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[Rhazer Fusion]

Tekken 7 could easily be in development now, since it's going to be on next gen hardware most likely.

Honestly, we probably won't see Tekken 7 until 2015 at the earliest and that is being generous. Tekkens do a very long time to come out and Tekken 7 will probably be fairly different. I don't think they are really going to simplify it too much though because they could upset the hardcore fanbase who support, live and breathe this franchise. The tag feature will definitely be gone, there will be noticeably less characters, I imagine there will of course be new moves for everyone and some type of new feature or two.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Tekken 7 gameplay footage => http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HzucMuDbtp0

:lol



Oh that was you? Ahahha ggs! Next step to is to duck punish that EWGF.

I'm like a deer in the headlights whenever that move whiffs. ;_;

We should play again sometime. I need somebody to beat the suckiness out of me.

 

[Flying Wonkey]

We should play again sometime. I need somebody to beat the suckiness out of me.

Sure, I'll send you a FR next time I get on. Maybe we can get an Aus TekkenGAF lobby going with us, Bleep and maybe Toasty if he ever plays again.

Now to look into that connection...

 

[Dereck]

Ya boy went from 39.7 to 41.8, I feel like less of a loser. That's awesome.

http://wtf.tekken.com/playercard/view/psn/muhnner

 

[Sayah]

Tekken 7 will have far far far less characters than Tag 2 and will be drastically different than any other Tekken game you have played. Tag 2 is basically a send off that style of Tekken play. Tekken 7 is basically going to be a franchise reboot like SC5 was. People just can't wrap their head around Tekken anymore and Harada knows this. Console sales of Tag 2 being far worse than anticipated proved this. The general population is losing interest.

What essentially is hurting Tekken is knowledge of how to play the game correctly. Tekken has always been Tekken but to the general consumer newer Tekken's suck, they are all about Juggling and stuff. The game was always like that but because of the lack of online play and the lack of high level videos. Everyone thought the way they played with their friends was right. As the internet age came around, youtube, videos, and online play, people actually got exposed to good players who beat their ass but instead of assuming they had been playing the game wrong the whole time, they thought that Tekken had changed and they didn't like it anymore.

TxSF will be the first step in this simplification process that will change Tekken forever. Please, enjoy Tag 2 while it lasts for it probably will be the last True Tekken ever made.

I don't think they would abandon their core fanbase to appease to casual gamers by simplifying the series. There are ways to appease both audiences without abandoning one or the other.

For Tekken 7, I think they need to forget about making a scenario campaign-like side game and focus a lot of their energy and efforts towards creating the absolute best in-game tutorial possible. Each character, in fact, should have his/her own dedicated tutorial. I have yet to see a game do that and I would much rather have something like that over a forgettable campaign mode that clearly no one liked and was essentially a waste of time and resources that could have been used elsewhere.

I really hope SC6 will be a T5 of some sorts where regular movesets are back and previous characters that got axed are back. SC5 just show why deleting characters in general just for the sake of it are bad.

And T7 will probably have around the same if not less characters than TTT2 because of clone characters being gone. Though I hope Forest, Miharu, P. Jack and Alex stays (with revamped movesets). Unknown can be a transformation of Jun ala Kaz-Devil, Slim Bob can be a palette swap and Sebastian & Tiger can rest in peace (though Tiger can be a pallete swap for Eddy and it won't matter much). That will still be alot of space left.

I really hate that you hope that.

 

[Deps]

I don't think they will go the tutorial route. An MK9 like story mode is what they really need to get back casuals attention. To most of my casual friends, TTT2's fight lab was a good tutorial but they still didn't like the game because there was no story mode. Tutorials are only interesting for the small % of players that actually want to go beyond mashing buttons, most casuals play Tekken because of the "cool" characters, pretty graphics, and the story stuff (which TTT2 didn't really have).

As for the actual gameplay, I don't see them simplifying it too much, but the next Tekken will definitely change and I think the roster will be muuuuch smaller. Tekken makes a lot of money from hardcore players in Japans arcades that they can't really neuter Tekken without upsetting a ton of people who pour money daily playing at arcades. Along with that I don't think difficulty really hurts sales much, it's the lack of story modes. Most casuals don't even understand that Tekken is a difficult game. Whatever happens though, I'm just gonna enjoy TTT2, games godlike and I don't see T7 coming out for many years.

 

[AAK]

Yesterday's Toronto tournament only had 6 entrants for TTT2....

That is lower than KOF13, MK9, P4A, BB:CSE, DOA5, and even GG:AC+.

Only other games that had worse attendance was SFxT and VF5. As much as we love this game (I can't stop playing it), a good majority of people won't invest in the time to get good at it and compete. I kinda agree with ZTS here, both casually and competitively TTT2 is doing worse than I could have ever imagined. I was positive they'd have reached 2 million sales by now and I expected a lot more people to play the game. It's unfathomable to see TTT2 do worse than T6 at tournaments.

After TxSF, the next Tekken will be massively different. I guess Namco can't afford to cater to our demographic anymore. They'll have to pull a Resident Evil 4 on the series and change its direction drastically to appeal to the mass market. And when that happens, I don't know how much of the game I'd like. I might move over to VF6.

In the end it is really disappointing... because TTT2 is honestly the greatest piece of software I've ever played since I started gaming hardcore back in 2003 (I'll tie it with MGS4 ). But unfortunately my tastes have become a diminutive minority in today's market. And like ZTS said... might as well enjoy it as much as I can before we say goodbye to this series.

 

[DEATH™]

^
^
^
I don't think smaller roster will happen anytime soon...

Just look at the flak Harada got with Jun and Kuni, characters thought that was obsolete. Same with freaking Shin now (who's not even playable). Deleting characters will make a big portion of the fanbase happy. As long as the game profits on being in arcades, we can't expect them to delete characters. At least, not in the arcade version characters.

Though I bet Kuni, A. Ogre, Michelle, and Angel will be on the next game. Violet, Sebastian, Tiger and Slim Bob will be gone.

