyro, who sets people on FIRE, punish wet people was a good idea? Valve has to stop wasting great designs on weapons no one will ever use.
Jeez, GW2 had a stress test, and after four awesome hours I ate dinner and went to sleep. While I'm asleep, there's a TF2 update? Really?
As for the new Heavy minigun, it'll probably be nerfed, but I can't help but give my same two cents about the Heavy that I usually do:
Heavy is overall one of the weaker classes. Is he most accessible? Yeah. Has he gotten a lot of passive buffs, yeah? Do you get more for your experience with him than the other classes? Yeah. But his skill ceiling is also the lowest. His potential is stunted, as he's a class about passives while every other class wins with actives. People are generally frustrated by the amount of skill difference in Heavy vs. other class fights, but when you take out the skill factor you're left with the Heavy being the most weak AND boring class to play. Which is why they give him buffs, to try and make him more fun to play and not get as ripped apart when played against higher level players, as they would like TF2 players to find the Heavy useful to use as a tool at all levels of play.
Optimally, you balance a game considering both skill and use. But TF2 wasn't designed the very best, and the Heavy even more so. The choices were either to let the Heavy suck forever, in which case he'd only be used in lower level play, or buff him so that the lower level of play may get screwed around a bit, but the higher level of play find a use for him. Was it the right choice? Most people would say no.
As for the new Pyro weapon, wouldn't it work against people coming out of water, AND JARATE!?
This. This is good.
As for the new Heavy minigun, it'll probably be nerfed, but I can't help but give my same two cents about the Heavy that I usually do:
Heavy is overall one of the weaker classes. Is he most accessible? Yeah. Has he gotten a lot of passive buffs, yeah? Do you get more for your experience with him than the other classes? Yeah. But his skill ceiling is also the lowest. His potential is stunted, as he's a class about passives while every other class wins with actives. People are generally frustrated by the amount of skill difference in Heavy vs. other class fights, but when you take out the skill factor you're left with the Heavy being the most weak AND boring class to play. Which is why they give him buffs, to try and make him more fun to play and not get as ripped apart when played against higher level players, as they would like TF2 players to find the Heavy useful to use as a tool at all levels of play.
Optimally, you balance a game considering both skill and use. But TF2 wasn't designed the very best, and the Heavy even more so. The choices were either to let the Heavy suck forever, in which case he'd only be used in lower level play, or buff him so that the lower level of play may get screwed around a bit, but the higher level of play find a use for him. Was it the right choice? Most people would say no.
As for the new Pyro weapon, wouldn't it work against people coming out of water, AND JARATE!?
This. This is good.
I can kinda see the idea behind it, that you get this upperhand as an enemy tries to put themself out. It's just too situational since friendly jarate/milk don't make them wet and closing the gap underwater is pretty dumb as a Pyro.
If you're a flaregun Pyro who likes to chase enemies underwater, it's good I guess?
Shibby doing a test of the new Spy sapper.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blqvt995_2M
So, I can imagine how a bug came out that allows for obscenely high HP sentries. The Tape Recorder seems to mostly be a counter to the Engy getting the ability to level up his buildings, but terrible at destroying level 1 buildings themselves. It's useful enough against level 3's that you'd carry this on offense, but because it "deconstructs" instead of damaging mini-sentries it's extremely weak against them. Still, you would screw over their teleporters to a degree.
Jarate and Milk doesn't count? This needs a buff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blqvt995_2M
So, I can imagine how a bug came out that allows for obscenely high HP sentries. The Tape Recorder seems to mostly be a counter to the Engy getting the ability to level up his buildings, but terrible at destroying level 1 buildings themselves. It's useful enough against level 3's that you'd carry this on offense, but because it "deconstructs" instead of damaging mini-sentries it's extremely weak against them. Still, you would screw over their teleporters to a degree.
Jarate and Milk doesn't count? This needs a buff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQR3t2EGyek video from STAR.
He doesn't showcase it in the video, but in the description he says that it does work on Milk/Jarate. So there you go, a soft buff for Milk.
An even better buff would be if teammates you extinguish with Milk or Jarate counted as wet for a few seconds, even if they don't have the animation on them. Or they change it so that allies get the animation, but enemies get the animation and gain a more distinctly colored green-yellow tint or white tint.
He doesn't showcase it in the video, but in the description he says that it does work on Milk/Jarate. So there you go, a soft buff for Milk.
I was assuming before that when a character comes out of water, and has the "water drops falling off of them" animation, they're considered wet. You get that same animation when you're covered by Milk or Jarate, just colored white or yellow instead of the light blue for water.
An even better buff would be if teammates you extinguish with Milk or Jarate counted as wet for a few seconds, even if they don't have the animation on them. Or they change it so that allies get the animation, but enemies get the animation and gain a more distinctly colored green-yellow tint or white tint.
afreaknamedpete
Member
Underwater combat is probably the only advantage of the new melee weapon. I suppose you can trick people into jumping into water by setting them on fire - then charging in w/ the melee when they think they're safe. In hindsight that might be what the devs are going for... but this is only good if you play some kinda camper-shark hybrid pyro. But if you wanna fight underwater, might as well pack a shotgun....
If the wiki is any indication, Jarate and Milk both count as "wet".
