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[AZUMIKE]

You can do all the marketing in the world for a videogame, but if the core game isn't something the public wants, then it won't lead anywhere.

There is no marketing because there really isn't anything to market other than new characters like Kazumi, Katarina, Claudio, Shaheen, etc. They need to fix and add to the game to show the world and saying "Hey you might have skipped out on Tekken these past few years, but look at ****, *****, and **** mechanics that we added to bring you back in." Right now all they can market is "We took out tag mode, wakeup options, and step guarding... Please buy our game". Not gonna work. Let's just see what ever T7:BR brings to the table and hope it's something they can market.

Agreed. This is where I find character design to be quite important. Back when I played Tekken 3 and 4, I was brought in largely because of the characters.

Claudio, Katarina, Shaheen, Josie, Gigas and LC, although great concepts, could use more work. I'd honestly redo their default costumes, but then again no one seems to care about those anymore lol. Kazumi is pretty hype though.

 

[AAK]

I don't think casual players even care for new mechanics. There's a lot of great ways to build hype behind a title. Showcase that slow mo, them powerful hits, those sparks, etc. Combine these gifs and make a trailer or something for E3.

http://gifyu.com/images/Tekken-7-gif-6.gif[IMG]
[IMG]https://31.media.tumblr.com/6a98d144128779ce842cd8d51feeab3f/tumblr_noxy66mzuz1scncwdo2_r1_500.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]

If it's mechanics that won't sell to the casuals then Tekken 7 has no chance. Every character except the new ones are doing the same moves, winposes, and hit animations the casuals have watched from Tekken 5 -> TTT2. The marketing that Capcom and and NRS are doing with their games show their characters doing new things with new art (In MKX's case).

Simply showing the flashy moves with good editing in trailers can be done today with Tekken 6 since the animations and art are still the same. It's not enough to sell them on the new game IMO.

 

[MikeMyers]

Yes, this is Tekken we're talking about. A monumental title that has gotten increasingly niche since T6.

Yeah, back in the day Tekken was like Sony's flagship fighter until Sony lost their dominance in the PS3 gen. PS4 is making a comeback, but it seems like Sony is using SF as their flagship fighter now.

 

[Sayah]

If it's mechanics that won't sell to the casuals then Tekken 7 has no chance. Every character except the new ones are doing the same moves, winposes, and hit animations the casuals have watched from Tekken 5 -> TTT2. The marketing that Capcom and and NRS are doing with their games show their characters doing new things with new art (In MKX's case).

Simply showing the flashy moves with good editing in trailers can be done today with Tekken 6 since the animations and art are still the same. It's not enough to sell them on the new game IMO.

There are new hit animations.

When I first saw that, I said DAYUM SON. Full body twirl. The hit impact of that Claudio attack just looks so ferocious.

And all the characters have new win and intro poses. Even the old ones are practically new since most characters are speaking foreign languages now or have their TTT2 taunts replicated into a new pose (e.g. Law's "I'll break your nose in.")

You're talking like it's 100% recycled content and there's nothing new to show. There is a lot of new stuff to show, which is what I mentioned earlier. The amazing stage designs, graphic effects/visuals, hit effects, sparks, etc. These are what get people interested in games. The flashiness of it all. Unfortunately, most of the new character designs are completely uninspired but, regardless, they can still do a lot to show off the cool aspects of the game.

As I mentioned before, if an actual fan of your franchise is doing the work showing how beautiful your game really looks and all you can do is continue doing niconico streams at 240p or badly compressed youtube videos (with even those being limited to a Japanese audience), then yes, Namco is doing a terrible job at marketing.

In regards to mechanics, do you think a casual player really cares or even knows what V-trigger in SFV is or what it will do?

We'll just agree to disagree......again. :lol.

I really don't want to get into Tekken 7 arguments. I'm already avoiding posting in Tekken 7 news update threads so I don't get involved in these sort of discussions.

 

[AAK]

Hence why I said "Except the new ones"

Spoiler

BTW that animation from Claudio is recycled from Soul Calibur

I don't deny that Tekken 7 isn't beautiful... but if we are talking about casuals, it isn't enough in its current form to hype them the same way the other big FG's are. Agree to disagree

 

[Sayah]

Meh, the SC one doesn't even look good. The way the body twists full motion from one side to the other with Claudio's attack looks way cooler.

 

[AZUMIKE]

If Bamco doesn't announce that T7 Zebras Rebellion is near, what will make people really want to play Tekken, especially with Street Fighter V on the way? The current Tekken 7 is in beta form, and from the looks of it, will not compare to the impeding SFV.

