I was referring to this: http://ecthrowdown.com/tekken-tag-tournament-2-pools/
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Tekken Tag Tournament 2 |OT| Awaiting the "Final Battle"
- Thread starter AAK
- Start date
TxSF can try the KOF style teams (it's just a T6 team battle). It can justify the big roster.
T7 can have both Tag and Team battles. And you can have a mix of 1 vs. tag, tag, vs, tag, 1 vs team and scenario campaign levels on your story mode plus couple of minigames... That would be more epic than other story modes out there right now...
DEATH™;57916222 said:
Hey, none of us know the future. And I never used the word "dumb down". I'm just saying they're gonna make some changes. Maybe they'll make it more deep, maybe it'll make it more shallow. Either way if SC2 doesn't meet its target, then they'll do "some" big change to make that target.
The difference with Star Wars is that meets its projected sales target even if it didn't match Marvel. TTT2 didn't.
Tekken back in 1999-2001 was THE BRAND of fighting games. It's because of that era the Tekken series has the insane lifetime sales outselling many legendary franchises including Metal Gear. Tekken 3 alone I think did 7-8 million in sales. Namco wants those sales back, and that's why I'm predicting a change.
Command & Conquer is also a massive franchise with the red alert and generals spin offs. Which one? I believe each of those branches have their own markets and gameplay types. I always looked a it where Red alert was the very casual audience rts while generals was the more hardcore starcraft competitor and the others like tiberium war and such were just in between. And about the F2P bin, that's an extremely profitable bin that a little game called League of Legends is printing cash in.
EDIT:
Aris streaming an interview with Rickstah, Rip, and special guest Bloodhawk!
http://www.twitch.tv/avoidingthepuddle
I suppose Bloodhawk will talk about ECT.
Hey, none of us know the future. And I never used the word "dumb down". I'm just saying they're gonna make some changes. Maybe they'll make it more deep, maybe it'll make it more shallow. Either way if SC2 doesn't meet its target, then they'll do "some" big change to make that target.
The difference with Star Wars is that meets its projected sales target even if it didn't match Marvel. TTT2 didn't.
Tekken back in 1999-2001 was THE BRAND of fighting games. It's because of that era the Tekken series has the insane lifetime sales outselling many legendary franchises including Metal Gear. Tekken 3 alone I think did 7-8 million in sales. Namco wants those sales back, and that's why I'm predicting a change.
Command & Conquer is also a massive franchise with the red alert and generals spin offs. Which one? I believe each of those branches have their own markets and gameplay types. I always looked a it where Red alert was the very casual audience rts while generals was the more hardcore starcraft competitor and the others like tiberium war and such were just in between. And about the F2P bin, that's an extremely profitable bin that a little game called League of Legends is printing cash in.
Starcraft 2 did make some changes, but it's still the same Starcraft basically, kinda like how Tekken changed after all these years... The meta-will change but it will still be and feel like the same game. You can't really add something to Tekken at this point, it's just the matter of reducing it... would they think of deleting launchers in favor of a cinematic super to reduce combo drops and make the noobs who complain much about launchers shut it? I hope not... It's not gonna make Tekken, well, Tekken...
And look, TTT2 only missed 200k, and it's just half the year... It's gonna get better especially when PS4 comes out and PS3 and its games come in cheap (and not everybody will transition to PS4 immeadiately, that's a given, plus the economy right now makes it more assuring). And another Black Friday sale will put this over... and hopefully Wii U does better by then...
Also I'm talking about them all... The Tiberium series, Red Alert and Generals... CNC 3 (Kane's Wrath) is their last decent game (which is basically a Zero Hour copycat). Since they got bought by EA, they didn't give a care to the gameplay... Red Alert 3 got it worse with the Allies sucking, and Empire not having a decently priced antiair at all (kinda like how Street Fighter got lopsided mismatches). They made a expansion that technically solves the problems but they only made it campaign only so they won't bother polishing it. Command and Conquer 4 tried to make a "breath of fresh air" by completely diverting away from the CnC formula of building bases into a game of DotA with moving Tree of Lifes... And I guess you never heard of the game... that's how sucky it was... It won't matter if it's F2P... What they are saying now is you can buy yourself to make more powerful units, so that's bull... That game will go down...
Ya'll need to see this Rickstah and JFJ fight and the latest Wednesday Night Fights.
http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/b/404071319
4:31:08
http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/b/404071319
4:31:08
Wow, coincidentally the ATP live show was discussing exactly the same thing we were. And it looks like everyone (Aris,Rip,Rickstah,Bloodhawk) all unanimously want Tekken to be dumbed down.
Personally, I honestly have no idea what they can do from here. If they dumb it down like SCIV to SCV it definitely won't be as fun as TTT2 for me (probably). The only thing I can think of is a reboot with a completely different mechanic for movement and such like how they went from Tekken 2 to Tekken 3.
Since it is Tekken it is going to be a 1 v 1 or 2 v 2 style game. I want them to make a game that LOOKS real awesome. The biggest draw to Tekken for me is how choreographed the fights look. VF games try really hard in this facet too but because of the diverse styles in Tekken, I get impressed with Tekken way more. Let's look at some of the greatest 1 v 1 fights in history:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DASVxFS5tg
Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo has to be among the greatest choreographed ever scenes that could still be "T Rated". There was the Desh fight scene as well in Bourne Ultimatum but that style doesn't fit an FGC style videogame and might be too M rated.
I would love to get matches like that in real time in a videogame. To do that Namco would have to make every character move uniquely with their stance. They did do this in T6 with Lei how he could walk forward and backward in his drunken stance but I want them to animate it that fluidly for every character in their default stance. There needs to be character specific animations when getting hit depending on their size and gender (ESPECIALLY FOR GRABS). The clothing they wear also gets affected in gameplay. The environment plays a MASSIVE role in the fighting where so many things are interactable.
I know a lot of what I talked about is eye candy and making it structured in a "competitive" videogame would most probably have to introduce a tonne of more variables into the equation. But I dunno, if Namco can pull it off to make a game look as flashy and dynamic as those scene yet still be organized and structured to play as a fighting game I think by that point the public would still be attracted to it to at least play it for the novelty factor even if they don't want to dissect the gameplay, the same way they did for when Tekken 3 first came out.
