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[Sayah]

What Big and I are saying is that every character has a framework or template that they are all based on and from there the uniqueness comes in.

Hurr durr.
That's the case with like every fighting game.

MvC3 works off the same template for every character. If you haven't played MvC, it's similar to Tekken's 1,2,3,4 template where you have four standardized attacks (low, medium, high, and launch) for ever character along with added tag and assist buttons.

Super Smash Bros. works off the same template. Every character has at least one recovery move. A attacks are used in close proximity by everyone due to low startup frames and faster hits. Holding any direction + A leads to a charged, more powerful attack for every single character in the cast. Every character is able to jump at least twice.

Yet, if you called either of these games homogeneous, you will get laughed at.

It's important to have a standard template that makes sense and that people can follow and there's nothing wrong with giving a fighting game cast a shared set of tools. It's why I disagreed with AAK when he said every character should be non-traditional like Steve. Standard formats are important to have. Even AAK, if he recalls previous comments, has said Tekken's standardized 1,2,3,4 system makes a lot of sense because each limb is attached to a button. Don't know why he's suddenly opposed to it and wants to have a non-traditional schematic like Steve for everyone.

But at the same time, saying that these characters are homogeneous would mean you're only and exclusively looking at the shared set of tools across the entire game instead of looking at the whole, which is more important. By looking at the whole set of tools a character has beyond what's just standardized, you can see the greater intricacies at work.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

Hurr durr.
That's the case with like every fighting game.

MvC3 works off the same template for every character. If you haven't played MvC, it's similar to Tekken's 1,2,3,4 template where you have four standardized attacks (low, medium, high, and launch) for ever character along with added tag and assist buttons.

Super Smash Bros. works off the same template. Every character has at least one recovery move. A attacks are used in close proximity by everyone due to low startup frames and faster hits. Holding any direction + A leads to a charged, more powerful attack for every single character in the cast. Every character is able to jump at least twice.

Yet, if you called either of these games homogeneous, you will get laughed at.

It's important to have a standard template that makes sense and that people can follow and there's nothing wrong with giving a fighting game cast a shared set of tools. It's why I disagreed with AAK when he said every character should be non-traditional like Steve. Standard formats are important to have. Even AAK, if he recalls previous comments, has said Tekken's standardized 1,2,3,4 system makes a lot of sense because each limb is attached to a button. Don't know why he's suddenly opposed to it and wants to have a non-traditional schematic like Steve for everyone.

But at the same time, saying that these characters are homogeneous would mean you're only and exclusively looking at the shared set of tools across the entire game instead of looking at the whole, which is more important. By looking at the whole set of tools a character has beyond what's just standardized, you can see the greater intricacies at work.

OK dude....smh.

 

[Manbig]

Hurr durr.
That's the case with like every fighting game.

Not exactly. There's a far wider gap of unique playstyles in other fighting games because, like I said earlier, trying to get too unique in a 3D fighting game with the massive move sets would make it damn near impossible to balance. Feel free to plug your ears and ignore what I'm saying all you want, but I'm just spitting facts here.

Also, why the hell would anyone even be so defensive about Tekken in regards to this? It's a GOOD thing that this template exists. It's one of the things you can throw in the face of people that say "Oh this game is way too hard to learn! 100+ movelists are too much!"

This is not a negative thing at all people.

 

[Sayah]

Not exactly. There's a far wider gap of unique playstyles in other fighting games because, like I said earlier, trying to get too unique in a 3D fighting game with the massive move sets would make it damn near impossible to balance. Feel free to plug your ears and ignore what I'm saying all you want, but I'm just spitting facts here.

Also, why the hell would anyone even be so defensive about Tekken in regards to this? It's a GOOD thing that this template exists. It's one of the things you can throw in the face of people that say "Oh this game is way too hear to learn! 100+ movelists are too much!"

This is not a negative thing at all people.

It's funny you say that while not directly addressing a single one of the points I made.
Basically, every fighting game has a standard template that it follows and that characters fall under. It's important to have and it keeps things consistent.

But that does not mean that everyone follows the same boring structure when fighting. Tekken characters do not follow the same game plan. The strategies a character undertakes will vary greatly based on the unique tools that are provided to them. Let me reiterate:

Tekken is not just a test of who's better at using their hopkick, 15-17 frame low poke, 10f jab, low crush, or whatever. The system is a lot more diverse and complex than that.

Do you disagree with this statement?
If you disagree, then please do answer to the multiple examples I've listed out on the previous page.
If you agree, then you're wrong about your earlier claims. It's one thing to say that Tekken characters are based on a shared template. That's fine. Every fighting game is based off of a "homogeneous skeleton/template/whatever" because it's important to have standardized forms of control. It's like stating the obvious ("the sky is blue"). It's another thing to say that Tekken characters (across the board) systematically follow the same game plan and do not have divergences or variation in strategy or playstyles.

I don't want to get into "this game has more divergence than that game. X games characters are more unique than Y game's characters."