It's just depressing there because your scene is small, but when you got growing scenes in China and Middle East, you can't complain... It just shows you more about the western attitude these days where they will prefer braindead games will skittles pouring over their screens... In general sense, America produced a bad generation. (not just in games...)

and yes Sayah... we love Miharu... EEEYYY!!!

-------

EDIT Tekken just needs a "story mode" per se... As bad as DOA 5 was, that small thing made casuals think DOA 5 >>> TTT2 which pretty loltastic if you ask me... I'm not worried about it...

 

[Sayah]

I don't think they will go the tutorial route. An MK9 like story mode is what they really need to get back casuals attention. To most of my casual friends, TTT2's fight lab was a good tutorial but they still didn't like the game because there was no story mode. Tutorials are only interesting for the small % of players that actually want to go beyond mashing buttons, most casuals play Tekken because of the "cool" characters, pretty graphics, and the story stuff (which TTT2 didn't really have).

As for the actual gameplay, I don't see them simplifying it too much, but the next Tekken will definitely change and I think the roster will be muuuuch smaller. Tekken makes a lot of money from hardcore players in Japans arcades that they can't really neuter Tekken without upsetting a ton of people who pour money daily playing at arcades. Along with that I don't think difficulty really hurts sales much, it's the lack of story modes. Most casuals don't even understand that Tekken is a difficult game. Whatever happens though, I'm just gonna enjoy TTT2, games godlike and I don't see T7 coming out for many years.

I can agree with that. But I still think a comprehensive tutorial mode is needed to convert casual gamers into competitive players. Mostly anyone and everyone is capable of competing at a high-level. It's just a matter of realizing what Tekken has to offer (its depth) and then finding suitable competition.Most if not all of us were casual Tekken fans initially. After years of playing, there just comes a point where everything clicks and you realize there's a whole world of possibility. What a well-done and comprehensive tutorial can do is speed up that process significantly.

 

[AAK]

^
^
^
I don't think smaller roster will happen anytime soon...

Just look at the flak Harada got with Jun and Kuni, characters thought that was obsolete. Same with freaking Shin now (who's not even playable). Deleting characters will make a big portion of the fanbase happy. As long as the game profits on being in arcades, we can't expect them to delete characters. At least, not in the arcade version characters.

I would agree with you but that's just the rabid twitterbase talking. If the mass amount of people were truly happy, the sales would be much better. And besides, I don't think Namco is going to try to capture these people anymore, I think they're going to try and get people that have never played Tekken before.

It's just depressing there because your scene is small, but when you got growing scenes in China and Middle East, you can't complain... It just shows you more about the western attitude these days where they will prefer braindead games will skittles pouring over their screens... In general sense, America produced a bad generation. (not just in games...)

I know my scene is small, but I'm comparing TTT2 in my scene with how T6 did in my scene. I didn't travel back then but I did see the attendance on forums and such. In T6 the lowest turnouts were about 12-15 people say? Now you'll be lucky to get even 8. And TTT2 is 10x the game T6 is.

About the international community, I also do wonder how they are doing COMPARED to T6. Here, take a look at what Saudi was doing for T6:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycFwm36U7Ys

I don't see anywhere near as much info or videos for these scale of tournies for TTT2 yet. And after listening to the ATG Rain/JDCR podcast, TTT2's popularity is like half of T6BR's. Looking at the arcadia monthly rankings, TTT2 is no where near as dominant as T6BR was. I'd love for anyone to prove me wrong, but it's just looking that way unfortunately.

 

[Sayah]

^
^
^
I don't think smaller roster will happen anytime soon...

Just look at the flak Harada got with Jun and Kuni, characters thought that was obsolete. Same with freaking Shin now (who's not even playable). Deleting characters will make a big portion of the fanbase happy. As long as the game profits on being in arcades, we can't expect them to delete characters. At least, not in the arcade version characters.

Though I bet Kuni, A. Ogre, Michelle, and Angel will be on the next game. Violet, Sebastian, Tiger and Slim Bob will be gone.

It's just depressing there because your scene is small, but when you got growing scenes in China and Middle East, you can't complain... It just shows you more about the western attitude these days where they will prefer braindead games will skittles pouring over their screens... In general sense, America produced a bad generation. (not just in games...)

and yes Sayah... we love Miharu... EEEYYY!!!

-------

EDIT Tekken just needs a "story mode" per se... As bad as DOA 5 was, that small thing made casuals think DOA 5 >>> TTT2 which pretty loltastic if you ask me... I'm not worried about it...

Stream views usually take a hit every time Tekken comes on so yeah, it's unfortunate. So many people also complaining about Tekken being "hard" and most of the same people don't want to put in the commitment that's required. Sad and unfortunate all around.

I also hate to the be one to say that my tastes are superior to others but when you have Justin Bieber, Twilight and Call of Duty at the top of the charts, then yes, America has produced a bad generation.

Yesterday's Toronto tournament only had 6 entrants for TTT2....

That is lower than KOF13, MK9, P4A, BB:CSE, DOA5, and even GG:AC+.

Only other games that had worse attendance was SFxT and VF5. As much as we love this game (I can't stop playing it), a good majority of people won't invest in the time to get good at it and compete. I kinda agree with ZTS here, both casually and competitively TTT2 is doing worse than I could have ever imagined. I was positive they'd have reached 2 million sales by now and I expected a lot more people to play the game. It's unfathomable to see TTT2 do worse than T6 at tournaments.

After TxSF, the next Tekken will be massively different. I guess Namco can't afford to cater to our demographic anymore. They'll have to pull a Resident Evil 4 on the series and change its direction drastically to appeal to the mass market. And when that happens, I don't know how much of the game I'd like. I might move over to VF6.

In the end it is really disappointing... because TTT2 is honestly the greatest piece of software I've ever played since I started gaming hardcore back in 2003 (I'll tie it with MGS4 ). But unfortunately my tastes have become a diminutive minority in today's market. And like ZTS said... might as well enjoy it as much as I can before we say goodbye to this series.