That is the kind of reboot I feel could work where it's not necessarily dumbed down but there is a huge novelty factor to the game that would really wow people when they look at it for the first time.
EDIT: But of coarse everything I wrote could be a horrible idea and Harada would be facepalming reading what I just wrote.
Personally, I honestly have no idea what they can do from here. If they dumb it down like SCIV to SCV it definitely won't be as fun as TTT2 for me (probably). The only thing I can think of is a reboot with a completely different mechanic for movement and such like how they went from Tekken 2 to Tekken 3.
Since it is Tekken it is going to be a 1 v 1 or 2 v 2 style game. I want them to make a game that LOOKS real awesome. The biggest draw to Tekken for me is how choreographed the fights look. VF games try really hard in this facet too but because of the diverse styles in Tekken, I get impressed with Tekken way more. Let's look at some of the greatest 1 v 1 fights in history:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DASVxFS5tg
Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo has to be among the greatest choreographed ever scenes that could still be "T Rated". There was the Desh fight scene as well in Bourne Ultimatum but that style doesn't fit an FGC style videogame and might be too M rated.
I would love to get matches like that in real time in a videogame. To do that Namco would have to make every character move uniquely with their stance. They did do this in T6 with Lei how he could walk forward and backward in his drunken stance but I want them to animate it that fluidly for every character in their default stance. There needs to be character specific animations when getting hit depending on their size and gender (ESPECIALLY FOR GRABS). The clothing they wear also gets affected in gameplay. The environment plays a MASSIVE role in the fighting where so many things are interactable.
I know a lot of what I talked about is eye candy and making it structured in a "competitive" videogame would most probably have to introduce a tonne of more variables into the equation. But I dunno, if Namco can pull it off to make a game look as flashy and dynamic as those scene yet still be organized and structured to play as a fighting game I think by that point the public would still be attracted to it to at least play it for the novelty factor even if they don't want to dissect the gameplay, the same way they did for when Tekken 3 first came out.
That is the kind of reboot I feel could work where it's not necessarily dumbed down but there is a huge novelty factor to the game that would really wow people when they look at it for the first time.
EDIT: But of coarse everything I wrote could be a horrible idea and Harada would be facepalming reading what I just wrote.
TBH I am pretty disappointed to them, not because our opinions differ, but Aris basically said the same thing that Tekken sucks at a tourney level at TEKKEN 6 which contradicts what he's saying right now about TTT2. In Tekken 6, all the randomness that's happening can't be controlled, especially rage (which is his point before in alot of podcasts), and now they are complaining that it's the same thing now because we can't punish and we screw up all the time? It goes back to the phrase "A man blames his tools for his lack of skill" which is basically what those four pretty much indirectly said... We suck.
Here's the problem, He talked about the competitive edge losing for some of the veterans (which was pretty understandable), but discouraging a new guy for learning a game? I would not get mad and understand him more if it weren't for RunitBlack shouting in the stream chat how T6 players were a bunch of sissies and we need to suck it up. (And his first game is TTT2, and he's "supposedly gotta suck", funny thing is he gets banned everytime he has to say). I think we just lost our competitive edge... really... and it just opened my eyes how Tekken community here in America sucks...
Actually, you're the one guy who's more qualified, as you're a developing player, perfectly..
I gotta ask you (and Degen probably too) to answer a couple of questions...
1. You guys basically are pretty new to Tekken (when I say new, problbly at least started seriously at T6 at least, correct me if I'm wrong). Now you guys are learning the game, is it ok with you guys to take away some characters so you can know the matchups better, knowing that your mains might also get a chance of getting shafted?
2. We all know we get beat up pretty badly by Sayah, AAK and Wonkey everytime. Of course we want to win someday against them, but at the same time it seems like it would take an eternity to do so, and sometimes we feel like the game favors them greatly. Will you want to have a game that would give you a bit of an edge against the veterans?
3. We all know that Tekken is hard, would you want to have a simpler game after this? or would you prefer grinding this out? Do you feel like having a easier game would be better, or would you love to have a better challenge?
DEATH™;57928946 said:
Actually, Aris didn't articulate himself properly. What he meant was, for TTT2 to be a good tournament game the same way T6 was, is when both players are JDCR/Knee caliber level players. He said as it currently was, there is no American that plays "tournament level" because they fail to take in all the variables occurring simultaneously and just end up resorting to tag crashing and hopkicking randomly. But the Koreans are the only calibre players that have managed to eliminate this element of "randomness" which sort of renders all the US player helpless.
But I mean, they had Bloodhawk there, and he also echoed their sentiments. He's also a guy that studied the game extensively and did hours upon hours of homework memorizing frame data so I respect his opinion. I suppose those guys have all reached a point in their Tekken careers where they actually want to start winning and they feel a massive impediment with TTT2 unlike in T6 where they felt a lot more in control. People like you and I play for the love of the game and don't care about winning or losing. (I'm a Muslim so even when I do make top 3 at any tournament I return the money I won because I can't gamble). In the end it was their opinions but we can definitely make some inferences of the game based on their credentials in fighting games.
We're open minded bro
. Maybe ZTS would have thrown an insult here and there but he doesn't want you to take it personally We all value anyone and everyone's opinion in TekkenGAF.Yeah, you're right I didn't know what a launcher was until I joined NeoGAF. I didn't know what a punish was until after Tekken Tag Tournament 2 came out. Law probably won't shafted, but I don't care if they remove characters, I'll just learn someone else.DEATH;57930016 said:
The only edge I need is my own knowledge of the game. I have seen people beat AAK and Sayah using my characters. That is my problem, not the game's problem.
No, I didn't learn of this stuff about Tekken for it to get taken away, I would probably stop playing Tekken if it was too much simpler than it is now. It depends on what they do.
Actually, Aris didn't articulate himself properly. What he meant was, for TTT2 to be a good tournament game the same way T6 was, is when both players are JDCR/Knee caliber level players. He said as it currently was, there is no American that plays "tournament level" because they fail to take in all the variables occurring simultaneously and just end up resorting to tag crashing and hopkicking randomly. But the Koreans are the only calibre players that have managed to eliminate this element of "randomness" which sort of renders all the US player helpless.