Are Tekken characters unique or homogeneous? Do they have diverse playstyles, or do they all follow the same standard game plan? Answer that.

 

[sasuke_91]

Good games AAK. Long session, that was fun!
The lag was really bearable, for me at least. Way better than I thought. Almost as good as with Sayah or Manny and a lot better than with bout.
Couldn't break a single grab though and blocking lows was hard. You missed Jack's bound a lot as well (but your throw break and defense was really good!).

At some point I got distracted because I had the PSX stream running on my phone and Level-5 took the stage. Maan I'm hyped!

 

[AAK]

Ggs sasuke. Yeah I dropped every other combo and didn't punish at all. I was trying to duck the highs and launch but my execution is really in pieces. At one point I just gave up and simply went for ws+4 punishes. I'm still not completely used to pad yet. But GG's. Your backdash cancelling and sidesteps were really good.

Sayah:

First of all, about my statement about Tekken 3's limbs corresponding to each limb I still stand by it. It's something that really appealed to me with Tekken when I first played it. But my original post about that further explained why it was so appealing was because of the control it provided. When you see a move that had 3 hits to it like a hunting hawk or a junkyard you knew you had to press 3 buttons so it felt like you were always in control. Your character on screen was the closest extension to your fingertips. That was the most important aspect where everything felt dynamic and wasn't just a canned animation (which is now the case in T7 thanks to Supers). And just because I liked it doesn't mean I'm not open to change. Like you said earlier, TTT2 is the grand culmination of perfecting all the intricacies of the current system and it's time for the series to be open to new ideas. We always have TTT2 with us to play if we want to experience this style of Tekken.

But most of all, this discussion we're having Tekken's homogeneity. Let me preface to say that it's not necessarily a bad thing. Because of it we got such a balanced game. But again this is a new generation of gaming and some inventive evolution is long overdue. Regardless, all those things you mentioned like Wang's parry, Anna's CAT stance, Jinpachi's teleports, are all nothing compared to the power of backdash cancelling. Wang's parry is definitely different in TTT2 because it neutralize tag crashes which I admit is something crucial. But in a solo match, backdash cancelling is by far safer and more optimal in the overall gameplan. Those things have their uses in okizeme traps and other hard reads but it's hardly "critical" in the overall gameplan if your core movement and character is on point and you know the optimal whiff punishers of the characters.

And to prove this point, it's so evident in Tekken where you have players like Help Me, Nobi, Knee, Anakin, etc. get to such high ranks with a huge plethora of characters. Their core knowledge is so high and all they really need is proper spacing/execution and character knowledge on how to punish to play at a world class level. You don't see that with other games. The best players in Guilty Gear like Ogawa, FAB dominate with their main but can't do the same with half the other cast. Of coarse there are those exceptions like Kuroda in 3rd Strike or Infiltration in SF4 but they are 1 among millions. In TTT2 you can look at so many players like Real Manace, Anakin, BrawlPro, JustFrameNope top the PSN charts with almost half the cast but you can't say the same about the top players many other fighting games. It's all because the playstyle of one character can translate smoothly into any other. They don't need to master Hwoarang's, Zafina's, Baek's stances to play at a high level because the tools to beat any character are already built into every character. It's all in the movement. In many other games, the tools to win many matchups are exclusive to a set of characters.

Manny is also saying the game will be impossible to balance if Tekken deviates from this. I admit it will be difficult, but I still wish they'd try. In this age of online patches and instant communication via twitter/youtube I think they can incrementally keep improving the product to reach a fun compromise with a hugely varied cast and relatively balanced competitive game. And what I'm typing doesn't mean I want them to ditch the movement of TTT2 at all by the way. I simply feel there's so many other variables that the Tekken system can take advantage of to breathe new life into the franchise.

EDIT: I just saw that Last Blade 2 is announced for PS4. That's crazy! Hope they patch Zantetsu and Lee. That game has some brilliant charisma.

 

[Sayah]

I've already expressed full support for having a new Tekken akin to Tekken 4 that's more experimental. But that's not what's being discussed here or the main discussion point.

What's being discussed is the current state of the gameplay as it exists. I think you are kind of diverting from my primary questions. Are you saying that because we have backdash cancel, Wang's parry and Jinpachi's teleport are irrelevant? Because that's wrong on many levels. Both of those moves are used extensively at a competitive level. The presence of BDC does not negate their relevance. Even assuming they are irrelevant due to BDC, what about all of the other multiple examples I've provided? Are those also irrelevant because we are universally assuming homogeneity in the cast because some Tekken players can easily rank up with different characters? lol. That's one huge assumption. You're trying to use a very flawed loop to try to prove a point.

Please answer directly. Are you still sticking with your stance that every single Tekken character has the same game plan? If you're using ranking matches as proof of character homogeneity, then I'm sorry that won't work.