Oh. Yes. Yes. Yes. http://feedback.majorleaguegaming.com/forums/116515-pro-circuit-feedback-forum
Vote for what you want to see in MLG. You get 10 votes, and can put up to 3 in one category.
I put 3 into TF2 6v6, 3 into TF2 Highlander, 3 into Guild Wars 2, and then I was stuck choosing the last point between Tribes Ascend and free HD streams. I ended up choosing Tribes as if two of the other three get in, then I'll pay for an HD stream and have some friends over to watch.
Anyway, go vote!
Vote for what you want to see in MLG. You get 10 votes, and can put up to 3 in one category.
I put 3 into TF2 6v6, 3 into TF2 Highlander, 3 into Guild Wars 2, and then I was stuck choosing the last point between Tribes Ascend and free HD streams. I ended up choosing Tribes as if two of the other three get in, then I'll pay for an HD stream and have some friends over to watch.
Anyway, go vote!
Cloudius12
Member
Wow, didn't expect that. Voted of course.
I hate that Red Tape Recorder so god damn much. While it takes longer to outright destroy the buildings, it levels them down so god damn fast. If you're not on the top of your game it will ruin your nest. While normally it'll only take a few hits to repair your sentry or dispenser, having to level it up again is a real pain in the ass. I can see this being a real pain for non-combat engies.
Haven't got my own hands on it though. Seems good for pushing the cart against multiple sentries. It'll take much longer to get them back up to level 3 than it would just to remove standard sappers.
Haven't got my own hands on it though. Seems good for pushing the cart against multiple sentries. It'll take much longer to get them back up to level 3 than it would just to remove standard sappers.
RumblingRosco
Member
I forgot to save the replay, but even better than that, I got a kill on a Scout with BB last night after I had loaded three rockets; he bonked me before I released the button, but being bonked still causes them to fire similar to the taunt. It was glorious.
Never knew the Red Tape Recorder could crash servers, ahahahaha.
SteveWinwood
Member
Anything that makes an engy's life harder makes SteveWinwood a happy person.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
The new craft recipes are so bad.
Edit: fuck off winwood, engineer 4 lyfe. We deserve more stuff, not being shat upon.
Edit: fuck off winwood, engineer 4 lyfe. We deserve more stuff, not being shat upon.
ArtistDude88
Member
So... Keep Red Tape Recording lvl3 sentries and keep building them up = our first MVM boss?
SteveWinwood
Member
Ouch. That hurts.
UnluckyKate
Member
Really tempted by these Sleeping Dogs items. Some looks cool as fuck. Also that new maps... Modders should get this chinatown / neon style into TF2 ! That's a really nice change of art.
Obviously, these items are too much of gameplay updates to stay exclusive too long? same for that new map right ?
Obviously, these items are too much of gameplay updates to stay exclusive too long? same for that new map right ?
To be fair it's kind of hard to create useful weapons for a useless class.
You can already craft them. They'll probably be applied to the drop tables when the game releases, if they aren't already.
Someone's bitter about reflected critrockets!
The new Sapper seems to deal more with Wrangler, which is a move I'm much in favor of. The added switch time means your sentry will probably be develed at least to a Level 2.
If you have the Wrangler and are in a good position its very easy to kill or force a retreat before Spies can even get in range. If you're using the dreaded Pomson its even easier to take out Spies: their Dead Ringer is useless.
Last night on Hoodoo Java was wrangling his Sentry while some other Engie spammed the Pomson. I think Snake got in range once, barely managing a delevel. We couldn't sustain an uber, and they easily held.
If you have the Wrangler and are in a good position its very easy to kill or force a retreat before Spies can even get in range. If you're using the dreaded Pomson its even easier to take out Spies: their Dead Ringer is useless.
Last night on Hoodoo Java was wrangling his Sentry while some other Engie spammed the Pomson. I think Snake got in range once, barely managing a delevel. We couldn't sustain an uber, and they easily held.
It delevels the sentry, but doesn't decrease it's health. It'll do less damage, but it still will take forever go down.
Edit: Proven if my wrangled sentry gets sapped I have to pull my wrench out to hit it, which means the shield goes away and the sentry stops firing.
I want a boobytrapped, dummy building I can build that goes KA-BOOM and explodes when someone tries to sap it.
I want a boobytrapped, dummy building I can build that goes KA-BOOM and explodes when someone tries to sap it.
Pretty sure that's a bug, and why the super sentries are possible. I'm assuming once its fixed the sentry will revert to level 2 or level 1 health once the sapper is removed, while still taking twice as long to kill.
There's also a bug with the Heavy Heatmaker where it only counts the ammo the AOE spell uses and not the normal ammo lost from firing, so you actually use LESS ammo than the other Miniguns.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
*Get a new hat!!*
*It's a bombing run*
Why are my drops so disgusting.
*It's a bombing run*
Why are my drops so disgusting.
Yep, but in that case there'd still be a spy running around, either backstabbing you or sapping your other buildings in your base.
ZekeThePlumber
Member
I shot 40 direct hit rockets into that thing and it barely so much as dented it.
We all already know about your impotence. You don't need to shout it from the rooftops.
DJ Crimson
Banned
Yea