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Tekken |OT2| Pulse of the Regionally Discriminated Knuckleheads
- Thread starter AAK
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Cyber Caesar
Member
MKX reveal at VGA. We need something Tekken 7 related at VGA.
The two people you can't thank enough for supporting Tekken.
https://twitter.com/Flying_Wonkey/status/669783676293484544
https://twitter.com/MarkMan23/status/671507512940720128
7ekken is on my hype radar again. Please be good.
It's absolutely the best looking fighting game out there right now (without customs).
But once you introduce bad Tag 2 era customs, that beautiful presentation sort of goes down the drain.
https://twitter.com/Flying_Wonkey/status/669783676293484544
https://twitter.com/MarkMan23/status/671507512940720128
7ekken is on my hype radar again. Please be good.
It's absolutely the best looking fighting game out there right now (without customs).
But once you introduce bad Tag 2 era customs, that beautiful presentation sort of goes down the drain.
Yeah, we do.
Tekken needs presence at a big event. While EVO has certainly grown over the past few years, it's nowhere close to the viewership you'll get with something like Sony's E3 conference. Not to mention most people at EVO care more about SF, Marvel, etc. and aren't really into Tekken.
I don't mean it literally. T7 does have the best backgrounds in the business and move animations that were unique in T6/TTT2. But the texture work on Jin's pants are even less detailed and have the same level of physics as Kyo's pants shown in the snippets of gameplay they've shown in the KOF14 trailers. Same things with those retarded wings on Kazumi.
Get hype.
For the moment
I'm still at the top of the Wall of F
ame as we're nearing 10k posts.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=955672
If Grayfox didn't have a six month ban, he'd probably beat me. lol.
Sh
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=955672
If Grayfox didn't have a six month ban, he'd probably beat me. lol.
It means you really like us.
MikeBreezy92
Member
that's because tekken's character's aren't as unique as 2D characters.
Wish we had characters that played the different archetypes purely too.
Don't know how it would work tho
He don't mess
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Not in agreement with this statement.
MikeBreezy92
Member
and Dereck just kicked my ass 5-0, I needed though. Haven't really been in the competitive spirit since FR. That was a good wakeup asskicking though.
I often hear people say this about Tekken (including Aris on stream) and it annoys me because I don't think it's true. Yes, 2D fighters have many archetypes and can vary greatly character to character based on abilities (e.g. teleporting, flying, projectiles, etc.). However, I also don't like it when people generalize Tekken characters as all being "the same." It's really annoying to hear that when the series has characters that do vary drastically and that do follow variable archetypes.
Steve is a shining example of this but beyond that, you also have characters like Lei and Hwoarang that will play completely differently from the other characters based on their many stances. Alisa has fast flight options that are very pivotal to her play and exclusive to her in the game. The only thing that comes close is Jinpachi's teleportation, which again is a widely used mechanic for him and isn't available to other characters. Yoshimitsu can also teleport but it's not as useful. You can also look at Kuma/Panda when they're not bipedal; you can look at characters that have various backturn options that others lack (e.g. Lili, Xiaoyu); you can look at characters that are very floor friendly (e.g. Lei, Chreddy); You can look at characters that are command-throw specialists (e.g. King, Williams); You can look at a character like Unknown that has a legit pillar mechanic that no other character has; it goes on. These are things that make characters unique.
Everyone doesn't just have similar high, mid, and low attacks along with the same/similar spacing options. Characters can definitely be placed into different archetypes based on what unique mechanics and traits they have. Playstyles will also vary based on that.
Tekken 7 is broadening that focus even further with characters like Claudio (who has property variations and different options based on if he's in Starburst mode or not) and Chloe (who's supposedly a very rhythmic character; though, I haven't used her yet).
Anyone want to disagree with me on this?
Tekken-GAF is awesome indeed.
Except Sasukewhen using Ling.
A lot of us have been sour lately because of Tekken 7 but we're still awesome.
I only come to this forum for Tekken.