 

[AAK]

That's because the other examples you've provided are a very small subset of one part of Tekken's gameplay. Yes, if you're only going to focus on what sort of offensive tools each character has break a character in the neutral game then sure, there are unique attributes. But there is so much more to Tekken. One example is movement. The movement is overall homogeneous across the cast by design. Everyone walks/runs/crouch-walks exactly the same, everyone can backdash or forward dash cancel depending on the player's execution and traverse the domain in their own way.

Another example is punishment. In Tekken you always do your relevant max damage 10-15+ frame or whiff punisher, something every Tekken character has and must do. There isn't a character in Tekken where doing your max damage isn't the most optimal thing to do. Sometimes it's optimal to do a move that lets you run away. For example, with Dhalsim you usually throw your opponent away as a punish rather than do his max damage combo since that allows for him to turn the game into a match where he has the advantage.

And even in other defensive options, if you know someone is doing a low move, you do a low crush move, or a low parry. They're universal options, something everyone in the game has. Or vice versa if there's a high move coming you do a high crush, another tool everyone has. Simultaneously, there are universal homing moves that will beat someone trying to step (something that wasn't in Tekken pre-T6). All of these are things every character has and that's the root of the "homogeneity" comments. As long as you know the punishers/low-crush/high-crush/homing-moves/movement-execution you can play every character at a base level.

And you can't say that argument holds in every game. There are many characters in different fighting games that don't have guaranteed answers to every situation which demands intricate experimentation to solve the match ups.

 

[Sayah]

That's because the other examples you've provided are a very small subset of one part of Tekken's gameplay. Yes, if you're only going to focus on what sort of offensive tools each character has break a character in the neutral game then sure, there are unique attributes.

You're still not answering the question. How is the game plan and strategy for every character the same across the board when you have certain characters that rely heavily on certain tools that are not standard across the cast.

To give an example, yes, Chaos Judgment is a single tool out of many for Anna but is an important single tool and is very critical for her gameplay style. It's exclusive to her. It's unique to her. And no one else in the cast has it. It's a huge part of how Anna players strategize. It's not just a minor frame divergence for a poke or punish. It's a huge uniquepart of her playstyle and gameplay that is exclusively available to her and no one else.

Again I ask, how is the game plan for every character the same when no other character in the cast is able to auto launch lows like Anna and strategize with that move in mind?

But there is so much more to Tekken. One example is movement. The movement is overall homogeneous across the cast by design. Everyone walks/runs/crouch-walks exactly the same, everyone can backdash or forward dash cancel depending on the player's execution and traverse the domain in their own way.

This is exactly where I wished people would pay attention to what I'm saying. The movement is NOT homogeneous across the entire cast when you have characters that can teleport backward and frontward and another that can use a fast flight option moving forward. Even Heihachi has a backward run motion that other characters don't. Yoshimitsu has his fast backward spinning move that actually hurts him and has him lose health --> but has time and time again proven extremely useful as a movement tool for Yoshimitsu players. And then there's also the fact that certain characters like Paul and Nina have a qcb dash.

Do you play Tekken? lol.

Another example is punishment. In Tekken you always do your relevant max damage 10-15+ frame or whiff punisher, something every Tekken character has and must do. There isn't a character in Tekken where doing your max damage isn't the most optimal thing to do. Sometimes it's optimal to do a move that lets you run away. For example, with Dhalsim you usually throw your opponent away as a punish rather than do his max damage combo since that allows for him to turn the game into a match where he has the advantage.

And even in other defensive options, if you know someone is doing a low move, you do a low crush move, or a low parry. They're universal options, something everyone in the game has. Or vice versa if there's a high move coming you do a high crush, another tool everyone has. Simultaneously, there are universal homing moves that will beat someone trying to step (something that wasn't in Tekken pre-T6). All of these are things every character has and that's the root of the "homogeneity" comments. As long as you know the punishers/low-crush/high-crush/homing-moves/movement-execution you can play every character at a base level.

Now you're just reiterating Manny's comments here. Yes, we know characters have certain standard tools.

But again how do these standard tools prove homogeneity?

Let me reiterate again. These standard commonalities you are listing are only parts of a whole. You're exclusively focusing on these commonalities while ignoring the rest of the command list that offers divergences, variances, and intricacies at a greater level (many of which I listed).

I'll quote myself again going back to what I was telling Manny.

Tekken is not just a test of who's better at using their hopkick, 15-17 frame low poke, 10f jab, low crush, or whatever. The system is a lot more diverse and complex than that.

And you can't say that argument holds in every game. There are many characters in different fighting games that don't have guaranteed answers to every situation which demands intricate experimentation to solve the match ups.

Tekken does not have a guaranteed answer to every situation. lol. I'm loving the new directions you're going in.

 

[Sayah]

I don't intend to be rude but it's kind of annoying to keep reiterating myself.

Your hate for Tekken 7 is justifiable AAK but I fear you're also letting that blind your perspective on the franchise as a whole. You're starting to sound like those people in FGW (*cough* Karsticles *cough* Kirblar) that haven't either touched the franchise since Tekken 3 or maybe played Tekken 6 for a grand total of 10 minutes but still pretend to be leading authorities on the game. It's to the point that you're contradicting past statements you've made.