But I mean, they had Bloodhawk there, and he also echoed their sentiments. He's also a guy that studied the game extensively and did hours upon hours of homework memorizing frame data so I respect his opinion. I suppose those guys have all reached a point in their Tekken careers where they actually want to start winning and they feel a massive impediment with TTT2 unlike in T6 where they felt a lot more in control. People like you and I play for the love of the game and don't care about winning or losing. (I'm a Muslim so even when I do make top 3 at any tournament I return the money I won because I can't gamble). In the end it was their opinions but we can definitely make some inferences of the game based on their credentials in fighting games.
We're open minded bro
Here's the problem... He downplayed the fact that us not receiving the game just as early as the Koreans and Japanese (remember the first part), which is actually HUGE... His point about Injustice being fun because they are discovering stuff is HUGE... West Coast forming their own playstyle compared to East Coast is HUGE... And we didn't have that in TTT2...
The problem is even right now we are trying to play the game stealing what Koreans and Japanese found... If we explored those techs ourselves, it would be easily engrained to our mind by now and with the right amount of practice we will be on Korean level right now (with a different style compared to them)... What makes it worse is we took the game so late that we watch the game on youtube and see the optimal way to play while we haven't practice how to do it. This explains why Aris hates watching American Tekken is because he started to accustomed to watch a more brewed Korean play. Bloodhawk is right that we are gonna get there, and based on their attitudes, only RunitBlack, Kayyal, Speedkicks, the ATL (and to some extent the MidEast) crew and the other youngsters will reach that....
Look, they are worshipping Koreans everytime, but you dont see JDCR get punished much by other Koreans by doing blocked AK f+2,1, and he gets away too with 3+4,2 which other American players know how to float... What I'm saying here is Koreans formed their own set of playstyle and they focus on that (whiff punishing). We can form our own playstyle here and time comes it would give them trouble...
I forgot to ask too...
4. Would you be ok to trim some of the moves of your character? A great example here is Forest Law, I see him replacing Marshall if a reboot comes, but looking at what Forest is now, you will lose the DSS mixups and change it into cancels... I know you just recently explored Law's DSS so I want to know more what's your opinion of it... then I'll try to reply
I actually inferred something different from the show. I felt that Aris was saying that TTT2 is so massive that despite getting the game 2 years later than the Koreans, there is still so much to learn from the game's nuances. And it is true, a huge amount of tag crash setups were discovered once practice mode was available to everyone among other things. And since there are a lot of things unique to teams, a lot of discovering takes place when trying to find the optimal combo for your team. I only ever stole Hwoarang and Julia's max damage tag assault fillers at the wall from Koreans. Every other combo for that team I optimized myself since no one else played that team and in those whole 2 years of Korean/Japanese Tekken no one had anything like that. That was an amazingly refreshing discovery period for me. Same thing could be said about Aris and his Wang/Dragunov discovery period. Having the practice mode in T6 didn't really offer any room for more discovery because of how many fewer variables there were in T6.
And about the 2 years of waiting not being a problem when comparing the "tournament level of players", he uses that in conjunction with T6 as well. It took 2 years for US to get T6 as well and players like Anakin who never had the arcade version still manage to be world contenders for that game. He feels that doesn't apply as much in TTT2 because even people in Korea are finding the game too hard to play. Bloodhawk was saying that JDCR and him had conversations about this and the they're trying to rejuvenate the game with the CafeID leagues and Tekken strike as a last ditch effort to bring popularity back up. I'm guessing Aris is making the point that the 2 year gap would be a valid argument if people in Korea weren't quitting but people in the US were, when in reality people from both US and Korean scenes are quitting.
And about the 2 years of waiting not being a problem when comparing the "tournament level of players", he uses that in conjunction with T6 as well. It took 2 years for US to get T6 as well and players like Anakin who never had the arcade version still manage to be world contenders for that game. He feels that doesn't apply as much in TTT2 because even people in Korea are finding the game too hard to play. Bloodhawk was saying that JDCR and him had conversations about this and the they're trying to rejuvenate the game with the CafeID leagues and Tekken strike as a last ditch effort to bring popularity back up. I'm guessing Aris is making the point that the 2 year gap would be a valid argument if people in Korea weren't quitting but people in the US were, when in reality people from both US and Korean scenes are quitting.
I think the problem is not about Koreans thinking the game is too hard, the question is "Is it worth it?". Remember even the koreans are tweeting harada about the expensive arcade model for TTT2 up to recent days. Its also mentioned by the koreans themselves that people play te game because others play it too... This is where the initial arcade boycott hurts... Arcades tried to boycott the game which makes other players move to play other games (LoL). now the game comes back and you wonder why I still have to play this expensive hard game when most of my friends play LoL now? Its the same thing happening here... Aris is like why should I play this game when I can bang bang brainlessly with deathstroke and all of my friends play it too?
TBH now I see why this game needs new blood, I hope the online warriors can go to tourneys and love the game more... I disagree with aris thinking about online players will just be discouraged by playing in tourneys... He thinks about wanting to win while a online warrior would think about having friends and just playing and enjoying the game...
The cancels are stupid because if you don't attack immediately after the cancel it renders the cancel pointless. I'm also not very good at doing cancels so sometimes I'll try to do a cancel but end up doing the string instead. I prefer DSS over Forest Law, but if DSS would be axed I wouldn't care.DEATH;57931026 said:I forgot to ask too...
