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Tekken |OT2| Pulse of the Regionally Discriminated Knuckleheads
- Thread starter AAK
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And the first version of Tekken 4 was a completely different beast from Tekken 3. The first version of Tekken 5 was a completely different beast from Tekken 4. Not gonna comment on SC2 since I've never played SC1. Even before their updates & console versions they were true sequels.
Unless you can defend it with a real argument that's just a blank statement.
Bugs Bunny
Banned
I'm going to apply your logic to almost every version of Tekken AAK.
Tekken 2 is just Tekken 1 with better graphics
Tekken 3 is just Tekken 2 with SideStep
Tekken Tag is just Tekken 3 with Tag
Tekken 5 is just Tekken 3 with walls
Tekken 6 is just Tekken 5 with bound & rage
Tekken Tag 2 is just Tekken 6 with Tag
Tekken 7 is just Tekken 6 with supers & armor moves.
Tekken 2 is just Tekken 1 with better graphics
Tekken 3 is just Tekken 2 with SideStep
Tekken Tag is just Tekken 3 with Tag
Tekken 5 is just Tekken 3 with walls
Tekken 6 is just Tekken 5 with bound & rage
Tekken Tag 2 is just Tekken 6 with Tag
Tekken 7 is just Tekken 6 with supers & armor moves.
DEATH™;157856359 said:
Well, AAK did a great reply for me but to give my own answer as well:
1. The customization color schemes are hideous for T7 because they're based entirely off the TTT2 system, which has the tendency to have very bright sharp and blinding colors almost not that far off from the neons seen in SFXTK. In contrast, Tekken 6 was more limited with color schemes because it didn't give you a whole palette to choose from but it was better in the long run because the options you were given didn't completely ruin the visual appeal of the game. TTT2 is also kind of trying to be silly/goofy and is a side spinoff game so it's not as much of an issue for me in that but Tekken 7 is a brand new game running on Unreal Engine 4 and then it's using color schemes that are completely distracting.
2. @Death Everyone knows Tekken 6 had a much better customization system than TTT2. My only point was, if you're going to recycle, at least use the more high end stuff. Why rely on the inferior product?
Bugs Bunny
Banned
AAK stop using Tekken 4 as this great divide that makes Tekken 5 seem so different. Tekken 5 went back to the basics of Tekken 3. It was hardly a huge change. Tekken 4 was the only huge gameplay departure & it was terrible.
Hey, I've been very positive for this game and maintained my enthusiasm for a long time and still am actually. Just look at my avatar.
But I'm not going to swallow myself in hype and completely ignore the aspects I don't like. What they're doing with customs right now and the general direction of costume design is not something that's appealing to me very much right now. I sound like MoonsaultSlayer because he's always harping on this point but man, they BETTER have an option to disable customs when facing others online. Or give me a cross-platform play PC version.
I am doubting they're going to remove simple content like customs from the console version that was seen in the arcades but who knows,.
Usually, people don't harp for content to be removed from a game but I'm really hoping these color schemes and old customs don't make it into the final release.
You mention so many of those mechanics as trivial things. You claimed I was basing my arguments of false equivalence but your posts make it sound like adding a sidestep in Tekken 3 is as big of a change as adding an Armor Move in Tekken 7. Take a step back and look at those things the other games introduced.
Do you realize how big of a factor something like walls did for Tekken? Do you realize how big of a factor the concept of bound had on the game. How about posting the gravity changes of the game was affected changing the pace and decisions? You also ignored a lot of universal system changes like adding tech rolls, low parries, and especially the crush system. How about the magnitude by which forward dashes, sidesteps, and backdashes played an affect on the overall game styles between those games? Because those things were vastly different between those old sequels while Tekken 7 is identical to T6/TTT2/TR.
And looking back at Tekken 4 yes it was broken....but how about giving that game the same treatment as Tekken 5 and Tekken 6 did? How about giving Tekken 4 a Bloodline Rebellion that gave the developers a chance to fix the game the same way the other games after got their chances?
EDIT: And even though I've been saying this since 2014, it goes without saying that Tekken 1-5 all evolved their character designs. That also helps in magnitudes helping everyone see the new title as a brand new sequel rather than an expansion.
Hey, I've been very positive for this game and maintained my enthusiasm for a long time and still am actually. Just look at my avatar.
But I'm not going to swallow myself in hype and completely ignore the aspects I don't like. What they're doing with customs right now and the general direction of costume design is not something that's appealing to me very much right now. I sound like MoonsaultSlayer because he's always harping on this point but man, they BETTER have an option to disable customs when facing others online. Or give me a cross-platform play PC version.