I don't like all this pessimism.

But siiiiiix entrants? Bleh.

 

[DEATH™]

I would agree with you but that's just the rabid twitterbase talking. If the mass amount of people were truly happy, the sales would be much better. And besides, I don't think Namco is going to try to capture these people anymore, I think they're going to try and get people that have never played Tekken before.



I know my scene is small, but I'm comparing TTT2 in my scene with how T6 did in my scene. I didn't travel back then but I did see the attendance on forums and such. In T6 the lowest turnouts were about 12-15 people say? Now you'll be lucky to get even 8. And TTT2 is 10x the game T6 is.

About the international community, I also do wonder how they are doing COMPARED to T6. Here, take a look at what Saudi was doing for T6:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycFwm36U7Ys

I don't see anywhere near as much info or videos for these scale of tournies for TTT2 yet. And after listening to the ATG Rain/JDCR podcast, TTT2's popularity is like half of T6BR's. Looking at the arcadia monthly rankings, TTT2 is no where near as dominant as T6BR was. I'd love for anyone to prove me wrong, but it's just looking that way unfortunately.

You're too pessimistic bro, it's not AS strong as T6, but it's still good. Maxi said it's just more new people coming in and old ones retiring and pursuing other stuff. The new people of course won't get recognition because they are fairly new and still needs improvement, not to mention it's hard to get recognition if JDCR is beside you. Just like obscure, speedkicks, and runitblack are just coming along here. I haven't even mention Australian and New Zealand Tekken (which ZTS hates) who gets members and can place in tournaments where they can go...

But yes, trust me when I say Tekken is still growing... The only problem is making those good players come out...

P.S. Many scrubs who thought they are good got bodied in TTT2 online and now complaining that the game needs to change... That's pretty usual, even on T5 days. It's just that online is soo good that many of them came out at the same time.

P.S.S. *high fives Sayah*

just this generation disproves Darwin's Natural Selection completely...

 

[DR2K]

Tekken Tag 2s tutorial was shit coming from a Tekken newb. Every fighting game should have a trial mode where you practice preset combos and bnbs.

 

[Deps]

There are some places that were stronger during T6 and some that are stronger now. In Ohio there are a lot more people playing Tekken now than during T6. It's not all doom and gloom.

And honestly, I think character roster is the big problem (with competitive tekken). Before TTT2's release there were so many people hype to play, but only a small portion of that ended up really learning the game. Most of them that I know were fine with learning the game system, but then they all realized they have to learn 50+ matchups where every character has a billion moves. Hell, that's how I still feel. TTT2 is my first Tekken, and I've learned BDC, wavedashing, iWS, throw breaks, all that stuff, but I get constantly randomed out, I love the game and will never quit, but many feel like its too much to learn. I've learned like 1000 different moves and their properties but I still feel like I have 10000 more to go. It doesn't matter how T7 changes, unless the roster is much smaller or the move sets are trimmed down it won't become more popular (at least in the states).

 

[FormallyFamicom]

Tekken Tag 2s tutorial was shit coming from a Tekken newb. Every fighting game should have a trial mode where you practice preset combos and bnbs.

TTT2 doesn't have a trial mode, but practicing the sample combos in the movelist pretty much accomplishes the same thing. And Namco at least has the decency to show you how they're done unlike Capcom trials.

 

[DEATH™]

There are some places that were stronger during T6 and some that are stronger now. In Ohio there are a lot more people playing Tekken now than during T6. It's not all doom and gloom.

And honestly, I think character roster is the big problem (with competitive tekken). Before TTT2's release there were so many people hype to play, but only a small portion of that ended up really learning the game. Most of them that I know were fine with learning the game system, but then they all realized they have to learn 50+ matchups where every character has a billion moves. Hell, that's how I still feel. TTT2 is my first Tekken, and I've learned BDC, wavedashing, iWS, throw breaks, all that stuff, but I get constantly randomed out, I love the game and will never quit, but many feel like its too much to learn. I've learned like 1000 different moves and their properties but I still feel like I have 10000 more to go. It doesn't matter how T7 changes, unless the roster is much smaller or the move sets are trimmed down it won't become more popular (at least in the states).

TBH that's why I love the game... Think of this way, you will NEVER get bored in this game, there is always something new to discover. Even the best in the game learns new tech everytime. Don't get overwhelmed, enjoy it. Many fighting games can dream about replayability Tekken has right now.

-------

@famicom and DR2K

If there was a command trials on Tekken, that will be awesome though. I can see that on the next Combot version where Combot does the moves of a specific character and it will be on his moves bank. It will be a grind, but that's what usually casuals want.

TBH I kinda want Combot to have every move in Tekken. even the good ones that got replaced before.

 

[Sayah]

There are some places that were stronger during T6 and some that are stronger now. In Ohio there are a lot more people playing Tekken now than during T6. It's not all doom and gloom.

And honestly, I think character roster is the big problem (with competitive tekken). Before TTT2's release there were so many people hype to play, but only a small portion of that ended up really learning the game. Most of them that I know were fine with learning the game system, but then they all realized they have to learn 50+ matchups where every character has a billion moves. Hell, that's how I still feel. TTT2 is my first Tekken, and I've learned BDC, wavedashing, iWS, throw breaks, all that stuff, but I get constantly randomed out, I love the game and will never quit, but many feel like its too much to learn. I've learned like 1000 different moves and their properties but I still feel like I have 10000 more to go. It doesn't matter how T7 changes, unless the roster is much smaller or the move sets are trimmed down it won't become more popular (at least in the states).

You just started with Tag 2? Niiiiiiiiice. You're right. It's really overwhelming when you have to get used to so many matchups. I know I'm still not good with certain matchups even though I have past experience with Tekken. While matchup experience is important, you can still win matches without knowing anything at all about the opposing character (i.e. through proper spacing, poking or through rush down). Some might even say that they have more trouble with mirror matches than they do with anything else.

