Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
I disagree. Jokes like that reinforce harmful stereotypes. Even if doesn't have a direct effect on society, it can encourage negative attitudes towards other groups of people.
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'Ted 2' dogged by claims of racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia
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I disagree. Jokes like that reinforce harmful stereotypes. Even if doesn't have a direct effect on society, it can encourage negative attitudes towards other groups of people.
There is tons of comedy that is just bad in general, offensive or not. Sounds like that's the case with Ted 2 and it just so happens to also be offensive
Seeing violence can encourage it as well. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have violent storytelling
Saying things like that is slippery slope. You'd start banning everything that isn't providing utopian views
Seeing violence can encourage it as well. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have violent storytelling
Saying things like that is slippery slope. You'd start banning everything that isn't providing utopian views
Gotdatmoney
Member
Big black dicks on the internet is about the least of the harmful stereotypes I see facing the black community. Of all the racist, harmful shit I have heard in my life as a black man, that is about the least relevant thing I can think of tbh. Not that I disagree with the idea that jokes enforcing harmful stereotypes have issues but that big black dicks is not all that harmful.
March of the Crabs
Member
I know you're PROBABLY kidding but just to be clear, right after Ted compares himself to Kunta Kinte, Mark Wahlberg tells him how wrong and messed up that is.
shadowsdarknes
Member
This makes me want to see it more.
Simpsonology
Neo Member
I know, but I don't think people who are trans etc... are going to go and watch Ted. They know what kind of humor to expect from the creator of Family Guy, a show in which nothing is excluded from making joke of. Psychiatrist, family, friends... those are the people and institutions people should go to, to help them with their depression and anxiety. I don't think banning comedy that offends someone is helping the cause at all.
As for second part, I agree that comedy and jokes are not protected from criticism. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Ted is a genius comedy movie, while I did enjoyed watching it, but I get why some people might not find it funny. But do we really need to go and put the labels on it or ban it because we don't find it funny or it offends us personally? Just don't pay money for it and market will show if these kind of movies are not welcome anymore. But the market says otherwise, as first Ted was a financial success, and this one will probably follow it too.
I was replying to the quoted post, where member mention that White Chicks cannot be used as an argument in discussion about race (at least that's how I understood it), so I just added that the same can be applied to Ted.
This is really stupid. We're not banning anything, we're telling people to not be assholes disguised behind the label of a "joke". Is discouraging people from being members of the KKK a slippery slope to banning political ideologies?
People really need to go into life knowing that people feel differently about different things from different back ground, like people. And also the portrayal of those people isn't funny for everyone and people should also accept that. And maybe look inside question what they even find funny. life would be easier
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
No one is saying that anything should be banned. You can say whatever the hell you want. However, we should be free to criticize what is said and push for change if it is harmful to society. Free speech goes both ways, and the people complaining about SJWs ruining comedy don't seem to understand that.
...Scatter...
Banned
Im of the opinion that most everyone in this thread is racist but only sees racism when it affects their people. So if you think White Chicks is hilarious, but you think Ted 2 is racist, then you need to reevaluate. Obviously, judging by your sensitivities you thought White Chicks was racist so you boycotted it right, and have a low opinion of the Wayans brothers just like you do of Seth McFarlane.
I don't excuse racism, I just call bullshit when people only see it when it affects their people.
And people who disagree with your criticism should be allowed to criticize your opinions just as you criticize theirs, and around and around we go.
Gotdatmoney
Member
That's a 0 to 100 conclusion to draw from barely any information. You really are going to have to pull out more justification because that is a pretty absurd conclusion to come to.
It's also very obvious several parts of white chicks are blatantly racist. I dunno how that proves anything either. White chicks came out like a decade ago, people's opinions change.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
I was mostly referring to the drive-by posters that go "lol PC culture" instead of making an argument for their position. You don't have to agree, but you should read through the posts from people with a differing stance on this subject and reevaluate your own opinions. If you still feel the same, that's alright.
I've always felt MacFarlane handled racist jokes rather well. I never felt his shows were trying to get away with anything - the racism was always clearly sarcastic.
