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Tekken Tag Tournament 2 |OT| Awaiting the "Final Battle"

Jeez, there's some serious business being discussed right now. *ahem* I think I'm back in the Tekken groove enough to activate the online pass. I'd prefer to play with fellow gaffers because I'll get frustrated against online randos

Add me if you'd like, PSN: R-Signal

I'll gladly take a punch.
 

Ferrio

Banned
I know that feel bro. missing so many bounds cuz of this.

People told me its easier to press two buttons on stick but i cant confirm that. On pad you just gotta pratice and learn to buffer attack inputs. For example, lets say part of your combo is to press 2 and then df1+2. What you can do is press and hold 2 and then do df+1 as you are still holding 2.

Gotta play Tekken like this on controller

images


How I've played it on controller since 1.
 

Dereck

Member
Anything with two buttons, throws included. In the practice mode when I look at my buttons I see that if I'm aiming to hit 1+2, sometimes it'll show up as "1, 1+2" or "2, 1+2". It really FEELS like I'm hitting them at the same time, but a 1 to 2 frame fuck up just feels too strict.
Map 1+2 and 3+4 to the shoulder buttons.
 

CSX

Member
Doomshine you play Drag right?

How the hell do you do the fancy shit with f3~df??!! How do you cancel the crouch dash to extend hits?
 

CSX

Member
Gotta play Tekken like this on controller

images


How I've played it on controller since 1.

SOmetimes....i feel like im the only tekken player at a decent skill level that plays with thumbs.

I praticed enough so my thumbs will land perfectly between the two buttons that im going to press simultaneously

Only time i go into "claw" mode is for 2+3.

1+4 i put my thumb completely sideways.
 

Doomshine

Member
Doomshine you play Drag right?

How the hell do you do the fancy shit with f3~df??!! How do you cancel the crouch dash to extend hits?

Cancel the crouch dash with u. It takes some practice but you need to do it as soon as you see him crouch down.
 
Map 1+2 and 3+4 to the shoulder buttons.

I play on stick, and this is still possible, but I really don't like reaching way over to the right for those buttons. I'll give it a try though...

Doomshine you play Drag right?

How the hell do you do the fancy shit with f3~df??!! How do you cancel the crouch dash to extend hits?

I was practicing this the other night, you gotta tap Up real quick after the df, it's pretty tough. I just decided to settle for an easier ender of f3~df 1+2 (AND I DROP THAT TOO) :lol
 

GrayFoxPL

Member
SOmetimes....i feel like im the only tekken player at a decent skill level that plays with thumbs.

I praticed enough so my thumbs will land perfectly between the two buttons that im going to press simultaneously

Only time i go into "claw" mode is for 2+3.

1+4 i put my thumb completely sideways.

I'm thumbs too but 2 is on R1 since few years. Not only in Tekken, I switch anything that is on triangle to R1, much better input for combos.
 

Sayah

Member
Everything I didn't mention. Just look at some of the posts in this thread by new players or comments other people from other games make.

The 4 button layout, throw breaks, juggles extension, tag mechanics, etc. . . it doesn't help that the tutorial in the game explains jack shit.



What do other fighting games lack that Tekken is offering?

Maybe you missed this part?
Most fighters give you these options but the intensity of these options (a la mind games) varies with each game.

But still, to answer the question, each fighter has its own unique features. And Tekken, for instance, provides more options and requires more skill, more dedication and more time to learn than many other fighters.

And just because two games offer the same features doesn't mean they are equivalent as far as depth goes.
 

Sayah

Member
Terminology can very depending on community. As far as I understand juggle, it's extending a basic combo with OTGs, or relaunchers, etc. It's juggling by knocking them into the air again to prevent them from landing. But that's my definition. The actual UMVC3 community definition could be different.

In Tekken, a juggle to me would be bounds, walls, and tag assaults that allow you to extend the length of a single combo.

I guess definitions are subjective then, haha. If we're talking merely OTG's and relaunchers, then maybe juggles aren't necessary. But from my perspective, I always looked it as the whole combo going from LMH, launcher, to whatever else is done to get to the crazy 100+-hit combo.
 
I thought people hated Capcom for dumbing down their fighters...and yet there are complaints for Tekken being too hard?


I don't get it.

There's no harm in saying something isn't for you but I don't get why people feel as if games should cater to them. I don't ask FPS devs to make it so all my shots are homing because otherwise they are too hard for me.

