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Tekken |OT2| Pulse of the Regionally Discriminated Knuckleheads
- Thread starter AAK
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MrCookiepants
Member
Tekken 2 is worth playing for the soundtrack and atmosphere. Tekken 1 is just whatever.
But it has Galaga and Purple Sonic!
How can you say you feel old? You're younger than most people in this thread, me included
I played Tekken 2 after Tekken 3 and didn't like it. I played Tekken 1 when I got Tekken 5 for my PS2. Jumping was weird, standing up was weird, but the soundtrack was glorious.
Funny that whenever I see or hear someone say they feel old, it's usually a young person.How can you say you feel old? You're younger than most people in this thread, me included
How can you say you feel old? You're younger than most people in this thread, me included
I played Tekken 2 after Tekken 3 and didn't like it. I played Tekken 1 when I got Tekken 5 for my PS2. Jumping was weird, standing up was weird, but the soundtrack was glorious.
It's kinda funny that I'm younger than a lot of people here, but actually started from the first game unlike them.
As boutdown said, it doesn't only have to do with age.
I got my PS1 in the year 2000 when I was 9 years old. Tekken 3 was already out by then. My cousin had Tekken 2 back then, but I played it after seeing Tekken 3 and it seemed way less impressive.
Yeah, I imagine if you played 1 & 2 after 3, then they will seem really bad. Tekken 1 & 2 were my first 3D games, so they just seemed amazing to me at the time.
Wait, Dereck is boutdown? I didn't even realize.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
That sidestep change is OD....wow. That removes a lot of high level defensive tactics. I don't like it. I can see why the change was made though in some regard. SS Guard Option Selects were super strong against some characters(like Lee) and made it incredibly hard to stop people from stepping. This makes it so your move does not need to fall into the 16 and under frame sweet spot need to actually stop people from SS to one side or another. Makes a lot of homing moves better.
At the same time though it's going to be super fucking frustrating trying to sidestep anything because you literally will not be able to block right away for the first time in Tekken ever. You're going to be getting hit by tons of shit you should not be. Even in a neutral situation. I wish that if they had made this change they would have increased the evasiveness of the sidestep to compliment the added risk. :/
This is the exact same kind of change that killed the Soul Calibur competitive scene. Dunno why they are a making the same mistake in Tekken.
At the same time though it's going to be super fucking frustrating trying to sidestep anything because you literally will not be able to block right away for the first time in Tekken ever. You're going to be getting hit by tons of shit you should not be. Even in a neutral situation. I wish that if they had made this change they would have increased the evasiveness of the sidestep to compliment the added risk. :/
This is the exact same kind of change that killed the Soul Calibur competitive scene. Dunno why they are a making the same mistake in Tekken.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Yep. According to that tweet, Harada believe this will help newer players get into the game. I have no idea HOW but that's the idea.
Thanks. But I really fall for that American style syndrome where I just try my utmost hardest to put you in a 50/50 situation and force a guess. I never stand a chance against anyone who can space and zone to neutralize that game. Something I have to really train myself to adapt to.
Wow
This should go up on ATP honestly and should be publicized.
I think it's just like you said earlier. It lowers the skill gap to reach higher levels of play taking away advantages expert level players have.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
ZeroTheShadow
Member
It doesn't though. That helps in the gap between high-mid level players and high level players. It doesn't help the low to mid gap where the problem with Tekken is. What its' going to end up doing is pissing people off because they will be like "I totally blocked that!" and in every other Tekken game they'd be right but in this one you didn't. Can you imagine how much worse it will be online too? Last night against you I tried to SS Block a lot and got hit because of the lag. Now throw a natural in game delay on that, you'll be getting hit by shit all the time you shouldn't be.
Think about the math: 8 frame input delay, +2-5 frames of lag, +4 frames of SS block delay that means your input is like 15 frames behind where it should be. Good luck trying to sidestep and block ANYTHING. To top it all off it makes people use the crush system MORE. This is suppose to be a 3D game. Good players use the 3D movement to their advantage, that's what good fundamentally are in Tekken.