4. Would you be ok to trim some of the moves of your character? A great example here is Forest Law, I see him replacing Marshall if a reboot comes, but looking at what Forest is now, you will lose the DSS mixups and change it into cancels... I know you just recently explored Law's DSS so I want to know more what's your opinion of it... then I'll try to reply
Not new to the series, but it's fair to say that I didn't care about many technical aspects until T6DEATH™;57930016 said:
1. There is an unsustainably large amount of characters in TTT2, but that's what we all wanted. I wouldn't expect 3/4 of them to be in the next canonical game in the series, especially if some big gameplay changes are implemented
2. I can totally take all 3 of them at the same time as long as I have The Gimmick Advantage™
3. I'd support the series either way, but a simpler game than TTT2 is welcome. Sometimes I get overwhelmed by all the data in this game. All these characters have a hundred moves and I'm supposed to remember what punishes/counters/crushes what, what tracks, whether each move in every string hits high/mid/low, etc. Even after winning it feels like I just got punched in the brain sometimes. You don't get that feeling often from, say, SSF4, and I really appreciate the lack of stress as a result
edit:
That's fine by me, as long as the signature moves stay intact. Let Ogre keep what makes him Ogre, and make sure he has tools for every situation. The rest was always fluffDEATH™;57931026 said:I forgot to ask too...
4. Would you be ok to trim some of the moves of your character? A great example here is Forest Law, I see him replacing Marshall if a reboot comes, but looking at what Forest is now, you will lose the DSS mixups and change it into cancels... I know you just recently explored Law's DSS so I want to know more what's your opinion of it... then I'll try to reply
DEATH™;57932532 said:
I mean, if it's really the price of the game that was pushing them away, they could have bought the console version which is pretty much the equivalent of 100 losses in the arcade. JDCR himself says it's the difficulty of the game that's preventing the big community and new players alike. I would have thought the graphics/character design/lore/flash alone would be enough for new players to get some interest but in the end it won't stick with them.
MrCookiepants
Member
Every time I read Sayah's name it reminds of this old Tekken ripoff from Konami back on the PS1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT8xdOuE8mA
Even the hit sparks are the same :lol It looks so bad now, but I remember having a blast.
I've always dreamed of a fighter like this. Tekken's always been the closest thing, but they could definitely take it much further.
I'm here for a complete visual overhaul in Tekken 7. I'd love a grittier style with redesigned characters, a more dynamic camera and destructible environments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT8xdOuE8mA
Even the hit sparks are the same :lol It looks so bad now, but I remember having a blast.
I've always dreamed of a fighter like this. Tekken's always been the closest thing, but they could definitely take it much further.
I'm here for a complete visual overhaul in Tekken 7. I'd love a grittier style with redesigned characters, a more dynamic camera and destructible environments.
MrCookiepants
Member
Well. Compare Tim Burton's Batman to Chris Nolan's Batman. The newer movies are darker and more realistic. Not sure if gritty was the right word, but that's what I meant by it.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Sorry about that Kadey. I was away. I'll probably be on tomorrow night or evening. We can play then if you want.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Namco cannot and should not change anything about Tekken just to cater to other people. Namco should realize that it doesn't matter how great your game is, how many features it has, and whatever else you throw in to make it a better packaged deal. When people have a certain opinion about something it is almost impossible to change it. They just don't like the game for their own personal reasons, so no matter what you do, they are never going to buy or acknowledge it. They should not waste their time with those people but rather the people who has gotten the series to where it has now.
The fighting game genre is a niche genre to begin with. It is going to be harder and harder to convince modern gamers who are born within this generation to first person shooters and various action games to like a fighting game that has a hardcore following in this day and age. Look at how most games are built these days. The last few games I've played has a tremendous amount of spoon feeding the players. Modern gamers have way less patience than gamers growing up back then. And then you have other factors. You have multiple consoles and dozens of releases each week across them all coupled with a bad economy, people are going to handpick what they want carefully.
Namco should just stick to what they've been doing with the series forever. Last I checked, Tekken is the biggest selling fighting game franchise worldwide as well as the most popular. They don't have to change anything because you know, they are already on top.
The fighting game genre is a niche genre to begin with. It is going to be harder and harder to convince modern gamers who are born within this generation to first person shooters and various action games to like a fighting game that has a hardcore following in this day and age. Look at how most games are built these days. The last few games I've played has a tremendous amount of spoon feeding the players. Modern gamers have way less patience than gamers growing up back then. And then you have other factors. You have multiple consoles and dozens of releases each week across them all coupled with a bad economy, people are going to handpick what they want carefully.
Namco should just stick to what they've been doing with the series forever. Last I checked, Tekken is the biggest selling fighting game franchise worldwide as well as the most popular. They don't have to change anything because you know, they are already on top.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Lol me too. I thought I was the only one. I still have that game and Saya was one of my mains. The soundtrack was/is AMAZING. Well, at least I think it is. It was a seemingly slow paced game, but I had a lot of fun with it and it was quite solid once you figured out the gameplay mechanics and reversal system.
A severe visual overhaul would be interesting, but if they are aiming for more realism or even a grittier style, the juggles will probably have to be toned down significantly. I hope they wouldn't go overboard though because Tekken has a certain charm and uniqueness to it that helps distinguish itself from other fighters.
FormallyFamicom
Member
DEATH™;57930016 said:
Hey I'm hella new!
1. I don't feel like I've even found a true main, so I wouldn't care much if they reduced the roster. I'm not the type that gets too attached to characters either. Siegfried in Soul Cal is about as close as I come to a loyalist, and I've gotten over the signficant changes they've made to Nighty/Sieg over each game.
2. I don't think about things like that so I'm not sure how to answer this. I am of the opinion that if a player is simply better than you, while more simple mechanics could help you get better faster, the better player would still utilize them better than you. We see this with X-Factor in Marvel. It's a derp mechanic built to help the loser still have a chance to win, but the best players still derp with it better than anyone else. Virtua Fighter is much easier to jump into than Tekken with its system mechanics but it's still incredibly hard to beat someone good at it. It's an uphill battle regardless. The only real edge is a game with all new mechanics means everyone has to learn from ground zero, but a new Tekken wouldn't go THAT far.
3. Tekken could stand to be easier. Smaller roster, less moves, less...difficult movement. I'd play that game. BUT, at the same time, that doesn't mean I believe "hard" games don't deserve to exist. Tekken doesn't have to be for everyone. There are already so many fighting games, and nothing else out there quite matches Tekken's depth. That would be a shame to lose. The community just has to continue playing their game, trying to grow their game, and embracing anyone interested in it, while understanding the knowledge required to play it effectively will always be a barrier to having a super large player base. The game of your dreams already exists! Be happier for it.