I just don't play them. There are enough fighters to go around anyway. Tekken's learning curve and style of gameplay is unique to it. They all don't need to have the same basic playstyle. Not all 3d fighters should be the same...otherwise what's the point? DOA has it's crazy stages (and more....take that as you will...lol), VF has it's easy to do but crazy deep style with no bullshit, SC has it's weapon based combat and 8 way run (and now meter...which needs to be better...) and Tekken has it's juggle/bound combo or die son style.

and that's fine. Don't like it? then fine but don't ask for it to be just like another fighter or to change drastically because that kinda misses the point of the series.

People lose their shit when games make even the smallest changes (See DmC backlash), so even if it is shrinking why chase an audience that probably won't stay with you long anyway?

Tekken also has the advantage of still being an arcade series as well.

I'm not saying it's perfect but you change too much and it's not Tekken anymore.
 

Sayah

Member
I thought people hated Capcom for dumbing down their fighters...and yet there are complaints for Tekken being too hard?


I don't get it.

There's no harm in saying something isn't for you but I don't get why people feel as if games should cater to them. I don't ask FPS devs to make it so all my shots are homing because otherwise they are too hard for me.

I just don't play them. There are enough fighters to go around anyway. Tekken's learning curve and style of gameplay is unique to it. They all don't need to have the same basic playstyle. Not all 3d fighters should be the same...otherwise what's the point? DOA has it's crazy stages (and more....take that as you will...lol), VF has it's easy to do but crazy deep style with no bullshit, SC has it's weapon based combat and 8 way run (and now meter...which needs to be better...) and Tekken has it's juggle/bound combo or die son style.

and that's fine. Don't like it? then fine but don't ask for it to be just like another fighter or to change drastically because that kinda misses the point of the series.

People lose their shit when games make even the smallest changes (See DmC backlash), so even if it is shrinking why chase an audience that probably won't stay with you long anyway?

Tekken also has the advantage of still being an arcade series as well.

I'm not saying it's perfect but you change too much and it's not Tekken anymore.
I agree with this post.
 
and it's worth mentioning that I'm not even good at this game.

I don't even have any combos or nothing...but I'm having a ball because I don't expect to just pick it up and win.

I've been playing nothing but ghost battles and such. and it's fun.

i wonder if people pick up the game and go online expecting to just hit buttons and get a few wins..get trashed by a dude with combos for days and then call the game too damn hard.

and not even that

I played like 7 matches online too, lost everyone of them and most of the people I played didn't seem unbeatable. They weren't pulling off any crazy combos. They just dodged my hit all of the buttons attack and kept it moving. Meaning if in theory I figure out how to combo on a consistent basis, I could have won a match or two (no more than that tho...).

Tekken isn't a pick up and play type of game...it never has been. I think people played Tekken 3 against the computer thinking they were the shit and stopped playing the series (I did this due to not having a Ps2 for a while). So they jump on the hype train for this and expect to beat people who have been playing the series in arcades and at tournies and shit who know of the newer mechanics and expect to hold their own..and get their shit pushed back. Tekken was never easy, you just played against similar skill level (Tekken with soemone who doesn't have a clue is some fun shit lol) and a computer that could die to cheap stuff.

Sorry for ranting but It gets annoying with the sentiment that games that you don't like should be more like games you do like.

I mentioned FPSs, I'm playing Borderlands 2 and despite my shitty aim, I'm learning how to play and move.

Tekken will take more time than that, if that's time you don't have or want to expend on a goddam videogame, I get it. I'll probably never play Dark Souls. It's too hard for me (and I am a wimp) but I won't ask for From to make it easier for me or more colorful because I get that people enjoy that stuff.

Different strokes.
 

Dereck

Member
Tekken isn't a pick up and play type of game...it never has been. I think people played Tekken 3 against the computer thinking they were the shit and stopped playing the series (I did this due to not having a Ps2 for a while). So they jump on the hype train for this and expect to beat people who have been playing the series in arcades and at tournies and shit who know of the newer mechanics and expect to hold their own..and get their shit pushed back. Tekken was never easy, you just played against similar skill level (Tekken with soemone who doesn't have a clue is some fun shit lol) and a computer that could die to cheap stuff.
Yeah, yes, that.
 

Shouta

Member
God, I hate defense in this game, it just feels wonky as shit. I know I'm defending against the moves but still eat them.
 

DR2K

Banned
It's two different groups of people obviously

Obviously no one in between.

Maybe you missed this part?


But still, to answer the question, each fighter has its own unique features. And Tekken, for instance, provides more options and requires more skill, more dedication and more time to learn than many other fighters.