What does Bamco have under its sleeve to get gamers hype and interested in the series..?
More characters? Character design revamps? Story mode that teaches fans to play the game? Easier/less stressful gameplay mechanics? All of those things are worthwhile, but not necessarily enough to have people waiting 1.5 years for a console release. Will the eventual console release sell? Definitely, it's a Tekken game. But in that 1.5 years, tons of your market have already bought MKX, Guilty Gear Xrd -Revelator, and are going to buy SFV.

But, if T7 and SCVI end up being solid, polished, well-made titles, the games should do fine. Albeit, catering to a TTT2 sized fan-base(hope its bigger than that). In the case of T7, heres hoping for lots of growth (patches and revisions) ahead.

 

[Sayah]

If Bamco doesn't announce that T7 Zebras Rebellion is near, what will make people really want to play Tekken, especially with Street Fighter V on the way? The current Tekken 7 is in beta form, and from the looks of it, will not compare to the impeding SFV.

What does Bamco have under its sleeve to get gamers hype and interested in the series..?
More characters? Character design revamps? Story mode that teaches fans to play the game? Easier/less stressful gameplay mechanics? All of those things are worthwhile, but not necessarily enough to have people waiting 1.5 years for a console release. Will it sell? Definitely, its a Tekken game. But in that 1.5 years, tons of your market have already bought MKX, Guilty Gear Xrd -Revelator, and are going to buy SFV.

But, if T7 and SCVI end up being solid, polished, well-made titles, the games should do fine. Albeit, catering to a TTT2 sized fan-base(hope its bigger than that). In the case if T7, heres hoping for lots of growth (patches and revisions) ahead.

That's the problem with the arcade model. I really can't have a wait like Tekken 6 again. I'm thinking Fall or Summer 2016 for Tekken 7. If it's any later than that, then there was absolutely no point for them to hype up a 20th Anniversary.

 

[Master Thespian]

Tekken discussions in 2015 remind me of Virtua Fighter discussions in 2008. Everyone is trying to figure out all these reasons why their game went from king of the mountain to afterthought. I don't think it's the release schedule, or marketing, or costumes, or graphics, or anything like that. It's the game itself. At the end of the day I just don't think the core Tekken mechanics appeal to the masses anymore. There are too many moves in general. Attacks properties are nuanced and don't seem all that different at first glance. Things that are normally easy are hard (movement) and things that are normally hard are easy (damage). Anemic vertical and long range games. The kind of things that Bamco would need to do to turn the tide for Tekken would turn it into something that isn't Tekken.

 

[Sayah]

Tekken discussions in 2015 remind me of Virtua Fighter discussions in 2008. Everyone is trying to figure out all these reasons why their game went from king of the mountain to afterthought. I don't think it's the release schedule, or marketing, or costumes, or graphics, or anything like that. It's the game itself. At the end of the day I just don't think the core Tekken mechanics appeal to the masses anymore. There are too many moves in general. Attacks properties are nuanced and don't seem all that different at first glance. Things that are normally easy are hard (movement) and things that are normally hard are easy (damage). Anemic vertical and long range games. The kind of things that Bamco would need to do to turn the tide for Tekken would turn it into something that isn't Tekken.

They can still keep that "Tekken" feel and completely innovate the gameplay system.

I would prefer a major time skip for Tekken 8 (if that game ever even happens). ALL old characters except for Yoshimitsu completely gone. Create a well made roster of 20 characters, each with a 60-70 move command list. Have whichever people that designed Tekken 7's new characters work on some other project. Have whichever people that designed SCV's new characters work on some other project. Don't let all the customers of moe even near this game. A little bit moe is okay but Tekken 7 is bombarded with it.

Ideas for innovating gameplay system:
I am no developer and don't know if this will ever work in actual game design but is it possible to develop a gameplay system that focuses less on launching your opponent into midair and having an ongoing midair combo and more on maybe "stunning" the opponent with certain attacks while he/she is still standing and then continue a barrage of combo attacks that pushes them back and eventually a "finishing" attack that lands them on the ground? It would be more realistic that way whereas in the current model, if you launch, you are literally just hitting the opponent's lower body side with all your combo attacks.

Again, not a developer so don't know how feasible this would ever be.

 

[Master Thespian]

They can still keep that "Tekken" feel and completely innovate the gameplay system.

I would prefer a major time skip for Tekken 8 (if that game ever even happens). ALL old characters except for Yoshimitsu completely gone. Create a well made roster of 20 characters, each with a 60-70 move command list. Have whichever people that designed Tekken 7's new characters work on some other project. Have whichever people that designed SCV's new characters work on some other project. Don't let all the customers of moe even near this game. A little bit moe is okay but Tekken 7 is bombarded with it.