Sayah I agree there is some variation in that sense of offense, but there is sooooo much more Tekken can do to differentiate its cast.
1. How about completely unique walking and running across the cast that have a massive difference in speeds, animations, distance, moves that come out of it.
2. How about a character that doesn't really have strikes in the generic sense, i.e. pressing 1 with a character does a grab or a hold... maybe a BJJ style character
3. Make Virtua Fighter levels of hit reactions where big characters have their own animations when launched forcing unique combo's on them.
4. How about set-up style characters that can place something on the screen (like Takeda's Ronin in MKX)
5. How about a character that has his/her movelist evolve as the match progresses (an example is like Shun in VF or any 2D game where characters have more meter)
6. How about characters that can get special movement options when their backs are against the wall that aren't just limited to the generic b,b,u/b command the whole cast have
7. Now that Tekken has Kuni and Yoshi and all those customs... why not fully integrate weapon based characters where spacing will be a huge factor like in SC but with Tekken's style.
Those are just the some of the ideas I have for Tekken to evolve and so much more. There are soooo many avenues already in the Tekken system that they can use to individualize the cast even further to rival the variation in 2D games. Tekken does apply some of it with a few characters like Steve/Capo's/Lei but it should spread to the rest of them as well.
1. How about completely unique walking and running across the cast that have a massive difference in speeds, animations, distance, moves that come out of it.
2. How about a character that doesn't really have strikes in the generic sense, i.e. pressing 1 with a character does a grab or a hold... maybe a BJJ style character
3. Make Virtua Fighter levels of hit reactions where big characters have their own animations when launched forcing unique combo's on them.
4. How about set-up style characters that can place something on the screen (like Takeda's Ronin in MKX)
5. How about a character that has his/her movelist evolve as the match progresses (an example is like Shun in VF or any 2D game where characters have more meter)
6. How about characters that can get special movement options when their backs are against the wall that aren't just limited to the generic b,b,u/b command the whole cast have
7. Now that Tekken has Kuni and Yoshi and all those customs... why not fully integrate weapon based characters where spacing will be a huge factor like in SC but with Tekken's style.
Those are just the some of the ideas I have for Tekken to evolve and so much more. There are soooo many avenues already in the Tekken system that they can use to individualize the cast even further to rival the variation in 2D games. Tekken does apply some of it with a few characters like Steve/Capo's/Lei but it should spread to the rest of them as well.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Yeah that's a really stupid opinion I wish Aris would stop propagating. I remember when he said that on the podcast with Bronson and Bronson gave him some shit for it. He is entitled to his opinion but that doesn't mean it sucks.
Also you guys are fucking crazy if you think there is variety in 2D games. It's been the same archetypes forever. It's half the problem with 2D games and why it's much easier to bounce in-between 2D games than it is 3D games. Ryu does the exact same shit in every game, he either does it more effectively or less effectively. The only variation on this is Denjin Ryu but that's still play Ryu 95% of the time like normal and then 5% of the time going for a set up.
Also you guys are fucking crazy if you think there is variety in 2D games. It's been the same archetypes forever. It's half the problem with 2D games and why it's much easier to bounce in-between 2D games than it is 3D games. Ryu does the exact same shit in every game, he either does it more effectively or less effectively. The only variation on this is Denjin Ryu but that's still play Ryu 95% of the time like normal and then 5% of the time going for a set up.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
IMO Unbreakable grabs shouldn't even exist. Unbreakable command throws are a product of an era where all throws were unbreakable. Remember until ST you couldn't break throws in Street Fighter II. That game set the rules. There is really no reason for command grabs to no be breakable. They already are faster and do more damage than normal throws. The only thing making command grabs unbreakable does it hurt balance because you need to limit a character's tools because the grab is so powerful.
Also there are archetypes in Tekken but since the characters are so varied they are for the most part all their own archetype. Mishima is totally an archetype, Lucha (AK, King, Rolex), Kazama but characters are too varied to really put them into archetypes unlike in 2D games. Like Paul and Wang both have Deathfists and a crouch dash but they play nothing a like. Baek and Hwoarang both have stances, wave dash, and use Taekowndo but they play nothing a like.