All that said, I'm not sure I really believe Harada will do something drastic to the gameplay. Roster will decrease, maybe some moves will be taken out, small things. If sales are the only concern, then load up the game with single player goodness to tap into that casual audience again. Reviving the arcade business across Asia though, not really sure what the answer is for that.
Master Thespian
Member
I think this is funny because FS has reduced movelists and simplified system mechanics. The core of the game is still in place and no one would argue that it isn't still Virtua Fighter. But for some reason, suggesting the same thing for Tekken turns it into something else entirely? Just because they poorly implemented changes into Tekken 4 doesn't mean any change is bad either. We still have walls, which are a huge part of Tekken gameplay, left from Tekken 4.
If you still have the ability to move as fluidly in Tekken 7 as you had in any other iteration without the artificial input barrier, is the fundamental game any different? If they removed some near useless moves (in the grand scheme of each character's movelist), would it stop being Tekken? If they consolidated the movelist inputs (ex, throws having universal button inputs) to make them easier to remember (something SoulCalibur, Virtua Fighter, and Dead or Alive all did over the course of their development), is it no longer Tekken? If you make the juggles look more visually dynamic, is it a new game?
Is the definition for Tekken that narrow?
How much exactly did AM2 remove from FS? All I can think of is that they removed sidestep attacks and multi-input throwbreaks. What else did they remove since I only played VF4:Evo for a bit and I can't remember. That still is VF to me.
About the "useless" moves, well yes, in my opinion they aren't useless. The more moves you take away from the game, the more and more you are forcing the player to use tools shoved in their face rather than giving them the liberty to choose and explore their own playstyle. The big thing about Tekken's massive movelists is how much freedom it gives the player to express they're playstyle.
Have you ever played a FT10 against somebody else? That is a time where the massive movelist of Tekken can really shine. As you play the other guy over and over again they adapt to your moves as you expose them. Having all those extra tools gives you a new way to surprise your opponent. Some people might claim that these are gimmicks but no human is a machine and they will eventually break. So yes, IMO the vast movelist of Tekken is something I really value in the game and definitely belongs.
About changing input methods... I always felt Tekken's control scheme was very intuitive where each button corresponds to each limb. Grabs can get confusing for the player I guess since the inputs might feel arbitrary, BUT every character that has been introduced after Tekken 5 has pretty much been getting homogenized throw inputs. Zafina, Bob, Miguel, Lars, Leo, Lili, Dragunov, Alisa all have their double handed grabs allocated to a 1+2 input and their left hand breaks allocated to 1+3 or 1+4 inputs and their right hand breaks have been allocated 2+4 or 2+3 inputs. So yes, all the new characters being introduced post 2004 are losing the variation of the previous cast. But again, if you homogenize it to a consistent input you lose the option of making unique setups where you buffer those grabs off of a lot more unique moves. What I mean is, or example, being Hwoarang I can buffer a f+2+3 double handed grab from his u/f+2 which gives frame advantage on block or I can mix it up with 2+4 which is the right handed grab. If Hwoarang was to get the consistent inputs of having the 2 plus any kick button only outputting a right hand break throw I lose that freedom of getting extra setups. Again, it's a minor thing but it's something I can enjoy in Tekken with the way the input is and the options it gives you. Yes more homework is necessary but it also what makes the game so fun to play.
I can agree with you about the movement, that could definitely be simplified to at least Tekken Tag 1 levels of fidelity.
I kind of like Famicom and Kadey's posts about how a technical game like Tekken deserves to exist in a market where everything is being more and more casualized for the masses. But alas, let's see what the future holds.
About the "useless" moves, well yes, in my opinion they aren't useless. The more moves you take away from the game, the more and more you are forcing the player to use tools shoved in their face rather than giving them the liberty to choose and explore their own playstyle. The big thing about Tekken's massive movelists is how much freedom it gives the player to express they're playstyle.
Have you ever played a FT10 against somebody else? That is a time where the massive movelist of Tekken can really shine. As you play the other guy over and over again they adapt to your moves as you expose them. Having all those extra tools gives you a new way to surprise your opponent. Some people might claim that these are gimmicks but no human is a machine and they will eventually break. So yes, IMO the vast movelist of Tekken is something I really value in the game and definitely belongs.
About changing input methods... I always felt Tekken's control scheme was very intuitive where each button corresponds to each limb. Grabs can get confusing for the player I guess since the inputs might feel arbitrary, BUT every character that has been introduced after Tekken 5 has pretty much been getting homogenized throw inputs. Zafina, Bob, Miguel, Lars, Leo, Lili, Dragunov, Alisa all have their double handed grabs allocated to a 1+2 input and their left hand breaks allocated to 1+3 or 1+4 inputs and their right hand breaks have been allocated 2+4 or 2+3 inputs. So yes, all the new characters being introduced post 2004 are losing the variation of the previous cast. But again, if you homogenize it to a consistent input you lose the option of making unique setups where you buffer those grabs off of a lot more unique moves. What I mean is, or example, being Hwoarang I can buffer a f+2+3 double handed grab from his u/f+2 which gives frame advantage on block or I can mix it up with 2+4 which is the right handed grab. If Hwoarang was to get the consistent inputs of having the 2 plus any kick button only outputting a right hand break throw I lose that freedom of getting extra setups. Again, it's a minor thing but it's something I can enjoy in Tekken with the way the input is and the options it gives you. Yes more homework is necessary but it also what makes the game so fun to play.
I can agree with you about the movement, that could definitely be simplified to at least Tekken Tag 1 levels of fidelity.
I kind of like Famicom and Kadey's posts about how a technical game like Tekken deserves to exist in a market where everything is being more and more casualized for the masses. But alas, let's see what the future holds.
Master Thespian
Member
This is just from VF5R to VF5FS.
You're forcing the opponent to learn defenses to all of these moves more than anything. Any Tekken character could have their movelist halved and they'd still be far and away the biggest movelists in all fighting games.
All I play are long sets and I never am at a loss for moves to use. Out of Mitsu's 70 or so moves, I use about 15 regularly and another 30-ish sparingly. There's still a ton of moves for me to whip out when I need the element of surprise. If anything, I think the extra moves serve as a crutch for weak play.