Edit: Also, DEATH is spot on. I remember thinking at one point in T6 that I had exhausted Nina tech after two years of playing with her. I was wrong. Even in Tag 2, I'm continually discovering new things with her.

TTT2 doesn't have a trial mode, but practicing the sample combos in the movelist pretty much accomplishes the same thing. And Namco at least has the decency to show you how they're done unlike Capcom trials.

Capcom's command lists are insanely annoying to go through. One, I can't know for sure that I'm doing the move correctly. Two, I have to pause the menu and choose the character before I can see the command list..........every single time. And three, the command list resets to the beginning so if I stopped at one place, I will have to scroll back down again.

And the funny thing is, Tekken has like 50 times more moves and animations than any Capcom game and each and every single move can be viewed. And here is a Capcom command list with 8 moves and they can't even bother to add a pre-recording of the moves so the player can be sure he's performing them right. Really annoys me.

 

[DEATH™]

http://www.twitch.tv/karastorm

Karastorm's ranbats coming in 7:45 pm EST (4:45 pm PST).

Sign up Sayah!!! Body these fools! Body speedkicks please

https://www.facebook.com/events/262738620526055/?ref=25

 

[Doomshine]

Blood Hawk is streaming: http://t.co/6i95TyOe

 

[DEATH™]

http://www.twitch.tv/karastorm

Karastorm online ranbats starting now...

 

[Lost Fragment]

Tekken is convoluted as fuck at this point, but that is something that appeals to a certain mindset. I'm garbage at Tekken, but the thought that there's so much to explore and learn and that there's never really going to be a time when everything is figured out is appealing to me. Obviously, though, me and people like me are in the minority, and I can't see how they can keep that aspect of Tekken the same while at the same time appealing to people who don't have that mindset. It feels like it would be a lot more realistic to try the opposite approach, to appeal to them by simplifying the game in a way that will hopefully please the hardcore as well. I can't see Namco moving forward with Tekken without simplifying the game. Just isn't gonna happen. I'm really curious to see Tekken X Street Fighter since that will probably give some hints on where they plan on taking the series.

 

[DEATH™]

Tekken is convoluted as fuck at this point, but that is something that appeals to a certain mindset. I'm garbage at Tekken, but the thought that there's so much to explore and learn and that there's never really going to be a time when everything is figured out is appealing to me. Obviously, though, me and people like me are in the minority, and I can't see how they can keep that aspect of Tekken the same while at the same time appealing to people who don't have that mindset. It feels like it would be a lot more realistic to try the opposite approach, to appeal to them by simplifying the game in a way that will hopefully please the hardcore as well. I can't see Namco moving forward with Tekken without simplifying the game. Just isn't gonna happen. I'm really curious to see Tekken X Street Fighter since that will probably give some hints on where they plan on taking the series.

If simplification is a good route, VF5:FS should be booming right now... which it isn't...

The problem ain't the large cast/movesets (which is not as large as people complain about. There are 60+ moves on each character as a median). People around here love their SF/Marvel that they don't want to try other games. that's one. Second, people just hate honest games, where the game will let them know they suck, which Tekken is good at. Only select people with character will be motivated to improve, as most people will give up without even trying again...

 

[Lost Fragment]

It should go without saying that things aren't that black and white, and that they can't just be like "hey if we make this shit more simple we'll automatically sell 5 million copies." There is more to it than that.

 

[DEATH™]

It should go without saying that things aren't that black and white, and that they can't just be like "hey if we make this shit more simple we'll automatically sell 5 million copies." There is more to it than that.

Yeah, but at the same time, if simplification will not earn you much fans AND turn off you loyal fans, why bother?

What I'm saying is casuals come and go... You shouldn't go away from the formula that make Tekken, Tekken, just to appease to people that's gonna drop the game after the next Marvel comes out (points at P4A). Tekken is the game that heavily rewards hard work, where two-win streaks meant something. Why would you go for a riskier route that cost you the franchise before? (points at T4)

TBH it's stupid for people who want this game to be simplified like theirs because they don't want to keep up.

 

[Terareflection]

Are all of King's ground throws 2 breaks?

 

[DEATH™]

Are all of King's ground throws 2 breaks?

Nope... depends on the dude's input...

That means 50/50 guessing game for you...

 

[Dereck]

That means 50/50 guessing game for you...

Lol, what a haunting sentence.

 

[Lost Fragment]

Yeah, but at the same time, if simplification will not earn you much fans AND turn off you loyal fans, why bother?

What I'm saying is casuals come and go... You shouldn't go away from the formula that make Tekken, Tekken, just to appease to people that's gonna drop the game after the next Marvel comes out (points at P4A). Tekken is the game that heavily rewards hard work, where two-win streaks meant something. Why would you go for a riskier route that cost you the franchise before? (points at T4)

TBH it's stupid for people who want this game to be simplified like theirs because they don't want to keep up.

It's not really about keeping up, it's about barrier to entry, and to a lesser extent, understanding what's going on when you watch the game.

 

[DEATH™]

It's not really about keeping up, it's about barrier to entry, and to a lesser extent, understanding what's going on when you watch the game.

Then simplification ISN'T the solution... A good tutorial mode is...

Fight Lab is a good step... but it's gonna be better...
Punish indicator is really good. (TBH if you play street fighter, you should easily see this)
You can know the move's inputs just by looking by the move itself...
You can easily see which is punishable, crushes and other things...
If you practice martial arts, Tekken stays true to it... You can easily apply the Tekken's "system" to apply what you learned in your martial arts.

There is a reason why people, even with the slightest sincere effort learning the game, suddenly thinks it's one of the best FGs out right now...

P.S. the game's been in the easiest right now... stun breaks are easier and happens less, and characters are made for them in mind... THERE IS NO REASON WHY PEOPLE SHOULD COMPLAIN. The question is people sincerely putting the actual effort.

(and that's why we shoot down complainers in TZ. Keep in mind... COMPLAINERS)...

P.S.S. GTs can be hopkicked so the breaks are justified...