The Big Bang Theory by contrast made me uncomfortable. The racist jokes in that show felt like they were trying to force the audience to be okay because we now live in a post-racist culture; and since that's patantly false the jokes just come off as old- fashioned and insulting.
South Park's racism is interesting. I never felt Troy or Matt were racist - far from it - but I do think that it's too easy for viewers to genuinely like Cartman, and thereby revel in his antisenitism. As a teen when the show came out, I'd never heard an antisemitic joke until South Park. Not one. After the show gained popularity, 'Jew' became something to make fun of. Cartman made casual antisemitism cool.
I'm not saying South Park's creators should be ashamed; just that Family Guy's racism is always clearly rooted in dumbfuckishness when it comes from a character, and compatatively harmless shock humour when it's a facet of the show's world.
Just one guy's opinion, but I prefer the way MacFarlane handles racist humour; especially compared to the examples above.
The Big Bang Theory by contrast made me uncomfortable. The racist jokes in that show felt like they were trying to force the audience to be okay because we now live in a post-racist culture; and since that's patantly false the jokes just come off as old- fashioned and insulting.
South Park's racism is interesting. I never felt Troy or Matt were racist - far from it - but I do think that it's too easy for viewers to genuinely like Cartman, and thereby revel in his antisenitism. As a teen when the show came out, I'd never heard an antisemitic joke until South Park. Not one. After the show gained popularity, 'Jew' became something to make fun of. Cartman made casual antisemitism cool.
I'm not saying South Park's creators should be ashamed; just that Family Guy's racism is always clearly rooted in dumbfuckishness when it comes from a character, and compatatively harmless shock humour when it's a facet of the show's world.
Just one guy's opinion, but I prefer the way MacFarlane handles racist humour; especially compared to the examples above.
Gentleman Jack
Member
You misunderstood that post, then.
...Scatter...
Banned
Ultimately it's an opinion, and one drawn after interacting with thousands of people in my life time. I'm perfectly fine with you disagreeing but know that I can't sit here and list interactions I've had as it would be the size of a memoir. Obviously members of GAF are generally more open and educated than the general population so you'll find more exceptions here.
Most of people "complaining" (it's mostly people shitting on Family Guy) are probably white. So the supposed hypocrisy you see isn't really there. It's not fair to call them racist if they don't like dumb jokes. Not to mention it's understandable when people are more sensitive to dumb jokes that use stereotypes about their own race. Especially if they've herd those stupid stereotypes thrown at them their whole lives.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
I think that MacFarlane definitely tries to handle these subjects in an intelligent way, but ultimately fails to do so and resorts to casual racism, homophobia, and transphobia to get laughs.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I wasnt calling you out for saying most people are racist. I was calling you out for saying most people "in this thread" are racist based off a movie that came out 11 years ago.
When that movie came out I was 12 and found it hilarious. I don't find it particularly funny in 2015. It's a terrible example of proving racism is one point I'm trying to make. A lot of shit happens in 11 years.
More over its just a very blatant statement to make in regarda to gaf but people as a whole. Yes most people suck, are most people racist? I dunno how we draw that conclusion. Its a complex issue
I think that's a very reasonable opinion. I completely understand why others don't care for his humour.
Bottom line: comedy is about surprise. Comics surprise audiences by broaching taboo topics. Some do it well, some sound like hacks, and opinions will always be divided. If nothing else, it's always good to see people talk about these issues as we reinforce and redefine social taboos and what we deem broadly acceptable or broadly mean-spirited.
Same. If a large portion of GAF is offended, then the movie has a good chance at being funny & entertaining. I thought Ted was pretty funny.
I still probably won't see Ted 2 in the theater,but definitely check it out on bluray.
Haha what's the point of criticizing it then if you don't want them to stop? I know you aren't calling for a government ban or anything, but obviously your criticism is leading to the same call: stop making content like this.
Criticizing this is literally the same thing as other people criticizing gta for glorifying violence. That's why the slope is slippery. Sure your free to criticize it. And I'm free to criticize your criticism. The conclusion that listening to offensive jokes breeds or encourages offensive views or behavior is identical to the conclusion that seeing violent media makes you violent. It doesn't, and criticizing them for having this content is weak IMO.