Ideas for innovating gameplay system:
I am no developer and don't know if this will ever work in actual game design but is it possible to develop a gameplay system that focuses less on launching your opponent into midair and having an ongoing midair combo and more on maybe "stunning" the opponent with certain attacks while he/she is still standing and then continue a barrage of combo attacks that pushes them back and eventually a "finishing" attack that lands them on the ground? It would be more realistic that way whereas in the current model, if you launch, you are literally just hitting the opponent's lower body side with all your combo attacks.

Again, not a developer so don't know how feasible this would ever be.

At that point it's basically a new IP with Yoshimitsu as a guest character.

 

[Sayah]

At that point it's basically a new IP with Yoshimitsu as a guest character.

Which is fine. Tekken's gameplay system really cannot advance any further. TTT2 literally pushed it to the limit and there's not much room left for evolving it.

But despite that, it's possible to still maintain that "Tekken-y" feel in a new title if they want to while completely revamping everything. I also won't be disappointed if Tekken takes a break and Namco starts a brand new fighting game IP. I'm sure the 3D fighting game genre could really use new blood to freshen things up a bit. It's been Virtua Fighter, Dead or Alive, SoulCalibur, and Tekken sequel after sequel for so many years now.

Spoiler

I don't count games like Castlevania Judgment, lol.

 

[Master Thespian]

I also won't be disappointed if Tekken takes a break and Namco starts a brand new fighting game IP. I'm sure the 3D fighting game genre could really use new blood to freshen things up a bit. It's been Virtua Fighter, Dead or Alive, SoulCalibur, and Tekken sequel after sequel for so many years now.

Word.

 

[HeelPower]

Which is fine. Tekken's gameplay system really cannot advance any further. TTT2 literally pushed it to the limit and there's not much room left for evolving it.

I don't believe that's true at all.

There's lots of room for refinement and improvement,especially within TTT2's system.

To give a perfect example,I am actually going to Quote you

Ideas for innovating gameplay system:
I am no developer and don't know if this will ever work in actual game design but is it possible to develop a gameplay system that focuses less on launching your opponent into midair and having an ongoing midair combo .

Yeah. I actually think the combo system in is a flawed part of Tekken in general and particularly in TTT2.It really doesn't need it and is weighed down by combos.

Pure core game Tekken with only KD-into-free-move(as a "combo")at most would take the game to a whole new level in terms of pro gameplay.

Combos are the main reason Tekken has a prominent "dice throwing" randomness to it.

 

[Sayah]

I don't believe that's true at all.

There's lots of room for refinement and improvement,especially within TTT2's system.

To give a perfect example,I am actually going to Quote you



Yeah. I actually think the combo system in is a flawed part of Tekken in general and particularly in TTT2.It really doesn't need it and is weighed down by combos.

Pure core game Tekken with only KD-into-free-move(as a "combo")at most would take the game to a whole new level in terms of pro gameplay.

Combos are the main reason Tekken has a prominent "dice throwing" randomness to it.

How does removing combos "evolve" the existing Tekken gameplay system? Combos have always been a part of Tekken. That's more of a devolution than it is an evolution. The example I gave was for a brand new gameplay system. Not something that works on the existing Tekken gameplay.

And I also don't understand how combos have randomness. Maybe you're intending to say launchers have more randomness to them? Like a raw tag hopkick?

 

[MikeMyers]

At that point it's basically a new IP with Yoshimitsu as a guest character.

So....Soul Blade?

 

[HeelPower]

How does removing combos "evolve" the existing Tekken gameplay system? Combos have always been a part of Tekken. That's more of a devolution than it is an evolution. The example I gave was for a brand new gameplay system. Not something that works on the existing Tekken gameplay.

And I also don't understand how combos have randomness. Maybe you're intending to say launchers have more randomness to them? Like a raw tag hopkick?

EDIT : Without combos you'd have to win one many more mindgames in a row to earn the damage that you would other wise get in a juggle which leaves less things to chance.

When you take into Tekken's crush properties and the incredible importance of proper timing and spacing,the ridiculousness of moves than lead to what equates 10 or more pokes becomes immediately apparent.

 

[Sayah]

To put it simply : Tekken doesn't need the combo system and it impedes the actual core game from going for as long as it should within a regular match(and thus truly testing the limits players involved)

You're much better off throwing out a df+2/hopkick/CH 4/launcher/what have you than trying out more patient or subtle strategies.

So people try to roll their dice with these moves more often than not instead of making actual reads and earning every point of damage they got on their opponent.

Plus the poking damage is so high and adequate for some characters that it puzzles me why combos ever exist in what would otherwise be a far more interesting system.They're there for the spectacle and to make games go by faster which is more suitable for the arcade model from a financial perspective.

Players tactically chipping away at each other is far more interesting than : "woops CH EWGF time for 100 damage + Oki as a reward for beating the opponent's df+1"

I have to disagree here. It would be extremely boring if it was all just a game of pokes and movement. As if people already don't complain about Tekken matches lasting long and all the turtling that goes on.