I am doubting they're going to remove simple content like customs from the console version that was seen in the arcades but who knows,.
Usually, people don't harp for content to be removed from a game but I'm really hoping these color schemes and old customs don't make it into the final release.
I'm totally with you on the customization part. It's shit, and neither do I understand, why they are going this way. The options are absolutely hideous and they should give the players a choice of seeing the customs or not online.
Bugs Bunny
Banned
Also AAK you animation comparisons are silly at best. You have 5 new characters in Tekken 7 as of now, all with over 50+ new unique animated moves. There are more new animations in Tekken 7 with those characters than will be in the entity of SFV. That's what I mean by false equvaliency. You expect 10x the work out of the Tekken staff. Poorly animating 18 normals & 3 specials compared to move lists in the 100s is stupid.
TTT2's customs don't let you customize individual parts like hands, ankles, upper body, lower body, arms, etc. Tekken 6 allowed you to be very creative with each design.
Tekken 6 also had predetermined colors and a large variety of them BUT thankfully had nothing that was disgustingly obnoxious.
Tekken 6's customs were also character specific and reflected the design of the character:
It wasn't random nonsense like Heihachi with a weird T-Shirt and leather pants.
But most of all, the Tekken 6 designs had actual effort put into them. Their clothes shared the cloth effects of the default designs while looking at TTT2's letterman jackets and such that would just stick to the character like some PS1 asset.
The thing is TTT2 gets a free pass because we understood they had to make concessions to let 4 characters be on the screen while Tekken 6 only had to worry about 2.
Tekken 7 doesn't have that same limitation so going with TTT2's primitive, obnoxious, and ugly system rathar than Tekken 6's that was the greatest system in all of FG's is a backward decision.
That is what exactly what I don't get, why people are focusing on what is not there instead of what is there...
TTT2's one darn innovative customization system that did something that no FG has ever done so far... which is DECALS. Decals pretty much had you over the keys to making custom "textures" to your customizations.
There is a reason that the "cloth effects" aren't there for those types of clothes that you can decal over. Not even considering the performance issues for a decaled custom, if I use a different "material" to a model, the same rendering effect will happen onto that custom, no matter what the color is. There is a some implications with this. If let's say a custom is rendered as "shiny" (high specular reflection, like chrome, leather etc) it will shine like that everytime. But if I am the guy who want to decal it to look like a regular matte surface, I will find the shininess bad.
In this sense, it will be better off making the decal customs to be in the same common denominator (matte surface. I dunno if it's a Lambert shader).
The problem in TTT2 customization is that, it's not a horrible system at all, but it just hands the keys to the player. For every 1 person that sees the power and make good designs, there's another 500 who do not know what to do with it, and another 500 trolls that will make awful designs on purpose.
Understandable...
If you want to compare things in that detail... how about comparing the fact that Street Fighter has animate everything by hand while Namco manages to do 90% of everything with MoCap where you invest initially in an actor (that can even multi-task different characters) and then capture 100's of moves at once.
How about another example with MKX where they also reanimated the entire cast ALONG with the art. Along with that they made animations for all the EX moves, the different fatalities, the different brutalities, the character specific fight intro's. And they did all of that without getting any money from arcades.
And I never asked for Namco to reanimate everything, just get rid of the Tekken 2 animations. I.E. Kazuya's super is 3 different moves that are still animating the same since Tekken 2.
There is no Decal system in T7 so far.
And even if there was, why would a decal system be incompatible with Tekken 6's system of customizing individual arms, legs, chest, feet, etc. rather than settling for only upper body and lower body?
How about another example with MKX where they also reanimated the entire cast ALONG with the art. Along with that they made animations for all the EX moves, the different fatalities, the different brutalities, the character specific fight intro's. And they did all of that without getting any money from arcades.
And I never asked for Namco to reanimate everything, just get rid of the Tekken 2 animations. I.E. Kazuya's super is 3 different moves that are still animating the same since Tekken 2.
DEATH™;157864831 said:
There is no Decal system in T7 so far.
And even if there was, why would a decal system be incompatible with Tekken 6's system of customizing individual arms, legs, chest, feet, etc. rather than settling for only upper body and lower body?
DEATH™;157864831 said:
Wasn't TTT2s decal system just borrowed over from SCV?
Yes, yes.
It's not even appropriate to call it half-assed work. It's literally a copy-paste of TTT2 assets.