I'll post your favorite gif as an end reminder. Let me know how you explain yoshimitsu movement and game plan/strategy as standardized and homogeneous across the entire cast.

In the meantime, I am kind of done discussing this until someone can provide me with a legitimate counter argument that isn't grasping at straws.

Edit: I reread this post and it sounds very mean. That's not the intention so sorry if any offense is taken. I usually agree with everything you say AAK (and manny as well) but not this time. To see the same person that once said a single Tekken character can be played in multiple ways and has different playstyles based on who's playing him/her change to a new perspective that says all characters have the same core game plan and homogeneous movement options is shocking for me, to say the least.

 

[AAK]

We're reaching a point where we just have to agree to disagree if we can't find a common ground on that core concept.

CAT stance physically is something unique and exclusive to Anna but the concept of what the CAT stance is supposed to implement in the match is a concept that's shared by everyone in the cast. It's a tool that induces a mixup at the position between you and your opponent. When Jun does does a move on hit that leaves her in a genjitsu state it's the same concept as the CAT stance or a Mishima at the range where he'll be applying the wavedash mixups. Yes, I do know that Anna's CAT stance will auto-launch a low but so can any other character in that same position, it's just that they need to manually input the command. That core concept of putting your opponent in that position is shared with the entire cast. The manifestation of that concept is unique with every cast member I agree but the argument I'm making is that concept is general.

About the movement: teleports, flights , and Heihachi runaways are not legitimate movement options. The player has no agency or control over the magnitude and speed of them. Nobody that's good at Tekken uses those things as movement tools. I see people use the teleports and flight modes when imposing their mixups for the reward they represent, not as a traversal tool. The Heihachi runaway has horrible recovery and there's more than enough time for someone to dash into Heihachi and place them in a bad position where he/she has to eat a mixup. You only ever see it used as tag cancels or end of round timer-scans where blocking a mixup isn't going to hurt the Heihachi player's chances of a victory. The Yoshimitsu example is valid because Yoshi still has control over when he can cancel his meditation shenanigans but that is an exception (and is something I'd personally love to see many other characters have). Another exception is Steve because using the forward ducks and flicker stances can still be cancelled which allows for Steve to remain in control. But other than that, it's pretty unanimous how the movement in Tekken works and it's why so many competent Tekken players can successfully control a large number of the cast.

Let me reiterate again. These standard commonalities you are listing are only parts of a whole. You're exclusively focusing on these commonalities while ignoring the rest of the command list that offers divergences, variances, and intricacies at a greater level (many of which I listed).

I'll quote myself again going back to what I was telling Manny.

Tekken is not just a test of who's better at using their hopkick, 15-17 frame low poke, 10f jab, low crush, or whatever. The system is a lot more diverse and complex than that.

But the entire command list falls under each of those sections. Yes the command list is vast and fun to explore but once you look at those moves for how they must be implemented and what they represent for the system of the game you can single out and focus on a few to make do. It is unfortunate but that's the reality where the utility of a good chunk of those moves aren't all that valuable when there are others from that same position which help so much more. I still enjoy using a lot of them when I play for the sake of beholding the spectacle when landing them but I personally know I could have used a much smarter move in those situations. I'm not saying most of Tekken's movelist is useless. Complete mastery of a character will definitely happen when you thoroughly understand each move Mr. Naps style. But you can still play each character quite competently just by knowing your core punisher/crush/tracking moves.

I'll close by just saying this. When you start a match in Tekken there is a certain flowchart in your mind. You will space and try to bait an action from your opponent that you can punish or get into a position where you can impose a mixup that he/she'll be forced to guess. You have that type of flowchart in your mind regardless of what character you play. Of coarse the individual moves you use to accomplish the goals of that flowchart is unique but that core gameplan is indeed homogenous. In many other games you have characters where the flowcharts are extremely outlandish when comparing different characters. Some characters desperately only want always be in the opponents face regardless of the situation, while others play traditionally, while a few are only ever going to try to run away constantly.

EDIT: Just saw the above post, Don't worry, I'm not taking anything personally. I'm just engaging in the argument. And in the end, this whole ordeal started with this statement:

To phrase it better, Characters are better defined in 2D games because they're not as homogenized as Tekken characters are. While in Tekken besides a few cast members, you can pretty much play the cast the same way while at the same time having very loose archetypes.

Hence, the argument was always about the homogeneity of Tekken relative to 2D fighters. And in that comparison with 2D fighters, I think Mike is right.

And I don't hate Tekken 7, I simply think it's not what the series needs right now.

 

[Sayah]

We're reaching a point where we just have to agree to disagree if we can't find a common ground on that core concept.