 

[Terareflection]

Nope... depends on the dude's input...

That means 50/50 guessing game for you...

So reassuring...

 

[Lost Fragment]

Then simplification ISN'T the solution... A good tutorial mode is...

Fight Lab is a good step... but it's gonna be better...
Punish indicator is really good. (TBH if you play street fighter, you should easily see this)
You can know the move's inputs just by looking by the move itself...
You can easily see which is punishable, crushes and other things...
If you practice martial arts, Tekken stays true to it... You can easily apply the Tekken's "system" to apply what you learned in your martial arts.

There is a reason why people, even with the slightest sincere effort learning the game, suddenly thinks it's one of the best FGs out right now...

Anecdotes. And the ones who don't really give it a chance because it looks too confusing/boring/hard/whatever and the people who try it but quit when they get overwhelmed aren't really going to go out of their way to let you know.

 

[DEATH™]

Anecdotes. And the ones who don't really give it a chance because it looks too confusing/boring/hard/whatever and the people who try it but quit when they get overwhelmed aren't really going to go out of their way to let you know.

I put the key word... "sincerely"

The people you describe are the exact ones where they only want games that "pour skittles on the screen", and games that "play themselves".

The game's like learning how to play music in a real instrument, only people who really wants to play learn it, ans only other musicians actually appreciate it to the fullest...

 

[AAK]

If simplification is a good route, VF5:FS should be booming right now... which it isn't...

The problem ain't the large cast/movesets (which is not as large as people complain about. There are 60+ moves on each character as a median). People around here love their SF/Marvel that they don't want to try other games. that's one. Second, people just hate honest games, where the game will let them know they suck, which Tekken is good at. Only select people with character will be motivated to improve, as most people will give up without even trying again...

I used to think the same way you do... but I had to come to terms with reality.

And my brother, VF5 isn't a good example. That game doesn't have the marketing, lore, or console history at the level of previous Tekkens, and the changes to Final Showdown I don't think were done to reach a new market, I believe they were done because Sega thought it will be more fun to play.

Resident Evil 4 and Street Fighter 4 on the other hand had those changes to accommodate for a new market rather than trying to make a better fighting engine compared to 3rd Strike.... and that's what I'm afraid Tekken will become but not because Harada wants to... but needs to to maintain the sales expectations of every mainline sequal to Tekken.

EDIT: And I'm learning Leo.... SHE IS SO CHEAP!!! Wow.... EWGF +5 on block? LOL how about an easy mid hitting move that's +8 on block!!

 

[DEATH™]

I used to think the same way you do... but I had to come to terms with reality.

And my brother, VF5 isn't a good example. That game doesn't have the marketing, lore, or console history at the level of previous Tekkens, and the changes to Final Showdown I don't think were done to reach a new market, I believe they were done because Sega thought it will be more fun to play.

Resident Evil 4 and Street Fighter 4 had those changes to accommodate for a new market rather than trying to make a better fighting engine compared to 3rd Strike.... and that's what I'm afraid Tekken will become but not because Harada wants to... but needs to to maintain the sales expectations of every mainline sequal to Tekken.

My question then is, what is Tekken's Market?

Because I think we Americans are not the market for Tekken... At least not the SOLE market... I can say this because I was born in the Philippines, and the player's mindset are VASTLY different than we are living in.

EDIT: yep... you just found out huh... Leo is super easy compared to what her damage. Perfect example of new characters aimed for newbs...

And VF5 got the same complaints about being complicated too (that and they want a more "aggressive" game for "button mashers". and simplifying it they thought will AT LEAST attract the current american FGC who got just as enough advertisment... It didn't matter... People know FS came out, but people won't try it... Again, people are too loyal to Capcom...

 

[AAK]

American market is definitely a big part for Namco... North American console sales majority comes from this region. Out of the 2 M wordlwide sales expected of TTT2 at least 900K is expected to come from NA region. There's 300+ million people here and unlike countries like China/India/Indonesia the price of games and average income of the public sector accommodate them to spend in this hobby.

And again about Virtua Fighter, there isn't anybody that legitimately plays it and complains about it's complexity. It's by far one of the easier games to execute moves in and do cool things in a 3D space. It has depth with the way AM2 designed the character's move lists.

And the changes to Final Showdown I believe just make the game more punishing for people who guess wrong. The whole game revolves around trying to get your opponent in a throw mixup and hence throws make up an extremely fundamental part of the game. FS took away the ability to buffer in multiple throw breaks which I suppose evened the playing field a little bit between the less and more skilled players. And I also think they got rid of the sidestep attacks, but those changes barely do anything to make VF less complex IMO, just more offensive. Any VF vet in this thread please feel free to correct a VF noob like myself. Hence, I don't think the change from VF5 Xbox to VF5FS is analagous to the changes I'm expecting for Tekken 7. I'm expecting SF3 --> SF4 or MvC2 --> MvC3 levels of changes.

 

[braves01]

Speaking as a Tekken noob, while Fight Lab was an okay introduction to the game mechanics, it was still nowhere near enough to get competent at this game. I'm new to fighters in general, so maybe it's leagues beyond other games, but it's still not enough imo.

What attracted me to Tekken initially was the silly Nintendo costumes (so I guess I'm part of the "bad generation"), but the only reason I bought it and stuck with it was because I did some homework, watched some streams and figured out how the game plays. It's a deep, rewarding with game with TONS of content thats's hard to master. The problem is that it's incredibly overwhelming and for that reason difficult to fully understand, and when people don't understand something they tend to get bored with it. While practice mode has enough options to set up almost any situation to practice, it's not structured enough to help people understand deeper mechanics and what they're doing right and wrong. Tekken needs to be more accessible. People brought this up a lot during Dark Souls 2 discussion, and I agree: Making a game more accessible =/= dumbing it down. I'm not advocating culling move lists, reducing characters, or anything like that. But, there has to be more guidance from the game about how to play, whether in the form of individual character tuts or a mission mode to practice specific techniques or situations, and a better way to measure progress beyond W-L.