Playing the big wrestler dude that's slow. Needs that throw as a threat. Always like using them.
Although when normal characters have them i never really liked it.
As much as i like Mika
ZeroTheShadow
Member
He doesn't have to be slow. Gief isn't slow in ST. He is slow because his throw is unbreakable not the other way around. Also again if a throw does big damage, fast, and has great range, that should be enough in a balanced game to compensate for slower movement speed. The ONLY reason command grabs are unbreakable in 2D games is because they were in Street Fighter II.
Throws are borderline useless in Tekken the way they are now in top level play. If properly balanced, I'm for unbreakable throws. Akira's guard break in VF can loosely count as an unbreakable throw considering it's speed, unblockable property, and guaranteed damage. Again, if Tekken evolved its design, unbreakable throws could work.
The unbreakable part adds to not wanting to get hit by it at all since you can't even break it.
Letting them in to do it in the first place should n't even happen. Although the speed,range and damage on top of that makes it crazy. Would sacrifice one of those to keep the unbreakable part. Damage maybe..
ZeroTheShadow
Member
King is Top 5 free in Tekken 7 in large part due to his throw game, how are throws useless? You seem to make a lot of assumptions about this game without playing it. Generic throws suck yes but any character that has any sort of command grab are just fine. Again throws should never be unbreakable.
That makes no sense. You didn't want to get hit by Cammy's back throw in AE2012 because there were unbloackables off of it but it was still breakable. You don't want to get hit by Wanning Moon but it's still breakable. It's silly. There is no reason for throws to be unbreakable, sorry.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
.
Look at top 4 of Mastercup 2015, see how many throws were landed. Then watch top 4 of Mastercup 2014 and behold how many more throws landed.
And I'm not even going to go into tier arguments that can only lead to subjective back and forths. All I'm going to say is that for the first time ever King didn't get a single new throw in a numbered Tekken game. So if King's throw game is identical to TTT2, how does his throw game make him a better character rather than the other changes?
And I'm not even going to go into tier arguments that can only lead to subjective back and forths. All I'm going to say is that for the first time ever King didn't get a single new throw in a numbered Tekken game. So if King's throw game is identical to TTT2, how does his throw game make him a better character rather than the other changes?
ZeroTheShadow
Member
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Characters are weaker because of unbreakable command throws not the other way around. Grapplers can bait out throw techs just like every other character now that throws are breakable. It actually makes them more dangers in some ways. Would Geif really be a worse character if SPD was punishable but he got better normal for frame trapping? Would it hurt the concept of a grappler trying to close the distance and the threat they are in close? No. The throw is still super fast and can punish things most normal can't, it still has way more range, more damage, better oki. This is my case and what I believe. Unbreakable throws are a stupid relict from the SFII era that unfortunately is a design trope of 2D games that remains intact today.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Why are you basing your argument on a situational moment like a floor break when I'm talking about generic neutral game?
If we're going to talk about unique situations, then Tekken already has unbreakable grabs. You can't break back-turned grabs. And in T6, you couldn't break King's b+1+2 grab.
If we're going to talk about unique situations, then Tekken already has unbreakable grabs. You can't break back-turned grabs. And in T6, you couldn't break King's b+1+2 grab.
Doesn't seem like it will change anytime soon when they are built around these throws(with all the properties).Too much effort when it was like that for decades.
Love me some but i see what you mean. It's why i even play them outside of 3D games. You chain grabs on people with King or Lisa and they salt. Do the same in 2D it's alright.