And just because two games offer the same features doesn't mean they are equivalent as far as depth goes.

I'm still waiting on specifics. When I look at high level Tekken I don't see anything different than high level DOA or VF. Whiff punishment, juggles, spacing, high low mix ups, throws, etc. . .
 

AAK

Member
Huh? You can definitely tech roll after AK's d/f+3 and when you land on your face. It just provides better oki.

Yeah, I just realized as I read you post. I'm so used to seeing none of the players in my local scene not tech roll it. But the point still stands that that's another move property during juggles that leads to more options not seen in other games.

I'm still waiting on specifics. When I look at high level Tekken I don't see anything different than high level DOA or VF. Whiff punishment, juggles, spacing, high low mix ups, throws, etc. . .

I gave you a couple of examples in Post 4876.
 

Oemenia

Banned
Do people still bitch about the 360 d-pad, the Slim controllers were decent and the new Transforming ones are the best in the market by far. Easy to do diagonals as well as circle.
 

AAK

Member
Besides the oki options, which Tekken does excel at in terms of options, everything else is in other fighters.

Tell me which other fighter has more options in their juggle system?

EDIT: And while we're at it, please do explain how other games have more options in movement as well please.
 

DR2K

Banned
Tell me which other fighter has more options in their juggle system?

From the ones you listed both DOA and VF have relaunchers, bounds, force techs, with wall carry, etc. . . depending on positioning. Then they each have their own nuances on top of that.

In DOA you can sidewalk in between strings or buffer in quick sidestep same as VF. Then it varies by character in terms of movement type, for example a character like Ayane has a built in "korean" back dash. Virtua fighter also allows for characters to hop.

I'm not saying Tekken lacks depth or anything, I just don't think it's offering more, it's just asking you to do more.
 

AAK

Member
You left out Tag Assault, where is that option in DOA/VF? And regardless, leaving tag mechanics out, you said other fighters excel at everything else except wakeup... I'm waiting to hear why and how you think so.

EDIT: Yes, those games have the same stepping options and backdashing, but what about the running options?
 

Deps

Member
I'm still very new to the game but Tekken definitely feels like it has more options. The movement, especially BDC, really opens up footsies and lets you create whiffs where in other games you can't. The oki has an insane number of options, and the juggle system is really deep, ending juggles early to create new tech traps, and so on. VF also has a ton of options, especially on defense with all the option selects like ETE, ECDGTE, EGTE, EFDGTE, fuzzy guard and all the other OS's. VF oki/footsies/combo system though, are all pretty simple.
 

DR2K

Banned
You left out Tag Assault, where is that option in DOA/VF? And regardless, leaving tag mechanics out, you said other fighters excel at everything else except wakeup... I'm waiting to hear why and how you think so.

EDIT: Yes, those games have the same stepping options and backdashing, but what about the running options?

DOA has a tag mechanic where a character can "assist" you.

All I said was that they have similar options. I did say Tekken exceled at the oki game in terms of options.

Running options differ from character to character. Some have running offensive(catch) holds, guard breaks, specific moves that can only be done in run or dash.

Oh ok, I understand what you mean better now. I had misinterpretted what you wrote and apologise profusely.

I do wonder though, DR2K, how would you improve the usefulness of throws? If we take damage into consideration and boost the throw damage, we are left with a big problem. There are many combos in the game that do a significant amount of damage to the enemy, this is a widely known aspect of Tekken. If we boost throw damage, how much do we boost it by? If we boost it ten/twenty percent for example, you run the risk of having some matches end in one big juggle, a throw and a few pokes. This would make the game even less welcoming surely as those who have mastered the combat system would be able to take advantage of this. This would be made even worse by the difficulty of breaking throws while online where lag (in theory anyway, the netcode in this is so good that it might not be too big of a problem) can reduce the amount of frames you have to break a throw and, in turn, make it much more difficult (especially when people new to the game are of course not going to be too adept at throw-breaking based upon the simple fact that they're new to the game).

So maybe we increase the amount of time to break a throw? Well this leaves another problem. If we increase this then the validity of throws may be entirely negated as people will be caught less regularly in throws which would significantly decrease their usefulness as rather than doing some damage on a consistent basis they would do slightly more damage on a less regular basis (which would likely only impact those new to the game). So then we have the option of lowering juggle damage while increasing poke damage further and this is a possibility I guess but if I recall Tekken Tag Tournament 2 had some form of change to juggle damage (I think it was the initial arcade release but this is only based upon reading an article that I can barely even recollect so this will admittedly need verification) which I believe was a reduction. This did not go down well as it changes the game style and increases the potential to simply button mash your way to victory. This still would not really help though because if you increase poke damage, lower juggle damage and increase throw damage you're putting an even bigger significance on low-frame attacks and mix-ups which still leaves it beginner unfriendly as a greater emphasis is put onto memorising each characters' mix-ups to allow you to dodge them better.