 

[DEATH™]

American market is definitely a big part for Namco... North American console sales majority comes from this region. Out of the 2 M wordlwide sales expected of TTT2 at least 900K is expected to come from NA region. There's 300+ million people here and unlike countries like China/India/Indonesia the price of games and average income of the public sector accommodate them to spend in this hobby.

And again about Virtua Fighter, there isn't anybody that legitimately plays it and complains about it's complexity. It's by far one of the easier games to execute moves in and do cool things in a 3D space. It has depth with the way AM2 designed the character's move lists.

And the changes to Final Showdown I believe just make the game more punishing for people who guess wrong. The whole game revolves around trying to get your opponent in a throw mixup and hence throws make up an extremely fundamental part of the game. FS took away the ability to buffer in multiple throw breaks which I suppose evened the playing field a little bit between the less and more skilled players. And I also think they got rid of the sidestep attacks, but those changes barely do anything to make VF less complex IMO, just more offensive. Any VF vet in this thread please feel free to correct a VF noob like myself. Hence, I don't think the change from VF5 Xbox to VF5FS is analagous to the changes I'm expecting for Tekken 7. I'm expecting SF3 --> SF4 or MvC2 --> MvC3 levels of changes.

You're point in VF is the same point I'm trying to make in Tekken. We all know that this game largely plays about movement, and no matter how you don't know the matchup, if you got the solid fundamentals, you're gonna win. People who learned how to move imeadiately saw results. The problem most of the time is people trying to learn frames and matchups where they should focus on fundamentals first...

(and what I know is they nerfed VF's movement there too... which is for more aggressive play, Japan complained about it).

And about NA sales, TTT2 hasn't have a price drop yet compared to T6 (where just after a couple of months already reached $30). The game got long legs, I'm not worried about it.

EDIT: I completely agree braves... This game needs is the most indepth tutorial for a fighting game... (and congrats for sticking out bro...)

If the movement part of Fight lab got 10 stages with varying exercises, that will greatly help...

P.S. Starcraft is hard, the entry barrier is much harder, all the micro and macro management is mind gobbling, but people still play it... That alone proves that the game doesn't have to be dumbed down for people to play it...

Yeah, this game needs a tutorial mode and a story mode...

 

[AAK]

Starcraft 2 has a budget of nearly 100 mill dollars with a story mode that helps train the player how to use each unit and such. However, Starcraft 2 is getting destroyed by LoL and Dota2 which are 100x simpler to play compared to SC2.

I'm sorta confused about where you're going with VF5? I though you used VF5 as an example of where dumbing the game down so it's easier to play doesn't necessarily mean better sales. I'm just clarifying that VF5FS didn't dumb itself down IMO, just changed some things that affected the flow of the game but the "complexity" remains intact.

Again I'd love for Tekken 7 to retain every mechanic from TTT2 and build upon it with even more. I'd be happy beyond anything, but I have to be realistic with myself and say that will be toxic for the continuity of the series. And hence, I wish TTT2 was more popular and will be immortalized in the competitive scene the same way ST, 3rd Strike, and MvC2 were.

 

[DR2K]

Again I'd love for Tekken 7 to retain every mechanic from TTT2 and build upon it with even more. I'd be happy beyond anything, but I have to be realistic with myself and say that will be toxic for the continuity of the series. And hence, I wish TTT2 was more popular and will be immortalized in the competitive scene the same way ST, 3rd Strike, and MvC2 were.

Tekken 7 can keep all the mechanics TTT2 added, but make them more coherent to understand. I suppose streamlining it and dumbing down is a possibility.

Things like unique tag moves and combos shouldn't be something a player has to find out on the internet.

Rage being dependant on character relationships that aren't explained whatsoever in game should be universal.

Why do some launchers allow tag exchange, but others don't? Can this not be universal?

Making some inputs easier to land universally wouldn't break the game. For example Nina and Anna's combo throws. Incredibly cumbersome and unnatural to pull off and rarely come into high level play.(from what I've seen)

Throws and throw breaking. There has to be a better way to approach this.

Can anything be done to make combos easier for casuals and intermediate players without effecting high level play?

What about adding meter, ex and super moves like SCV? Tons of gimmicks they can work with to appease new players or bring back older ones.

 

[Sayah]

Speaking as a Tekken noob, while Fight Lab was an okay introduction to the game mechanics, it was still nowhere near enough to get competent at this game. I'm new to fighters in general, so maybe it's leagues beyond other games, but it's still not enough imo.

What attracted me to Tekken initially was the silly Nintendo costumes (so I guess I'm part of the "bad generation"), but the only reason I bought it and stuck with it was because I did some homework, watched some streams and figured out how the game plays. It's a deep, rewarding with game with TONS of content thats's hard to master. The problem is that it's incredibly overwhelming and for that reason difficult to fully understand, and when people don't understand something they tend to get bored with it. While practice mode has enough options to set up almost any situation to practice, it's not structured enough to help people understand deeper mechanics and what they're doing right and wrong. Tekken needs to be more accessible. People brought this up a lot during Dark Souls 2 discussion, and I agree: Making a game more accessible =/= dumbing it down. I'm not advocating culling move lists, reducing characters, or anything like that. But, there has to be more guidance from the game about how to play, whether in the form of individual character tuts or a mission mode to practice specific techniques or situations, and a better way to measure progress beyond W-L.

Exactly why I think heavy investment is needed in a tutorial mode that actually teaches people how to get better and makes the game more accessible to newcomers. Make me understand. Make me care about the game. Make me track my training progress. That's what a tutorial should do. And after playing through some of the Fight Lab and most of P4A's tutorial, I don't think either of those are anywhere close to what I could envision a tutorial to be. No disrespect to the teams that developed those tutorials and they probably did whatever they could with the time and money they had. Just wish devs could focus a lot of energy on tutorials. Even to go as far as making character-specific tutorials.