CAT stance physically is something unique and exclusive to Anna but the concept of what the CAT stance is supposed to implement in the match is a concept that's shared by everyone in the cast. It's a tool that induces a mixup at the position between you and your opponent. When Jun does does a move on hit that leaves her in a genjitsu state it's the same concept as the CAT stance or a Mishima at the range where he'll be applying the wavedash mixups. Yes, I do know that Anna's CAT stance will auto-launch a low but so can any other character in that same position, it's just that they need to manually input the command. That core concept of putting your opponent in that position is shared with the entire cast. The manifestation of that concept is unique with every cast member I agree but the argument I'm making is that concept is general.

About the movement: teleports, flights , and Heihachi runaways are not legitimate movement options. The player has no agency or control over the magnitude and speed of them. Nobody that's good at Tekken uses those things as movement tools. I see people use the teleports and flight modes when imposing their mixups for the reward they represent, not as a traversal tool. The Heihachi runaway has horrible recovery and there's more than enough time for someone to dash into Heihachi and place them in a bad position where he/she has to eat a mixup. You only ever see it used as tag cancels or end of round timer-scans where blocking a mixup isn't going to hurt the Heihachi player's chances of a victory. The Yoshimitsu example is valid because Yoshi still has control over when he can cancel his meditation shenanigans but that is an exception (and is something I'd personally love to see many other characters have). Another exception is Steve because using the forward ducks and flicker stances can still be cancelled which allows for Steve to remain in control. But other than that, it's pretty unanimous how the movement in Tekken works and it's why so many competent Tekken players can successfully control a large number of the cast.



But the entire command list falls under each of those sections. Yes the command list is vast and fun to explore but once you look at those moves for how they must be implemented and what they represent for the system of the game you can single out and focus on a few to make do. It is unfortunate but that's the reality where the utility of a good chunk of those moves aren't all that valuable when there are others from that same position which help so much more. I still enjoy using a lot of them when I play for the sake of beholding the spectacle when landing them but I personally know I could have used a much smarter move in those situations. I'm not saying most of Tekken's movelist is useless. Complete mastery of a character will definitely happen when you thoroughly understand each move Mr. Naps style. But you can still play each character quite competently just by knowing your core punisher/crush/tracking moves.

I'll close by just saying this. When you start a match in Tekken there is a certain flowchart in your mind. You will space and try to bait an action from your opponent that you can punish or get into a position where you can impose a mixup that he/she'll be forced to guess. You have that type of flowchart in your mind regardless of what character you play. Of coarse the individual moves you use to accomplish the goals of that flowchart is unique but that core gameplan is indeed homogenous. In many other games you have characters where the flowcharts are extremely outlandish when comparing different characters. Some characters desperately only want always be in the opponents face regardless of the situation, while others play traditionally, while a few are only ever going to try to run away constantly.

EDIT: Just saw the above post, Don't worry, I'm not taking anything personally. I'm just engaging in the argument. And in the end, this whole ordeal started with this statement:



Hence, the argument was always about the homogeneity of Tekken relative to 2D fighters. And in that comparison with 2D fighters, I think Mike is right.

And I don't hate Tekken 7, I simply think it's not what the series needs right now.

If you knew about Alisa's flight options (which you do), you would know you can cancel it. Also adding in this edit for more clarification: Also, having no control over speed and agency does not mean it's not a legitimate movement option. Nina's qcb as standalone has no speed or agency control. King's spin backward doesn't have agency or control but it's a legitimate movement option used to punish tag crashes. So on and so forth.

This is just annoying now because I'm not seeing anything in your post that disproves what I'm saying. You're trying to find justifications but it's not working. Next you'll say Xiaoyu's move cancel animations into backturn are also homogeneous game strategy standardized across the entire cast. Just that single Yoshimitsu gif is enough to say that movement and game plan/strategy is not homogeneous across the Tekken cast.

But yeah, I'm done constantly reiterating that point.

Moving on, I have MKX. Probably will give this clunky franchise a chance again and see if I like it.

 

[Manbig]

Sayah, I am going to be clear here.

Look at any tournament footage. I would put my life fucking savings on betting that almost all of the footage involving the best players of the game, regardless of character, will be them generally utilizing the same gameplan.

Stances do not change this much, if at all. Everyone playing Tekken "properly" is doing what 2D fighting game players call footsies.

Every character is out to use their toolset to make a big mistake by whiffing a move and killing you for it.

Every. Single. One.

You bring up examples like stances. What is a stance? Generally, it's going to be just another way to get stronger versions of the SAME OPTIONS THAT ARE A PART OF EVERY CHARACTERS TOOLSET.

Examples that go a little further that actually drastically change match ups? Capos relaxed, Lei's playdead, Ling's AoP, and to a lesser extent, whatever the hell Leo's crouch stance is called.

Other examples of unique things that change the match up? Feng's cancels into backsteps/sways to create space.

That's pretty much it right there. In a series that has had 2 games in a row with over 40 characters, you have this tiny handful of characters that have options that truly change the way you have to approach your match up, and even then, this is nowhere near the drastic playstyles that have to be implemented for different match ups in a 2D fighter. Street Fighter isn't even as crazy as it gets when you have Ark Sys games that have characters with completely different game changing mechanics like Rachel controlling wind in Blazblue, or Tager magnetizing his opponent to make it easier to grab them.