...Scatter...
Banned
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Here are some examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFeNLEnV8r4
This is of course if he truly signs off on every script.
This reminds me I gotta start watching Family Guy again.
paperboywriter
Member
Please be offended
MHWilliams
Member
Because I was asleep or busy?
White Chicks is a Wayans Brothers movie. Same low-brow humor as MacFarlane. So yeah, it probably dips into racist jokes. Otherwise, I've never seen it, because it's a Wayans Brothers film and I prefer great comedy, not trash.
I know you think you delivered some amazing blow, but perhaps you should pick a better example, because the one you've got has no legs.
Well, then I guess we should pack up shop here on this forum, because not many here are creators. That statement is an attempt to shut down conversation in the worst way, because you know it prevents you from giving feedback and criticism to things as well.
You can laugh about whatever you want. I frankly don't care. Why don't you extend the courtesy to others?
For the last time:
These are professional critics, paid to watch and review the film. They are allowed and pushed to give their honest accounting of the film. This is not outrage. This is criticism.
Even if they weren't, people are allowed to say what they want about entertainment. That's speech. They're allowed to feel that some works is good, bad, sexist, racist, transphobic, feminist, and whatever else. They're allowed to write on blogs, make articles, put together videos, and release that criticism in whatever form they want. They're allowed to make cogent arguments why they feel the way they do. A creator is allowed to see feedback and ignore it or listen to it.
And you can disagree and make your own arguments.
But what's shaking the cognitive dissonance tree is saying these people can't say whatever they want to say, because you want to "protect" comedy or something. If you want to be about free speech, fucking be about it. That includes people being able to say "I don't like this and I wish less of this was made". Framing it as censorship and a "slippery slope" points towards your actual aim: "Please stop saying bad things about that thing I like."
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
MHWilliams said:
so you're kind of saying you want something banned because you don't like it or because it offends you?
i think this whole conversation just goes around and around. comedy should be protected, it's free speech!
well i should be able to speak my opinion about that comedy!
well i should be able to speak my opinion on your opinion about comedy!
well i should be able to disagree with your opinion of my opinion about comedy!
its kind of a pointless argument in a way. i guess if you are offended by a standup comedian or show you can speak your peace and never watch that show/comedian again but i can't agree with wanting something to be censored or taken off the air or whatever because you dislike it
MHWilliams
Member
Nope.
Welcome to the world of commercial art.
Let's walk through it.
Ted or any other film, TV show, or album is at the same time a work of art and a product to be sold. As such, like any product - and people forget design engineers are frequently as creative as writers or directors - you as the consumer can tell the creator and publisher, "Ah, I do not like this product, I wish you would make more of another product."
Example: "I do not like DmC. I would rather you made more Devil May Cry."
Example B: "I do not like Michael Bay's Transformers. The story is middling, the action is confusing, and the jokes are occasionally racist. I wish you made more films that weren't like that."
That's not banning. That's not censorship. That's you as a consumer providing feedback and criticism. The creator/producer can tell decide what to do with that information. Sometimes they listen (here's a new ending for Mass Effect 3!), sometimes they don't (Sorry, you liked the old Tomb Raider, but here's Rise of the Tomb Raider!).
That's how commercial art works.
Of course it can go on forever. Speech into infinity! That's the system working as intended.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
i have literally never said something like "transformers sucked because of X, Y and Z. i wish michael bay would make a movie like inglorious bastards". instead, it would be "transformers sucked because of X, Y and Z. i'm never going to watch another shitty transformers movie again". i would never think to say "holy fuck transformers sucked dick i hope they never make another one so no one ever has to suffer that garbage!" because i know some people like it. despite my personal opinion that transformers is complete garbage, its obvious that some people like it so as opposed to me wanting no more transformers movies made, i'll just choose to not watch any future transformers movies. wouldn't you consider someone who wanted something taken off the air/not made anymore JUST because they didn't like it (knowing that there are people out there that do like it) a complete dickbag?