It's more a risk/reward situation with launchers. I can understand your comment that people are often throwing out launchers just to see if they land (I do that ) but without combos, I would have like no interest in Tekken. You take a risk, you should be rewarded for it. You expertly use your movement to whiff an opponent attack, you should be rewarded with a launcher. Etc. etc.

 

[DEATH™]

To put it simply : Tekken doesn't need the combo system and it impedes the actual core game from going for as long as it should within a regular match(and thus truly testing the limits players involved)

You're much better off throwing out a df+2/hopkick/CH 4/launcher/what have you than trying out more patient or subtle strategies.

So people try to roll their dice with these moves more often than not instead of making actual reads and earning every point of damage they got on their opponent.

Plus the poking damage is so high and adequate for some characters that it puzzles me why combos ever exist in what would otherwise be a far more interesting system.They're there for the spectacle and to make games go by faster which is more suitable for the arcade model from a financial perspective.

Players tactically chipping away at each other is far more interesting than : "woops CH EWGF time for 100 damage + Oki as a reward for beating the opponent's df+1"

Umm... based on your reasoning, you are asking for a mindless pitbull game.

Sorry but in a game where those high damage tools are gone, you pretty much limit the game into mindless brawling where the only brawlers have the advantage. You take away the defensive style of gameplay where you go for punishes and setups.

The problem you are pointing at isn't really a problem at all, because mindgames do exist in Tekken and it's much much more than you are saying. The problem is you do not respect the tools. If you know that your opponent has an electric, WHY would you even try to do a dash df+1 or not gauging where your df+1 will whiff? If you are falling for a YOLO electric, then you have that one coming.

 

[HeelPower]

you are asking for a mindless pitbull game.

.

what ?....

What I am saying has nothing to do with variety of moves,styles or defensive options.

I am talking about how the incredible damage gained by launchers limits the number of confrontations and mindgame battles players have to go through with in a match.

Think of it as playing first to 2(combo system) versus first to 5(Tekken without combos)

but without combos, I would have like no interest in Tekken. You take a risk, you should be rewarded for it.

Well,there are different reasons why we're drawn to Tekken then

I am most invested in the actual spacing/poking game ,and that's why I enjoy watching Korean gameplay the most.

The problem currently with the game is that opting for a launcher is nearly the same risk as opting for anything else ,but the reward is much less significant.

 

[ZeroTheShadow]

Why would you remove the ability to get huge damage of specific reads? That's literally the best part about Tekken. If I know exactly what you are going to do I get a huge reward.

 

[DEATH™]

what ?....

What I am saying has nothing to do with variety of moves,styles or defensive options.

I am talking about how the incredible damage gained by launchers limits the number of confrontations and mindgame battles players have to go through with in a match.

Think of it as playing first to 2(combo system) versus first to 5(Tekken without combos)



Well,there are different reasons why we're drawn to Tekken then

I am most invested in the actual spacing/poking game ,and that's why I enjoy watching Korean gameplay the most.

The problem currently with the game is that opting for a launcher is nearly the same risk as opting for anything else ,but the reward is much less significant.

The bolded is the greatest flaw of your argument. Confrontations don't always equal mindgames, In fact it's the opposite where you are playing a fast paced rock-paper-scissors where you are forced with the fast flow and whoever does the right poke wins one poke and you do that for out of 5-10 times. That isn't mindgames...

Compare that to trying to find opponent's tendencies, or figuring out your opponent's next attack, or setting them up to the move you want him to do, or guessing yourself if you should settle for a safer option poke or a high risk launcher... That's mindgames. You are making decisions based on yours and your opponent's tools and tendencies, to a point where even the simplest of dashes can put so much tension to you even if technically there was nothing happened.

It's obvious now that you haven't experience or even payed attention to a high-level or even a mid-high-level tekken match and basing your wishes on a short uninformed experience (probably online). You are wanting a game where you can just go play and brawl, which is fine if you want a type of game like that, but please do consider the things you wish for, because the future of tekken comes from your wishes, not us who loved tekken and play it out of loving loyalty because of the deep aspects it provides...

 

[sasuke_91]

Why would you remove the ability to get huge damage of specific reads? That's literally the best part about Tekken. If I know exactly what you are going to do I get a huge reward.

Exactly. I bait a whiff and get a huge damage launcher out of it. It would be no fun if all I got was a KD move or a df+1
Combos are one of the most fun parts about Tekken for me. Especially since combos are basically my strongest part...

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

So T7 pretty much skipping E3 or at least no big info dump to be expected.

Anyway,game is probably seriously far off from release.One reason could be avoiding SFV's release hype which,let's face it,would probably completely destroy T7's already weak anticipation.