This is something that should be fairly obvious to anyone that has watched even just one Tekken tournament. This is why one of the criticisms of the game that viewers have is that "oh it always looks the same." You know why they say that? Because it fucking DOES. It is really that simple. Having a few characters with some stances doesn't really change any of that shit. Everyone is playing the game with every character using the same general strategy using very similar tools.

That is 3D fighters.

That is Tekken.

If you really cannot grasp this concept, then I have nothing more to say. I'm done.

EDIT: Forgot to mention Bears and Zafina for low profile stances.

 

[Sayah]

Sayah, I am going to be clear here.

Look at any tournament footage. I would put my life fucking savings on betting that almost all of the footage involving the best players of the game, regardless of character, will be them generally utilizing the same gameplan.

Stances do not change this much, if at all. Everyone playing Tekken "properly" is doing what 2D fighting game players call footsies.

Every character is out to use their toolset to make a big mistake by whiffing a move and killing you for it.

Every. Single. One.

You bring up examples like stances. What is a stance? Generally, it's going to be just another way to get stronger versions of the SAME OPTIONS THAT ARE A PART OF EVERY CHARACTERS TOOLSET.

Examples that go a little further that actually drastically change match ups? Capos relaxed, Lei's playdead, Ling's AoP, and to a lesser extent, whatever the hell Leo's crouch stance is called.

Other examples of unique things that change the match up? Feng's cancels into backsteps/sways to create space.

That's pretty much it right there. In a series that has had 2 games in a row with over 40 characters, you have this tiny handful of characters that have options that truly change the way you have to approach your match up, and even then, this is nowhere near the drastic playstyles that have to be implemented for different match ups in a 2D fighter. Street Fighter isn't even as crazy as it gets when you have Ark Sys games that have characters with completely different game changing mechanics like Rachel controlling wind in Blazblue, or Tager magnetizing his opponent to make it easier to grab them.

This is something that should be fairly obvious to anyone that has watched even just one Tekken tournament. This is why one of the criticisms of the game that viewers have is that "oh it always looks the same." You know why they say that? Because it fucking DOES. It is really that simple. Having a few characters with some stances doesn't really change any of that shit. Everyone is playing the game with every character using the same general strategy using very similar tools.

That is 3D fighters.

That is Tekken.

If you really cannot grasp this concept, then I have nothing more to say. I'm done.

EDIT: Forgot to mention Bears and Zafina for low profile stances.

I'm really not reiterating everything I've already said because it still stands and you have not presented any productive counter argument.

I'll just reuse this gif:

You have visual proof in front of you that is the anti-thesis of everything you're saying.
Dispute it with merit and I'll look forward to responding then.

You guys really are grasping at straws to try and prove a point. AAK has gone has as far as contradicting a lot of his past statements about the franchise and you're just trying to rehash a failed argument by betting your life savings.

 

[DEATH™]

I do not want to butt in but both have merits. Yes anyone can play each and every characters in what I call "fundamentally sound" because they have the tools to do it, but there are tools for some/many characters that can make them play uniquely by themselves.

The problem is that we have this perception the the Tekken community that if you do not play by the fundamentals, you are gimmicky, and if the character was naturally played different, we call them gimmicky chars (Capos anyone?). This forces the balancing team to give chars more generic tools and minimize the unique effects. Also, it discourages people to play uniquely, even if they could. If a so-called gimmick gets popular they will nerf it to death because we complained about said gimmick.

That's why we probably won't see Capos, Lei, Zaf and the likes in this game... Same reason why oki as we know it was removed.

P.S. KOF XIV is shaping up to be good...

 

[GrayFoxPL]

So the fighting game panel was null?

 

[Sayah]

I do not want to butt in but both have merits. Yes anyone can play each and every characters in what I call "fundamentally sound" because they have the tools to do it, but there are tools for some/many characters that can make them play uniquely by themselves.

The problem is that we have this perception the the Tekken community that if you do not play by the fundamentals, you are gimmicky, and if the character was naturally played different, we call them gimmicky chars (Capos anyone?). This forces the balancing team to give chars more generic tools and minimize the unique effects. Also, it discourages people to play uniquely, even if they could. If a so-called gimmick gets popular they will nerf it to death because we complained about said gimmick.

That's why we probably won't see Capos, Lei, Zaf and the likes in this game... Same reason why oki as we know it was removed.

P.S. KOF XIV is shaping up to be good...

AAK and Manny are pretty much saying that Tekken is all about the fundamentals (doing your hopkick, doing your low pokes, low crush, etc.) and that's all you need to know. It's all about following the same mechanical boring format and there's no innovation in the game plan or strategy of a character because it's all the same for the entire fucking cast. I wouldn't be playing this game if that was the case.