Flying Wonkey
Member
Just wait, I'm still getting the guy's permission to paste the convo onto the site.
He doesn't mind forums but he was worried if the thing would make a big fuss on a bigger website.
He doesn't mind forums but he was worried if the thing would make a big fuss on a bigger website.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Just wait, I'm still getting the guy's permission to paste the convo onto the site.
He doesn't mind forums but he was worried if the thing would make a big fuss on a bigger website.
He's right. This is HUGE. Like super huge. It should get blown up. I personally want it blown up because I want it changed back. I was cool with everything else in Tekken 7, throw break change was a little meh but I could live. This is the first thing where I am like "FUCK NO". Leave that shit alone.
Like damn, Claudio's b+1 is even more OP now with this change. I was thinking 18 frames was kinda slow for a useful homing move. With this change it means that move is just gonna be ruining everyone's bar mitzvah.
It's like you said. It basically kills the whole 3D movement. Who would take such a big risk and step anything if he's vulnerable after that?
I hope I just don't get it and it's not as bad as I think it is.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
The exact same thing happened with Soul Calibur. After SCII they nerfed the ability to guard immediately after side stepping. I never played Soul Calibur again after 2. Movement in SC games became crap. Needless to say the change to being able to guard after SS in Soul Calibur didn't help any new players get into the game at all. It just made veterans leave and never come back.
Lol, this is Wonkey's source. I'm not gonna do something without his permission on this.
I see what you mean. Maybe that is Namco's goal... Try to retain those mid-level players we would see in those random Tekken Crash teams.
I really appreciate you sharing this with us, I have a non-greedy question that may come off as greedy, is there any chance that he will interview more Korean players about the game?
Flying Wonkey
Member
I'm actually doing that right now! I'm getting more responses from other Korean players as well as Japanese players before I put it up right before the ATP Live show starts for more attention.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
SquirrelSoup
Member
Got me much more into it. i like SC5 a lot better than SC2 and it's mostly because of the movement.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Change was made in SC3 dude. And sales number and tournament entrance are the proof in the proverbial pudding. SC series has fallen off super hard.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Different times. You can't just straight compare sales numbers like that, otherwise T3 would by far be objectively the 'best' Tekken game out there. A game that sold super well back then wouldn't sell right now. Most fighting games have 'fallen off' now that people who thought they were DA BES can go online and get bodied and drop the game or even the whole genre afterward.
SC5 sold respectably according to Bamco. I played and enjoyed it a lot. I guess you didn't and that's okay. But it being worse (or better) than earlier games is opinion, not fact.
The movement changes have been my biggest concern with T7. Watching even Knee play, he almost never sidesteps, just back and forth like it's a 2D game. I wasn't sure if it was just because the game is new, it's online, or what. But now that we know how much it's nerfed, this really sucks. Tekkens movement system is why I even play Tekken. If Koreans are almost never sidestepping, than for the rest of the world, sidestep might as well not exist.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Let's put aside "sales". You're right in the sense that sales could be anything. What about the competitive scene? Soul Calibur 2 was one of the biggest games in the FGC back in the early 2000s. It has been a side game ever since. Most of the old Soul Calibur players haven't touched the game in a decade plus. Even Aris who used to be the most hardcore straight up Soul Calibur player switched to Tekken because the series went down the crapper competitively.
Upstate New York's FGC was founded on Soul Calibur and grew from there. That's all the used to be here was Soul Calibur players. Now the only people who play SC live over in Buffalo and there's like 2 of them. It all goes back to the changes made in SC3.