But then that would mean spending two+years in the arcade and completely draining the game's life by the time it actually releases.

I was actually going to say something like this awhile back. The anticipation and vibe for Tekken 7 right now isn't quite where it should be unfortunately, especially when compared to SF5 or MKX and if Tekken 7 stays in the arcades for 2 years again, I doubt that will do it any favors and potentially hurt the series even further. The rumored update can definitely improve and even revitalize the game in a sense, but that could push the game back even further. The reason I say this is because after watching it on Youtube/online, reading about all of the characters, seeing high level and low level gameplay repeatedly for such a elongated period of time, wouldn't the element of surprise and discovery rate be significantly lowered by the time it comes out at home for players who keep up with Tekken on a regular basis? Unless of course they pack the home version with a plethora of noteworthy extras or something to reinvigorate the game. I guess we will have to see.

 

[Fraeon]

Our online tournament crew took a break this week to have a tournament offline.

We got about half of our good players here but offline is offline:

http://twitch.tv/konna3

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I think T7 is a step in the right direction for the most part when it comes to changing the system up.

Having stuns instead of a juggle state sucks. I had enough of that in SCIV.

 

[SquirrelSoup]

Have whichever people that designed Tekken 7's new characters work on some other project. Have whichever people that designed SCV's new characters work on some other project. Don't let all the customers of moe even near this game. A little bit moe is okay but Tekken 7 is bombarded with it.

Why.. would you want to limit your install base by that much? Having no pretty girl characters is as limiting as having only those.

In an already supposedly waning game, why would you want to tell part of your clientele to go fuck off?

 

[MikeBreezy92]

Why.. would you want to limit your install base by that much? Having no pretty girl characters is as limiting as having only those.

In an already supposedly waning game, why would you want to tell part of your clientele to go fuck off?

Because.....

I am no developer

I get why he says that though. They're using the aesthetic a little too much.

 

[SquirrelSoup]

There's still two largely angry dudes for every girl so i don't see it. It's not like Arcana Heart.

 

[Sayah]

Why.. would you want to limit your install base by that much? Having no pretty girl characters is as limiting as having only those.

In an already supposedly waning game, why would you want to tell part of your clientele to go fuck off?

I'm not saying have completely zero cute characters. But I think Tekken 7 is really overdoing it with the moe.
I can understand AAK's frustration with some of these designs as well. The King of the IRON FIST Tournament 7. The Winner: Rucky Chroe with her cute shoulder reaching mittens on. :lol. The design is just so bad. I love her EngRish but the design makes me want to barf. Same applies with Devil Kazumi. This is why I don't want Tekken 7 guest designers again. I was excited after hearing so many renowned names from Bayonetta and No More Heroes and it gradually just turned into disappointment.

Let's just classify the currently known Tekken 7 roster.

Cute Express:

Xiaoyu
Alisa
Josie
Lucky Chloe
Asuka
Lili

"Angry Dudes"
Kazuya
Heihachi
Feng

Silently Sadistic
Jin
Dragunov

Loudly Sadistic
Bryan

Comedy Relief
Law
Paul

Brash/Arrogant
Katarina
Hwoarang

Peaceful
Yoshimitsu (Robin Hood)
Lars (He's nice enough to send you a medic after the fight :lol :lol :lol :lol)

Dedicated to their Fighting Style
Steve (Boxing)
King (Wrestling)

Fight With a Purpose
Leo (avenging some dead family member?)
Claudio (devil exorcist?)
Shaheen (trying to find some truth?)

Classy old lady that still looks 25
Kazumi

Pure Evil
Devil Jin
Devil Kazumi

Misc.
Jack-7
Gigas

 

[SquirrelSoup]

That classification seems fairly one-sided.

Why are

and

sooooo different when they basically only hair swap yet

and

are both blanket 'cute express'?

Come on, that's pretty short-sighted.

For every female in the cast there are currently two dudes. Most of them are >=( and some of them are >=) There's tons of options if you like badass muscle dudes with big eyebrows. How.. is that not good enough? Why would you begrudge people who like cute or pretty female characters those few choices they have in favor of even more beefcake?

Half male and half female would be a fairer split. I want more options to pick from too! I'm not even at all a fan of the overdone Alisa/Chloe moe stuff but i -do- want everyone to be able to find a character they like. You should too! It's good to have a lot of players on a game you play.

For a nice thought experiment, imagine only 6 guys make it into the cast. Really, go ahead, look at the cast and pick 6 dudes and that's it. The rest is all frilly dresses and pink hair and flowers and shit. Then when the seventh dude is added you get to enjoy a fifteen page thread about people wanting to drop the game because of 'all this beefcake' and 'Namco is really overdoing it.'