If all throws were done with a combination of 1+3, 2+4, or 1+2 there would be no shortage of bufferable moves or setups. They will change, and good players like yourself will adapt.
At the end of the day, you lose older players who for whatever reason aren't interested in a game anymore. You need to replace them with new people or it won't be economically feasible to continue making new entries (or they will become underfunded shells of what they once were).
Master Thespian
Member
JDCR says Tekken has become too hard for Korea, which is why it's not popular over there anymore.
The game is too hard for the country with the absolute best players.
Think about that for a second.
But alas, these are just my opinions and I suppose I am just one in a minority.
EDIT: And yes, I'm also someone that just loves to tinker and have a fun match and feel like I'm actually controlling a real live martial arts practitioner. I don't care about winning. For people that want to win, I do suppose the complexity of making sure all variables are accounted for is too much for some people. My views are purely expressed from the point of view of someone that loves to see complexity.
On the topic of Korea, Tekken is still way simpler than something like Starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 has probably 3x more variables than Tekken with all the units, micro and macro-managing involved. Unless SC2 is also dying there has to be another reason for Tekken losing popularity in Korea other than the difficulty.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Very good.
Europe doesn't whine about toughness, we don't have time for that while actually playing.
Edit: Btw JDCR year ago complained that Tag2 is better for noobies. JDCR says things.
Believe it or not, Tekken 6 went to this route... you see characters actually dying, desire for power, and war-related backstories... and guess what, many casuals don't like the style... Now, they went to a more light-hearted route in TTT2 and other people now don't like it... either way... PEOPLE WILL COMPLAIN...
Here's the problem...
1. The game relies on movement. Every single attacks are close range and projectiles are sidesteppable. All of the variables that people complain about the game will be eliminated with great movement. Thats how powerful movement is. Now why you gonna make a move so powerful and make it a braindead thing? Even as simple as giving all characters a simple walk would drastically change the way the game plays. Now what if make it a bit punishable? You ended up making movement "complicated" again, as they have to think when is the proper time moving. What's the point then?
2. The movement and the amount of characters are there for exploration. One of the greatest boon of Tekken 4 is the movelist is so small and the character amount so few that you basically explored the whole game for a couple of months while TTT1 was still booming. The tech exploration part is gone.and the game got boring really quick (which is a bad thing, this is one of the reasons T4 died in arcades). Look, right now I am exploring King's b~1+2~1+2 cause it looks like it will give a guaranteed hopknee, giving King a throw launcher. AFAIK I might the only one testing it out. You cant do that on a smaller movelist. You also affect characters like Lei who lives with stances. Would you trim his move list and remove his animal stances so noobs can play as Jackie Chan wannabe whenever they want? People love exploring the game...
The problem is what Kadey said... people now love to be spoonfed everytime. It always go back in people's attitudes. The game trains you to have patience, and thrives about exploring techs.... you take away characters and moves and you take that away.... but people nowadays just want to pick up a game and expect the game to pour skittles on the screen already... its perfectly said by Aris when he said "why do I have to play this game if I can bang bang with deathstroke all day?"
DEATH™;57987756 said:
This made me laugh.
You also just...um, you just described SoulCalibur. Are you being ironic? Like, you realize pretty much every other fighting game out there has solved this problem, right?
Edit: Also, people REALLY need to stop bringing up T4. It was a long time ago. There are lots of ways to chance Tekken. It doesn't have to be that. The boogeyman has been expelled. You're safe now.
Master Thespian
Member
Here's a secret. People have always been that way. T3/TTT1 were nowhere near this hard for new and old players alike.DEATH™;57987756 said:
In the end, it doesn't matter that you guys like the way things are now. It's turning off more an more new consumers with every iteration and every franchise needs new consumers to continue to survive. It's not that hard.
It's also declining in popularity for the very same reason.
Remember that time when SF4 came out and millions of new players bought it, and lots of old people didn't like it, but it didn't matter since there were so many new players playing that old people went back to trolling or they played (and trolled) because so many people were playing?
Prepare yourselves, Tekken players.
Prepare yourselves, Tekken players.
Some of you guys are being a bit hard headed about this. I've ranted about this topic quite a bit now. When you play a lot of this game, you eventually learn enough about the game to realize exactly what it takes to get to the high level. It's at that point that you ask yourself the "is it worth it?" question and the answer is really that it is not. That is why, like Aris said in the ATP cast, all of the competitive players consider quitting at one point or another.
Fab temporarily quit more than one time in the past. Even GM who arguably puts the most time into this game out of anyone around here has talked about it.
Tekken has a lot of depth, but there's a lot of bullshit shallowness surrounding that depth that just gets in the way of everything for no reason. THIS is why I think they need to go back to the drawing board and figure things out.
Fab temporarily quit more than one time in the past. Even GM who arguably puts the most time into this game out of anyone around here has talked about it.
Tekken has a lot of depth, but there's a lot of bullshit shallowness surrounding that depth that just gets in the way of everything for no reason. THIS is why I think they need to go back to the drawing board and figure things out.
Nope... In Soul Calibur movement can be punished... This is what I'm saying... So, again, do the game need to have an 8 way run? Might as well give the characters moves that give varying range, Oh wait, I turned the game into Soul Calibur! People around the world want to buy Tekken because it's Tekken. If I want to play Soul Calibur, I'll buy Soul Calibur...
The problem is, most of you guys want Tekken to be the same as your games. "Tekken sucks because doing movement sucks", if you hate that, there's other games for you... Do you want DOA5 or VF to suddenly have 4 button limb commands, ginormous character numbers and complicated meta game? I don't think so... So do us a favor and stop complaining about Tekken because even if there's a reboot that you guys wanted all along, it's still gonna be "Tekken" and you still won't like it....
Your point got merit if that's the case but it isn't. Trust me when I say on other places TTT2 is striving... Go to Kor's Facebook group and Europeans are laughing at us Americans. They know they got no time complaining when they can train, and they have worse situations than us tourney wise... If the game is so hard right before and now that people don't wanna play it, a random guy in Europe won't have a handle of killerdoll and won't compete against JDCR for the greatest Armor King player in the world.