This is potentially a damning move for the franchise. Korea is already pissed it seems from what we've heard. The scene is shrinking not expanding. Tekken 7 already has tons of bad publicity with the casuals due to poor marketing decisions and now we can add this to the alienating core players column. It's a bad look right now
Like I said there was no reason to make this change. It only serves to make things worse for the game. We want a smaller gap between beginner and intermediate, not between advanced and expert.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
You know there was a saying that Japanese players played Tekken like a 2D game while Korean players played it like a 3D game. All the changes to Tekken since DR and pushed it to a more 2D like game which favors this old adage of Japanese play style. It's really unfortunate that the game is heading in this direction.
Again like I said earlier. This change might be fine if they added more evasiveness in the sidestep but they didn't. It's the same old SS but now you can't block out of it.
SquirrelSoup
Member
I don't think mechanical changes of this sort can make or break a games popularity. Any recent game now was up against SF4, which seems to have vacuumed up basically all the players and i don't think it's on the strength of any system decisions they've made in that. I think SC5 was mostly recieved poorly because of the story mode and roster decisions, but it was mostly just the state of the FGC making it less than the most popular game around or whatever. (Also, you know it was still played a fecking lot in France for example, right? The competitive scene dying in the US or something isn't the whole picture. )
T7 is going to be up against SF5, whether it launches a bit earlier or a bit later. If it's going to pull in some numbers it's probably going to have to be on the strength of the roster or any added modes attractive to the casuals. Not whether it has a strong sidestep or a weak one.
But yes, if the hardcore crowd says it plays like hot garbage, that's probably going to trickle down and curtail sales. So you know, maybe we shouldn't jump to conclusions and say it's going to be -that fecking awful-? I don't know about you, but most impressions i've heard so far have been positive. Markman/Rip/Aris/etc. all said they liked T7 a lot. To me, it doesn't seem like a weaker sidestep immediately results in a garbage game. (And as said, in SC's case i personally feel it made for a much better game.)
So calling it a 'damning move for the franchise' sounds pretty overblown to me. </rant>
T7 is going to be up against SF5, whether it launches a bit earlier or a bit later. If it's going to pull in some numbers it's probably going to have to be on the strength of the roster or any added modes attractive to the casuals. Not whether it has a strong sidestep or a weak one.
But yes, if the hardcore crowd says it plays like hot garbage, that's probably going to trickle down and curtail sales. So you know, maybe we shouldn't jump to conclusions and say it's going to be -that fecking awful-? I don't know about you, but most impressions i've heard so far have been positive. Markman/Rip/Aris/etc. all said they liked T7 a lot. To me, it doesn't seem like a weaker sidestep immediately results in a garbage game. (And as said, in SC's case i personally feel it made for a much better game.)
So calling it a 'damning move for the franchise' sounds pretty overblown to me. </rant>
ZeroTheShadow
Member
I'm not going to argue with you about what you THINK. I'm saying, based on historical evidence this is a bad move. The comparisons couldn't be more close. Both are 3D fighters, Both made by Namco, both are follow ups to arguably the best game in the series, both are being toned down to appeal to a wider audience, both nerfed movement in the same way.
Also no one is saying the game is garbage, we are saying it's an unnecessary change that could have consequences in regards to the game's competitive viability.
I thought the point of nerfing Oki besides making it easier for newbs(which didn't happen) was to allow for more focus on the neutral but they nerfed a HUGE part of the neutral. Makes no sense.
They seem so afraid of making SS intuitive or immediately effective.
On the other hand,they keep focusing the most on crush moves and other shenanigans.
Terareflection
Member
I guess giving everyone effective moves with tracking properties would be too hard for Namco.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Pretty much. The problem of the step guard option select can be addressed by giving characters faster moves that track. Instead of doing that or modifying old moves to have better tracking they just decided to nerf sidestepping. Lazy way out. And the consequence of that is that now shit tracks too well that shouldn't like EWGF. Half the reason EWGF isn't broken is because you could SSL it and SS into guard made that viable as it wasn't super risky. Now that's gone, if you don't SS it perfectly you get launched and with EWGF recovery you might not even get a launch punish if you do get it to wiff.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Light Bright Jack. Can expect him to be super good with the SS change.
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