Yeah. Nonsense.

 

[Creaking]

I want more female characters as much as anyone, but female shouldn't have to mean cute and frilly, just as male shouldn't have to mean beefcake. There are so many other character types that could be created here, but the large majority are these stupid extremes.


I will say that the musclebound archetype makes much more sense for a fighting tournament than the happy-go-lucky-teenaged-girl-with-pencil-limbs archetype does. In that sense, it follows logically that the majority of the cast fall into the former category. We could have more females there too, but apparently those types of characters don't sell to a Japanese audience.

And another thing; way back in Tekken 3, Xiaoyu was the only character with that archetype. It was unique to the cast and... contained. This held until around 5 or Dark Ressurection depending on whether you pin Asuka or Lili on starting the expansion (I guess you could say Miharu too, but I don't really count her. She was a palette-swap, and not in the least bit prominent).

That isn't to say that there weren't any females in the old games, they just weren't pop stars or highschoolers playing anime rivals with each other. Now we've got 9 females in Tekken 7, and 2/3rds of them are just that.

 

[MikeMyers]

Comedy Relief
Paul

 

[Sayah]

That classification seems fairly one-sided.

Why are

and

sooooo different when they basically only hair swap yet

and

are both blanket 'cute express'?

Come on, that's pretty short-sighted.

For every female in the cast there are currently two dudes. Most of them are >=( and some of them are >=) There's tons of options if you like badass muscle dudes with big eyebrows. How.. is that not good enough? Why would you begrudge people who like cute or pretty female characters those few choices they have in favor of even more beefcake?

Half male and half female would be a fairer split. I want more options to pick from too! I'm not even at all a fan of the overdone Alisa/Chloe moe stuff but i -do- want everyone to be able to find a character they like. You should too! It's good to have a lot of players on a game you play.

For a nice thought experiment, imagine only 6 guys make it into the cast. Really, go ahead, look at the cast and pick 6 dudes and that's it. The rest is all frilly dresses and pink hair and flowers and shit. Then when the seventh dude is added you get to enjoy a fifteen page thread about people wanting to drop the game because of 'all this beefcake' and 'Namco is really overdoing it.'

Yeah. Nonsense.

This is Feng. Literally punching his master through a tree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG-RqE9EWW0#t=3m6s
This is Law.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB40H-H0VdY#t=26s

How do you even put them in the same category? Meanwhile, LIli and Xiaoyu are both underage females with "cute" habits. Lili is always acting pretentious, has her butler alongsider her, and making fun of Asuka. When she was introduced in Tekken 5 DR, she was actually a really cool character. I mean how cool is this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-RYB8ahIrI#t=45s

But then in Tekken 6, her character devolved into pointless teenage rivalry with Asuka. The majority of the Tekken female cast even got their faces "cute-ified" in Tekken Revolution.

I am always for more diversity. But adding more characters with personalities like Chloe and Josie is not diversity. It's sameness. We already have enough teenage squabble going on (whether it's Asuka/Lili rivalry or Alisa/Xiaoyu). Leo can also be considered cute but I separated her from the rest of the cute express camp because her storyline is actually pretty deep and she has a lot of great motivations behind entering the tournament. Her storyline isn't about simply being shallow and cute like it is for the others. Which is what I'm implying it's okay to have some moe but don't let it take over the entire character to the point that there's not much else left to recognize. When I look at Chloe and Josie, their personality just screams they were made for the sole purpose of being a cute character. That's too shallow. I need greater personality and definitely better design.

You're practically presuming that all the male characters have the same bland "angry, macho man" personality but that's not the case. I just pointed out the difference between Feng and Law, who you're saying only differ in hair style.

What I want from Tekken is a more mature female cast. I don't care about male-female split as long as there is enough representation of both. I need diversity. But Tekken 7's female cast is by and large focused on and prioritized with underage girls. And somehow, conveniently, older female characters have an excuse for staying young. In this iteration, it's Kazumi. I need more diversified characters and I've already said this many many times before. If we can have fat Bob, why can't we have a fat female character? If we can have old old Heihachi, Jinpachi, Wang, etc., why can't we have an old female character? Instead, Tekken has increasingly been focused on having a younger and cuter female cast. I hope my point is more clear now.

 

[SquirrelSoup]

I want more female characters as much as anyone, but female shouldn't have to mean cute and frilly, just as male shouldn't have to mean beefcake. There are so many other character types that could be created here, but the large majority are these stupid extremes.

I will say that the musclebound archetype makes much more sense for a fighting tournament than the happy-go-lucky-teenaged-girl-with-pencil-limbs archetype does. In that sense, it follows logically that the majority of the cast fall into the former category. We could have more females there too, but apparently those types of characters don't sell to a Japanese audience.