Cos that's what they are supposed to do in their minds.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Throw Break? Floor Break you mean? AAK stop strawmaning my argument. Throws are not borderline useless in Tekken 7 which is what you said. Top Players say King on the floor break stage is better than Shaheen. There are tons of throws that on floor break stage that make them super strong and as long as you have command throws which lots of characters have, the throw game is the same as Tag 2 which is solid. Also throws in the neutral game almost makes no sense. The uses of throws in neutral like King using GS and iSW to interrupt or pressure are still there just like before but throws are used in mix ups. Throws are almost never used in neutral unless you are Zangeif in AE2012 or Ultra with his dumb SPD range trying to grab limbs. Grabs a mix up tools in general, not part of the neutral.
Okay fine, throws are not useless in ONE stage in Tekken 7. And sure, if you give every character a throw the same speed of iSW and Giant Swing or something that juggles I'll take back my statement.
But again, you have a game where there's no more mixup between throws and you only need to guess between a single button or both butons AND you have to deal with the extended Tekken Revolution throw break timing. Hence Throws are exponentially weaker in T7 and in TTT2.
And you keep bringing up command throws, let's see who in the cast has that:
Heihachi: nope, either break 1 or 1+2
Yoshimitsu/Law/Steve/Asuka/: nope, either break 2 or 1+2
Kazuya/Claudio/Katarina/LC/Josie/Kazumi/Lars/Lili/Leo/Feng/Alisa/Shaheen/Gigas/Bryan: nope press any button or 1+2
Only characters that have command grabs are Dragunov/Paul/Jin/DJin/Hwoarang/Jack/King.
Very well, for 7 characters, throws aren't all that useless... but they still have extra throw break time which still shows they're unconditionally weaker than TTT2.
If you give every character a command throw, then that could alleviate the issue. But aside from that small category of characters, I stand by my statement that throws are pretty damn weak to the point where I don't see the value in going for them when you're at a high level of play.
EDIT: And I completely forgot, Throws can now be counterhit too! So the whole tactic of using iSW/Giant Swing to break pressure isn't really all that valid anymore.
But again, you have a game where there's no more mixup between throws and you only need to guess between a single button or both butons AND you have to deal with the extended Tekken Revolution throw break timing. Hence Throws are exponentially weaker in T7 and in TTT2.
And you keep bringing up command throws, let's see who in the cast has that:
Heihachi: nope, either break 1 or 1+2
Yoshimitsu/Law/Steve/Asuka/: nope, either break 2 or 1+2
Kazuya/Claudio/Katarina/LC/Josie/Kazumi/Lars/Lili/Leo/Feng/Alisa/Shaheen/Gigas/Bryan: nope press any button or 1+2
Only characters that have command grabs are Dragunov/Paul/Jin/DJin/Hwoarang/Jack/King.
Very well, for 7 characters, throws aren't all that useless... but they still have extra throw break time which still shows they're unconditionally weaker than TTT2.
If you give every character a command throw, then that could alleviate the issue. But aside from that small category of characters, I stand by my statement that throws are pretty damn weak to the point where I don't see the value in going for them when you're at a high level of play.
EDIT: And I completely forgot, Throws can now be counterhit too! So the whole tactic of using iSW/Giant Swing to break pressure isn't really all that valid anymore.
MikeBreezy92
Member
To phrase it better, Characters are better defined in 2D games because they're not as homogenized as Tekken characters are. While in Tekken besides a few cast members, you can pretty much play the cast the same way while at the same time having very loose archetypes.
I always thought throws in Tekken are bad due to huge startup and being able to break them from reaction so I was surprised throws were made even worse for Tekken 7.
Also, AFAIK the CH only happens when the throw and the move impact on the same frame. A strange decision but not as bad as being able to break normal throws with any button.
Also, AFAIK the CH only happens when the throw and the move impact on the same frame. A strange decision but not as bad as being able to break normal throws with any button.
Terareflection
Member
The character models are more important to me than backgrounds, so I think SF5 looks a lot better.
I know AAK is joking, but KOFXIV looks worse than Maximum Impact. It's like a PS1 game.
Tekken-GAF is awesome indeed.
Except Sasukewhen using Ling
huehuehue
Been a while since we last played. I'll tell you when I'm Online tommorow
Both character models and backgrounds matter to me.