Not following that; not agreeing with that; and will keep calling bullshit on that because I have multiple examples listed out that completely contradict and are the antithesis of everything they're saying (including the Yoshi gif above) and they have yet to provide any meaningful retort against it. I got a freakin Nina unblockable to land on KOR of all people during a tournament. Tell me that's strategy that's replicated across the entire cast - that every character can land unblockables with ease. As AAK himself so proudly says:

Again, Tekken is a massive, massive fighting game. Almost unanimously considered the fighting game with quantitatively the greatest number of mechanics and properties out of any other game in the genre.

Even if you can learn a base character by understanding 20 or so of their fundamental moves, that does not mean you're using a character to his/her optimal efficiency and that the other 80 moves they have suddenly can be thrown in the gutter. Part of the appeal in Tekken is having quantitatively the greatest number of mechanics and properties at your fingertips and learning how to be innovative in different situations with said moves. If Tekken is only about the basic pokes, punishers, low crushes, etc. then the Tekken team may as well remove all of the other clutter because it's useless and does not contribute at all to a character's strategic depth and individuality. In that case, all of the characters are homogeneous. They have the same 20 moves with different animations that they need and the other stuff (the backturn specialties, useful unblockables, stances, variable movement options, etc.) doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

 

[AAK]

You're straight up putting words into my mouth now. This is my quote:

Complete mastery of a character will definitely happen when you thoroughly understand each move Mr. Naps style. But you can still play each character quite competently just by knowing your core punisher/crush/tracking moves.

Playing competently with a few moves != throwing 80 moves into the gutter.

 

[Sayah]

Playing competently with a character also =/= playing optimally
Playing competently with a character also =/= playing homogeneously - the same as everyone else and not using an ounce of different strategy

If you agree the remaining 80% of the movelist is still relevant to playing optimally - then there you go. we can have different strategy beyond our fundamental pokes, punishers and launchers - and playstyles and game plans can and do vary. They are not homogeneous unless you want to say that 100% of the command list is the same across the board for every single character - at which point I will question you - why are you even playing such a boring game?

 

[AAK]

Our definitions of strategy are not aligned and hence we'll never come to an agreement. I'm speaking in the abstract sense while you are speaking about it in its physical manifestation. From your definition, you're right. There's nothing else left for me to say about this.

 

[Sayah]

Our definitions of strategy are not aligned and hence we'll never come to an agreement. I'm speaking in the abstract sense while you are speaking about it in its physical manifestation. From your definition, you're right. There's nothing else left for me to say about this.

The physical manifestation matters more than the abstract sense - and that's exactly how fighting game strategy should be approached - not abstractly but realistically and practically.

So thanks.

 

[Dereck]

So the fighting game panel was null?

Yeah

 

[GrayFoxPL]

In Tekken GAF we either are bitching about Tekken 7 or engaging in complex debate about metaphysics of hopkicks.

Yeah

Thanks.

 

[Sayah]

In Tekken GAF we either are bitching about Tekken 7 or engaging in complex debate about metaphysics of hopkicks.

Thanks.

Well, manny has bet his life savings on this.

All I have to do is provide him with playstyle variations in tournaments. JFJ alone is a good example - gets top 8 in almost every tournmanent he goes to and uses a completely unconventional "party" style as effective game strategy.

You even look at AO from EVO this year and he was using Alisa's flight movement and canceling the animation when necessary to create spacing diversions and effectively used her running knee (f,f+4?) into tackle several times, which payed dividends and isn't a move you would expect someone to use so often.

Tekken is just a list of multiple variables in place at a single time - and game plans will diversify accordingly. Kind of surprised/shocked to see some of the responses here to be honest.

 

[Doomshine]

The KOF 14 thread is like the bizzaro world version of this thread.

 

[sasuke_91]

You know what I find funny? KOF XIV will probably come out before Tekken 7 :'D

 

[Dereck]

Tekken 7 jokes aren't funny when they are true.

Final Fantasy XV will out before Tekken 7 lolololol

 

[Sayah]

We'll reach OT3 before Tekken 7 releases.

 

[Numb]

We'll reach OT3 before Tekken 7 releases.

 

[Dereck]

We'll reach OT3 before Tekken 7 releases.

 

[Creaking]

Dang, did OT2 really go faster than OT1? The content-starved are indeed chatty.

 

[sasuke_91]

Tekken 7 jokes aren't funny when they are true.

Final Fantasy XV will out before Tekken 7 lolololol

Final Fantasy XV
Kingdom Hearts 3
The Last Guardian
Shenmue 3

These games that were said to be dead or non-existent will probably release before Tekken 7.
I wouldn't be surprised if Half Life 3 got announced and would get a release before T7 does.

They should go the Bethesda way and announce the console release 3 months before releasing it.

 

[Pachimari]

At least there's only 5 days till new info right?

 

[Dereck]

At least there's only 5 days till new info right?

Yeah it's coming to XBOX ONE.