Myeah, i agree.

I do like seeing Kazumi and Leo and Katarina much more than Lucky Chloe or whoever. I would like to see Kunimitsu, preferably with more clothes on. Give her a powersuit like Yoshi has, why not? I wouldn't be disappointed at all if Josie looked more like Lucia Rijker than what she is now.

That's just personal taste though. In a series with robots and dinosaurs and devils there's nothing objectively against frilly schoolgirls. So having a few characters of that sort in there is perfectly fine for people who like it. Why not?

But I will say that calling the current situation 'bombarded with moe' is pretty out there when the vast majority of characters is basically the opposite.

 

[Sayah]

I want more female characters as much as anyone, but female shouldn't have to mean cute and frilly, just as male shouldn't have to mean beefcake. There are so many other character types that could be created here, but the large majority are these stupid extremes.


I will say that the musclebound archetype makes much more sense for a fighting tournament than the happy-go-lucky-teenaged-girl-with-pencil-limbs archetype does. In that sense, it follows logically that the majority of the cast fall into the former category. We could have more females there too, but apparently those types of characters don't sell to a Japanese audience.

And another thing; way back in Tekken 3, Xiaoyu was the only character with that archetype. It was unique to the cast and... contained. This held until around 5 or Dark Ressurection depending on whether you pin Asuka or Lili on starting the expansion (I guess you could say Miharu too, but I don't really count her. She was a palette-swap, and not in the least bit prominent).

That isn't to say that there weren't any females in the old games, they just weren't pop stars or highschoolers playing anime rivals with each other. Now we've got 9 females in Tekken 7, and 2/3rds of them are just that.

Exactly this point.

It is a "stupid extreme" (as you mention it) that limits the diversity. I don't mind cuteness. I have nothing against beautiful, cute, whatever. But it shouldn't take over to the point that 2/3 of your female cast is teenage girls absorbed in cuteness.

It leads to greater homogeneity and less diversity, which is something I don't like. Which goes back to what I said about hoping that whoever designed Tekken 7 characters stays the hell away from Tekken 8. Because at this rate, 50% of Tekken 8's cast will be teenage drama.

 

[SquirrelSoup]

I see, Sayah. It seems we judge characters on different things.

I only very superficially care for how any of them are in the story cinematics or intros or whatever motivations they have. To me, fighting game stories have so far all been garbage anyway so it makes no difference that Asuka has a shitty rivalry story with Lili compared to Leo having a shitty serious story with dead mom. So as far as personality and looks and everything goes, i judge only what they show in the game. So to me the difference between Lili and Xiaoyu is vast (pretty compared to cute, large color and outfit differences, gymnastics compared to kung fu stuff) while, well, look at these two pictures: 1 2. Yes, intentionally zoomed out. They're the same. Same outfit, same facial expressions, same damn body, not really dissimilar looking fighting styles.

In short, i don't give three shits about whatever they're doing in cinematics or backstory. The teenage drama doesn't ruin anything for me because there's nothing -to- ruin. I don't look at that stuff and i don't have to to play. Makes zero difference to me that out of two similar looking dudes, one is a killer and the other gets dickpunched back in T6 or whenever and so is comic relief. They're still two similar looking dudes. As an example, Dragunov to me is an actually different character because he manages to -look- different in demeanor and appearance.

I -do- care very very much that 2/3rds or the cast is the same looking beefcake dudes. Some of them may act goofy somewhere else, but so what? Comic relief Paul is still RAAAGH deathfist in game and has that outfit, those muscles and those eyebrows. And there's twenty more of these rotters in the game! And when finally something different comes along, even if it is moe nonsense, people want even more of these guys instead. aaaAAAaaaa

We'll have to agree to disagree i suspect >.o
I do understand where you're coming from now though.

 

[Sayah]

I am looking most specifically at character personality, which I am determining through cinematics, back story, intro poses, and win taunts along with general traits (like age). I am not saying that all these cute characters are the exact same. But they share certain similarities that I pointed out. Particularly, I am starting to get annoyed with increasing representation of underage female characters. First it was just Xiaoyu but gradually and over time its become six of them. It's not that I'm against more female characters. I'm just against the same type cast. Give me a fat female character or an old female character or even Miguel's sister zombie bride or whatever. Don't instead put in six teenage girls. What place do teenage girls have in an IRON FIST tournament? I have no idea. That's not to say teenage girls can't be strong. I would have the same reaction if we suddenly had six teenage males in Tekken.