It's not gonna happen... A reboot comes and Jun and Kuni fans would spam Harada's twitter on why their characters get cut... Even right now, a obscure character named Shin Kamiya is being requested to come and be playable... A reboot right now will kill the franchise... Casual players don't care about gameplay, they care about what happens next in the story and making fanfics and ripping game models... There are more to lose than to gain... Make the game lower to appease the American FGC? tell me about that...
Things will get simpler when T7 comes, even when you don't change things much... Just making the game 1v1 will change the meta so much. People won't worry about meter management, TA!s and other things...
DEATH™;57991488 said:
Fraid not. I play pretty much every fighter out there. I don't want Tekken to be like SoulCalibur. I don't want to give myself fits learning how to move properly. I think it's a waste of my time. As manbig said, it's not worth the time and effort. You'd do well to stop making assumptions.
But you go on with this persecution complex you've got, thinking that everybody else is the bad guy out to get your poor, helpless Tekken. I can't even begin to respond to your post. It's just...wow. Varying range makes Tekken like SoulCalibur? What?
Master Thespian
Member
And yet, you all can't understand why TTT2 didn't sell as well as it could have. So while we're answering that question and the bigger question of what Namco should do to reverse that trend, you attack us and claim we hate Tekken.DEATH™;57991488 said:
Stahp.
EDIT:
SoulCalibur has shitty hitboxes and air control is a dumb mechanic.
Virtua Fighter not having ground hits makes me rage and the floats are the ugliest thing in fighting games.
Dead or Alive's lack of guaranteed punishment makes me want to break the disc.
Every game has it's share of things that hurt them and changing those things doesn't magically turn one series into another.
DEATH;57991488 said:
Pointing out a small group of players on KOR's facebook does not hold water when talking about the overall popularity of the game. Fact is, it's been slowly going down hill since T6 and is falling at a more rapid pace with Tag 2. This means that the argument that simply removing the tag system will fix everything also doesn't hold any water here.
Fraid not. I play pretty much every fighter out there. I don't want Tekken to be like SoulCalibur. I don't want to give myself fits learning how to move properly. I think it's a waste of my time. As manbig said, it's not worth the time and effort. You'd do well to stop making assumptions.
But you go on with this persecution complex you've got, thinking that everybody else is the bad guy out to get your poor, helpless Tekken. I can't even begin to respond to your post. It's just...wow.
Here, let me be objective again... if you want Tekken to have a reboot, what game aspects do you want to change??? It's simple to say that "Hey the game is too hard, reboot please!". I am trying to ask people that. Trim down the movelist? Cut characters? Remove rage? The problem is people are dandy about that until the next game was out and people realized what they want is not what they want at all...
Look, in Tekken 6, people complained about rage (it's a given), because it gives the newer players to have a shot, and the nerfed movement make it hard for veterans like him to maneuver around a raged opponent, and by that time Aris were complaining about that that he can't sleep on a guy especially when raged since one raged launcher can give you alot of hurt while bringing you to the wall which means the game is over by then even if he worked hard getting the life lead... People also complained about the game's pokes being underwhelming and discouraged, especially when you have guys like Steve or Bruce that can CH you to a world of pain, basically doing pokes have greater risks than reward... They also complained about the lack of command capture in training mode.
Now Tekken Tag 2 came along and gave Aris his wish plus more. He got a so robust training mode, wall stages we're bigger, wall carries are nerfed in general, and movement is buffed. Rage became a controllable factor being time-dependent and Tag-Assaultable. Poke damage is buffed that poking became a more viable way to defeat a opponent moreso than ever... Now he plays the game and realize this... He still can't sleep against his opponents more than ever! He made pokes viable that pressure became a intimidating factor in the game and now online warriors are bulldozing him with moves that he don't know and those moves became viable because of the poke damage!
Now when you trim the movesets, will that help? No! the current poke damage will stay absurd! and randomness will still be there, especially when you go to a 1v1 game where people like steve got fast pokes with CH capabilities... Remove his Peakaboo and Flicker stance? his problems will still be there plus you also made the character less fun...
This is why I get salty when people say "REBOOT!!!" since people don't explore the possibilities on what will happen when you change something, especially as drastic as that... Some people even shouts reboot even when they don't know what they really want to change... That's why I asked the newer people here some questions earlier... You gotta pinpoint what makes the game harder yet you still gotta keep the things that people love in your game... This is why I keep pointing at Tekken 4 because that was the lesson learned there. The changes there were so drastic that it just doesn't play "Tekken"... Those simple gameplay changes (i.e. Removing Backdashes to focus on more in-face fight that people supposedly "love" )made very drastic change in the meta-game that most players, even the novices, notice that it's not the game they love.. What makes me saltier is Namco is actually listening, and I don't want a random dude throwing suggestions and Namco takes it like a command...
P.S. What I'm saying here is it's always easy to make drastic game changes when the real problems aren't gonna be really addressed by a complete overhaul... This is why I kept saying the game is too early to have a reboot, especially when we're gonna go back to 1v1 which is gonna make the game a lot more simpler again... There's a lot of things to consider. America wants this yet Europe say this is fine, and some people love exploring the movelist and see "useless" moves to be gold while others just want to use as limited moves as possible. and so on and so forth... and maybe the problem isn't the gameplay itself but just a lack of single player modes and costumes...
I don't care about a reboot. Namco will keep styles around.
I would do exactly what they did with SC5:
Narrow down the roster (Though not as much)
focus on a movelist that matters
Fix movement. It's antiquated and I can tell it hasn't seriously been looked at in a long time. It's just adding new stuff on top of what was created in T3.
I wouldn't change anything like just frames or ewgfs. I LIKE that shit. I appreciate the execution Tekken requires for combos and moves. I don't appreciate the extra layer of bullshit I have to wade through in order to get to the creamy nougat center. I'm not asking to remove anything. I'm asking for modified controls. You want a KBDC? Fine. That's great, but not at the expense of making NORMAL movement negligible. The controls in Tekken need looking at. I shouldn't get accidental jumps and ducks. Yes, practice makes perfect and if I play enough, I won't, but on an INTUITIVE level, the commands should not overlap. Why does holding back make my character look like they're trudging through quicksand? Same thing with forward.