So then there is another option, give throws different properties to increase their usefulness, maybe a bound, vastly increase the space between you and your opponent after a throw, move them in a certain direction or launch them into the air. This would still make things complicated for new users as it adds even more properties that have to be learnt.

The point I'm trying to make, and I don't know how effectively I've done it, is that making throws "better/more effective" isn't particularly helpful as it doesn't state what way to make them better. By simply making them more effective you may damage the game's balance. Alternatively, as with later examples, you improve throws yet they still make the game difficult to learn as you just give more things to memorise.

Honestly though, I don't see the problem. To me, it makes sense that somebody who dedicates more time mastering the mechanics will be better than somebody who doesn't. Yes, as more things get added it means that a beginner will have to learn more things in a shorter time period than an experienced player but the experienced player still had to learn the same mechanics, the time to do that was just spread out over a longer time period.

CSX, I completely agree with you on the four limb system. To me, it makes it feel much more logically based when trying to perform attacks. Besides the obvious ones, if two hands are used, it's probably 1+2 with a movement. If two feet are utilised, 3+4 and then it's only a matter of trying to see what direction to input with them.

As far as throws are concerned I'd have throws become guaranteed on a blocking opponent, but if it catches them then it can be broken. I'd have grappler characters do more damage and be able to punish with throws(i.e make theirs faster)
 
All this talk about tekken 7... you guys realize the Tekken team has an insurmountably more difficult task ahead of them involving getting the fundamentals of street fighter gameplay to function in a 3d plane. I think about it in my free time and I shudder wondering what the game designers must be forced to conjure up considering time and budget.

Regardless, I'm open to whatever direction Namco has in store for the franchise... but if is going to be a drastic departure... it will take at least another decade of sequels from there to reach a level of refinement and quality analogous to the road from T5 to TTT2.

They should increase the distance of backdashing and add some sort of high jumping mechanic that allows you to do the usual SF crossups.
 
wouldn't that over power throws though?

It's then a 50/50 chance to guess right to break the throw. And damage is already crazy. Throws seem to have enough risk/reward to them as most grapplers aren't dependent on them and those with tons of throws have ways to putting them into combos as it is.

throws are fine in this game.
 
The root of this conversation today reminds me of something James Chen said a little while back. If you're trying to sell your game to new players in this day and age, complexity and depth can't be at the top of your list of selling points. To a newbie that just translates as "it's too hard", and an FG head who already mains a different game won't want to dedicate the time necessary to play it on the side. He wasn't talking about Tekken actually, but this discussion (and the other thread about finding training fun) made me remember that.

Of course, some people do want that added complexity, but it's a dwindling and potentially unsustianable number.
 
They should increase the distance of backdashing and add some sort of high jumping mechanic that allows you to do the usual SF crossups.

They should just make the hands and feet bigger.

I say, bigger back and forward dashes. Bigger push back on "powerless" moves. Higher jumps if you jump out of a dash animation or running. So if you get a knockdown with more space, you can dash and run and go for "cross ups".

Idk. Just think of stuff that creates more space.

I look forward to what their designers think up.
 

AAK

Member
DOA has a tag mechanic where a character can "assist" you.

All I said was that they have similar options. I did say Tekken exceled at the oki game in terms of options.

Running options differ from character to character. Some have running offensive(catch) holds, guard breaks, specific moves that can only be done in run or dash.

Those character specific options are in Tekken as well, but universally, Tekken has significantly more mechanics than any of the other fighters.

All I'm saying, is that Tekken does everything other fighters do and more so with triple the cast. Hence when you have so much content and options available within each, you do reach a level of depth that's unmatched by any other fighting game in the market.
 
The root of this conversation today reminds me of something James Chen said a little while back. If you're trying to sell your game to new players in this day and age, complexity and depth can't be at the top of your list of selling points. To a newbie that just translates as "it's too hard", and an FG head who already mains a different game won't want to dedicate the time necessary to play it on the side. He wasn't talking about Tekken actually, but this discussion (and the other thread about finding training fun) made me remember that.

Of course, some people do want that added complexity, but it's a dwindling and potentially unsustianable number.

and that sucks.