Thing with that is that Netherrealm is under WB. Rich, rich. And is coming off the high success of Injustice, which sold a ton based on DC characters alone. Meanwhile, Capcom's only been able to fund SFV thanks to Sony's involvement. Namco has a successful arcade+console profit model but TTT2 wasn't the grand success that previous titles were.
DEATH™;157864831 said:
Actually, SoulCalibur V had decals. They were a little more limited than Tekken Tag 2's, but cleaner and easier to use. SCV also let you change costume patterns, which was a great feature, and hasn't been adopted by any other fighting game since.
It's true that WB is big.... but you have to consider that Tekken still makes more money (when you include Arcade money) than Mortal Kombat does which can't even be sold in so many Asian countries + Australia making its market only North America + Europe while Tekken has access to the entire world.
TTT2 customization had to be limited for the sake of good netcode? Lol
T6 customization was the best? Money-grinding so you could buy/randomly unlock a slightly different color for your jeans was the BEST? Lol
No other fighting game let you add decals, patterns or textures? Lol
wow
guys soulcalibur 5 is pretty good
you should try it
T6 customization was the best? Money-grinding so you could buy/randomly unlock a slightly different color for your jeans was the BEST? Lol
No other fighting game let you add decals, patterns or textures? Lol
wow
guys soulcalibur 5 is pretty good
you should try it
1. How many numbered SFs came out? Don't get too baffled about that they "make hand-crafted animation" stuff. People recycle stuff one way or another, it's just the matter of how they hide it. It's easy to reuse assets in a 2D game where you don't have to look at the animation closely everytime aside supers.
Just imagine that along with the fact that SF do not pump out many next numbered titles in a decade, and they also have fewer moves to deal with. MK also have the luxury of a big budget too.
2. Same reason why TTT2 customs (or TTT2 in general) didn't flourish as much. You give too much control to the player. Some will be happy with it, more will be overwhelmed. Not to mention you can only do what the engine, hardware, budget, schedule, and corporate powers allows you to do.
I don't mind if you can call out the BS but consider too that these things isn't that simple where you can just shout "lazy devs", especially if you are not in there personally seeing how the development process work...
-----------
EDIT Oh forgot about SCV lol. I forgot that game existed *shots fired*
Injustice should have been okay for an international audience, though. Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe also didn't have all the gore and that game again sold tons based off the DC universe.
Personally, I don't like comparing games in such a manner especially when it's 2D vs 3D.
MKX isn't perfect either. It's a repetitive point but their female designs are hideous and it surprises me that a game with that sort of a budget can't hire a competent modeler. The game is releasing soon and we'll know soon enough how well balanced it is and how good the netcode is. Based off precedent, it's probably not any good.
Anyway, the point being it's not all sunshine and rainbows on the other side either.
Personally, I don't like comparing games in such a manner especially when it's 2D vs 3D.
MKX isn't perfect either. It's a repetitive point but their female designs are hideous and it surprises me that a game with that sort of a budget can't hire a competent modeler. The game is releasing soon and we'll know soon enough how well balanced it is and how good the netcode is. Based off precedent, it's probably not any good.
Anyway, the point being it's not all sunshine and rainbows on the other side either.
Tekken 6's unlocking system was ass but we're talking about the actual quality of the customs themselves.
And yes, it's completely understandable why TTT2 had to make concessions on the customization system because it had four characters on screen. But Tekken 7 doesn't have that. So I don't know why they're using TTT2 assets in Tekken 7.
Exactly. That's why I think the pessimism is going a bit overboard.
EDIT Sayah also consider that T7 arcade also plays online... But at the same time, I will say that the game is mad rushed.
The price scaling was flawed (though usually you could just dick around in scenario campaign's later levels on hard and sell your loot from that to get plenty of cashola), but the design principles behind the customizations made it great. Except for a small group of hats and glasses, there were no shared customizations. Every piece of equipment was tailored specifically to the body and identity of the characters they were made for. You got supercop and kung fu stuff for Lei, long-coats and evil-leader stuff for Jin, ninja/tech stuff for Raven, etc.
And for the most part it was all quality. I remember reading people flipping out that Grand Theft Auto 5 had flip-flops that actually flopped, but Tekken 6 actually did those much earlier (I believe Lei has some).
SCV is good, but you choose only from a pool of shared customizations that don't always fit a characters well. Also there was some seriously obnoxious "deez items conflict" going on.
Yeah, I understand that there definitely could be corporate factors at work here.