 

[MikeMyers]

Final Fantasy XV
Kingdom Hearts 3
The Last Guardian
Shenmue 3

These games that were said to be dead or non-existent will probably release before Tekken 7.
I wouldn't be surprised if Half Life 3 got announced and would get a release before T7 does.

They should go the Bethesda way and announce the console release 3 months before releasing it.

There is one game Tekken 7 will come out before.

Spoiler

Tekken x Street Fighter

 

[Dereck]

Tekken x Street Fighter's not coming out tho

 

[MikeMyers]

That's the joke.

 

[sasuke_91]

That's the joke.

That joke was so funny it broke my heart.

GGs boutdown. Playing Eddy with lag is probably equal to cheating

 

[Sayah]

Watched the Fighting Game Panel just now.
Was Harada joking or did he seriously get a drop in his pay grade over things he said? Hopefully not over all that Lucky Chloe stuff.

Dang, did OT2 really go faster than OT1? The content-starved are indeed chatty.

Well, I'm trying other stuff to make the wait easier.

MKX has been interesting so far. It looks really good. After getting a hang of it, it's not as clunky as I thought it would be. Much much better than Injustice.

 

[Cyber Caesar]

Watched the Fighting Game Panel just now.
Was Harada joking or did he seriously get a drop in his pay grade over things he said? Hopefully not over all that Lucky Chloe stuff.



Well, I'm trying other stuff to make the wait easier.

MKX has been interesting so far. It looks really good. After getting a hang of it, it's not as clunky as I thought it would be. Much much better than Injustice.

Fighting Game Panel
I could watch these type of talks all day.

 

[Dereck]

That joke was so funny it broke my heart.

GGs boutdown. Playing Eddy with lag is probably equal to cheating

I think we might be done man, the bulk of those matches I had to completely change my playstyle from serious to knucklehead just to accommodate for the lag.

 

[Pachimari]

I ordered Dead or Alive 5: Last Round. Hopefully I can get into that and make time progress until Tekken 7 releases on PlayStation 4. Oh, and Street Fighter V on PC too.

 

[sasuke_91]

I think we might be done man, the bulk of those matches I had to completely change my playstyle from serious to knucklehead just to accommodate for the lag.

It's too bad, but I agree. The lag makes our matches way too random, trying to play serious is as good as impossible.

I guess we tried, at least?

 

[Manbig]

The amusing thing about that dumb debate earlier is that not too long ago I would have agreed with Sayah. Then I played several different characters in a few of the recent 2D games and it reminded me of how radically different the match ups truly play out in comparison.

Sorry Sayah. Pointing out one example of Yoshi (who I forgot to include earlier) doesn't really prove anything when I'm talking about the grand scheme of things. It's still an absolute fraction of the overall cast. Also, even Yoshi is still generally using the same template outside of a handful of very specific things that he does.

Shoutouts to devastator for the find.

Tekken 7 Oki:

I just saw this. Reminds me of 5.0 Bryan after he wall combos you and you get terrified to stand up because of taunt, so he just cancels into d4 over and over again to hit you grounded. Can't tell if that person was trying to stand straight up or use the new "backroll" option and just getting hit because of it over and over again.

 

[AAK]

^^^
Doomshine reminded me that in TTT2 if you get hit while grounded you can techroll right after (i.e. Hwoarang does WS+3 and then does d/b+3 while staying grounded lets you techroll after eating that). I don't know if you still can in T7 or not. Maybe the fact that you're in the corner prevents the grounded player to reach a techrollable status fast enough before getting hit by another d+4? Maybe it's a special property when face down?

All I know is that in TTT2 you can forward/backroll and you'll reach a low wallsplat position that you can techroll directly after preventing that situation.

EDIT: after looking at the gif closely, I think the kazumi player was always either trying to quick rise or backroll each time. I think she could have tried to eat a single d+4 while remaining grounded and maybe the techroll would have opened up?

 

[Sayah]

The amusing thing about that dumb debate earlier is that not too long ago I would have agreed with Sayah. Then I played several different characters in a few of the recent 2D games and it reminded me of how radically different the match ups truly play out in comparison.

Sorry Sayah. Pointing out one example of Yoshi (who I forgot to include earlier) doesn't really prove anything when I'm talking about the grand scheme of things. It's still an absolute fraction of the overall cast. Also, even Yoshi is still generally using the same template outside of a handful of very specific things that he does.

Yoshi isn't the only example I provided.
I just had a gif on hand for him for demonstration purposes.
Read my previous posts.

 

[Dereck]

https://twitter.com/AvoidThePuddle/status/674030352537546752

 

[lupinko]

Or

 

[Rheon]

So this guy has convinced me we'll be hearing about the T7 expansion this Saturday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvbF5fJehcg

His reasoning is solid. Not sure what else Bamco could be teasing if it's not the expansion.

Also completely unrelated to the above, I found this on TZ and thought it was too hilarious not to share (semi-NSFW):

Spoiler

 

[Pachimari]

I wanna see Nina and Lei so bad. Especially if they get a redesign and maybe new animations.