Then when a easier, friendlier Tekken comes by, the same people whining will bash it for being too easy or not like the old ones.

Can't win lol.
 

DR2K

Banned
wouldn't that over power throws though?

It's then a 50/50 chance to guess right to break the throw. And damage is already crazy. Throws seem to have enough risk/reward to them as most grapplers aren't dependent on them and those with tons of throws have ways to putting them into combos as it is.

throws are fine in this game.

It's not a 50/50, you can break a throw on reaction.

Those character specific options are in Tekken as well, but universally, Tekken has significantly more mechanics than any of the other fighters.

All I'm saying, is that Tekken does everything other fighters do and more so with triple the cast. Hence when you have so much content and options available within each, you do reach a level of depth that's unmatched by any other fighting game in the market.

Well if there are they aren't in high level play.
 
I don't think Tekken is too hard. I used to get my ass kicked on it, and still do at times. I just learn from those that beat me. I try a tactic, and if it gets punished, I stop using it. If somebody has a powerful mix up game, I try to mimic it. I love running into better players so I can pick up stuff. That's the fastest way to learn.
 

CPS2

Member
Those sample combos... some i'm finding really easy and some very hard. I thought they might all be easy but it must just be the first few characters i chose. Roger Jr is an absolute C word. I noticed devil Jin has 2x ewgf in his... I'm too used to the dp motion in every other fighter.
 
Those character specific options are in Tekken as well, but universally, Tekken has significantly more mechanics than any of the other fighters.

All I'm saying, is that Tekken does everything other fighters do and more so with triple the cast. Hence when you have so much content and options available within each, you do reach a level of depth that's unmatched by any other fighting game in the market.

I think Tekken's implementation of counter-hits is far better than any other fighter I've played.
 
Those sample combos... some i'm finding really easy and some very hard. I thought they might all be easy but it must just be the first few characters i chose. Roger Jr is an absolute C word. I noticed devil Jin has 2x ewgf in his... I'm too used to the dp motion in every other fighter.

I've never done an EWGF, even by accident. I've done JFSR multiple times in practice, but no EWGF. :( Shame too because I really like Kazuya.
 
I also feel like I'm the only person who can play all the fighters and enjoy them without comparing which one is better or deeper.

Because in the end, if you are having fun then what else matters? Play games for fun. Not because the internet says it's the best game.
 
I also feel like I'm the only person who can play all the fighters and enjoy them without comparing which one is better or deeper.

Because in the end, if you are having fun then what else matters? Play games for fun. Not because the internet says it's the best game.

fellow loser bro

add me so we can duel
 

Sayah

Member
Obviously no one in between.



I'm still waiting on specifics. When I look at high level Tekken I don't see anything different than high level DOA or VF. Whiff punishment, juggles, spacing, high low mix ups, throws, etc. . .

Stop being silly. As I already mentioned to you, just because VF has juggles and DoA has juggles and Tekken has juggles doesn't mean the high-level play in all three of the games looks the same or plays the same or requires the same skills. Same thing applies to spacing, movement, oki game and wakeups, throws, and high low mixups. It's very naive to assume that if all games have the same features, they all work the same and have the same high-level play requirements. Using just juggles as an example, you can see how, for instance, knowing the stages may be a big part of Tekken if a player wants to do wall carries and do maximum damage. Same thing when the player does early bounds to perform tech traps and confuse the opponent. The juggle system is creative. Along with this, add the other stuff AAK mentioned about juggles and you'll see that juggles in Tekken do not work the same way as DoA or VF.

Same sort of differentiation can be applied to the other stuff you listed that you are apparently assuming to be the same across the board for all three franchises.
 
idk, there are no more new FG IP's really. What's out is refined and deep it's own way.

Why does Tekken need to be declared the deepest or most high level.

VF, Tekken, Soul Calibur all have their quirks and I think are deep.

For me, SC has air control, using a different move in a juggle if they air control, tech traps, ring outs which goes into ring positioning and move selection depending where you are on the ring, wall splats, meter management, 8way run, the different moves from that. I find it very fun.

I find Tekken fun as well. I don't think it's king of all fighting games in regards to depth.
 

Sayah

Member
No stream today, I guess?
Jeez, there's some serious business being discussed right now. *ahem* I think I'm back in the Tekken groove enough to activate the online pass. I'd prefer to play with fellow gaffers because I'll get frustrated against online randos

Add me if you'd like, PSN: R-Signal

I'll gladly take a punch.
Check the OP and find the PSN neogaf member list. Add people and get fighting.
 
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