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
do they go extra ham on asian people in this one too? I remember the first one was super racist towards asians in that one scene, but there wasnt much of an uproar then, cause it was asians I guess.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
Just like violent media, while they do not have a direct effect on people, they can reinforce negative attitudes if handled poorly. Just look at the toxic masculinity that permeates media and how it could reinforce the views of those like people like Elliot Rodger.
If your point is that I don't want hateful content, then yes, that is true. I fail to see how that's something negative. Shitty jokes should be criticized, especially if these shitty jokes are also casually racist, homophobic, or transphobic. I don't want Adam Sandler to make any more movies, just as I don't want hateful jokes to be encouraged in any form of media.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You can make race jokes without being racist. You can make trans jokes without being transphobic. You can make gender jokes without being sexist.
Well you are consistent here is also not liking violent media and talking about toxic masculinity. I just disagree with everything.
Bad jokes or bad movies is one thing. But labeling hem bad DUE to the fact that they may be violent or offensive.... That's just an opinion I will never agree with. Especially it's of the notion that consuming this media will make the viewer into a certain type of individual. People are racists or murderers because of deep issues inside, not due to seeing a random movie or tv show
Further, in close knit circles jokes like those in family guy and Ted are told all the time. It's part of the reason those shows are successful: they take the non pc shit people say and say it loud and clear. Making a joke like this doesn't equate them with racists and sexists IMO. Joking about a stereotype doesn't equate racism either, even though it undoubtedly angers the more sensitive people out there
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
This doesn't make a point as much as it just says you hang with people who say racist and sexist shit. Your experience here isn't universal.
I was in friend groups that would eventually tell racist jokes in private when I lived in the south, thinking I'd be cool with it because I'm white. I stopped associating with those people because why would I want to hang with hateful cowards?
Corpsepyre
Banned
Criticizing Seth and his brand of comedy is so 1999. Guess the critics weren't aware of Family Guy.
EatinOlives
Member
People think all adult/offensive comedy is the same.
Some people REALLY can't understand that you can like offensive, dark comedy and dislike McFarlane at the same time.
not_so_special
Banned
i love the ...i dont want this to be banned...BUT
come on..al least be honest people
come on..al least be honest people
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
So what would you say is an example of a good joke that is either racist, homophobic, or transphobic? In Seth MacFarlane's case, many of his jokes are both bad and offensive.
Also, I'm not saying that watching this will make you racist or anything, but it can reinforce already existing attitudes. Look at Elliot Rodger. Obviously he was already a troubled individual, but the toxic masculinity that permeates our society encouraged his hateful beliefs and led to the killings last year. It would be nice if you could articulate why you disagree instead of just insisting it's not true. If it isn't, then why?
What I said is identical to what you said one post above. Making these jokes doesn't make you racist or sexist. I just gave the realistic context that people make them in places where they know these types of jokes wouldn't go over well.
Do racist and sexist people also make these jokes? Of course. But that's not the point
Is anyone saying that it makes you racist or sexist? I think they're saying it's just helps confirms the already present casual racism and misogyny. If they're already saying this stuff behind close doors don't you think seeing it on the big screen just confirms their casually racist beliefs.
SpiralZilla
Member
So, the criticisms aren't necessarily because of the humor, but because it compares the plight of a teddy bear to real life discrimination? I'm trying to see if I'm understanding correctly.
MHWilliams
Member
Close enough, and I didn't go back that far.
And hey, you're allowed to be unhappy that you're getting Federation Force instead of another Metroid Prime.
Resources are finite, so expressing the desire that resources were used elsewhere is fine. That's feedback. That's speech.
Nope. I'm perfectly cool with someone saying, "I don't like this and wish the creator/producer/publisher did something else." That's normal.
The problem is people are bringing in concepts like "censorship" and "banning" when they have no place here. If you don't like it, don't buy it, but also let the creators know why you didn't buy it. That creates informed creators. Not buying it alone is nothing. You weren't even in contention as a potential consumer. Whereas if you say "I didn't buy this because of X" the creators can at least decide if they want you as a consumer.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
We know exactly how long it's been since Seth MacFarlane stopped growing.