In the end my arguments all stem from the fact that so many other developers are accomplishing it so I just expected Tekken 7 to at least try to eclipse them considering it is the biggest fighting game in the world.
If we're talking only 3D games, a much much smaller game that's Virtua Fighter that went and reanimated all the throws of the entire cast done to Taka. And this was all done to make the game more presentable all while giving the heavy weight class characters unique knockdown & stun animations simultaneously.
And it does bring me back where VF4 would do all things like rankings, customizations and then Tekken 5 would release after trumping them in that department. That sort of healthy competition between the two developers trying to outdo each other is something I expected too from Tekken 7.
In the end my arguments all stem from the fact that so many other developers are accomplishing it so I just expected Tekken 7 to at least try to eclipse them considering it is the biggest fighting game in the world.
If we're talking only 3D games, a much much smaller game that's Virtua Fighter that went and reanimated all the throws of the entire cast done to Taka. And this was all done to make the game more presentable all while giving the heavy weight class characters unique knockdown & stun animations simultaneously.
And it does bring me back where VF4 would do all things like rankings, customizations and then Tekken 5 would release after trumping them in that department. That sort of healthy competition between the two developers trying to outdo each other is something I expected too from Tekken 7.
I would be happy if Tekken had SC custom modes. And it is made by Namco too so i don't know why they dont just put it in.
You can't have everything you want i guess.
That's probably part of the reason. Tekken literally has no more competition left because Sega is all focused on mobile games now. Namco doesn't have anyone left to 1UP in the arcade space as far as 3D fighters go.
DEATH™;157868206 said:
It does feel very rushed at this point.
Murray and Harada said the reason for time release characters is because people were overwhelmed with TTT2s starting cast.
I think the real reason is that the cast isn't even finished and they're doing things as they come. Even though returning characters are staying largely the same, they still need to work on new models, rage arts, power crush moves, and changed properties on screw attacks/combos.
Every time you wanted to change something T6 you had to let the whole ensemble reload for 5-10 seconds
every time. different-colored hat, different pair of glasses, every time.
no decals, still plenty of repeated items, still not the most varied selection, and bad netcode to use it on anyway
#best
And how often are four characters actually on the screen in TTT2? All those simultaneous tag crashes and tag throw breaks?
Did the developers ever confirm that or have fans just been repeating each other from day one?
Dawg, I'm talking about actual quality of customs. You're talking about loading times, netcode, and method of buying/unlocking customs, all of which we know Tekken 6 was terrible at.
Night_Knight
Unconfirmed Member
Guys... what did I miss?
Uh-oh...
EDIT Degen alot of times.... Tag Throw Breaks and more importantly, "Halloween" Tag Assaults...
EDIT2 Sayah yeah... when you got loading times like that, I think we cannot really complain about customization quality...
EDIT3 its a custom T6 card. Thanks KTA for pointing it out
Back off manny. I love Tekken 6 customs. lol.
Character designs have not always sucked. They've done such a good job before. It's more recently (since Tekken 6 Bob, Alisa, Lars) that I'm annoyed with them. But Tekken 7 is just taking the cake in bad designs.
Yo Jin looks hype. That new ender in the last one is amazing.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Yeah but quote without gifs because it doubles in memory strain.
One thing Tekken can really learn from Dead or Alive is making their game have no load times b/w matches. In DOA you can change your stage or rematch with the same character and have the next match come up instantly with no load times. You can even set it to cycle through the various costumes and that comes up along with 0 load times. I don't know how Team Ninja did it but it's one of the greatest features in a fighting game yet.
Was hoping this would be the case in T7 when someone chooses a Revenge Match since it will go back to the same stage... but unfortunately they still have to reload the entire stage. It's so surprising considering SCV has instant rematches.
Bonus points for Tekken if they can at least fix some of the female casts' models with their ridiculously proportioned shoulders. Biggest offenders in TTT2 were Christie and Nina... but it's just a nitpick and not that big of a deal.
Via Purifico
Banned
Jin and Josie looks sick.
Via Purifico
Banned
Devil Jins rage art was pretty cool and Jin's was great. I never had him as a main but I might try in this game.
Josie fights cool, but her outfit looks like random TTT2 customization items thrown together, only with better physics. And she's yet another young, petite female fighter. But at least she seems to provide some ethnic diversity.
Also, what was with the crying after winning? I hope this isn't another Pyrrha situation...
Also, what was with the crying after winning? I hope this isn't another Pyrrha situation...
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