 

[DEATH™]

Starcraft 2 has a budget of nearly 100 mill dollars with a story mode that helps train the player how to use each unit and such. However, Starcraft 2 is getting destroyed by LoL and Dota2 which are 100x simpler to play compared to SC2.

I'm sorta confused about where you're going with VF5? I though you used VF5 as an example of where dumbing the game down so it's easier to play doesn't necessarily mean better sales. I'm just clarifying that VF5FS didn't dumb itself down IMO, just changed some things that affected the flow of the game but the "complexity" remains intact.

Again I'd love for Tekken 7 to retain every mechanic from TTT2 and build upon it with even more. I'd be happy beyond anything, but I have to be realistic with myself and say that will be toxic for the continuity of the series. And hence, I wish TTT2 was more popular and will be immortalized in the competitive scene the same way ST, 3rd Strike, and MvC2 were.

But Starcraft got the fanbase now and earn sufficiently enough that it can make expansions and also made a name for itself. It doesn't matter if the "competition" is easier, if you have more than enough players that support your game, and the genre overall getting more exposure, the publisher will be happy about it. People play Starcraft because of the things that make it Starcraft. You don't want it to change just because casuals can't go from bronze to silver, or you're gonna ruin the franchise (see Command and Conquer... ah the good ol days)

Same thing with Tekken, we are not competing generally with SF, we are trying to bolster fighting games in general (or SFxT willl not happen).

Kinda like going to McDonalds versus going to a fancy restaurant. McDonalds are always there and it comes cheap, but if you love food, you're not gonna go there often. But for some, McDonalds are enough, and find a fancy restaurant too expensive. But still, the fancy restaurant is there to give the people options. In the same way, Tekken is there when people want to try a higher-level fighting game or got sick with 2D games, and some can't go back...

(and I got your point in VF5, but then, what similar changes can you do to Tekken, yet the changes will still make Tekken, Tekken? That's the question. and as expected, people who don't play the game that wanted "changes" can't pinpoint anything. TBH the changes that people want are already there, a game where poking hurts, juggles don't hurt as much, requested characters came back... are you gonna take a step backwards by removing them?)

What I'm saying here is don't worry... It looks bleak in your area, but Tekken is still going good.

Tekken 7 can keep all the mechanics TTT2 added, but make them more coherent to understand. I suppose streamlining it and dumbing down is a possibility.

Again, against the dumbing down. More coherent to understand is the way to go. That small icons beside the moves, despite how a small step they are, helped GREATLY, how much more if they made more coherent stuff?

Things like unique tag moves and combos shouldn't be something a player has to find out on the internet.

They are there for us to find out, not to explore in the internet. That's the fun of it. Besides, Tag throws and special combos are not always preferred.

Rage being dependant on character relationships that aren't explained whatsoever in game should be universal.

For balance purposes, I can understand why they did that. If a Mishima Team can even get normal rage, they will be OP

Why do some launchers allow tag exchange, but others don't? Can this not be universal?

Some launchers are too easy to perform or the risk/reward is too good to be granted a tag buffer. Hopkicks are one... It crushes low, launches, and only -12. For that to kill red life is too OP

Making some inputs easier to land universally wouldn't break the game. For example Nina and Anna's combo throws. Incredibly cumbersome and unnatural to pull off and rarely come into high level play.(from what I've seen)

No, it's qcf so you will have a throw option out of a Nina and Anna crouchdash. you can still use uf+1+2 if you want, but for people who do snakedash alot, having the throw is invaluable

Throws and throw breaking. There has to be a better way to approach this.

They are there to break turtles. You can duck it and punish it if you want to. I punish whiffed throws with a FC df+2 launch so that's something.

Can anything be done to make combos easier for casuals and intermediate players without effecting high level play?

Gems Kappa

What about adding meter, ex and super moves like SCV? Tons of gimmicks they can work with to appease new players or bring back older ones.

Keep it on SF characters. Managing red life and rage is the meter management of the game, and PEOPLE DON'T MANAGE THEIR RED LIFE PROPERLY for some reason...

Responses in bold

 

[Sayah]

Tekken 7 can keep all the mechanics TTT2 added, but make them more coherent to understand. I suppose streamlining it and dumbing down is a possibility.

Things like unique tag moves and combos shouldn't be something a player has to find out on the internet.

Rage being dependant on character relationships that aren't explained whatsoever in game should be universal.

Why do some launchers allow tag exchange, but others don't? Can this not be universal?

Making some inputs easier to land universally wouldn't break the game. For example Nina and Anna's combo throws. Incredibly cumbersome and unnatural to pull off and rarely come into high level play.(from what I've seen)

Throws and throw breaking. There has to be a better way to approach this.

Can anything be done to make combos easier for casuals and intermediate players without effecting high level play?

What about adding meter, ex and super moves like SCV? Tons of gimmicks they can work with to appease new players or bring back older ones.

I don't think it's a matter of how hard Nina and Anna's command grab inputs are to do. They become really easy with shoulder buttons. Same thing with King and Armor King. And you probably don't seem them much in high-level matches because they are easy to break.

Same thing with combos. Initially, a newcomer will drop combos left and right even after spending a lot of time practicing them. But if you keep at it, it becomes second nature. Generally that happens sooner rather than later.

 

[AAK]

Things like unique tag moves and combos shouldn't be something a player has to find out on the internet.

I think they're meant to be like easter eggs, things like "woah cool they have a tag grab!" They've been in every game and it's pretty enjoyable to see them, like fighting Jade in MK2.

Rage being dependant on character relationships that aren't explained whatsoever in game should be universal.

The relationship chart makes a very diminutive effect on the overall result of the game. No one builds a team based on the relationship chart.

Why do some launchers allow tag exchange, but others don't? Can this not be universal?