For sequels and expansions, they can then go on and add characters. Rosters are always going to suck when they're cut, but when I think about learning Tekken seriously, I look at the 50+ characters and just on the most basic of levels I think: I have to learn how to block 10-strings for all of those characters. That in itself will take time and doesn't even take into account the shit that matters. That is A LOT of time and effort for a new player. I'm not even a new player, I just haven't played Tekken seriously in forever (since T5). It's daunting as fuck, and sure having Kuni and Jun is great fanservice for people that played T2 15 years ago, but at some point you just have to realize you're never going to please everyone. Sometimes trying to hurts the people ends up hurting everybody.
I would do exactly what they did with SC5:
Narrow down the roster (Though not as much)
focus on a movelist that matters
Fix movement. It's antiquated and I can tell it hasn't seriously been looked at in a long time. It's just adding new stuff on top of what was created in T3.
I wouldn't change anything like just frames or ewgfs. I LIKE that shit. I appreciate the execution Tekken requires for combos and moves. I don't appreciate the extra layer of bullshit I have to wade through in order to get to the creamy nougat center. I'm not asking to remove anything. I'm asking for modified controls. You want a KBDC? Fine. That's great, but not at the expense of making NORMAL movement negligible. The controls in Tekken need looking at. I shouldn't get accidental jumps and ducks. Yes, practice makes perfect and if I play enough, I won't, but on an INTUITIVE level, the commands should not overlap. Why does holding back make my character look like they're trudging through quicksand? Same thing with forward.
For sequels and expansions, they can then go on and add characters. Rosters are always going to suck when they're cut, but when I think about learning Tekken seriously, I look at the 50+ characters and just on the most basic of levels I think: I have to learn how to block 10-strings for all of those characters. That in itself will take time and doesn't even take into account the shit that matters. That is A LOT of time and effort for a new player. I'm not even a new player, I just haven't played Tekken seriously in forever (since T5). It's daunting as fuck, and sure having Kuni and Jun is great fanservice for people that played T2 15 years ago, but at some point you just have to realize you're never going to please everyone. Sometimes trying to hurts the people ends up hurting everybody.
DEATH;57995494 said:
You think Aris gives a damn about the people he fights online? Come on man...
Your problem here is that you're making some very general statements to speak for a lot of people just based on what you read at places like here and facebook groups. The clear decline in the worldwide popularity of the game pretty much speaks for itself. If JDCR's explanation of the general attitude of the Korean scene towards the game is true (which evidence heavily points to that being the case), then they have to make some changes.
Reboot doesn't have to mean that it won't be Tekken. Like it or not, Street Fighter 4 is very much a Street Fighter game that was also a very significant reboot. I have full faith that the Tekken team can come up with something great that can get around all of the bullshit. The point is, that's totally on them. If I had all the answers on what they could do, I would probably be seeking a job there.
1. I don't expect them to ct the roster as it is now... What I do expect is for them to put other characters back into what they were before..
As pallete swaps... Forest Law can share one slot with Marshall... same thing with Angel/Devil Jin, Roger/Alex, Jack/P Jack, Xiaoyu/Miharu, Lee/Violet, Bears, Bobs, Michelle/Julia, Ogres, Junknown, and Capos... They were seperated before in tag 2 so people can make dream teams and help noobs who want to playtwo chars but don't have to learn 2 chars. Now count that, and you already freed up 13 slots already... You dont have to sacrifice gameplay and fan service...
2. Here's a problem...one example is AK and his b+4:1+2. Comparing it to f+2 1, both have same startup, block frames and range but f+2 1 got better damage, wallsplats and its easier to do than b+4: 1+2... So, in that logic, b+4:1+2 should be removed...
Here's the problem... b+4:1+2 IS THE FREAKING STUNNER FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. That is the move you want to hit Aris with for being the b**** he is now. That is the move that will make the noobs want to pick up AK. Those moves should stay along with Steve's Dempsey roll, King's Multis, Paul's Somersault, Miguel's unblockable etc.
But if in case, realize that Namco isn't just adding moves, they also remove other moves and some get replaced or reanimated. I.e. Steve's old ff+2, Kings old WS 2, irish whip, etc. They are aware of some fluff and they are being replaced in each game.
Also, there is a great illusion of having a big movesets when its just like All character's normals, throws, specials and supers are thrown into one list. Trimming down the movelist wont solve the problem, separating the movelist into attacks, 10strings, Stances and throws is. Look, King got the largest number of moves in the game, but people would unanimously say Lei got more moves than him.... Why is that? Because most of Kings moves in the movelist are just different animations of the same moves. He got generic throws 1+3 and 2+4, but it would be considered a different move when its a sidethrow and a backthrow.Same ting with groundthrows and reversals.... It's not the number of moves thats he problem, the organization of them is....
3. This is what I think the thing that fundamentally needs to change though... but at the same time you need a bit of continuation to how we previously move... i agree that movement is hard but I can't deny how it would mess things up If not implemented right... I initially though of adding a back-walking where you can hold b~B and the chars will walk backwards like a normal person (kinda like how Sidewalking works, having a initial SS before a SW). It will make it a easier alternative to KBD but not remove KBD completely... It will be interesting inTxSF, because SF chars need their fast walkspeeds...
@manbig what I'm saying is you don't have to make drastic changes, which most of the peopl are suggesting (unless I don't understand them properly). Look, just few simple tweaks from T6 and TTT2 made the game from manageable to Oh my this is super hard! Level. Aris said it in the podcast that those little things that was an extravagant details in T6 became the thing that separates JDCR from us scrubs. You can just make simple tweaks in the system and those things would be different again. You don't have to make widespread changes when small tweaks like reducing damage percentage off standing attacks. Or reducing the range of whiff punishers so people can afford more whiffed pokes... The real problem is people don't have any kind of leeway for mistakes... and that can be solved by small tweak which is also cheaper production wise compared to reimagining a new system (and they can focus their production budget on making a tutorial and a good story mode and prevent the problems SCV had) . I can try to calculate the right balance mathematically but Im not paid to do that. Its up to them, but its attainable...