Tekken 7's backgrounds are definitely superior to SFV but the character modeling is spotty.
If I had to take the entire cast from both games and make an average quality comparison for character modeling, SFV wins out for sure.
If I had to take the single best character model from the two games and compare, Tekken 7 wins out for me for sure.
No.
I'm providing you with multiple specific examples of how the cast is not as homogenized as it's often claimed. Instead of providing counter examples, you're sort of just restating what you already stated without any backup.
Not to generalize across the entire sub-genre, but do most (or any) 2D fighters have characters that can lay on the ground for extended periods of time and still fight? Do 2D fighters have characters that can stay or fight back and forth in backturn position for prolonged periods of time?
You're just ignoring the multiple nuances that are in games like Tekken and putting out a blanket statement that Tekken cast is largely homogeneous.
Some nice ideas AAK.
Wow!!
Jacobus' Hwoarang video is at 0.5 million views already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rniWrtAiWuU
Lei video at 238k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8kN5uluIi0
Edit: Maybe b/c it was shared on Tekken facebook page, which has 3 million+ followers.
Edit 2: These hit and sound effects......
Jacobus' Hwoarang video is at 0.5 million views already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rniWrtAiWuU
Lei video at 238k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8kN5uluIi0
Edit: Maybe b/c it was shared on Tekken facebook page, which has 3 million+ followers.
Edit 2: These hit and sound effects......
EVERY character deserves to be as ambitious design wise and unique as Steve.
And I don't see how a 3D space nullifies a set-up based character. It's something that's never been done before and deserves a chance to be tested.
And Claudio's powerup is just a one time thing that extinguishes like Leo's powerup from f,f+2. I'm talking about progression to the extent where there are multiple stages of levelling up. Each level has new strings, new punishers, new frame data, and new move ranges.
And I don't see how a 3D space nullifies a set-up based character. It's something that's never been done before and deserves a chance to be tested.
And Claudio's powerup is just a one time thing that extinguishes like Leo's powerup from f,f+2. I'm talking about progression to the extent where there are multiple stages of levelling up. Each level has new strings, new punishers, new frame data, and new move ranges.
Master Thespian
Member
I feel like anytime someone thinks 2D long range gameplay won't work in a 3D game it's because they are mentally referencing the times it hasn't worked in the past because it was poorly implemented. Interestingly enough, Pokken's field phase gameplay shows how projectiles and traps can work properly in 3D space. Generally speaking, the answer is as simple as wider projectiles/traps that can't be sidestepped as easily from close to mid range and the ability to put more than one object on screen at a time.
1. A lot of characters besides Steve are also ambitious. I have already given multiple examples if you were reading. Characters like Lei and Hwoarang are even more ambitious than Steve or have evolved over time to become so.
And I disagree that every character needs to be Steve levels of non-traditional. It's good to have simple characters (like Paul, Feng) as well and there are many people who prefer that.
2. 3D arenas are far more vast and there's a lot of territory to cover, not to mention stages with multiple floor breaks, wall breaks and balcony breaks. Either a setup character would have to be made super annoying where he/she sets up shit all over the stage so the opponent is bound to get caught at some point.....or the setup options are limited and the chances of getting caught are low.
Plus, as I mentioned, even if it can be worked out, I don't need that sort of shit in Tekken. It's a martial arts game. Not a "let me setup booby traps everywhere" game. It would just be an annoying character to deal with.
3. Claudio's powerup isn't comparable to Leo's because Claudio gets far more options out of starburst and many more chances to re-flame.
And I don't think a character needs to be extensive to the point of having several levels of new strings, punishers, etc. People already shy away from Tekken because the matchup knowledge is so monstrous. Adding several layers to a single character will only expound on that.
Of course projectiles are easily do-able in 3D games like Pokken, Naruto, DBZ, etc. These games are working on a field level instead of a confined camera angle.
And FYI, Namco has already made Eliza for those close-range projectiles.
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