You have to then begin to classify what is a launcher and what isn't, and some launchers only happen in counter hit. There are moves that give a crumple stun, double overstun, and some moves that have so much frame advantage they count as launchers. Also, the balance of the game hinges on what is tag bufferable or not. If hopkicks were tag bufferable the game wouldn't be very fun to play. Only exception is Lars which makes him so damned annoying, but at least it's slow (in the form of an orbital heel)

Making some inputs easier to land universally wouldn't break the game. For example Nina and Anna's combo throws. Incredibly cumbersome and unnatural to pull off and rarely come into high level play.(from what I've seen)

Nina/Anna chain throws are really easy actually. Learn how to buffer inputs and they become pretty easy. Other moves that have really high execution to pull off like the EWGF or JFSR are hard to pull off because they have a relatively high reward.

Throws and throw breaking. There has to be a better way to approach this.

This is surprising. Throws in Tekken are handled better than any other fighting game in my opinion. At least with Tekken there is a visual cue to tell you what type of grab is coming in order for you to break it. Unlike in SC or VF where you have to guess what type of grab just came at you.

Can anything be done to make combos easier for casuals and intermediate players without effecting high level play?

Doing a simple juggle in Tekken is really really easy. The harder combo's are there to reward people who put in the extra time to learn them. But I mean, this is prevelant in all fighting games, not just Tekken. SF4 with their 1 frame links, KOF13 with their HD combo's, UMvC3 with their Magneto/Zero combo's integrating hidden missiles and stuff/ etc.

What about adding meter, ex and super moves like SCV? Tons of gimmicks they can work with to appease new players or bring back older ones.

Tekken is a game where you battle someone with all the tools at every moment in the game. Adding meter IMO will take away so much of that.... but maybe it will be something Harada will put in to, who knows. I trust the Tekken team and hope it works well.

 

[Deps]

I don't see how drastically changing Tekken would do anything but put the series at risk (Tekken 4). Most people don't buy fighting games for the gameplay. The percentage of people who would even understand that it changed or what the changes meant is so small it's insignificant. The FGC (and in general people who actually know the mechanics of fighting games) is insignificant. T6 sold so well because it was an HD tekken on new consoles, with story mode, and on xbox for the first time. But to make Tekken bigger competitively, I agree that Tekken needs to be dumbed down/changed in SOME way, although maybe really good tutorials would also work.

As for the game comparisons....SF4 was so huge because there was a gap of 7 years between SF3-SF4 and SF4 brought back characters that are iconic to the series. Same with Marvel (10 year gap). If Namco stopped making Tekken games for 7 years then released a new one, it would sell as much as SF4.

LoL is so huge because it's free, and Dota 2 is NOT easy. SC2 will also get a boost in popularity when the upcoming expansion comes out.

 

[DEATH™]

I don't see how drastically changing Tekken would do anything but put the series at risk (Tekken 4). Most people don't buy fighting games for the gameplay. The percentage of people who would even understand that it changed or what the changes meant is so small it's insignificant. The FGC (and in general people who actually know the mechanics of fighting games) is insignificant. T6 sold so well because it was an HD tekken on new consoles, with story mode, and on xbox for the first time. But to make Tekken bigger competitively, I agree that Tekken needs to be dumbed down/changed in SOME way.

As for the game comparisons....SF4 was so huge because there was a gap of 7 years between SF3-SF4 and SF4 brought back characters that are iconic to the series. Same with Marvel (10 year gap). If Namco stopped making Tekken games for 7 years then released a new one, it would sell as much as SF4.

LoL is so huge because it's free, and Dota 2 is NOT easy. SC2 will also get a boost in popularity when the upcoming expansion comes out.

Please no dumbing down...Technically T4 is dumbed down, only one input for throws, no backdash to worry about, few chars and short movelist. The game got boring just as quick...

(and Harada said in that Tekken takes Tokyo interview that if the game started to not do well, it's just gonna go to some sort of hiatus so yeah...).

and yes, DotA is not easy... The team aspect of that game is serious biz...

 

[DR2K]

As for the game comparisons....SF4 was so huge because there was a gap of 7 years between SF3-SF4 and SF4 brought back characters that are iconic to the series. Same with Marvel (10 year gap). If Namco stopped making Tekken games for 7 years then released a new one, it would sell as much as SF4.

It's not just about sales, it's also about the influx of new players. SFIV saw a huge boost in their tournmanet scene because of a lot of major game play changes that were more friendly to new players. High damage Ultras, FA replacing parries, input leniancy, etc. . . catered to new comers without taking too much away from top level players.

No reason Tekken can't have this type of renissance, it's the biggest 3D fighter around and it would be a huge benefit to other 3D fighters as well if the same thing could happen.

 

[Terareflection]

I wouldn't mind Namco trimming down the movelists. They could also give greater application for lesser used moves too.

 

[Sayah]

I wouldn't mind Namco trimming down the movelists. They could also give greater application for lesser used moves too.

I'm already upset about the property changes of Nina's bitch slap.. Imagine not having b+1........no that can't happen.

 

[DEATH™]

It's not just about sales, it's also about the influx of new players. SFIV saw a huge boost in their tournmanet scene because of a lot of major game play changes that were more friendly to new players. High damage Ultras, FA replacing parries, input leniancy, etc. . . catered to new comers without taking too much away from top level players.

No reason Tekken can't have this type of renissance, it's the biggest 3D fighter around and it would be a huge benefit to other 3D fighters as well if the same thing could happen.

Not really... rage are here for that comeback mechanic for Tekken, bound is there initially for people to have a panic move when they got a sudden launch, also the movement nerf too. All of them are hated... Not until TTT2 where bound started to make sense, rage became a controllable defeatable mechanic and the movement got buffed...

Part of the reason I don't want them to make things "easier" because for some reason it really doesn't do anything but to alter the very solid game into a very scrubby one...

I wouldn't mind Namco trimming down the movelists. They could also give greater application for lesser used moves too.

No...

I will personally sharpshooter Harada if he decides to cut even one string of my multithrows. Or remove one of Lei's stances completely, or Steve's Dempsey Roll...

 

[Lost Fragment]

Can anything be done to make combos easier for casuals and intermediate players without effecting high level play?

Do people really have problems with combos in Tekken? Maybe I'm just playing easy-combo characters but I don't have problems with them at all.