Troubled people will find rationality in everything for what they believe. You can attempt to stop validating it by erasing all media from portraying certain jokes or content, but troubled people will find validation everywhere so it's a fruitless effort. And certainly not a reason for stopping others from enjoying the content
Then again, I am a person that has laughed at family guy from time to time
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's funny how often people keep going back to this as some sort of plea when no one has said this.Troubled people will find rationality in everything for what they believe. You can attempt to stop validating it by erasing all media from portraying certain jokes or content, but troubled people will find validation everywhere so it's a fruitless effort. And certainly not a reason for stopping others from enjoying the content
Then again, I am a person that has laughed at family guy from time to time
There are a lot of great race jokes out there that some may consider racist. They cross lines and are irreverent in the best ways because they consider context and are thoughtful in their timing and use. They get people talking, and not just in a "haha black men exist and have dicks" sort of way. Good, smart, clever, and aware comedians and comedy exists.
Just because you've agreed to some strange non-alignment pact that compels all signatories to only pass judgments of taste ("I like A, others think that A sucks and like B"), doesn't mean outside parties have to. People can have convictions that aren't derived from tongues, noses and habits. People can and will judge artistic worth, ethical worth. People can and will explain why there's worth in something without falling back to their taste. If you can put forth a good argument, then yes, even you who usually only likes and dislikes can absolutely say that something I thoughtlessly like shouldn't be made, maybe because the real harm it causes others is greater than the shallow entertainment I gain. There's nothing diplomatic about choosing or recommending ignorance here, it's damaging. And if it shows that all I'm basing my opinion on is taste, you have every right to reject it when we have a discussion that encompasses so much more.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
not really. the example you brought up/disappointment is that i am a fan of a series that has a certain style/tone that this new game does not fit. if MPFH or whatever its called was just a new nintendo series do you think i would have cared so much? no. i would have just looked at it, said nah this isn't for me and moved on. presenting this as a metroid prime game is disappointing and i just won't buy it, but do i want the game to cease existing? no, i don't give a shit. nintendo has the resources to make this game and metroid prime 4 (as i'm sure they are currently doing). as long as i get a true sequel to metroid prime or a true 2D metroid prime came on 3ds i couldn't care less what other metroid games they release
and as it seems i dont think we are disagreeing anyways. your initial statement was i dont like this i want less of this made. my statement is i dont like this, i'm not going to buy this. i guess you can infer that if a company sees that people don't like something, they're going to make less of it.
MHWilliams
Member
Perhaps I misunderstood the tone of your statements then. I apologize if that's the case.
Yes. Because in commercial art, money is the bottom line. Producers will go where the consumers are. I can say I dislike shows like Duck Dynasty or 19 Kids and Counting and I wish TLC returned to its original remit. TLC looks at the feedback available, looks at the ratings, and adjusts accordingly. Hence why they're trying to make a 19 Kids and Counting spinoff focused on the family members that aren't hot lava. That's TLC's power as a creator and that's why my commentary is not, and will never be "censorship".
The differences are quibbling at best. You want A, company is making B, you are dissatisfied. If you are fine with not telling the company that you want A, that's fine. Rock out. But it's not abnormal or a dickbag move to actually vocalize my feelings as a consumer. That's part of being a consumer.
And in this case, these statements are part of being a critic.
Yes. Because in commercial art, money is the bottom line. Producers will go where the consumers are. I can say I dislike shows like Duck Dynasty or 19 Kids and Counting and I wish TLC returned to its original remit. TLC looks at the feedback available, looks at the ratings, and adjusts accordingly. Hence why they're trying to make a 19 Kids and Counting spinoff focused on the family members that aren't hot lava. That's TLC's power as a creator and that's why my commentary is not, and will never be "censorship".
The differences are quibbling at best. You want A, company is making B, you are dissatisfied. If you are fine with not telling the company that you want A, that's fine. Rock out. But it's not abnormal or a dickbag move to actually vocalize my feelings as a consumer. That's part of being a consumer.
And in this case, these statements are part of being a critic.
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