I would much rather have a female ninja like Kunimitsu over Lucky Chloe. I would much rather have Angel over someone like Josie. Kunimitsu and Angel are worlds apart as far as their demeanor and personality goes, which adds greatly to roster diversity. Josie and Chloe, on the other hand, share too many similarities. Both have terrible designs. One tries to be cute by crying and the other tries to be cute by speaking Engrish and putting on kitty headphones and a tail. And they both look like and behave like young teenagers do. And these young characters are being introduced at the expense of losing at least some of the actually good, mature female characters with differing personalities and styles (Nina, Anna, Zafina, Jun, Kunimitsu, Angel, Julia, etc).

I guess we'll just have to disagree though.

 

[Terareflection]

GGs, boltgear.

Sorry for the sudden exit. Something came up.

 

[Sayah]

I actually hope MarkMan has read my posts and questions the developers about this. Ask them why a game that's entire premise is based on an Iron Fist tournament has six out of nine of its female characters as either teenage girls (Lili, Askua, Josie, Lucky Chloe, XIaoyu) or a robot that exhibits teenage behavior (Alisa). We're left with Katarina, Leo, and Kazumi, one of which is already looking way younger than what her actual age should have been. Why don't we have an old or fat or black female character? So sad.

 

[Master Thespian]

I actually hope MarkMan has read my posts and questions the developers about this. Ask them why a game that's entire premise is based on an Iron Fist tournament has six out of nine of its female characters as either teenage girls (Lili, Askua, Josie, Lucky Chloe, XIaoyu) or a robot that exhibits teenage behavior (Alisa). We're left with Katarina, Leo, and Kazumi, one of which is already looking way younger than what her actual age should have been. Why don't we have an old or fat or black female character? So sad.

Namco is taking black characters out not adding new ones.

 

[Sayah]

Namco is taking black characters out not adding new ones.

Well, Bruce is definitely out but Raven might make it in.

I don't think Tekken 7 is performing that well in arcades either. Or at least not as well as previous games in the series have. Doesn't seem like it's going to do well during its worldwide release either. A lot of people literally hate this game for a lot of the development choices Tekken project team has made. I have certain issues too obviously but still really looking forward to it because there isn't much else for me in the gaming world. Maybe get to experience the joy of 1v1 Tekken one last time. lol.

 

[ZeroTheShadow]

Just realized today some people think being part of the FGC means you bought a fighting game(Street Fighter specifically) once. Great. Can't wait for me to tell someone I'm in the FGC and they go "Oh?! What character do you play? Ken, Bison? Chun Li?"

 

[AAK]

Technically, Smash Bros is bigger than nearly every other fighting game combined. So chances are it would be more like "Who do you play, Pikachu, Mario, or Fox?"

 

[ZeroTheShadow]

Technically, Smash Bros is bigger than nearly every other fighting game combined. So chances are it would be more like "Who do you play, Pikachu, Mario, or Fox?"

Not according to the thread specifically addressed to FGC members about Ryu having classic fighting game controls. Apparently if you've ever played a SF game your in the FGC. Congratz. You never had to go to multiple tournaments or help support a community or organize events. All you need is a GAF account and have played some fighting games before.

Seriously the shit people say on this forum. Can't wait to make my thread "Competitive Melee Players: What do you think about wave dashing in Tekken?"

 

[AAK]

There was once upon a time where I would care and become the internet legionnaire to correct everything I found wrong.... I'm past that now lol. I'm not gonna bother saying anything or letting anything get to me unless I'm absolutely positive a reply I make can make a difference and change the perception of whomever is interested. I don't think anyone will give 2c about what the FGC means or doesn't mean. Don't let that get to you.

All I currently care about now is for some company to come and make a 3D fighting game that can blow everyone away just like how Tekken 3 did. It's the only thing left that compels me to be extremely vocal. I dunno how long until I give that up as well...

 

[ZeroTheShadow]

There was once upon a time where I would care and become the internet legionnaire to correct everything I found wrong.... I'm past that now lol. I'm not gonna bother saying anything or letting anything get to me unless I'm absolutely positive a reply I make can make a difference and change the perception of whomever is interested. I don't think anyone will give 2c about what the FGC means or doesn't mean. Don't let that get to you.

All I currently care about now is for some company to come and make a 3D fighting game that can blow everyone away just like how Tekken 3 did. It's the only thing left that compels me to be extremely vocal. I dunno how long until I give that up as well...

I'm sorry AAK but the stupidity levels are out of control. Like I don't even. BTW you wanna play some games in a bit?

 

[AAK]

Sorry, my roommates are sleeping Arcade stick is way too loud.

I'm gonna hit the sack soon too... got to get up early to take care of some errands.

 

[Sayah]

I'm sorry AAK but the stupidity levels are out of control. Like I don't even. BTW you wanna play some games in a bit?

I'll play for like an hour.

 

[ZeroTheShadow]

I'll play for like an hour.

Can you wait like 15 minutes for me to run and get some Dunkin Dounuts? I need something to drink.